Author Topic: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)  (Read 42976 times)

Offline Cenphx

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2013, 03:14:32 AM »
Regarding the temporal echoes, Hollorr, you makea good point. Molly did say she felt them when she was visiting DR. So in the Little Chicago example, if the sort of time travel were used that caused the echoes, it might only be close to the site. Of course that would be Harry's lab in the six years or more before PG, so maybe Harry wouldve noticed them? But we dont know precisely what they would look like either...

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2013, 03:57:36 AM »
Regarding the temporal echoes, Hollorr, you makea good point. Molly did say she felt them when she was visiting DR. So in the Little Chicago example, if the sort of time travel were used that caused the echoes, it might only be close to the site. Of course that would be Harry's lab in the six years or more before PG, so maybe Harry wouldve noticed them? But we dont know precisely what they would look like either...

Remember, the things she felt on DR were a symptom of the attack, not the time-dilation.  It was the energy buildup, which she described as a steam in a boiler.  That same thing is said by Harry and Bob to be the flares of the temporal energy attack rippling back.  It's a combination of both the time distortion and the attack.  And it was only felt on DR, where both were taking place.

Even if there were echoes of some sort, if the bridge/pocket were formed on DR, that's where the echoes would be felt.  Since Harry never set foot on DR until years after PG, I don't think anyone would know.  But it would be interesting if there were some sort of time-dilation resonance between the two points (PG and the time a bridge were created).  That resonance may have a strange side affect, like maybe letting Harry get a minor feel for Intellectus on the island prior to actually bonding with it?  We can accept Anya-My-Mind-Has-Been-Screwed-With-Luccio's explanation of "it's your precognitive sight, stupid", or maybe it's a side-affect of a bridge between two times, one where Harry is bonded to the island, and one where he isn't?

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2013, 04:52:53 AM »
oh the bob the skull talking about stealing a car to explain to harry about what the gate keeper does and someone said that could be a JB clues about whats gonna happen...FH steals car and trys to run over PH to give him enough time to fix LC..anyway Bob the skull was from another poster.

nah, Future Harry's new car from CD seems big enough to run PG-Harry in the Beetle off the road.
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Offline matorade

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2013, 05:08:30 AM »
Here I have a problem when it comes to TTH fixing Little Chicago.  Bob clearly said Harry would have been toasted if he used it.  Since Bob missed the screw-up in the first place, then the question is how the hell can TTH come back when he was already blown away once he finally use Little Chicago in some point after PG events without any distraction.  I mean supposed Harry, in case, in some future spotted this screw-up before using it and then time-travelled to PG in later future and fixed LC beforehand, then won't it be like he has just erased his own timeline literally and that he can't come back to the future to pick up where he left behind?  Leaving him running around while an alternate Harry exists in the current Dresden universe, I guess that would be my exact thought if TTH theory did happened.

Ugh, I hate time paradox and slip theories...


EDIT: Sorry, had a long day and should have slapped my sleepyhead
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 11:20:16 AM by matorade »
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wizard nelson

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2013, 05:16:27 AM »
thats why its a time loop ;) to again reference terminator how did john send his dad back in time to father him if he hadn't done it yet? in that one particular time stream it ALWAYS happened and couldn't have happened any other way. this does not discount the idea of parallel divergence or them becoming paradox but this is what a novikov time loop is, a self contained time stream that exists because time travel was used to create it. i know, it doesn't answer your question directly but thats because until someone actually uses time  travel its all theory, there is no answer.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:18:04 AM by wizard nelson »

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2013, 05:22:42 AM »
I don't believe stable time loops are even possible in the df; from everything that's ever been said, the future at any point is only possible; not definite.

having a time loop would thus violate the magical rule of free will and the law of conservation of magic.

(when future harry goes back to fix LC, he voids any decisions any person could make until the point he leaves.. for example, Molly no longer had the choice of going to the council or not at the end of PG. its is now fated she will... Uriel will be ticked )
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wizard nelson

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2013, 05:25:38 AM »
oh god, don't complicate things by mentioning free will and time travel in the same post. my head might pop if i have to wrap it around that one. :'(
thats why he doesn't go around meddling with everything but works from behind the scenes. if he went back and messed with free will it becomes a divergent parallel instead of a loop. you have to effect a choice to screw with free will. time travel isn't possible at all then except we know it is or the WC wouldn't feel the need for a law on it. going back and effecting things at all effects free will. whose to say mortals aren't free to do that?( I think that was my point in the other thread that time travel and changing things requires a mortals touch)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:33:20 AM by wizard nelson »

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2013, 02:20:51 PM »
thats why its a time loop ;) to again reference terminator how did john send his dad back in time to father him if he hadn't done it yet? in that one particular time stream it ALWAYS happened and couldn't have happened any other way. this does not discount the idea of parallel divergence or them becoming paradox but this is what a novikov time loop is, a self contained time stream that exists because time travel was used to create it. i know, it doesn't answer your question directly but thats because until someone actually uses time  travel its all theory, there is no answer.

I guess either people aren't reading the thread to see that we've already discussed the paradox/time loop issue, or they're not understanding that using the Merlin Emrys Temporal Bridge Using a Pocket Dimension (METBUPD) means that there wouldn't have been a first time that Harry didn't fix it.

Am I really the only one that's seeing that possibility?  I know Duck doesn't like it because of the power requirements.  I don't want to rehash those points.  I'm just befuddled by people not getting what I'm saying.  This is when I need someone to translate what's in my head to the thread.  Someone summon aShorty.

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2013, 02:29:30 PM »
I guess either people aren't reading the thread to see that we've already discussed the paradox/time loop issue, or they're not understanding that using the Merlin Emrys Temporal Bridge Using a Pocket Dimension (METBUPD) means that there wouldn't have been a first time that Harry didn't fix it.

Am I really the only one that's seeing that possibility?  I know Duck doesn't like it because of the power requirements.  I don't want to rehash those points.  I'm just befuddled by people not getting what I'm saying.  This is when I need someone to translate what's in my head to the thread.  Someone summon aShorty.

I understand your logic, but its circular. Harry doesn't have to fix it because harry fixed it but doesn't have to fix it because he fixed it...

A- it violates free will
B- circular reasoning is inherently problematic
C- stable time loops can only exist in a deterministic universe

let's say I find a time machine. its just there. I walk in, learn how to use it, and  go back in time to the day before, leaving it there for me to find

does that mean the time machine was created by the time loop, and thus has no beginning and no end? Nobody made it, this just appeared?

problems-

conservation: of it was possible to do this, there would be no conservation of energy, which according to mother winter does exist

free will: what if the next me in the cycle decides to keep it and do something else?

random chance: what if the machine break mid loop?

temporal echo's: in the df, messing with time creates artifacts.  Just how screwed up did I just make the universe?



Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2013, 04:23:13 PM »
I understand your logic, but its circular. Harry doesn't have to fix it because harry fixed it but doesn't have to fix it because he fixed it...

I'm not seeing why this is a problem.

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A- it violates free will

No more than any other case of Harry doing something because it's the sort of thing he does and can be relied on to do.

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B- circular reasoning is inherently problematic

How so ? I can see taking closed-causal loops as problematic on axiomatic grounds, but if you are not a priori supposing it, i am not seeing an actual argument here.

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C- stable time loops can only exist in a deterministic universe

Not seeing your argument for this either. An individual stable time loop in a broader free-willed universe seems no more problematic to me than saying that, while in a free-willed universe it's possible for me to catch a pen falling off my desk, there can exist in that free-willed universe some specific instances where the pen falls off my desk and deterministically hits the floor.

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let's say I find a time machine. its just there. I walk in, learn how to use it, and  go back in time to the day before, leaving it there for me to find
does that mean the time machine was created by the time loop, and thus has no beginning and no end? Nobody made it, this just appeared?

Yep.

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conservation: of it was possible to do this, there would be no conservation of energy, which according to mother winter does exist

Not an issue.  You're not adding anything to the universe long-term.  Your time machine exists for one day in a closed loop.

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free will: what if the next me in the cycle decides to keep it and do something else?

What "next you" ?  There's only ever one you who makes one decision once.

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random chance: what if the machine break mid loop?

If it's there for you to find, it already hasn't broken.  That's like having problems with the bus that took you to work this morning being there to take you to work this morning because what if it had broken down yesterday ?

Quote
temporal echo's: in the df, messing with time creates artifacts.  Just how screwed up did I just make the universe?

Sfaict from CD, the echoes are of finite duration and extent and fade with distance from the event.  So a one-day loop where you're not doing much else does not seem to have much impact on anything.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 07:23:17 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
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Offline beetnemesis

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2013, 04:25:45 PM »
Ms Duck, those are valid arguments... that don't really have a place in this thread. The reason is, ALL time travel plots tend to have those problems.

I feel like we're getting bogged down in trying to guess what the physics of time travel in the Dresdenverse is.  Here's what we know:

1- There will very likely be a book that, in some way, deals with time travel (I believe the WoJ says something like, "Well, it's a rule, so you know Dresden is going to HAVE to break it in some way, right ? *wink*")

2- There are a number of obstacles/inconsistencies to overcome in order to fix Little Chicago.  To wit:

a) Harry's threshold
b) Not be noticed/or mentioned later by Bob the Skull
c) Not be noticed/mentioned by Thomas
d) knowledge and ability to fix LC

Now, I think b) is actually the key to this. Why? Because Bob is loyal only to Harry. Bob will tell Harry anything EXCEPT if he can be convinced that that knowledge will definitely bring him harm to Harry (See Thomas's short story, "Backup," where Thomas tells Bob about the Oblivion War and swears him to secrecy).

Has it ever been confirmed that Bob can see through a veil? It seems like he would be able to- he can "see" magic.

My point is that, it would be extremely difficult and unlikely for a mortal wizard to fix Little Chicago without being noticed by Bob. One, because of the threshold- maintaining a veil while working on LC seems... foolhardy.  Two, because no one, including Mab, knows Harry owns Bob. If someone, somehow, snuck into Harry's basement, they would feel no need to veil themselves (and again, it seems likely Bob could pierce a veil in any case).

So. With all that said, Time-Traveling Harry seems to be the most likely candidate.  It's pointless to get bogged down in stuff like "Is Harry powerful or skilled enough to do that?" because it doesn't matter- there are any number of plot devices Butcher could trot out to lend aid to Harry in those departments.  Uriel, Mab, the Gatekeeper, Odin, and more.

However, there isn't much Butcher can do about the facts I listed above.  Any solution will have to have some explanation for them.

So, logically, that leaves a bunch of superpowers (Mab, Odin, Etc)... or a time-traveling Harry.  Of said superpowers, it'd pretty much only make sense for Mab at that point in the story.

So, as it always seems these days, we're left with Mab or Time-Travelling Harry. 

(I'm assuming here that if anyone other than TTH did it, it would NOT be through time-travelling. Mostly because that would be kind of needlessly convoluted.  Imagine reading the last book in the series, and suddenly Mab says, "OK, before we go fight Outsiders, I'm just going to go back in time without you and fix Little Chicago." Not gonna happen. If time-travelling to fix LC happens, Harry will be involved.)

When confronted with the choice between Mab or TTH, I side with TTH... mostly because it would make for a more interesting story.  Would it really be that interesting or shocking if, in a few books, Mab says "Fool wizard, of course it was I who repaired your focal device. I deemed it... neccessary."  No. We the readers would just go, "Oh, I can kinda see how that makes sense," and then we'd continue on with the book.

However, if Harry was on some kind of epic time-travelling quest that spiraled through his history, and he was in the PG-era and had to find someone RIGHT NOW... it would be much cooler if he opened his door, talked his way past Thomas, went downstairs, fooled Bob (or, more likely, talked to him and then swore him to silence), repaired LC (which he could do since he already knew what was wrong), used it, and oh, by the way, took one of his reference books and put an old "Calvin and Hobbes" anthology in the gap where it would not be discovered for another year!



tl;dr Only Mab or TTH could have done it, and TTH would make for a much cooler story.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2013, 04:52:43 PM »
a) Harry's threshold
b) Not be noticed/or mentioned later by Bob the Skull
c) Not be noticed/mentioned by Thomas
d) knowledge and ability to fix LC

Now, I think b) is actually the key to this. Why? Because Bob is loyal only to Harry. Bob will tell Harry anything EXCEPT if he can be convinced that that knowledge will definitely bring him harm to Harry

The problem with this argument is that quite a lot of the time when Harry goes into the basement Bob is dormant and Harry has to actively wake him.  (Hence the "lazybones" and "sleepyhead" snark in the earlier books.)  So Bob being awake enough to be a wtchdog is not guaranteed.

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Two, because no one, including Mab, knows Harry owns Bob.

Harry and Bob assume this because nobody's come for Bob or tried to kill him. Nothing that I can see rules out Mab (for example) knowing perfectly well that Harry has Bob but thinking that Bob is an asset worth Harry having.

Thomas has a key to the wards.  So does Murphy.  Anyone who can either convince or compel Thomas or Murphy to let them in can get at LC.
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Offline Cenphx

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #87 on: February 13, 2013, 05:55:33 PM »
@Griffyn--son of a (expletive expletive expletive). You're right. About 2 seconds after I got the reasoning of your argument about the energy at DR being an interaction with its wards I forgot it when replying to Hollorr. Since I do not currently have dementia, my only excuse is that the temporal echoes thing from an altered timeline makes so much intuitive sense to me it creeps back in when it shouldnt. My bad.

Offline Cenphx

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #88 on: February 13, 2013, 06:02:29 PM »
@ beetnemesis -- re: the problem Bob presents for whomever fixed LC. Wyltok laid out a pretty good argument in another thread that Rashid got around Bob with foresight because he knew Harry would take him out of the apt.       Re: getting bogged down in classic time travel logic problems. I agree that usually this would be fruitless. But Jim has started giving us working examples of time travel-esque moments (merlin building DR, tme dilations by Maeve) and some rules (from Odin). I was hoping we might be able to apply some of what we now know about TDF version of time travel to our theories which rely on time travel, but it may be premature. We may not have enough of the picture yet

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2013, 06:17:31 PM »
all these were solved in either CD or GS:

a) Harry's threshold

-- gets outright lampshaded by cat sith
b) Not be noticed/or mentioned later by Bob the Skull
-- also lampshaded in cold days. Mab always knew bob was there; Harry notes this in CD
c) Not be noticed/mentioned by Thomas
-- she can veil. walk thru walls. turn into air. not seeing the problem ..
-- also lampshaded in GS and CD. Mab went into his apartments, multiple times, as part of doing Lea's Job. neither Harry no Thomas ever noticed
-- note her remaking his apartment in perfect detail in CD
-- also the Calvin and Hobbes book
d) knowledge and ability to fix LC
-- It's Mab?? That's like saying Godzilla doesn't have the knowledge and ability to step on a Yugo.  ;)


@Neuro- My point is that in a universe where free will does exist, every time you travel back in time it resets the clock- and now people have the options to make all new decisions. In a non deterministic universe, all new random events can occur.

I don't think a stable time loop is possible in the Dresden verse. which is ironic, as I suggested it years before anyone else here did, that I know of. But given the things Odin and Uriel have said, I now think I was very very wrong.

 
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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