Does this sound a death knell for the idea that Time Travel Harry fixed Little Chicago?
You're making the assumption that Future Dresden traveled to the past to change it, rather than Future Dresden traveled to the past to ensure everything happened the way it was meant to. Think Harry Potter and the Prisioner of Azkaban, where Potter makes the Stag Patronus that saves himself and Sirius from the Dementors.Ugh, this is why I LOATHE time travel. I am admittedly horrible at reasoning this out. But let me try...
If the situation here is like the one in Harry Potter, then the time travel is aligned with the temporal inertia, rather than against it, so there would be no temporal echoes in the past. Instead, the temporal echoes would occur near the time in the future where Dresden travels to the past, with the echoes being a result of the timeline changing if Dresden fails to do what he already did.
I thought the echo thing was unique to demon reach?Well, that description I put in the OP is pretty much word for word what Odin said to Harry at Mac's bar in Cold Days. It was definitely in the context of figuring out when the attack was going to happen at Demonreach, but I thought it was defining time travel generally, not a situation special or specific to the time travel sheninigans happening at DR. That was just my take on it though...
I thought the echo thing was unique to demon reach?
Problem
Merlin's power and skill >>>>>> Harry's
to the point im convinced Merlin was working for a cosmic level power when he did that; no mortal is capable of building a prison that can hold a titan.
your theory demands Harry gains godlike power. It always had. Im not ready to buy that yet.
Cold Days Incident
I'm one of the biggest TTH theory supporters around. At least, I talk about it the most. So understand that as I analyze your observation, I do so in a slightly biased fashion.
First, my interpretation of what caused the build-up is different from what yours is. You seem to think that the energy build-up felt on the island was due to someone messing with time. My interpretation was that it was a build-up of energy by the attack that had already commenced.
See, Maeve and Lily both hit DR with a lot of power within a time-dilation field. Harry and the Hunt were caught in the time-dilation field, and Odin Claus had to break them through it to get them there on time. Once there, they battled the Outsiders first, and then went after the Ladies.
The Ladies had a good amount of time to attack DR. Their attack was designed to hit DR not only in one place at one time, but at one place from multiple times. That's the other purpose of the time-dilation they cast; it allowed their attack to happen simultaneously with other times. That energy attack is what set off the build-up of energy felt by DR. The build-up wasn't from the explosion of the island, or the time-stream trying to be changed; it was from the attack. Bob himself showed a movie about it, where the attack was represented as a dissonance against the protection spells on the island. It was that dissonance build-up that caused the flares which were felt on the island.
Since there's no time-dilating attack in PG, there wouldn't have to be a build-up like the one we saw on DR.
Cold Days IncidentHmm...I guess when I was imagining Merlin creating DR, I picture it as there was one Merlin existing in one place which happened to be a joining of 5 different times, like he had folded time like a ribbon and the spot where the folds were held together was were he was standing when he worked the magic to create Demonreach. So it was one Merlin at five different points in time, but at the same time.
Proven Guilty Incident
I understand your dilemma with the time-travel theory. That if Harry travels back and fixes LC, but didn't fix it the first time, then we end up with a paradox/splinter universe, like Odin describes.
But the ANSWER has been provided in Cold Days! (Ta-Da!)
Ready for it?
Merlin didn't build the prison five times; he built it once at five times.
Harry doesn't travel back in time to fix LC; he creates a temporal joining between the two times, so that they occur together, just like Merlin did to create DR.
There was no first time when Harry didn't fix LC, or someone else did, because the first time the events of PG occur, Harry creates a temporal bridge with a future time, thus allowing it all to occur at the same time!
BOOM!!!! Mind blown.
Ah, but Odin himself in CD says that "bridging a temporal gap of any length is something utterly beyond the reach of any mortal practitioner acting alone."
Merlin is/was mortal. So he couldn't have done it alone. And Odin proves both knowledge of temporal bridges and practical use of temporal bridges in CD.
My bet is Odin helped Merlin, since Odin taught him to begin with, and Odin knows so much about DR. Team effort? I'd say so.
So who's to say at some future point, there isn't a situation that arises where Odin agrees that Harry needs to go back and 'bridge' the two separate times for something to happen?
Or Mab, for that matter. If Maeve and Lily can work together to create a temporal-distortion around DR, then Mab could probably arrange it.
But let’s talk about it for a second. You are saying the energy buildup which was going to cause the explosion Molly was talking to Harry when he first gets to Chicago is NOT due to someone futzing with time but is a result of the spell Maeve and Lily were performing, if I understand you correctly. But how is it that the energy buildup had already started before Harry even met with Molly? Remember Molly had already been talking to Lea about it, so not necessarily days or anything, but people were noticing the energy backlash definitely some time before that night at Demonreach. I noticed that you said their (Maeve/Lily’s) attack was happening simultaneously with other times. I could see that. But it couldn’t have been happening as early as when Molly noticed the energy building up, because didn’t Harry met with both Maeve and Lilly at the Botanical Gardens after that?
Hmm...I guess when I was imagining Merlin creating DR, I picture it as there was one Merlin existing in one place which happened to be a joining of 5 different times, like he had folded time like a ribbon and the spot where the folds were held together was were he was standing when he worked the magic to create Demonreach. So it was one Merlin at five different points in time, but at the same time.
But that doesn't work for the Little Chicago example, because even if you folded time to make the future and the time of Proven Guilty touch, there would be 2 Harrys in existence at the time LC was fixed, the one who knows it was being fixed and our Harry who had no idea.
sorry griff, I doubt Odin's that strong. we are talking white god level, there. ;)
a Titan could take out Odin or Mab by sneezing hard. Odin is in the category of 'can walk around fine on earth without causing so much as a temperature change' -- he nowhere near that level.
Problem
Merlin's power and skill >>>>>> Harry's
to the point im convinced Merlin was working for a cosmic level power when he did that; no mortal is capable of building a prison that can hold a titan.
your theory demands Harry gains godlike power. It always had. Im not ready to buy that yet.
Harry couldn't power up the first layer of wards on one stone which had many layers of wards on his best day according to bob
I was talking about when Demonreach explained through Bob how the island was made. I'm not at home so I can't get the exact quote.
I was talking about when Demonreach explained through Bob how the island was made. I'm not at home so I can't get the exact quote.I'm guessing that these are the quotes in question.
"They're powerful," he said. "I can tell you that much. But they're also complex. I mean, like, Molly on her best day could not come close to weaving together something this crazy. You on your best day could not sling around enough power to juice up one of the smallest stones. And that's just the first layer. I think there are more. Maybe a lot more. Uh, like hundreds."
"These," Bob said, "represent the original enchantments on the island. This is vastly simplified, of course, but the basic star-and-circle architecture is the same as the work you do, Harry."
He said the power he could match, but the complexity of the system was beyond even Bob.
I'm guessing that these are the quotes in question.
The time at which the attack commenced was the night of December 31st. From that place and time, Maeve and Lily created a time-distortion field. Their attack then branched out through time, attacking from multiple times. That's how Bob describes the attack early in CD. In doing so, it impacted the wards at DR, which then caused the ripples which everyone sensed.Ok, I think I'm pretty much with you. But if Maeve/Lily's time-dilation spell, which only slowed time down for a few seconds or a few minutes or distorted it right where they were casting, created enough feedback to echo for at least a day before the event in question, I still find it hard to believe that Merlin or Harry folding time wouldn't create any temporal disturbance at all.
Ok, I think I'm pretty much with you. But if Maeve/Lily's time-dilation spell, which only slowed time down for a few seconds or a few minutes or distorted it right where they were casting, created enough feedback to echo for at least a day before the event in question, I still find it hard to believe that Merlin or Harry folding time wouldn't create any temporal disturbance at all.
And I don't think the echoes from what Maeve and Lily were doing had anything to do with Demonreach's wards, mainly because Odin's description of the temporal echoes didn't specify that it would only occur at special places or special circumstances; the echoes seemed pretty universal.
its not just the prison you've got to consider:
- a prisons wall have to be strong enough to hold the prisoners. Some of them are likely Titans, or worse.
- the prison all has to be strong enough to contain their natures. If having someone of titan class (mother winter) on earth is enough to accidentally flatten the planet, how strong does a shield to contain that have to be?
- Merlin cast the spell that made the outer ward. I doubt he built the whole thing; for one point , DR itself is much older then the ward is.
This ridiculous level of power that the upper tier supernatural creatures possess raises an interesting question.
If the various upper tier supernatural creatures have to spend large amounts on Earth and throw down with various other similarly strong entities, what effects will it have on reality and Earth? That many creatures capable of rewriting the laws of reality throwing down cannot be good for it.
Odin said it best.
- “It is the only way,” Vadderung said. “If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well . . .”
“Seems like it would be bad,” I said.
“Not bad,” Vadderung said. “The end.”
I was thinking more about the BAT and the Outsiders attacking Earth when I made that statement, but I suppose those guys getting out (or being pointed at the Outsiders) would cause major problems for reality like Odin said.
If you say, well, Future Harry always was going to fix LC, so he is not changing the past, he is making it happen the way it was always supposed to, then there would be no such thing as changing the past because every action Future Person takes is always the action they would have taken and the past is never altered [/u]. Yet we know from Odin’s speech that such a thing is possible, though difficult.
sorry griff, I doubt Odin's that strong. we are talking white god level, there. ;)
The time at which the attack commenced was the night of December 31st. From that place and time, Maeve and Lily created a time-distortion field. Their attack then branched out through time, attacking from multiple times. That's how Bob describes the attack early in CD. In doing so, it impacted the wards at DR, which then caused the ripples which everyone sensed.
- a prisons wall have to be strong enough to hold the prisoners. Some of them are likely Titans, or worse.
- the prison all has to be strong enough to contain their natures. If having someone of titan class (mother winter) on earth is enough to accidentally flatten the planet, how strong does a shield to contain that have to be?
- Merlin cast the spell that made the outer ward. I doubt he built the whole thing; for one point , DR itself is much older then the ward is.
Please note, DR told Bob very diluted information, who then told Harry very diluted information, who then told US very diluted information.
and there is no reason to assume DR told anything close to the whole truth. And plenty to assume much of the island is on a need to know basis.
I remain to be convinced that what's needed here is brute strength rather than moderate strength plus significant skill and smarts.
The spells powering the actual construction of it hadn’t been, alone, too much stronger than some of the work I had done— but when they’d been interconnected with their counterparts across time, they’d fed upon one another, created a perfect resonance of energy that had become something infinitely greater than the sum of its parts.
Are we absolutely sure that by the end of CD every level of that attack on Demonreach has been countered ? That there aren't other components further in the past or future ?
I think what you and TCF are both elluding to is the fact that Harry and Bob were both overwealmed at the wards and enchantments they saw, but with the explanation of time adding to them, they're something reasonably possible. Still out of Harry's skill-range, but not far out of his power range.
The metaphor to come to mind here is Marcone's pit at the end of FM. Seems to me that the wall of that, being soft mud with no traction, would stop a loup-garou climibing out as easily as it stops Harry. Brute strength is again not the only way.
We see in TC that the skinwalker has a minor reality-warping effect; it is how Harry realises there's something to look at with his Sight, right at the beginning. We see DR containing that easily.
I don't suspect strong shields. I suspect constrant draining, into leylines, and possibly also into the NN.
An asserion which seems premature when we only have a lower bound for how far Merlin traveled through time.
@Gryffin612 -- ahh, I had completely forgotten Bob's depcition of that spell interacting with DR's wards. You're right. Thanks for including the quotes. @ neurovore -- re closed time travel loops and altering the past. I've never considered in much detail the paradoxes of time travel or how to resolve them, so im just muddling through here. In fact, I had to check whether closed time travel loop was the same as what I said about the idea you dont actually alter the past because whatever you do in the past is what you always did so nothing changes. Im not saying I subscribe to that theory, but isnt it by definiton mutually exclusive of being able to alter the past?
the problem is when you realize how strong the reality warping of even a single titan would be; the effect Is so much greater then a shaggy its not even funny. Mab, just by herself, caused near global climate change.
A Titan? eurk.
I dont see how you can drain that into the environment in any way worth while there. Be like trying to channel a flood with a silly straw
as to the WG, im saying things like him may have been involved. We know, for example, that its wasn't merlin who beat the titans and imprisoned them, it was the Greek gods.
seems a lot more likely Merlin was working for someone , to me
there is a major logic problem in saying 'Harry can time travel, because Merlin can do it.' .. kind of like saying 'the space shuttle can destroy planets, because the death star can'.. yea, sure, they are both space ships but we have a small problem of scale here...
i will remind you of the Novikov self-consistency principle of time travel. NOTHING is proven or disproven till its explained in a book.
I'm afraid that the Novikov self-consistency principle has been proven in the book to not apply to prophecy / foresight. Examples include:and at what point did i mention forsight? :o as you pointed out merlin already created a time loop ergo in the DV the principle is viable.
and at what point did i mention forsight? :o as you pointed out merlin already created a time loop ergo in the DV the principle is viable.
So no explanation as to how Merlin got TWG level help to create the prison? Or are you now thinking Merlin didn't create it at all, since we can't trust anything that's been said?
Whoops, you're right. I combined what you said in two separate topics. My most heartfelt apologies. Still, how can you say the self-consistency conjecture applies (which states that only time travel that does not change the past is possible) when Odin states that changing the past is possible, but just takes considerable more effort (and luck) than changing the future? The two principles seem to be mutually exclusive...not to me? either you loop time or you shift its direction? pretty sure merlin did both. created a loop in which he created DR and altered time by creating DR. the only thing this does is create parallels in which he never made DR and 'prime' in which he did. the only time travel mechanism i don't believe applies is paradox, for the same reason odin gives, we're still here. it seems a given warlocks used to muck with time pre-WC so i'd imagine 'paradox' would have happened if it were possible, or it did
not to me? either you loop time or you shift its direction? pretty sure merlin did both. created a loop in which he created DR and altered time by creating DR. the only thing this does is create parallels in which he never made DR and 'prime' in which he did. the only time travel mechanism i don't believe applies is paradox, for the same reason odin gives, we're still here. it seems a given warlocks used to muck with time pre-WC so i'd imagine 'paradox' would have happened if it were possible, or it did
The whole point of the loop/bridge time-travel concept proposed here is that there wouldn't be a time where it didn't happen.except in a parallel? honestly is it so out there? creating a loop in 1 time line would invariably create parallels in which it did NOT happen or happened without the time travel. but the loop would close in on itself creating the one self consistent timeline. do other people not see this?
From Uriel's perspective, time is not linear. Stand back far enough, and it's apparently wibbly wobbly. By creating a permanent temporal bridge, those 5 times are linked to occur at the same time the first time. There was no time he didn't make the prison.THAT IS A LOOP. he used time travel to create DR obviously? if there is no time he didn't create it then he always traveled through time and created it, novikov imbodied dude :o
BUT, saying it does, the issue always seems to be, what happened first? If Harry had to travel back to fix LC, then who fixed it the first time? Why didn't they fix it the second time? Did Harry do something that screwed up the other person's actions, and he had to fulfill it himself? Or did it not get fixed the first time? Thus, Harry would have died, so how did the reality where Harry didn't die come about?
I am entirely on for closed causal loop explanations of the form "Harry has to go back because he finds out he did go back", myself.although its virtually against my nature, i feel i must give you a virtual hug.... *hugs*
except in a parallel? honestly is it so out there? creating a loop in 1 time line would invariably create parallels in which it did NOT happen or happened without the time travel. but the loop would close in on itself creating the one self consistent timeline. do other people not see this? THAT IS A LOOP. he used time travel to create DR obviously? if there is no time he didn't create it then he always traveled through time and created it, novikov imbodied dude :o
The point of the bridge theory is that there isn't a time when the times weren't merged. They were always merged, because the fabric of time-space was manipulated so that those times occur together at that place.loop...
"Time Travel" usually involved a portal/gate/doorway that sends someone backwards or forwards.i think here is your problem. your limiting time travel to this and telling us this merging of time is different. a causual loop is merging a whole timestream, same idea applied to the whole thread. basically smoothing out the wrinkle that is your question. "who did it if harry hasn't done it yet."
oh... but if your saying merlin manipulated time and space to create a pocket dimension that exists in 5 times and none, then i agree with that. i wag merlin exists on DR outside of space and time(*shrug* similar has been done by other merlin characters) and this is how he kinda,sorta, didn't die but isn't around anymore.
ummm you ever read the merlin conspiracy? you might like it. your island sounds like romanov's island. different points in time and space all connected by the nexus that is his actual portion of land existing in its own timeframe.
The whole point of the loop/bridge time-travel concept proposed here is that there wouldn't be a time where it didn't happen.
From Uriel's perspective, time is not linear. Stand back far enough, and it's apparently wibbly wobbly. By creating a permanent temporal bridge, those 5 times are linked to occur at the same time the first time. There was no time he didn't make the prison.
Picture a piece of string. It's linear, as mortals see time. Now imagine that Merlin got help creating a loop, where two parts of the string overlap, like this:
(http://www.stringpage.com/blog/photos/weave01-20070826.jpg)
Where the string overlaps itself is two separate points of time. Now imagine a pin getting pushed through the string, bonding the two points together. That makes them permanently bound together. Only instead of just one loop for two points, there are 4 loops for 5 points of time.
The reason Ms Duck has an issue with it is because messing with time like that would seem to be a very high-level trick. She thinks that it would take a WG-level talent to do it.
But Merlin clearly did it, presumably with help. We can either assume that TWG helped, but if so, why did TWG both involving a mortal at all? Or we can assume that one or multiple lower-tier powers (Mab, Odin, Uriel) worked together to do it.
We know that the Ladies working together were able to channel their attack across multiple times. So the idea that there are time-travel capabilities among the powers isn't outrageous. By nature, Mab should be more powerful than Maeve in that aspect.
Again, the theory breaks down at why do it. There was clearly a major, reality-level need for Merlin to create the DR prison. If it's as difficult as Duck suspects, then it would require a reality-level need for Harry to go back. And I can't think of one.
But if it doesn't take as much power to create a single bridge, and there were a really-really-important-reason for him to go back, then Mab and others might work together to get it done. I still don't know why, though.
although its virtually against my nature, i feel i must give you a virtual hug.... *hugs*
couple of issues: you are assuming maeve and lilly created the time warp, and the weapons. I find that assumption dubious; Maeve was the bait, not the mastermind. She was standing at ground zero for crying out loud.
HHWx , who is in Mab's power level is to my mind a far more likely suspect.
second, your concept of time travel is more of the liberal rts type then the hard sci fi type; which works well for some worlds but not as well for Jim's. Conservation of energy exists; its not just the change you have to account for, its the sending the person back to make the change in the first place.
What Odin is saying the farther you send someone back, the more power it takes, and he's also saying its so dang expensive that even people like Mab don't do it- that's why she uses precog instead, where she looks into possible futures and makes changes in the now to make those futures more likely.
which is why Rashid and Mab are far more likely suspects; both can see the possible future, and both had access to the now that was required.
;)
@ neurovore -- re: having a universe in which both closed time travel loops and altering the past are possible even though they appear, to our ability to understand, mutually exclusive. The way I understand what you are saying, tell me if I am wrong, is kind of how light is both a wave and a particle, which I know to be true but cannot grasp how it is both at the same time.
Or thay schrodingers cat thing. Sometimes I have to accept that my mind cant make paradoxes fit together understandably and the aforementioned time travel paradox might be one. The problem is, this is a work of fiction, which in a lot of ways, has to be *more understandable* than the universe for a reader to follow the action and for the action to be believable. You could write a book where the in-unverse rules were the craziness of quantum particles, but it would be so foreign that it would hardly be storytelling, I would think.
But then why did Odin tell Harry about the temporal echoes from changing the past at all? If the echoes from Maeve and Lily at DR werent from them changing the past, then when did Odin give Harry that part of the explanation, which was both useless and wrong? I could see Odin giving Harry info he would also need for a different situation later on, but the way you've theorized time travel, none of the potential examples we have in the books are actually changing time, so no temporal echoes, and Odin's info again applies to nothing. I dont think Odin or Jim gave us the explanation of the way those echoes work not to have it apply somewhere in TDF.
I think JB was using that opportunity to establish the idea of parallel alternate timelines in the Dresdenverse. My guess is that someone will use time-travel to change something, or they already have, and JB is going to go the parallel-time-line route rather than the traditional time-travel route. I don't see JB doing both a TT-back story and a TT-parallel story in the remaining 6 books before the BAT. And since he's already shown enthusiasm for a Mirror Mirror story, the TT-back plot is probably out.
And I seriously doubt that Harry will time-travel back to PG to do anything, even if a TT-back plot were introduced. But my point is that he could, and it would explain some things. Pretty much all the other theories are easier, and infintely more likely. But that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.
Put simply, the TTH theory doesn't offer any solutions that can't be reached by other theories; it simply opens the door for another layer to the pre-existing story of PG, making it more complex.
well that part at least I agree with.
as to merlin, what if he didn't travel Back in time, but forwards, which in the df, is much easier?
what if hes 10,000 years old?
the possibility of ancient civilizations has been suggested before..
Not really. I am positing that a universe (real or fictional) could exist such that some modes of time travel, or behaviours while travelling in time, lead to a closed loop, and other modes of time travel, or behaviour while time-travelling lead to changing the past.Ahh, there. This makes sense. It seems exceedingly obvious now that you’ve said it, but it wasn’t at all obvious to me before. Not all time travel has to be the same kind of time travel. We could have Tardis-y time travel, and the ribbon time folding-y thing Griffyn612 mentioned and any number of other models, some of which could lead to the closed time loops, others possibly allowing the past to be rewritten. This latter version would be the one which Odin was talking about, and the only one, for sure, that we know about which causes temporal echoes. As a matter of fact, if we incorporate Ms Duck’s point that not every being engaging in time travel will have the same skill or power level, it could be that the differences in such is what results in the ability to change time versus getting stuck in a closed loop.
I think JB was using that opportunity to establish the idea of parallel alternate timelines in the Dresdenverse. My guess is that someone will use time-travel to change something, or they already have, and JB is going to go the parallel-time-line route rather than the traditional time-travel route. I don't see JB doing both a TT-back story and a TT-parallel story in the remaining 6 books before the BAT. And since he's already shown enthusiasm for a Mirror Mirror story, the TT-back plot is probably out.
And I seriously doubt that Harry will time-travel back to PG to do anything, even if a TT-back plot were introduced. But my point is that he could, and it would explain some things. Pretty much all the other theories are easier, and infintely more likely. But that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.
Put simply, the TTH theory doesn't offer any solutions that can't be reached by other theories; it simply opens the door for another layer to the pre-existing story of PG, making it more complex.
My assumption is that Merlin Emrys is/was a mortal wizard. Maybe he is/was ancient, and from Atlantis for all we know. One of the few fictions I read about Merlin was the Lawhead series, where Taliesin was his father, who was born on Atlantis. I don't know where he got that idea from.
But the issue remains that he managed to get all 5 times to occur at once. That's still some sort of time manipulation, which seems beyond your typical mortal practitioner.
As for Merlin being ancient in the Dresdenverse, I think his involvement in the Wouncil eliminates him being anything other than a mortal, right? So unless he's been hanging out in his own crystal cave on DR in a padded crystalline cell, it makes it hard for him to escape aging.
I think most obvious thing to suggest that it's possible to travel trough time even as a mortal is in the laws of magic. If it's impossible unless you are a god, and a strong one at that, the law is meaningless. Something I don't think it is.
Didn't read trough the whole thread so sorry if this was addressed earlier, but the CD energy response was Demonreach chargin in order to use Banefire. It was simply doing it ahead of time cause it was able to sense the incoming attack that would occur in the future.
My assumption is that Merlin Emrys is/was a mortal wizard. Maybe he is/was ancient, and from Atlantis for all we know. One of the few fictions I read about Merlin was the Lawhead series, where Taliesin was his father, who was born on Atlantis. I don't know where he got that idea from.
As for Merlin being ancient in the Dresdenverse, I think his involvement in the Wouncil eliminates him being anything other than a mortal, right?
the law prohibits swimming thru time, which includes travel to alternate nows, seeing the future, and trying to visit the future to alter the present as well as going back wards
the laws tend to be fairly specific , for example it does not say ' do not kill' it says ' do not kill mortals with magic'
Ahh, there. This makes sense. It seems exceedingly obvious now that you’ve said it, but it wasn’t at all obvious to me before. Not all time travel has to be the same kind of time travel. We could have Tardis-y time travel, and the ribbon time folding-y thing Griffyn612 mentioned and any number of other models, some of which could lead to the closed time loops, others possibly allowing the past to be rewritten. This latter version would be the one which Odin was talking about, and the only one, for sure, that we know about which causes temporal echoes. As a matter of fact, if we incorporate Ms Duck’s point that not every being engaging in time travel will have the same skill or power level, it could be that the differences in such is what results in the ability to change time versus getting stuck in a closed loop.Hmm I think it got the word I wanted to be bold in the quote but just in case " lack of temporal echoes means that we know Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago—the answer"
So to the original question I asked—whether the lack of temporal echoes means that we know Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago—the answer, in my opinion, is no, it does not prove anything because we do not yet know enough about time travel in TDF to know that temporal echoes occur in every situation or what type of time travel would be involved in that particular journey.
Oh yeah I think the timetravel is possible but it might require like 13 mages that From SF talks about to do a ritual13 is just the maximum number of practitioners that can cooperate on a ritual nothing to do with time travel itself. usually its weak practitioners that do this though 13 weaklings doth not time travel enable. its almost a given a godling must help. odin even says so.
Regarding the temporal echoes, Hollorr, you makea good point. Molly did say she felt them when she was visiting DR. So in the Little Chicago example, if the sort of time travel were used that caused the echoes, it might only be close to the site. Of course that would be Harry's lab in the six years or more before PG, so maybe Harry wouldve noticed them? But we dont know precisely what they would look like either...
oh the bob the skull talking about stealing a car to explain to harry about what the gate keeper does and someone said that could be a JB clues about whats gonna happen...FH steals car and trys to run over PH to give him enough time to fix LC..anyway Bob the skull was from another poster.
thats why its a time loop ;) to again reference terminator how did john send his dad back in time to father him if he hadn't done it yet? in that one particular time stream it ALWAYS happened and couldn't have happened any other way. this does not discount the idea of parallel divergence or them becoming paradox but this is what a novikov time loop is, a self contained time stream that exists because time travel was used to create it. i know, it doesn't answer your question directly but thats because until someone actually uses time travel its all theory, there is no answer.
I guess either people aren't reading the thread to see that we've already discussed the paradox/time loop issue, or they're not understanding that using the Merlin Emrys Temporal Bridge Using a Pocket Dimension (METBUPD) means that there wouldn't have been a first time that Harry didn't fix it.
Am I really the only one that's seeing that possibility? I know Duck doesn't like it because of the power requirements. I don't want to rehash those points. I'm just befuddled by people not getting what I'm saying. This is when I need someone to translate what's in my head to the thread. Someone summon aShorty.
I understand your logic, but its circular. Harry doesn't have to fix it because harry fixed it but doesn't have to fix it because he fixed it...
A- it violates free will
B- circular reasoning is inherently problematic
C- stable time loops can only exist in a deterministic universe
let's say I find a time machine. its just there. I walk in, learn how to use it, and go back in time to the day before, leaving it there for me to find
does that mean the time machine was created by the time loop, and thus has no beginning and no end? Nobody made it, this just appeared?
conservation: of it was possible to do this, there would be no conservation of energy, which according to mother winter does exist
free will: what if the next me in the cycle decides to keep it and do something else?
random chance: what if the machine break mid loop?
temporal echo's: in the df, messing with time creates artifacts. Just how screwed up did I just make the universe?
a) Harry's threshold
b) Not be noticed/or mentioned later by Bob the Skull
c) Not be noticed/mentioned by Thomas
d) knowledge and ability to fix LC
Now, I think b) is actually the key to this. Why? Because Bob is loyal only to Harry. Bob will tell Harry anything EXCEPT if he can be convinced that that knowledge will definitely bring him harm to Harry
Two, because no one, including Mab, knows Harry owns Bob.
@Griffyn--son of a (expletive expletive expletive). You're right. About 2 seconds after I got the reasoning of your argument about the energy at DR being an interaction with its wards I forgot it when replying to Hollorr. Since I do not currently have dementia, my only excuse is that the temporal echoes thing from an altered timeline makes so much intuitive sense to me it creeps back in when it shouldnt. My bad.Honestly, my comment was more towards of motorade, who I think read the OP and then replied with stuff we'd already covered. It made my head swim, since we're talking about similar stuff on two threads, and now we're repeating the same stuff within threads.
I understand your logic, but its circular. Harry doesn't have to fix it because harry fixed it but doesn't have to fix it because he fixed it...
Odin: Hey, Merl.
Merlin: I told you, don't call me that.
Odin: Okay Lin.
Merlin: <sigh> What?
Odin: You have to create a prison.
Merlin: I have to?
Odin: Yup.
Merlin: I don't have to do anything, you cooky Norse cyclops.
Odin: Okay.
Merlin: ... okay?
Odin: Yup. Okay.
Merlin: ... that's it?
Odin: Exactly.
Merlin: ... what?
Odin: If you don't want to do it, then that's it. That the End of it.
Merlin: End of what?
Odin: The end of Everything. You. Me. Earth. Time. Reality.
Merlin: Um... what?
Odin: Yeah, we needed that prison to be created millennia ago by you, so that bad guys could be imprisoned, so that reality could continue to exist.
Merlin: Oh.
Odin: But, since you won't, then you wouldn't have, so you haven't, so I guess everything's over.
Merlin: <looks around> ... But we're still here.
Odin: <looks around> Huh... I guess you're right.
Merlin: So what does that mean?
Odin: It means you're going to make the damn prison, Merl.
Merlin: <sigh> This is why I hate my life sometimes.
Odin: Great. How do you feel about crystals?
@Griffyn--son of a (expletive expletive expletive). You're right. About 2 seconds after I got the reasoning of your argument about the energy at DR being an interaction with its wards I forgot it when replying to Hollorr. Since I do not currently have dementia, my only excuse is that the temporal echoes thing from an altered timeline makes so much intuitive sense to me it creeps back in when it shouldnt. My bad.
@Neuro- My point is that in a universe where free will does exist, every time you travel back in time it resets the clock- and now people have the options to make all new decisions.
I'm still not seeing why it resets the clock except for the you who has travelled into the past and anyone you directly affect. That people can make free choices in their present doesn't mean that once that choice has been made it is subsequently fluid, at least by my reading of Odin's comment about temporal inertia. (Which in a universe with time-travel implies that the broad strokes of the future are not very mutable, save by focused and significant choice, but that's pretty much what Uriel's been implying when talking about most people not exercising free will very often.)
Right, merlin might live long enough to cast the spell 5 or 6 times, but isnt the problem tha Merlin did it 5 times *simulatenously*? So he couldnt have done it at 5 different points in his timeline. (im not even gonna try to touch the free will in a time travel world issue-but im reading along)
because it removes the choice of the people in the then now, for lack of a better term. when you get down to it, with enough time travel free will would become asymptotic to zero.
the fact that in the DF zillions of alternate universes exist implies to me that time is not static or deterministic, but fluid. I think that by going back, you create entire logic trees of alternate realities..
If any TTH did change LC, its not ours. its the one from an alternate future that may have been.
Why do they have to have choice in the then now ? Is not choice in the now noew enough ?
I took the recent WoJ as indicating that there's a branching tree of realities arising from every point of exercise of free will anyway.
If that was intended as metahumour at the "this statement floats in a void with no causal connection to anything preceding" level, I salute your subtletly. If not, I'll have to ask you to unpack your reasoning a bit more.
The whole point of the loop/bridge time-travel concept proposed here is that there wouldn't be a time where it didn't happen.Ok I've been away for a while and I just completed my read of this thread. I wish I was in on the conversation from the begining.
From Uriel's perspective, time is not linear. Stand back far enough, and it's apparently wibbly wobbly. By creating a permanent temporal bridge, those 5 times are linked to occur at the same time the first time. There was no time he didn't make the prison.
Picture a piece of string. It's linear, as mortals see time. Now imagine that Merlin got help creating a loop, where two parts of the string overlap, like this:
(http://www.stringpage.com/blog/photos/weave01-20070826.jpg)
Where the string overlaps itself is two separate points of time. Now imagine a pin getting pushed through the string, bonding the two points together. That makes them permanently bound together. Only instead of just one loop for two points, there are 4 loops for 5 points of time.
The reason Ms Duck has an issue with it is because messing with time like that would seem to be a very high-level trick. She thinks that it would take a WG-level talent to do it.
But Merlin clearly did it, presumably with help. We can either assume that TWG helped, but if so, why did TWG both involving a mortal at all? Or we can assume that one or multiple lower-tier powers (Mab, Odin, Uriel) worked together to do it.
We know that the Ladies working together were able to channel their attack across multiple times. So the idea that there are time-travel capabilities among the powers isn't outrageous. By nature, Mab should be more powerful than Maeve in that aspect.
Again, the theory breaks down at why do it. There was clearly a major, reality-level need for Merlin to create the DR prison. If it's as difficult as Duck suspects, then it would require a reality-level need for Harry to go back. And I can't think of one.
But if it doesn't take as much power to create a single bridge, and there were a really-really-important-reason for him to go back, then Mab and others might work together to get it done. I still don't know why, though.
because in a non deterministic reality, there is no 'past' or ;future' there is only the now, and 'possibilities'. When an object travels to Point B, they change that reality, even if only by their presence. At which point all the dice need to be rolled all over again.
mm ill try to unpack. I don't believe in a non deterministic universe actual time travel is possible; for example when your traveler gets into his machine at point 2013, and travels to 1961, he creates first two alternates futures:
one in which he did travel, and one in which he did not
and then two more alternate pasts...it goes exponential from there
I find the Time Travel Loop theory plausable, but unexplainable because I don't think in 5D. How do you explain height to a 2D being?
One of the hardest parts of this sort of discussion is that I can trivially think in four spatial dimensions and do five if I push it; it's very useful for complex database design. But finding good words for how that looks inside my head has been balking me for decades.
I can't help you much with high-dimensional topology - it's not my field, and I've not picked up the various tricks topologists use to get a grip on the subject - but when dealing with the geometry of high-dimensional (or infinite-dimensional) vector spaces such as R^n, there are plenty of ways to conceptualise these spaces that do not require visualising more than three dimensions directly. For instance, one can view a high-dimensional vector space as a state space for a system with many degrees of freedom. A megapixel image, for instance, is a point in a million-dimensional vector space; by varying the image, one can explore the space, and various subsets of this space correspond to various classes of images.
Using Tao's technic:
(http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y530/Louis_Sanna/dimensions_zps698e8961.png)
The first three cubes are the usual dimensions.
Then Gryffin suggests that time doesn't exist. He proposes two additional dimensions, represented by the two cubes on the second line.
Time is then a path we are forced to follow in those two dimensions. That path could loop on itself.
Hope that helps.
Post edited as my first version was incorrect.
For what its worth, I understand the theory, Im just not buying it :)
the idea that objects can create themselves bothers me, the free will bothers, the power requirements bothers me..
heck, zombies bother me.
time zombies.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/AllYouZombies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/AllYouZombies)
there, now you can all share my pain.
@Griffyn--son of a (expletive expletive expletive). You're right. About 2 seconds after I got the reasoning of your argument about the energy at DR being an interaction with its wards I forgot it when replying to Hollorr. Since I do not currently have dementia, my only excuse is that the temporal echoes thing from an altered timeline makes so much intuitive sense to me it creeps back in when it shouldnt. My bad.
AWWW thanks Griffyn...just when someone says good point..../cry....lol
Anyway both Ms.duck and a few people are hung up about the free will taken away by time traveling...okay there was this movie my grandmother has and I can't remeber the name...I will try to find the name of it, but the whole point of the movie is about a group of archaeology people of medieval times...they go back in time to go save the main toon father from death...but anyway at the very end of the movie, they are heading back to their time in the middle of the battle and 1 stays..he makes a choice to stay behind and it doesn't affect the past or future because it's already happen.....same thing if harry choose to go back in time because of some reason. Harry in the future makes an choice to go back..key point Harry could or won't go back in time at that time he could make a choice...He could for say no and then, well die if the TTH is true but he could say yes of his own free will...I Just don't see harry going back to just save himself...maybe someone else yes but not just going to save his own hide.
IF the TTH is true there must be alot more story then that.
or as someone said a few post ago, it could be a harry from another timeline/ is trying to save himself in another time...kind of like how the Chronicles of Nick series alot of people are saying is what is happening in the series so...anyway sorry for the long post.
Michael Crighton's Timeline?
no, in a stable time loop the event creates itself.
TT Harry fixed LC -> Harry Time travels - > TT harry fixes LC
and I don't believe that possible because it violates conservation :)
its often called the ontological paradox.
Ugh, I didn't like that movie. The book was decent, but nowhere near his best.
But you're still arguing that what Merlin did in the Dresdenverse is impossible in the Dresdenverse.
On a related note, my current thinking is that time in the Dresdenverse is a wheel. The only reason for thinking that is because of the use of FIVE points of time, like the five points of the pentacle used in both Merlin and Harry's magic. Bob showed a representation of Merlin appearing 5 times in linear fashion to cast the wards, but said that all of them were cast just once in the 5 times. I think the reason that the number is 5 is because they form a temporal pentacle. But to do that, time would have to be either a wheel, or a spiral.
Bob: He built it once. In five different times. All at the same time.--- later in the conversation----
Harry: Uh. He was in the same place, doing the same thing, in five different times at once?
Bob: Exactly.
Bob: Look, a mortal jail is built in three dimensions, right? Merlin built this one in four, and probably several more, though you can't really tell whether or not he built it in a given dimension until you go there and measure it.
--- later in the conversation----
Is it possible Merlin wasn't just in 3 or 4 dimensions when he built DR?
Not to completely confuse things, and I know there are a multitude of ideas on how many and in what fashion dimensions exist. Here are 3 spacial dimensions and 3 temporal dimensions, as I see them.
Here Directions
1a) Ahead
1b) Behind
2a) Aside
2b) Beside
3a) Above
3b) Below
Now Directions
A1) What was
A2) What will be
B1) What wasn't
B2) What won't be
C1) What couldn't be
C2) What can't be
I don't think he traveled in time at all
no, in a stable time loop the event creates itself.
TT Harry fixed LC -> Harry Time travels - > TT harry fixes LC
and I don't believe that possible because it violates conservation :)
its often called the ontological paradox.
It does create the ontological paradox, but does not the law of conservation of history as LC has already been fixed.
there is no law of conservation of history I am aware of.
Odin in CD.
TT Harry fixed LC -> Harry Time travels - > TT harry fixes LC. its often called the ontological paradox.ok... easily solved.
A predestination paradox is conceptually the opposite of a Grandfather Paradox. It is where something travels back in time and allows itself to travel back in time, where if it had not gone back in time it would not be able to travel back in time.harry goes back in time so he can go back in time, example-
A player builds a base to get ready to attack the enemy. Before they can do that the enemy attacks the base in the past destroying it. Before the timewaves reach the present the player chronoports their army at the base in the present back in time to defend the base. The base only continued to exist because units from its future version defended it and the units only continued to exist because they defended the base.continued-
the timeline is likely to fluctuateMISS DUCK i could kiss you! this explains perfectly the minor changes in details in the story like why morts hair and home changed. it was a timeline fluctuation brought on by a predestination loop :-* ;D
The way I understand what you are saying, tell me if I am wrong, is kind of how light is both a wave and a particle, which I know to be true but cannot grasp how it is both at the same time.
-continuation MISS DUCK i could kiss you! this explains perfectly the minor changes in details in the story like why morts hair and home changed. it was a timeline fluctuation brought on by a predestination loop :-* ;D
me explain by the fact that Harrys actually wrote the books (his biography at some time in the future) and may have made some mistakes. Probably because his note turned KFC extra crispy in changesroom of recollection. shaazam! its why he can usually write in the present tense. he's directly remembering his thoughts in magnified clarity.
Yeah, its the bit about the position being undefined until measured that bothers me. Heisenberg be damned. I like my particles to be somewhere whether im looking at them or not. :)Agreed.
I figured Lea fixed it. Her realm is right there in the Never Never.
Perhaps Mab then, as her proxy.
that may have been suggested once or twiceever think of redoing this with knowledge of
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.msg1452190.html#msg1452190 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32663.msg1452190.html#msg1452190)
;D
ever think of redoing this with knowledge of(click to show/hide)
In the DF, as far as we know, the other potential universes don't collapse- they continue to exist. That's why even someone who can see the future, like Mab, can't be 100% correct- there are two many possible future universes.
second, the idea that just because people face the exact same decision again they will make the exact same choice is probably a bit off too. Uriel says most people are predictable, but some aren't. In the zillions and zillions of decisions made in that time loop, all it would take would be a few key ones off to throw the loop out of loop.
frankly it all smacks of discworld's super strong androcentric principle, from which you can conclude the entire purpose of the universe was to supply me with a nice a sandwich and a beer.
Well, I think a universe dedicated to providing sandwiches and beer is something we can all get behind. :)
since the odds against the universe evolving the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve the way it did;
since the odds against the universe evolving intelligent life the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve intelligent life the way it did;
since the odds against the universe evolving me in particular the way it did are incalculable, one can conclude that its was the purpose of the universe to evolve me the way it did;
ergo, since i am eating a ham sandwich with extra honey mustard right now, one can conclude the entire purpose of the universe is to provide me with a ham sandwich.
The odds of anything that has already happened having happened are 100%/
now now Neuro, you wouldn't disagree with terry pratchet, would you?
(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)
So why is Parasite causing the same type of headaches as the ones Harry experienced when his mind was apparently Mabipulated? Specifically, the "pain in the temples", which are attributed to the Parasite in CD, but were previously described during his lapses (SmF blasting rod; TC LC).
:o Oooooooohhhh....
Maybe Mab isn't causing the headaches. Nor is her manipulation of his mind. When you think about it, Mab should be able to leave no trace of her manipulation, right?
But what if the headaches are the Parasite's attempts to draw his attention? What if it's Lash trying to point a neon sign at the parts of Harry's brain that Mab manipulated?
The first time, in regards to the blasting rod, Harry doesn't hear Michael say the words. His mind is prevented from even recognizing those words together. But then he has the shooting pain, and he remembers the words, and then their relationship to him.
The second time, Harry seems to have no recollection of LC. He sits and tries tracking spells in the circle in his lab. It's not until after he tells Molly that he hesitates after saying he has no idea what to do next that he has the shooting pain.
What if Lash was saying "Blasting rod, idjit!" and "Try LC, idjit!", and it came across as ice-picks-to-the-temples headaches.
according to SmF, the headaches are natural reactions to when someone changes a person's memories. If you recall, harry had his firsts et when mab took his blasting rod.
No, when Mab manipulated Harry in SmF, she froze his eyes and kissed his ear. That's presumably when she laid her memory compulsion on him. And it may have triggered Lash. What if the resurrection of Lash was partly -- accidentally -- induced by Mab's memory manipulations?
Then the headaches occur when her compulsion kicks in. Lash is trying to warn Harry, causing the headache.
b) Not be noticed/or mentioned later by Bob the Skull
-- also lampshaded in cold days. Mab always knew bob was there; Harry notes this in CD
Wait, I think I must have missed this. Where does it say Mab always knew Bob was there?
The first time I met him, he asked me what the secret of my sexual success was. That kind of disinclined me to excessive reference.
Wat
Sorry, that should be "reverence", not "reference".
No, I mean...THE Terry Pratchett, the creator of the discworld books... asked you what the secret of your sexu-I mean. Wat
according to SmF, the headaches are natural reactions to when someone changes a person's memories. If you recall, harry had his firsts et when mab took his blasting rod.Actually, as I've been rereading through the series, I've been compiling a headache journal for Harry.
Does Vadderung telling Harry that a mortal wizard can't possibly draw enough power to go back in time have any play in the conversation?
Actually, as I've been rereading through the series, I've been compiling a headache journal for Harry.
The first time in the series he complains about a headache not related to an injury is in Fool Moon.
However, there's another series of headaches that happen where Harry has a headache, and then does something uncharacteristic. It's most obvious and frequent in Cold Days, but it's also happened in the series for some time, and at least one such occurrence happens in Summer Knight.
He knew me online, some time ago. Different world, different alias, but a couple of decades ago there were Pratchett fan communities that had some similarities to this here forum in terms of groups of cool people getting to know each other through a common interest; except largely UK-centric, so quite a bit easier to meet each other in person also. As for the rest, well, I got a fortune cookie this weekend saying people find it difficult to resist my persuasive manner. *waggles eyebrows*
If I ever do publish fiction of my own, I intend to see whether I can get that quote on the back (along with Steve Brust calling me cute and JB's "dear god are you a CIA analyst or something").
there's one specific type of headache that occurs first in SmF, however:However, we have excellent proof that the "Parasite" has been causing headaches, and that it's separate from Mab, from both Ghost Story and Cold Days.
the two piercing points of cold, like a pair of icicles shoved into his brain.
occurs in SmF (in relation to Mab and the rod), In TC (when harry is about to get mouse to lead him to Thomas)(also with the missing LC) and again in CD.
its like a giant 'Mab was here' sign.
Actually, as I've been rereading through the series, I've been compiling a headache journal for Harry.
The first time in the series he complains about a headache not related to an injury is in Fool Moon.
However, there's another series of headaches that happen where Harry has a headache, and then does something uncharacteristic. It's most obvious and frequent in Cold Days, but it's also happened in the series for some time, and at least one such occurrence happens in Summer Knight.
However, we have excellent proof that the "Parasite" has been causing headaches, and that it's separate from Mab, from both Ghost Story and Cold Days.
So, while I'm not saying some didn't come from Mab's mind warp, I'm doubting all of them did.
Also, there's a lot more than headaches that come from someone messing with your mind, and we have plenty of proof of that from the series starting at Proven Guilty.
we know Mab promised to stop messing with Harry's head in GS
we know one headache was caused by Mab
we know one was caused by the parasite
we know Mab and the parasite made a deal
we know Mab promised to stop messing with Harry's head in GS
what we don't know is what caused the incidents in TC
Where in the book did this happen? I don't recall this happening.In the final scene of GS, Harry says she can't screw with his head. Technically, she never acknowledges that. So its debatable whether she agreed to it or not.
In the final scene of GS, Harry says she can't screw with his head. Technically, she never acknowledges that. So its debatable whether she agreed to it or not.
I don't doubt that she may have coerced Lash (assuming that's the parasite, insert your own name if you believe otherwise) to react to a few specific things re: mind control, but I really doubt Mab's actively screwing with his head these days, agreement or not. She put a lot of work into getting Harry because he's Harry. The end of CD proves that. I think any other mortal who pulled a stunt like Harry did at the very end with her would be wishing they were dead right now. She wants Harry Dresden. Not some patchwork mental zombie version of him.
Her manipulation re: the blasting rod could have been solved by a conversation with him instead, maybe, but her reasons were totally sound.
What things does she need to hide from him these days?
Which headache do we know was Mab's fault? Are you referring to the one at the end of SmF, after she's given his blasting rod back? Because that was caused by hearing her voice when she was angry.
In the final scene of GS, Harry says she can't screw with his head. Technically, she never acknowledges that. So its debatable whether she agreed to it or not.
the one where he tries to think about the rod but can't
I mean, it's not like we have evidence that the Fae can steal memories from someone with a kiss.
::) (completely ignores Lea doing the exact same thing to Susan in GP)
And indeed, they can't; those memories were still right there when Harry unglamoured them.That might of been a special case since they were tied to the soul gaze they had shared.
And indeed, they can't; those memories were still right there when Harry unglamoured them.
yall avoiding the point at the end where Mab admits she took his rod, ya know.I don't think I'll forget any time Mab takes Harry's rod ;)
and Harry's memories returned when Michael did his lay on hands trickWe know mortal magic causes all sorts of problems with the person's head. both with the victim and the caster. However, the Fae are able to remove memories and affect anyone within their court or to who they've made a bargain. It's entirely possible that they can do this without causing the same harm to either the victim or themselves. We don't see Fix having headaches because of the compulsion he's under, and we don't see Susan having a constant headache when she's had memories removed.
yall avoiding the point at the end where Mab admits she took his rod, ya know.
We know mortal magic causes all sorts of problems with the person's head. both with the victim and the caster. However, the Fae are able to remove memories and affect anyone within their court or to who they've made a bargain. It's entirely possible that they can do this without causing the same harm to either the victim or themselves. We don't see Fix having headaches because of the compulsion he's under, and we don't see Susan having a constant headache when she's had memories removed.
We don't see Fix having headaches because of the compulsion he's under, and we don't see Susan having a constant headache when she's had memories removed.What compulsion is Fix under? And the majority of the time Susan's memories were removed, she was off screen.
What compulsion is Fix under? And the majority of the time Susan's memories were removed, she was off screen.
When he and Lily couldn't give Harry any direct aid or information in Proven Guilty.Right, then I call apples and oranges. A cumpulsion not to talk to Harry about a topic isn't the same as removing a memory, or least doesn't have to be.
Right, then I call apples and oranges. A cumpulsion not to talk to Harry about a topic isn't the same as removing a memory, or least doesn't have to be.
I'm not seeing that we have a single example of memories actually being removed rather than masked.I'll go along with that. Not saying that it isn't possible (I believe it is), but I do agree that we don't seem to have an example.
Right, then I call apples and oranges. A cumpulsion not to talk to Harry about a topic isn't the same as removing a memory, or least doesn't have to be.Molly put a compulsion on her friends using fear and drove one of them completely insane, and caused the other a huge amount of psychic problems. Compulsions aren't nice stuff when mortals do it. Fae seem to just do magic better.
This is also comparing a teenager with no magical training to sidhe with centuries or more of magical experience.Like comparing apple seeds to apple trees :)
Don't forget that the guy who was driven insane was done so, not just because of the mindwhammie, but also because Molly wanted to punish him.Both the friends were going crazy. Boyfriend was going crazy with no possible return trip because of the subconcious push by Molly.