Author Topic: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)  (Read 43576 times)

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2013, 06:54:31 PM »
couple of issues: you are assuming maeve and lilly created the time warp, and the weapons. I find that assumption dubious; Maeve was the bait, not the mastermind. She was standing at ground zero for crying out loud.

HHWx , who is in Mab's power level is to my mind a far more likely suspect.

second, your concept of time travel is more of the liberal rts type then the hard sci fi type; which works well for some worlds but not as well for Jim's. Conservation of energy exists; its not just the change you have to account for, its the sending the person back to make the change in the first place.

What Odin is saying the farther you send someone back, the more power it takes, and he's also saying its so dang expensive that even people like Mab don't do it- that's why she uses precog instead, where she looks into possible futures and makes changes in the now to make those futures more likely.

which is why Rashid and Mab are far more likely suspects; both can see the possible future, and both had access to the now that was required.

 ;)

Now you're just being contrary.

First, I'm not just assuming Maeve and Lily created the time warp.  Maeve created a time-dilation field in PG, when working with Lily.  Then it occurs again in CD, when Maeve and Lily are working together to attack DR across time.  When Harry asks who could have done it, Odin Claus says that Harry has encountered this before.  Harry then replies that it's one of the Queens, or someone on their level.  All of that works together.  Or... we can assume that one of the Walkers, who haven't shown any time-dilation ability, can do it as well.  Which is a more reasonable assumption?

Second, I'll admit I'm not as up to snuff on the science fiction protocols on time-travel.  But we've seen at least 4 instances of time manipulation.  One is mostly mental (Lash in WN), two are distortions (Maeve-Lily in PG/CD), and Uriel being all anti-linear in GS.  There was no apparent cost to Uriel's stepping out of linear time in GS; at his level, the power required probably is negligible. 

So far, you haven't provided anything about Merlin's time manipulation to create the prison.  All you've said is that it isn't possible.  But since it clearly happened, it must be possible, at least in the Dresdenverse.  The Erlking himself admits in CD that time "is a massive force, all but beyond even our control."  But by Odin's definition, the high energy requirement is to CHANGE the past.  What I'm proposing isn't CHANGING the past; it's fulfilling what will be because it was always meant to be.  Someone had a plan for the prison, and Merlin was the tool (as you like to look at it).  Merlin cast the wards, but someone else was probably involved in the time aspects of the creation.

In the argument for TTH, the proposal is that Harry could travel back in time by using a time-nexus-bridge-within-a-pocket-dimension on DR.  For that argument, it already happened because the two times are the same, allowing him to go back.  Therefore there wouldn't need to be a huge expenditure to CHANGE the past.  There would merely be the expenditure to create the time-nexus-bridge-within-a-pocket-dimension to begin with.  And since it's happened before, in the Dresdenverse, it could happen again, if the NEED were great enough.

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2013, 07:19:20 PM »
But then why did Odin tell Harry about the temporal echoes from changing the past at all? If the echoes from Maeve and Lily at DR werent from them changing the past, then when did Odin give Harry that part of the explanation, which was both useless and wrong? I could see Odin giving Harry info he would also need for a different situation later on, but the way you've theorized time travel, none of the potential examples we have in the books are actually changing time, so no temporal echoes, and Odin's info again applies to nothing. I dont think Odin or Jim gave us the explanation of the way those echoes work not to have it apply somewhere in TDF.

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2013, 07:28:38 PM »
@ neurovore -- re: having a universe in which both closed time travel loops and altering the past are possible even though they appear, to our ability to understand, mutually exclusive. The way I understand what you are saying, tell me if I am wrong, is kind of how light is both a wave and a particle, which I know to be true but cannot grasp how it is both at the same time. Or thay schrodingers cat thing. Sometimes I have to accept that my mind cant make paradoxes fit together understandably and the aforementioned time travel paradox might be one. The problem is, this is a work of fiction, which in a lot of ways, has to be *more understandable* than the universe for a reader to follow the action and for the action to be believable. You could write a book where the in-unverse rules were the craziness of quantum particles, but it would be so foreign that it would hardly be storytelling, I would think.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2013, 08:32:43 PM »
@ neurovore -- re: having a universe in which both closed time travel loops and altering the past are possible even though they appear, to our ability to understand, mutually exclusive. The way I understand what you are saying, tell me if I am wrong, is kind of how light is both a wave and a particle, which I know to be true but cannot grasp how it is both at the same time.

Not really.  I am positing that a universe (real or fictional) could exist such that some modes of time travel, or behaviours while travelling in time, lead to a closed loop, and other modes of time travel, or behaviour while time-travelling lead to changing the past.

Quote
Or thay schrodingers cat thing. Sometimes I have to accept that my mind cant make paradoxes fit together understandably and the aforementioned time travel paradox might be one. The problem is, this is a work of fiction, which in a lot of ways, has to be *more understandable* than the universe for a reader to follow the action and for the action to be believable. You could write a book where the in-unverse rules were the craziness of quantum particles, but it would be so foreign that it would hardly be storytelling, I would think.

I am pretty sure Greg Egan has done exactly that, fwiw, in several short stories and the novel Quarantine, and while they are fairly intellectual stories they still work.  I'd also note that Homestuck appears to be successful for of the order of a million readers, with a plot that has both closed-loop time-travel and alternate-world versions happening to an extent to make a Doctor Who season finale look like a game of tic-tac-toe, so it's possible for a good storyteller to make very complex time-travel work in a popular-fiction mode (even one whose primary audience is young teens), and Jim's definitely a good storyteller in a popular-fiction mode.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 08:37:13 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2013, 08:44:15 PM »
But then why did Odin tell Harry about the temporal echoes from changing the past at all? If the echoes from Maeve and Lily at DR werent from them changing the past, then when did Odin give Harry that part of the explanation, which was both useless and wrong? I could see Odin giving Harry info he would also need for a different situation later on, but the way you've theorized time travel, none of the potential examples we have in the books are actually changing time, so no temporal echoes, and Odin's info again applies to nothing. I dont think Odin or Jim gave us the explanation of the way those echoes work not to have it apply somewhere in TDF.

I think JB was using that opportunity to establish the idea of parallel alternate timelines in the Dresdenverse.  My guess is that someone will use time-travel to change something, or they already have, and JB is going to go the parallel-time-line route rather than the traditional time-travel route.  I don't see JB doing both a TT-back story and a TT-parallel story in the remaining 6 books before the BAT.  And since he's already shown enthusiasm for a Mirror Mirror story, the TT-back plot is probably out.

And I seriously doubt that Harry will time-travel back to PG to do anything, even if a TT-back plot were introduced.  But my point is that he could, and it would explain some things.  Pretty much all the other theories are easier, and infintely more likely.  But that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.

Put simply, the TTH theory doesn't offer any solutions that can't be reached by other theories; it simply opens the door for another layer to the pre-existing story of PG, making it more complex.

Offline Ms Duck

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 26818
  • Duck of The Black Court
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2013, 09:21:17 PM »
I think JB was using that opportunity to establish the idea of parallel alternate timelines in the Dresdenverse.  My guess is that someone will use time-travel to change something, or they already have, and JB is going to go the parallel-time-line route rather than the traditional time-travel route.  I don't see JB doing both a TT-back story and a TT-parallel story in the remaining 6 books before the BAT.  And since he's already shown enthusiasm for a Mirror Mirror story, the TT-back plot is probably out.

And I seriously doubt that Harry will time-travel back to PG to do anything, even if a TT-back plot were introduced.  But my point is that he could, and it would explain some things.  Pretty much all the other theories are easier, and infintely more likely.  But that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.

Put simply, the TTH theory doesn't offer any solutions that can't be reached by other theories; it simply opens the door for another layer to the pre-existing story of PG, making it more complex.

well that part at least I agree with.

as to merlin, what if he didn't travel Back in time, but forwards, which in the df, is much easier?

what if hes 10,000 years old?

the possibility of ancient civilizations has been suggested before..

Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2013, 09:47:11 PM »
well that part at least I agree with.

as to merlin, what if he didn't travel Back in time, but forwards, which in the df, is much easier?

what if hes 10,000 years old?

the possibility of ancient civilizations has been suggested before..

My assumption is that Merlin Emrys is/was a mortal wizard.  Maybe he is/was ancient, and from Atlantis for all we know.  One of the few fictions I read about Merlin was the Lawhead series, where Taliesin was his father, who was born on Atlantis.  I don't know where he got that idea from.

But the issue remains that he managed to get all 5 times to occur at once.  That's still some sort of time manipulation, which seems beyond your typical mortal practitioner.

As for Merlin being ancient in the Dresdenverse, I think his involvement in the Wouncil eliminates him being anything other than a mortal, right?  So unless he's been hanging out in his own crystal cave on DR in a padded crystalline cell, it makes it hard for him to escape aging.

Offline Cenphx

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1118
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2013, 09:57:18 PM »
Not really.  I am positing that a universe (real or fictional) could exist such that some modes of time travel, or behaviours while travelling in time, lead to a closed loop, and other modes of time travel, or behaviour while time-travelling lead to changing the past.

 
Ahh, there. This makes sense. It seems exceedingly obvious now that you’ve said it, but it wasn’t at all obvious to me before. Not all time travel has to be the same kind of time travel. We could have Tardis-y time travel, and the ribbon time folding-y thing Griffyn612 mentioned and any number of other models, some of which could lead to the closed time loops, others possibly allowing the past to be rewritten. This latter version would be the one which Odin was talking about, and the only one, for sure, that we know about which causes temporal echoes. As a matter of fact, if we incorporate Ms Duck’s point that not every being engaging in time travel will have the same skill or power level, it could be that the differences in such is what results in the ability to change time versus getting stuck in a closed loop.

So to the original question I asked—whether the lack of temporal echoes means that we know Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago—the answer, in my opinion, is no, it does not prove anything because we do not yet know enough about time travel in TDF to know that temporal echoes occur in every situation or what type of time travel would be involved in that particular journey.


I think JB was using that opportunity to establish the idea of parallel alternate timelines in the Dresdenverse.  My guess is that someone will use time-travel to change something, or they already have, and JB is going to go the parallel-time-line route rather than the traditional time-travel route.  I don't see JB doing both a TT-back story and a TT-parallel story in the remaining 6 books before the BAT.  And since he's already shown enthusiasm for a Mirror Mirror story, the TT-back plot is probably out.

And I seriously doubt that Harry will time-travel back to PG to do anything, even if a TT-back plot were introduced.  But my point is that he could, and it would explain some things.  Pretty much all the other theories are easier, and infintely more likely.  But that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.

Put simply, the TTH theory doesn't offer any solutions that can't be reached by other theories; it simply opens the door for another layer to the pre-existing story of PG, making it more complex.

Agreed. :) That’s nice to be able to say.





Offline Ms Duck

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 26818
  • Duck of The Black Court
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2013, 10:57:50 PM »
My assumption is that Merlin Emrys is/was a mortal wizard.  Maybe he is/was ancient, and from Atlantis for all we know.  One of the few fictions I read about Merlin was the Lawhead series, where Taliesin was his father, who was born on Atlantis.  I don't know where he got that idea from.

But the issue remains that he managed to get all 5 times to occur at once.  That's still some sort of time manipulation, which seems beyond your typical mortal practitioner.

As for Merlin being ancient in the Dresdenverse, I think his involvement in the Wouncil eliminates him being anything other than a mortal, right?  So unless he's been hanging out in his own crystal cave on DR in a padded crystalline cell, it makes it hard for him to escape aging.

merlin in mythology is a changeling, tho whether half demon or half sidhe varies. he's also curse to live backwards in time in several version.s
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline Silkki

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2013, 11:09:12 PM »
I think most obvious thing to suggest that it's possible to travel trough time even as a mortal is in the laws of magic. If it's impossible unless you are a god, and a strong one at that, the law is meaningless. Something I don't think it is.

Didn't read trough the whole thread so sorry if this was addressed earlier, but the CD energy response was Demonreach chargin in order to use Banefire. It was simply doing it ahead of time cause it was able to sense the incoming attack that would occur in the future.


Offline Ms Duck

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 26818
  • Duck of The Black Court
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2013, 11:11:11 PM »
I think most obvious thing to suggest that it's possible to travel trough time even as a mortal is in the laws of magic. If it's impossible unless you are a god, and a strong one at that, the law is meaningless. Something I don't think it is.

Didn't read trough the whole thread so sorry if this was addressed earlier, but the CD energy response was Demonreach chargin in order to use Banefire. It was simply doing it ahead of time cause it was able to sense the incoming attack that would occur in the future.

the law prohibits swimming thru time, which includes travel to alternate nows, seeing the future, and trying to visit the future to alter the present as well as going back wards

the laws tend to be fairly specific , for example it does not say ' do not kill' it says ' do not kill mortals with magic'
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2013, 11:41:51 PM »
My assumption is that Merlin Emrys is/was a mortal wizard.  Maybe he is/was ancient, and from Atlantis for all we know.  One of the few fictions I read about Merlin was the Lawhead series, where Taliesin was his father, who was born on Atlantis.  I don't know where he got that idea from.

Considering that's the series where the ancient Celts eat potatoes for breakfast, he probably made it up out of whole cloth.  (Potatoes; native to the Americas. Not known in Europe until over a millennium later.)

Quote
As for Merlin being ancient in the Dresdenverse, I think his involvement in the Wouncil eliminates him being anything other than a mortal, right? 

Depends on whether he followed the rules he was setting for everyone else.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2013, 11:44:15 PM »
the law prohibits swimming thru time, which includes travel to alternate nows, seeing the future, and trying to visit the future to alter the present as well as going back wards

the laws tend to be fairly specific , for example it does not say ' do not kill' it says ' do not kill mortals with magic'

Eb qioutes the relevant law in BR as "swim against the currents of time".  I'm not sure that rules out all the options you mention.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Hollorr

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 476
    • View Profile
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2013, 02:33:58 AM »
Ahh, there. This makes sense. It seems exceedingly obvious now that you’ve said it, but it wasn’t at all obvious to me before. Not all time travel has to be the same kind of time travel. We could have Tardis-y time travel, and the ribbon time folding-y thing Griffyn612 mentioned and any number of other models, some of which could lead to the closed time loops, others possibly allowing the past to be rewritten. This latter version would be the one which Odin was talking about, and the only one, for sure, that we know about which causes temporal echoes. As a matter of fact, if we incorporate Ms Duck’s point that not every being engaging in time travel will have the same skill or power level, it could be that the differences in such is what results in the ability to change time versus getting stuck in a closed loop.

So to the original question I asked—whether the lack of temporal echoes means that we know Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago—the answer, in my opinion, is no, it does not prove anything because we do not yet know enough about time travel in TDF to know that temporal echoes occur in every situation or what type of time travel would be involved in that particular journey.
Hmm I think it got the word I wanted to be bold in the quote but just in case " lack of temporal echoes means that we know Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago—the answer"
From what I understand from CD that you had to be physically close to the area where the Echoes are coming to feel them or thats what I got from both Molly and Harry saying as soon they got to DR island and felt something wrong....whos to say that FH didn't bridge a gap back to the Past Harry timelime far away enough to hide the Echoes your talking about.
Oh yeah I think the timetravel is possible but it might require like 13 mages that From SF talks about to do a ritual or some major gods like the greaks since we haven't really seen Zeus Pantheon.
oh the bob the skull talking about stealing a car to explain to harry about what the gate keeper does and someone said that could be a JB clues about whats gonna happen...FH steals car and trys to run over PH to give him enough time to fix LC..anyway Bob the skull was from another poster.

wizard nelson

  • Guest
Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2013, 02:45:59 AM »
Quote
Oh yeah I think the timetravel is possible but it might require like 13 mages that From SF talks about to do a ritual
13 is just the maximum number of practitioners that can cooperate on a ritual nothing to do with time travel itself. usually its weak practitioners that do this though 13 weaklings doth not time travel enable. its almost a given a godling must help. odin even says so.