Author Topic: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]  (Read 5710 times)

Offline KevinSig

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2012, 08:46:14 AM »
The Mantles do change over time (usually centuries). Vadderung said as much. How much do they change and how rapidly probably depends on what the being who is using the mantel is doing. I think Harry may be able to change the WK mantle some. He is really powerful, strong willed and stubborn.

I think you confuse things here.  It isn't that the mantles necessarily change, but they can change.  I think that thing Bob mentioned, about immortals stealing bits of mantles from one another, has a lot to do with long held mantles.

In fact, I wonder if Oberon's mantle (whom Jim recently confirmed existed) went into the creation of the Santa mantle.  I've only done minor research into it & I'm not entirely certain the dates line up (when Shakespeare existed & when Santa came about), but the idea that Odin took something like Oberon into himself, seems to have some merit.

Since Santa is associated with the Fae in ways that Odin is not.


Hmm...  Not sure, but isn't there a WOJ saying how mortals can change the Fae, but they won't change on their own?  Maybe in connection with Toot, but I could be wrong.  Will look around later.

Still, what I'm trying to say is that long immortal creatures like Odin & Mab can only change their mantles by swapping bits in.  Harry & (hopefully Molly) might have an easier time, because they are closer to mortality.

In a recent conversation with Ms Duck, she pointed out that we couldn't trust Odin, because at some point in history, Odin & Loki became the same entity.  I pointed out, that per this theory, Odin likely absorbed Loki's mantle & became a bastard for decades/centuries (not inclined to do the research) but got over it when he picked up the Santa mantle.

Well mostly.  Modern Odin was kinda a jerk insisting on that whole nickel exchange.  :)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 08:49:43 AM by KevinSig »

Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2012, 08:52:42 AM »
Hmm...  Not sure, but isn't there a WOJ saying how mortals can change the Fae, but they won't change on their own?  Maybe in connection with Toot, but I could be wrong.  Will look around later.

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No free will ever?  Or no free will to disobey when commanded?  I don't know that it's possible to have intellect without will.  Well, then again, most of us have to make decisions about what is true, and what isn't, or what to remember and forget - but a spirit of intellect is mostly just a talking library, right?  A storehouse.  Although, Bob seems to also understand what he knows...  I'm getting over my head.


Well, I don't want to hand out too much outside the context of an actual story.  But within the context of the Dresden books, Bob isn't, like, an actual mortal person.

Mortals are the ones who have free will, the ability to choose what they're doing, to choose between right and wrong.  Without getting too thickly into the underlying philosophy, that's the thing that separates, for example, mankind from the angels--the angels didn't get the same kind of choice about their existance, and what they would do with it.  Mortals get the chance to make all kinds of decisions, and can change their minds, well, at will.  Other creatures, though they may look like people, don't get the same range of choices about who and what they will be.

Mab, for example, is Mab.  She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind.  It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it.  She simply isn't capable.  She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do.  It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well.  Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul.  You just stay what you are.

But that's getting way off the subject of Bob.  I mean, don't you think that if he had totally free will, he'd be out of the skull all the time, hitching rides in people's heads on their way into strip bars or something?  There's a reason he obeys Harry, and it's not purely because Harry offers him shelter from a gruesome demise. It's a part of who and what he is.


    Another question: Does Bob know everything all the time, or just know when he is asked a question?  Can he ask himself questions? (wouldn't that involve will?)


He doesn't know everything.  He knows a LOT.  There's a difference.  He's been alive for centuries and worked with a lot of different wizards, and he remembers absolutely everything he is exposed to.  He's an enormous source of information and practical experience, not a conduit to infinite knowledge.  He's got limits.  He can ask himself questions and attempt to extrapolate answers based upon what he knows, or by asking other spirits for answers, or by venturing out and seeking the answers himself, but he doesn't just pull knowledge out of nowhere.  He just LIKES having it, and getting more of it.  That's what he is.  He's innocent (more or less) of the whole question of good and evil.  His existance is focused on questions and answers, upon simply acquiring the knowledge, and that's that.

Which is not to say that he could never become anything more.  Especially if he hangs around with mortals a lot.  Mortals, in their own possession of free will, have a tendancy to influence beings who don't have it, in one way or another.  I suppose it's entirely possible, for example, that too much association with mortals are what changed Aurora, former Summer Lady, and gave her a determination to destroy the natural order in an effort to change its very nature--for the better, true, but it would never even have occurred to any of the other Queens, Mothers or Lady that such a thing might be, until it had already happened.  It isn't in their nature.

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Offline breck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2012, 06:50:52 PM »
As far as possible mantles go we are forgetting mouse. Ancient mai was shocked that harry had mouse, exclaiming why is he allowed to keep him. There is more going on with mouse than we have realised. I believe jim has even stated that mouse is more clued in than harry though i am paraphrasing there and may have done so incorrectly.

Offline xakko

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2012, 06:53:58 PM »
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28481.msg1220859.html#msg1220859
that [the bolded part]... doesn't sound like Nemesis.

it sounds rather like a mortal (possibly a Nemesis infused one) convinced her.  I think we need to ask Jim if Aurora was actually infected or not.

Offline madness

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2012, 07:33:29 PM »
I have a feeling that Mantles (like magic) change slowly over time as the world around them (and the purpose that they serve) changes.

I think that it is likely that Harry (and hopefully Molly as well) changes the mantle as he resists its influence.

I actually sort of interpret the overall story arc of the series as Harry being at the nexus of a changing of the guard in the supernatural community as a whole.  Every institution that Harry involves himself with seems to be altered by him in some fashion and his 'modern' and 'mortal centric' sensibilities are both changing existing institutions (changing the self-image of the younger wardens and reshaping the social structure of the Little Folk being the most obvious examples) and creating new institutions (Baron Marcone, Paranet, BFS, etc.).

IMO, this is what Harry most has in common with the original Merlin - I think that he is at the center of reshaping the supernatural landscape (especially as it relates to mortals).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 07:35:23 PM by madness »

Offline Ben de Wal

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2012, 07:34:31 PM »
As far as possible mantles go we are forgetting mouse. Ancient mai was shocked that harry had mouse, exclaiming why is he allowed to keep him. There is more going on with mouse than we have realised. I believe jim has even stated that mouse is more clued in than harry though i am paraphrasing there and may have done so incorrectly.
i would think  that harry was aloud to keep mouse was because mouse chose harry and i'd like  to see any one take harry away from mouse

Offline Ben de Wal

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2012, 07:36:13 PM »
I have a feeling that Mantles (like magic) change slowly over time as the world around them (and the purpose that they serve) changes.

I think that it is likely that Harry (and hopefully Molly as well) changes the mantle as he resists its influence.

I actually sort of interpret the overall story arc of the series as Harry being at the nexus of a changing of the guard in the supernatural community as a whole.  Every institution that Harry involves himself with seems to be altered by him in some fashion and his 'modern' and 'mortal centric' sensibilities are both changing existing institutions (changing the self-image of the younger wardens and reshaping the social structure of the Little Folk being the most obvious examples) and creating new institutions (Baron Marcone, Paranet, BFS, etc.).

IMO, this is what Harry most has in common with the original Merlin - I think that he is at the center of reshaping the supernatural landscape (especially as it relates to mortals).
i like the idea of the mantle changing with the host so if you have a bunch of weak will knight in a row the mantel would increse the desirse of  the next knight  maybe harry resisting the mantle with soul fire   it will change more quickly  but  the mantle will always have a preditory instinct
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 07:40:55 PM by Ben de Wal »

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2012, 07:38:18 PM »
You touch on some important points that I didn't address in my post.

The thing is, if the two mantles merged, that means that Demonreach would fall into Winter's sphere of influence.  Mab's comments to Demonreach at the end of GS, and Harry's command to Demonreach about interring her if she kills him at the end of CD strongly imply that the Wardenship is DEFINITELY not under Mab's purview as it stands now, whereas the Winter Knight Mantle is nothing but an extension of her own power that must be wielded by a mortal vessel. 

Those two qualities are kinda exclusive, and that oil and water exclusion would have to be addressed for this WAG to work.  One of the reasons why I think this might work out is that Winter didn't always have custodianship over the Outer Gates... Which is evidence that the Winter purview does change.

thinking about the gawaine/gwalchmai myth.. doi the knight sof the cross have a mantle of sorts of their own? it would explain why they can do things even without the swords

second, is it possible for someone to be both knight of winter and the cross at the same time?

(hello gwalchmai)

 ;D
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Offline KevinSig

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »
You touch on some important points that I didn't address in my post.

The thing is, if the two mantles merged, that means that Demonreach would fall into Winter's sphere of influence.  Mab's comments to Demonreach at the end of GS, and Harry's command to Demonreach about interring her if she kills him at the end of CD strongly imply that the Wardenship is DEFINITELY not under Mab's purview as it stands now, whereas the Winter Knight Mantle is nothing but an extension of her own power that must be wielded by a mortal vessel. 

Those two qualities are kinda exclusive, and that oil and water exclusion would have to be addressed for this WAG to work.  One of the reasons why I think this might work out is that Winter didn't always have custodianship over the Outer Gates... Which is evidence that the Winter purview does change.

Not necessarily.  Harry's statement of being the Winter Knight, but being semi independent, might be part of it.  Plus, the mantles could be in flux, so who trumps who, isn't settled.  However, if Winter Knight went withe mantle of The Warden from here on out, then I'd expect the role to be a bit more independent minded from here on in.

And whoever picked up the mantle from there on in, would likely find himself shaped a bit more like Harry.  Who can respect & work with Mab, but doesn't have to like her.

Offline madness

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2012, 09:14:59 PM »
thinking about the gawaine/gwalchmai myth.. doi the knight sof the cross have a mantle of sorts of their own? it would explain why they can do things even without the swords

second, is it possible for someone to be both knight of winter and the cross at the same time?

(hello gwalchmai)

 ;D

Harry specifically mentions a Knight mantle when asking Karrin to wield Fidelacchius at CI.

Quote
"I'm not asking you to take up the mantle of a Knight," I said quietly.  "I want to entrust it to you for this night, for this purpose.  This sword was made to fight darkness, and there's going to be plenty to go around.  Take it up.  Just until my girl is safe."

I don't know that a Winter Knight really meshes very well with the values of a Knight of the Cross but the Archangels appear to have a bit of discretion in these matters.  On a short-term basis I imagine that it would not be a problem.  Several times it is mentioned that the Almighty sees souls, not titles or names or reputations.  Susan was able to use a sword when she was a half vampire and Harry is still able to use soulfire even as the Winter Knight (and he was trusted with two swords when he still had a shadow in his head).

Uriel has intervened in several instances, IMO, to help 'insulate' Harry's soul against the dark powers and forces that he is exposed to or tempted by.  He might do something similar for Molly.  I have no doubt that being a Knight of the Cross could shield Molly from the Winter Lady mantle.  I don't know if Uriel would be willing to upset the balance or risk the purpose of a Sword in that fashion but I think that it would work if that is the way that it shook out.

Offline Electric MacButters

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2013, 03:36:41 PM »
I find it had to believe no one has mentioned the single greatest mantle Harry is burdened with:
(click to show/hide)
  This is why his cup is full, all his other mantles combined make up just a small fraction of this one.  In the right set of circumstances, it might even rival that of the Mothers.
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Offline Paladino

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2013, 05:03:57 PM »
Kind (ok totally) offtopic but...

Quote
Well, I don't want to hand out too much outside the context of an actual story.  But within the context of the Dresden books, Bob isn't, like, an actual mortal person.

Mortals are the ones who have free will, the ability to choose what they're doing, to choose between right and wrong.  Without getting too thickly into the underlying philosophy, that's the thing that separates, for example, mankind from the angels--the angels didn't get the same kind of choice about their existance, and what they would do with it.  Mortals get the chance to make all kinds of decisions, and can change their minds, well, at will.  Other creatures, though they may look like people, don't get the same range of choices about who and what they will be.

Mab, for example, is Mab.  She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind.  It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it.  She simply isn't capable.  She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do. It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well.  Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul.  You just stay what you are.

Does anyone ever read this and thougth that Jim mention Mab to give example of how supernatural creatures are stuck on their nature, but when he start talking about souls (enphasis mine) he is again talking about Bob? So that maybe Mab or even the sidhe in general may have souls of somekind?

English is not my first language, so I'm not sure if the WoJ can be interpreted/read this way... Just a thougth I had..

Offline Rasins

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2013, 05:06:36 PM »
Someone (I think it was Serack) mentioned the "cup full" thing with regards to taking on Mantles.  We know that Harry has always felt that his plate is full.  Well, not when he as sitting in his office reading novels, but since he took on Wardening for the WC for sure.  Now he's taken on the Mantle of the WARDEN, and the Mantle of the WK.  This impliles one of two things.  Harry's cup isn't/wasn't full, or Harry's cup grows.  I lean toward the latter.  Humans can, and do, change (look at the will discussion).  I think this includes thier metaphysical capabilities.  I think supernaturals (Mab, fae, angels, ...) Don't or RARELY change, as evidenced by Jim's statements about Aurora and the other concepts never even ocurring to Mab and Tatiana. 

All of this leads me to the possibility that while Harry's cup may be full, or close to full, I think he's stretching his limits and making more cup available.

What does this have to do with reforging the mantles into one, or mingleing them and having two new, well it's a twist. 

I think we'll see Harry take on MORE power.  It may conincide with Halloween and he may be able to take on bits of others Mantles.   Let's not forget that folks can take and drop bits of Mantles on Halloween.  In fact, he may already have taken on some of the Earlking's "Leader of the Wild Hunt" mantle.  Remember that Earl ASKED Harry if he could lead it for the rest of the hunt.  Two things happened there, Harry TOOK the leadership.  When I first read this I thought of it as nothing more than Harry returning the Wild Hunt to a capable leader.  However what it if is now Harry allowed a "vassle" to lead in his place.  If this is the case, then he still has the leadership chunk of the Wild Hunt as part of the new HBCD Mantle which will include bits of others including WARDEN and Winter Knight.
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Offline Paladino

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2013, 05:08:23 PM »
Back on topic..

Really cool theorie Serack. I find interesting that Soulfire migth give Harry the power to change the WK mantle. After all it's the "power of creation". 

Question is, does Mab knows this? Does she wants this? Does she think Harry won't do it? What would she gain or lose with it?

As for Harry fusing the mantles in only one, I find it that it is too much especulation yet. Don't think it's going to happen. Maybe if he gets a nother mantle from Odin or other god we could especulate that Harry is being forged by many diferent powers to take Mab place as Earth Guardian.. Or any job that every major players want's done but that require their coperation but none trusth the other to be the one responsible for it.. 

Offline spameroo

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2013, 05:08:34 PM »
thinking about the gawaine/gwalchmai myth.. doi the knight sof the cross have a mantle of sorts of their own? it would explain why they can do things even without the swords

Harry referred to "the mantle of a Knight of the Cross" in Small Favor.  If nothing else, it's a "mantle" in terms of being a role/position/title of power and responsibility.  I think everyone is putting way too much stock in this idea that a "mantle," as discussed in Cold Days specifically, is some kind of discrete thing, whether a metaphysical object of sorts, or some kind of quasi-sentient entity.  Words mean things, and that's not quite what "mantle" means.  I think the best way to consider it is as the relevant dictionary definition: an important role or responsibility that passes from one person to another.  In the Dresden universe, we've seen many times that with great responsibility comes great power. That power can take different forms.

In the best-described case, when Harry assumed the mantle of (i.e., took on the role of, accepted the responsibility of, put on the metaphysical uniform of, etc...) the Winter Knight, part of that process involved literally taking into himself the essence of Winter and a measure of Mab's power.  That is a part of the mantle of the Winter Knight, because it is part of what defines "the Winter Knight."

Harry took up the mantle of "Warden of the Well," if unintentionally, and as part of that, he gained intellectus of the island and authority over the disposition of the prisoners.  "Warden of the Well" is a mantle in the exact same way "Winter Knight" is.

When Maeve killed Lily, we watched the passing of the mantle of Summer Lady into the nearest vessel of Faerie as a literal, visible transfer of the essence of Summer.  Same with the mantle of Winter Lady shortly after.  However, that doesn't mean the fiery bird form and the blue snake form WERE the mantles.  Those were manifestations of the powers encompassed within those mantles.  This is a difficult distinction to put into words, and I'm probably not explaining myself well, so let me give a final example:

There is a mantle of the Knight of the Cross.  We haven't yet observed that mantle passing TO anyone, but we've seen it taken off.  One aspect of the mantle is that archangels send the Knights to where they are most needed.  One aspect is the fear, respect, and deference given to the Knights by many supernatural beings.  The most obvious aspect of the mantle, though, is the Sword.  A Knight of the Cross carries a Sword of the Cross.  Much of the power that goes with the mantle comes from the wielding of the Sword.  Bearing a Sword doesn't make someone a Knight, but the inverse is true.  The Swords of the Cross are analogous to the fire-bird and ice-snake that accompanied the passing of the Ladies' mantles.