Author Topic: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]  (Read 19222 times)

Offline lilylis

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2013, 02:31:04 AM »

Not only will Harry succeed in retaining who he is rather than the Winter Mantle taking that away from him, but his use of Soulfire while the Winter Knight will Reforge the
so what Mantles does Harry wear/Job descriptions does he hold?
  • White Council Member (card carrying, the paperwork for his re-admittance has been filed)
  • Vanilla Warden Regional Commander
  • Sword of The Cross Custodian x2 (currently proxied out to Murph, his Robin)
  • Host to some unidentified "parasite"
  • Mortal Soulfire Wielder
  • Starborn (Whatever that means)
  • The Warden of Demonreach
  • Winter Knight
 

Perhaps not mantles of power in themselves but definitely power-ups of a sort....Harry is the initiating founder of the Paranetters in the Dresdenverse...it was his idea...and they are one of his groups of allies who although not individually very powerful do become of source of information to him and his other allies...and knowledge is power.

This is also similar to being ZA Lord and his relationship to Toot and his team of wylde fae dewdrop faeries & pixies. Whether through bribery... they are allies and in a sense a powerup of sorts...one others often overlook.

Every ally or group of allies he collects in essence gives Harry a boost of some sort.... whether they are a magical Foo Dog, a group of shapeshifing human/werewolfs, the knights of the cross, an archangel, Big Foot & Son, or shoemaking elves....etc   

I suspect all Harry's allies will come into play for the BAT as well as the mantles of power he has been collecting.
"I have a monster under my bed, and it's Mouse.…There was another one there but me and Mouse slayerized it. --Maggie Dresden

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2013, 02:35:09 AM »
what wonders me is does DR have an actual mantle? Eb's notes sugest thats so, or is he using the word differently?

its possible that it does, and Harry hasnt felt it yet, because DR is afriad it will fry his little monkey brain ;)
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline kytheros

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2013, 02:35:53 AM »
and i think youre over simplyfing things a bit:

the mantles likely have more then one purpose. (mab's for example probably does waaay more then just make her logical.)

the WK, along with making a violent idiot, also has very strong reporductive instincts wired into it where sidhe ladies are concerned.

and I doubt the 'warden of DR' is a mantle at all, frankly. A 'mantle' is in essence, i suspect, a more advanced bob. a programmed knowledge system that can be passed from host to host; some are likely far more advanced then others. While harry gains some information from sharing DR's knowledge, there doesnt seem to be any instinctive programming built into it.

what i believe Mother Summer was saying is that the mantles learn from each bearer, and Harry can choose to change his in some ways if he has enough will.

the WK mantle may be a violent idiot now, but wanna bet that by the time Harry passes it on it wont be?
More advanced Bob? Nah. I'd say it'd be a significantly less 'advanced', if by 'advanced' we're meaning intelligent/self-aware. Of course, depending on the Mantle in question, it may or may not be more powerful.
Being nearly or more advanced than Bob, I think would be less like a Mantle, and more something like the Fallen component of a Denarian.
In computer terms, Bob is an complete self-aware AI, a Mantle is more akin to smart or expert programing.

Offline lilylis

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2013, 02:36:20 AM »
Where is this idea that Mab thinks always logically?  We've seen, even in the most recent book, that Mab can let her decisions be made on an emotional basis.  It's why she had Harry do the job, instead of herself.

It is the nature of winter and its mantles to be more logical and summer to be more emotional.... it is not an always kind of thing or so it seems... Mother Summer hinted at this...and Mab herself claims she was once human.  Harry figured it out himself after speaking with Mother Summer that Mab has a mother's emotions and cannot kill her own daughter although it needed doing....hence her command to Harry. But typically, Winter's Mantle influences toward logic rather than emotions IIRC.
"I have a monster under my bed, and it's Mouse.…There was another one there but me and Mouse slayerized it. --Maggie Dresden

Offline KevinSig

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2013, 02:36:43 AM »
what i believe Mother Summer was saying is that the mantles learn from each bearer, and Harry can choose to change his in some ways if he has enough will.

I've already responded to you on this & think that view is flat wrong.  To reiterate:
Quote
See the section where Harry's mantle gives him unhelpful advice on how to fight Fix, & how Harry points out that Slate killed the previous Summer Knight by shoving him down the stairs (thus, ignoring the mantle).  The mantle doesn't learn, it's just an unthinking bunch of occasionally helpful instinctual commands.  It is up to the Knight who holds them to choose to listen or ignore these imperatives.

Bob believed that the mantle could not be changed & from Harry's descriptions of past WKs, if it changes any, it must be a glacially slow process.  Mab spent a lot of time energy getting Harry specifically.  Maybe because she knew he was the sort whose Will, could ignore the less than productive qualities of the Winter Knight.

I'm not suggesting that a mantle is incapable of learning, but changing its nature.  Even if you don't believe The Warden is mantle, despite Ebneezer's description of it in his journal, there is the soul fire & Starborn elements to consider.

Without adding bit & pieces to the WK mantle, you will never really change it.  Hence the long succession of similarly jerky Winter Knights.  You can only ignore its imperatives.

Unless the mantle gets reforged, it won't be different for the next Winter Knight.  What I'm trying to suggest is that Harry's various mantles might do what prior Winter Knights have not.

Quote from: WOJ
Mab, for example, is Mab.  She /can't/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind.  It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn't a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can't/ choose to change it.  She simply isn't capable.  She doesn't have free will in the same way that people do.  It's related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well.  Without a soul, you aren't free to choose how you will shape that soul.  You just stay what you are.

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2013, 02:43:15 AM »
More advanced Bob? Nah. I'd say it'd be a significantly less 'advanced', if by 'advanced' we're meaning intelligent/self-aware. Of course, depending on the Mantle in question, it may or may not be more powerful.
Being nearly or more advanced than Bob, I think would be less like a Mantle, and more something like the Fallen component of a Denarian.
In computer terms, Bob is an complete self-aware AI, a Mantle is more akin to smart or expert programing.

Quote
Are there any other powerful spirits in the world like Bob who could contend with his experience and council?


Indeed. >  ;D

-Jim

Bob's personality isnt truly his, its  reflection of his owner.  Compare that to the archive ; who has a different but much larger database.

then you go up the scale to what Mab 'knows' ..

I dont think weve seen enough of the WK mantle yet to tell what information it has accesss too so whether or not its 'more advanced' then Bob is open. The Archive is very likely so; Mab's mantle almost certainly so

Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline spameroo

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2013, 02:45:00 AM »
What other time are you talking about?  Bob only mentioned Halloween as a time when a mantle can undergo change in its nature.  Yes, the Winter Knight mantle can be handed off any any time of the year, but we are talking about changing the nature of the mantle & maybe permanently fusing it with the mantle of the Warden.

Yes, there might be other conjunctions where an immortal can be killed, such as the stone table, but changing the nature of a mantle might be limited to that particular date.

When Lily got the mantle of the Summer Lady it wasn't changed.  The change I'm thinking of, is like Odin making the mantle of Santa Claus.  One that didn't exist prior.  That was more of a fundamental change, than just swapping vessels.
See my previous post concerning the nature of mantles. 

A big part of what defines such mantles is the authority and influence they grant the bearers.
This is more true for some than others, of course. For example, the mantle of the Merlin of the White Council grants immense power to the one who wears it. It doesn't, however, as far as we know, grant any magical boost.
The power of the Merlin mantle is in the authority of leadership it grants over the White Council. It's in the respect granted the wearer among Accords signatories as leader of the one of the most powerful nations. It's in the fact that its wearer has been officially and unequivocally recognized as the most powerful wizard alive. It's social power, political power, and economic power.
The magical power of Langtry may not be significantly greater than, say, Ancient Mai or Ebenezer (ignoring, for the moment, the Blackstaff), but the mantle essentially allows one individual human to wield the magical power, the influence, the knowledge, and the resources - of the entire White Council of Wizards.
There are limitations, sure, and he can't just do whatever he wants with that power, because it comes from others -- but that's no different from the mantle of the Winter Knight!  Mab wields power over a domain of nature, and vests a measure of that power in the WK, but there are checks and limitations on the way that power can be used, and the granter, Mab, can withdraw it at any time. In the same way, the the wizards of White Council vest tremendous power in the Merlin by submitting to his leadership and working with him to provide a unified front to the rest of the world, despite any internal differences. The Merlin is limited in his use of that power, however, both by design (the checks built into the government of the Council) and by the nature of that power (its use depends on getting a LOT of free-will-possessing people to work together).

My point here is that the question "when can the nature of a mantle be changed?" is the wrong question to be asking. I don't think there's this concrete category of things in the Dresdenverse called "Mantles," following a defined set of rules, in the same way, for example, that "Immortals," "Mortals," "Spirits of the Nevernever," or even "Ghosts" are. I also don't think there's some type of discrete magical construction called a Mantle, as is the case with such categories as "articles of faith" or "greater circles."

A Mantle is a role or a position of responsibility, and everything that goes with it. It's a word that describes something much more than an entity's job, but less than its identity.

The question of Harry changing the Mantle of the Winter Knight is actually asking whether or not Harry can change the portion of Winter's power granted to him by Mab. She gave him a portion of herself, because that is a large part of what makes someone the Winter Knight. When he talks about the "mantle's influence" or attributes dark thoughts and impulses to the Mantle, he's using the word as shorthand for "the portion of Winter's essence placed in me as the Winter Knight."  The question that's valid is whether or not the nature of that portion of Mab can be influenced in the same way Lasciel's Shadow was, or alternatively, by extended interaction with soulfire. If you want to use Harry's shorthand and call it the Mantle, fine, but please remember that it's a word, and that it means something specific - not an arbitrary label for a category of things.

Immortals are what can only be changed on Halloween. Maybe immortals can only take up new mantles or set down old ones on Halloween. But that is a function of them being immortals.   

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2013, 02:46:10 AM »
as to the soul thing.. either Jim isnt telling us everything or hes just incapabale of writing a two dimesnional charchter. Mab has feelings, and some measure of free will.

otherwise she would have just blasted maeve to smithereens.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline kytheros

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2013, 03:53:06 AM »
Bob's personality isnt truly his, its  reflection of his owner.  Compare that to the archive ; who has a different but much larger database.

then you go up the scale to what Mab 'knows' ..

I dont think weve seen enough of the WK mantle yet to tell what information it has accesss too so whether or not its 'more advanced' then Bob is open. The Archive is very likely so; Mab's mantle almost certainly so
I think it depends on what you're meaning by "more advanced" - if you mean "more power, more abilities, more capabilities, etc", then the Archive and the Mantle of the Winter Queen are "more advanced" than Bob.
If by "more advanced" we're speaking of self-awareness and active intelligence ... I don't think we can say that Mantles are "more advanced" than Bob. Bob is an independent entity (technically). A Mantle exists within a person, and from what we know, while it shapes a person and adds 'instincts' and preprogrammed responses to a variety of stimuli ... but it isn't sentient, it isn't self-aware (or if it is, it is barely so).
Also, I don't think I'd call The Archive a Mantle in the same sense that the Winter Knighthood or Ladyship is.

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2013, 03:58:13 AM »
I think it depends on what you're meaning by "more advanced" - if you mean "more power, more abilities, more capabilities, etc", then the Archive and the Mantle of the Winter Queen are "more advanced" than Bob.
If by "more advanced" we're speaking of self-awareness and active intelligence ... I don't think we can say that Mantles are "more advanced" than Bob. Bob is an independent entity (technically). A Mantle exists within a person, and from what we know, while it shapes a person and adds 'instincts' and preprogrammed responses to a variety of stimuli ... but it isn't sentient, it isn't self-aware (or if it is, it is barely so).
Also, I don't think I'd call The Archive a Mantle in the same sense that the Winter Knighthood or Ladyship is.

well thats sort of my point, i think its exactly the same thing. I dont see why Jim would reinvent the wheel; if he has one technology that works for that sort of thing within his universe its a lot more consistent to make modificaitons then to create all new things each time.

and furthermore it would explain why Jim answered the question of 'are there more Bobs' with an evil smiley face

finaly, i think the WK is aware, just at an animal level. the ladies are likely much more ware, then we go up the scale.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline spameroo

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2013, 06:42:02 AM »

finaly, i think the WK is aware, just at an animal level. the ladies are likely much more ware, then we go up the scale.
The Winter Knight is aware.  At least as aware as he ever is ;)

I think the portion of Winter granted to Harry when he assumed the mantle of the Winter Knight is the animalistic awareness that was influencing Harry in Cold Days.

The larger portions of Winter's and Summer's essences that we saw entering Molly and Sarissa probably do have more of an intelligence to them, but I think we'd need to know what the ROLES of the Ladies are, to know how much.
Mab's mantle of Defender of the Outer Gates (i.e., The Winter Queen, Queen of Air and Darkness, etc.,) comes with commensurate power to do the job: probably Mab's intelligence was increased phenomenally, as well as her awareness. She may well have intellectus in the vicinity of her realm and/or the Gates. Harry gained it for Demonreach when he inadvertently claimed the mantle of its Warden, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

The Archive is a magical construct. I don't remember if we know Bob's origin, but I always understood him to be a spirit originating in the NN who was at some point pressed into service as a mini-Archive.

I see no reason to think the Fairy Queens or Knights are some sort of programmed, distinct constructs or entities.  Maybe what you guys are calling capital-M Mantles of the Queens and Knights are identical in any practical sense to what I am calling the essences of Winter/Summer. If so, the term is referring to something specific to the Faerie courts and their construction. 

I just can't see any reason to believe all the cool stuff in the series would turn out to be something as lame as a bunch of preprogrammed magical upgrade kits that get swapped around every Halloween.

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2013, 06:52:14 AM »
less 'preprogrammed' and more 'semi self aware learning systems' ..and when you get down to the implicaitons of how Mab's aspect might work, you get something very cool indeed.

one of the classic myths about Mab was she could hear everything said on the wind or in secret; much like the archive in the DF knows everything written down.

now unlike the archive, mab is likely not limited only to what was said in the past or the present, but has some awareness of the possible future... she would be very very scary indeed.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline madness

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #57 on: January 12, 2013, 07:43:53 AM »
I am pretty confident, after CD, that whoever is in charge of defending the Outer Gates gets access to a ton of power/abilities/etc. (whether via a mantle or via some other method).

I think that in the Dresdenverse the supernatural powers who are powerful/important enough to know the true nature of the Outer Gates would never think of screwing with Mab (because it is insane, not because she is too powerful for them to destroy).  They either help Mab out or else they make sure not to interfere with her duty at the Outer Gates.

The supernatural powers who aren't sufficiently important/ancient/powerful to be aware of the true nature of the Outer Gates simply don't have the ability to seriously threaten Mab. 

The Unseelie Accords probably exist to prevent the 'minor' supernatural powers/nations from interfering in the important stuff (the defense of the Outer Gates and the general ruling of reality that the gods tend to be involved in).  Making sure that the 'kids' don't accidentally do something stupid and that no single one of them amasses enough power to unbalance things and/or threaten Mab.

My guess is that events like CI and the war against the Black Court are probably examples of the parents stepping in and arranging for one of the kids to get knocked down a peg or two in order to prevent further trouble.

Offline KevinSig

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2013, 06:11:45 PM »
I just thought of something, that I need to work out when I've got the time, but here goes...

Soul Fire = Death Curse = Mantle

Why?  Remember, Harry repeatedly has stated that magic just doesn't go out & do things, and isn't a thinking force.  Then look at the effects of the Death Curses we know of.  Margaret's went out & attacked the White King is a very creative way, and left a echo of herself in her two sons.  Snake Boy's Death Curse followed Harry around & pushed him towards dying alone.

Both effects are much like the works of mantles.  Consider how the mantle of the Wild Hunt made the bike into a creature form.

And then consider all the times Harry has employed Soulfire & it has come out in creative ways.  Like the giant hand spell & the Artic Fire.

I'd go into more detail, but I haven't the time.  However, Serack - I'd like you to consider adding Margaret's Death Curse onto Harry's mantle list.  We've seen it push Harry away from actions in Storm Front, and I think it was what linked Harry & Thomas in Blood Rites.  I know, most assume there was a communion spell of sorts, but something like a Death Curse effect seems to be more likely.  Since, spells can't actually think & all that.

Offline aShorty21

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2013, 09:42:45 PM »
A big part of what defines such mantles is the authority and influence they grant the bearers.
This is more true for some than others, of course. For example, the mantle of the Merlin of the White Council grants immense power to the one who wears it. It doesn't, however, as far as we know, grant any magical boost.   

It seems to me a lot of the disagreements/arguments in this thread are being triggered by a missunderstanding of descriptions/definitions.

Definition 1 (Not unique to the DV): A figurative cloak symbolizing preeminence or authority <accepted the mantle of leadership>

Definition 2 (Unique to the DV): A power/ability obtained (willingly or unwillingly through various means) by an indvidual. Said power/ability may influence the bearer. It may remove options to choice and/or influence the bearer's choice.

Some Mantles being discussed clearly fall into one definition above. Some fall into both. I believe the problem is arising from tring to compare Definition 1 and 2. Let me try to clarify...

So the Merlin example clearly falls into line with the first defintion. As does being the president of a company, or treasurer of a fraternity, or chief of police.

Becoming the Winter Knight falls into line with the second definition. Being the Winter Knight obviously influences Harry.

Becoming the Warden falls into both definitions. Harry has gained responsibility as the Warden, but he also gained access to intellectus of the island.

So I'm saying is; when trying to discuss Mantles, it is ok to compare the responsibilites of being Warden with the responsibilites of being President of the USA. It is also ok to compare the power boost gained from being Winter Knight with the Intellectus gained from the island.

Here is where the Merlin example falls apart. The Merlin of the White Council does have responsibilites and can direct the White Council, but as far as we can tell, there isn't any actual metaphysical power boost. Arther Langtry has just as much magical power as an individual with or without the position of Merlin.

Another way to look at it is this... Think about the types of powers that could be transferred on Halloween. I think we can all realize that just raw magical potential could be transferred (whole or in part) between individuals. If that raw magical potential was tied up with being Santa Claus, then if you get enough of the bits you are essentialy Santa Claus. You are what you eat. The same could not be said of being VP of accounting for Intel. VP of accounting isn't the type of power that can be transfered on Halloween, therefore it falls under Definition 1 and not Definition 2.
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