Author Topic: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?  (Read 66938 times)

Offline Gigglestomp

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #105 on: May 01, 2014, 03:36:08 PM »
We mentioned in this thread quite a few discrepancies in regards to opening the ways. In some situations people are shown to open ways that others have previously opened, or expect to be able to open a way and end up in the same place as someone else had previously.

I do not think this is a discrepancy if you look at the fundamental way that the nevernever and the ways function.

The Way of "The Ways" Theory:
Every single thing has one or more ideas associated with it. Everywhere that one place has a similar quality or idea associated with it as another place, that “same-ness” causes the mortal world and the nevernever to touch.

For example, a bar (let’s call it “Origin”) might touch a space in the nevernever, we will call it “Space A” that may be close to the erlking’s domain in faerie because of the similarities in feeling to one of his halls. That same bar ALSO touches another space in the nevernever at the exact same time, “Space B”, which is close to the realm of Dionysus, not in faerie at all. At the same time, it also touches “Space C” in some section of the nevernever where the Pulp fiction movie is real and the fictional bar touches the in-real-life bar “Origin” where it was shot.
Now, each of Origin’s destinations in the feels like Origin” in at least one aspect, but it also feels like quite a lot of other things too! Each of these traits links up to a different place in the real world, that might not even be a bar.

Now, let’s define a “Way” or “One of the Ways” as a place in the nevernever that has a lot of traits/connections, like an airport! A person can get many, many places from that airport.
It just so happens that most of the “Ways” are in faerie, or close to it. Why? Because faerie is the closest spot in the nevernever to the mortal world. It touches the most places in real life. Probably the fae chose to live there for that very reason (They like to mingle with mortals).

When someone says they “Know a Way” all they are saying is they know a place in the real world, that takes them to a place in the nevernever that has a lot of useful connections/associations with real life places – Edinburgh Scotland, Chichen Itza, Ben and Jerry’s, Disneyland, wherever.

Harry mentioned that generally it’s nearly impossible for one person to open a way to the exact same place as another person.

Why?

Because:
1.   You need to be in the exact same spot.
2.   You need to know the exact trait of sameness you are trying to get to. Remember, “Origin” links up to Space A, B, and C for different reasons.

And then, once you get there, you need to:
1.   Be in the exact same spot in the nevernever.
2.   You need to know the exact trait of sameness you are trying to get to. Remember, “Space A” links up to “Origin” but it probably also links up to countless other places, a different place for every trait/idea it contains.
It’s unreasonable to assume a random person would know the exact link Harry or someone else is utilizing on either trip, so it’s generally impossible to open a spot to the same area as someone else.


This rule has many exceptions in the books that are listed previously in this thread. I’m not going to link to all the individual posts here, we are already here.
But a few examples:
Harry expects Molly to be able to open a Way from the storage unit to a piece of the nevernever close to a Way in faerie, that is a trail to a place that lets you cross over into Edinburgh. She would not be able to do so by simply opening a way. But by telling her basically where she would be going, he gave her the keystone/idea/coordinates that she would need to come out where she needed to. If she has just randomly opened a Way without knowing that a “Trail to Edinburgh” was an option, she could have ended up in any one of a million places. Maybe the reality in the nevernever where Dexter’s mother’s murder took place in the Showtime tv show?

When Peabody was running from the Edinburgh complex, Harry was convinced he had to catch him before he jumped into the nevernever, or it would be hopeless. Why? Because since Harry has no idea which “Space” he is aiming for from “Origin” Harry could end up in any one of countless places in the nevernever by trying to open a random gate. This is different than Harry and Molly in the storage locker because Molly was told the general Zip Code of where she was going.




I’m also going to use this theory to explain one of the many crazy “Odin/Mab” creating a gate to a specific place directly things.
Odin creates a lightning gate in the real world. A physical object. Let’s say it doesn’t even do anything. (Gate A)
He creates a lightning gate in the nevernever – say on Midgard. Again, doesn’t do anything. (Gate B)
He then creates an identical gate that doesn’t do anything in an entirely different part of the real world. (Gate C)
These gates do nothing on their own, but because they are identical, that idea/sameness creates a connection between the nevernever and the real world. Like drawing a line with a pencil.
Gate A and Gate C both have the same trait as Gate B.
Gate B has the same trait as Gate A and Gate C.
By creating this sameness, he could then open up a portal at Gate A, which would undoubtedly lead to Gate B. Then he could open up a way at Gate B that could lead to Gate C (or back to Gate A).
From Chichen Itza, Odin’s gate could have tossed Harry on his ass in Chicago. Just like how Mab’s portal in Harry’s WK quarters tossed him on his ass in Chicago.
Harry realizes that ideas connect the nevernever, but he isn’t on the scale where he can easily make new connections. Odin and Mab have enough juice to create similarities between places, and similarities automatically create paths.

Also, by creating a Gate D, Gate B would then have 3 different gates connected to it, and an alternate destination from Gate A. Odin could send his group to one place, and Harry to another, or even send every single person walking through the gate to a different place. All he needs to do is build the similar gates elsewhere. Which…theoretically a God could do?



Offline knnn

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #106 on: May 01, 2014, 03:57:47 PM »
Maybe.

The problem is that it's not "path to Edinburgh", it's "a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh".  This doesn't sound quote like a localized area.
 
Now maybe you can still argue that somehow the intent to get to Edinburgh is enough?  That puts a lot of faith in the AI (for the lack of a better word) of spell to bring you exactly to where you desire.  This seems a lot more subtle than what you usually get for instant, evocation-like spells. 

Like I said.   Maybe.

How about another example?

In White Night, Harry opens up a NN portal and Thomas just happens to be standing outside.  Now maybe Thomas found one of those point where the NN touches, but how did Harry know exactly where to open the portal or which exact idea would bring Thomas?  Again, you can argue that Harry happened to have Thomas in his mind, so the spell automatically figured out where a White Court vampire would end up yada, yada, but that seems way more advanced than what the text seems to be implying.

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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #107 on: May 01, 2014, 04:30:14 PM »
Maybe.

The problem is that it's not "path to Edinburgh", it's "a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh".  This doesn't sound quote like a localized area.
 
Now maybe you can still argue that somehow the intent to get to Edinburgh is enough?  That puts a lot of faith in the AI (for the lack of a better word) of spell to bring you exactly to where you desire.  This seems a lot more subtle than what you usually get for instant, evocation-like spells. 

Like I said.   Maybe.

How about another example?

In White Night, Harry opens up a NN portal and Thomas just happens to be standing outside.  Now maybe Thomas found one of those point where the NN touches, but how did Harry know exactly where to open the portal or which exact idea would bring Thomas?  Again, you can argue that Harry happened to have Thomas in his mind, so the spell automatically figured out where a White Court vampire would end up yada, yada, but that seems way more advanced than what the text seems to be implying.

IIRC Harry said that Thomas should have been able to open the portal between the NeverNever and the Deeps because he had an emotional,  though negative,  connection to it. If Harry had somehow signaled Thomas who then opened the Portal, that might have made more sense. But maybe it was enough that Thomas knew where to go, where the portal would appear while Harry had an image in his mind of Thomas standing there waiting fir him.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 04:51:30 PM by Tami Seven »
War Cry -
"Thomas doesn't fight back, not even for an instant. In the end, it's not common sense that pulls me back from the brink, or even fear of being devoured by the Shoggoth....It's the look of unshakeable trust in my Brother's eyes, even as my hands tighten around his throat."

Offline Gigglestomp

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #108 on: May 01, 2014, 04:38:46 PM »
IIRC Harry said that Thomas should have been able to open the portal between the NeverNever because he had an emotional,  though negative,  connection to it. If Harry had somehow signaled Thomas who then opened the Portal, that might have made more sense. But maybe it was enough that Thomas knew where to go, where the portal would appear while Harry had an image in his mind of Thomas standing there waiting fir him.

Or one of the place's many connections, connected to Thomas who had had a negative experience there. Harry opened a portal to "Thomas" for lack of a better word. Thomas was standing by to cross over using the same connection.


Also, knnn
I was trying to say exactly what you said here...
"a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh". 

Harry told Morgan and Molly that it let out "a couple of steps from a path in the NN that happens to lead to one of the NN connections to the entrance to Edinburgh".  So they would be able to zone-in on that connection. He didnt tell them "it takes you to edenburgh".

Offline knnn

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #109 on: May 01, 2014, 04:40:21 PM »
IIRC Harry said that Thomas should have been able to open the portal between the NeverNever because he had an emotional,  though negative,  connection to it. If Harry had somehow signaled Thomas who then opened the Portal, that might have made more sense. But maybe it was enough that Thomas knew where to go, where the portal would appear while Harry had an image in his mind of Thomas standing there waiting fir him.

Yup, GP establishes that Thomas can open portals in certain places. 

The timing had to be in Harry's control, so I guess he thought doing it himself would be easier/faster.  Harry having an image of Thomas in mind means that you have to posit that the portal spell can also link to dynamic targets on the fly.  That spell is now becoming *really* versatile.

You can still find enough wiggle room to make it all plausible, but...

Maybe.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #110 on: May 01, 2014, 04:44:13 PM »
Or one of the place's many connections, connected to Thomas who had had a negative experience there. Harry opened a portal to "Thomas" for lack of a better word. Thomas was standing by to cross over using the same connection.

But then why did Thomas have to go anywhere?  Opening a portal to "Thomas" should work no matter where Thomas is standing in the Nevernever.

Then you have the implications.  Why should it only work on Thomas?  If Marcone was in the NN, would Harry be able to open a portal from Demonreach directly to Marcone?  After all, he had similar traumatic experience there.  How about opening a portal from the place on the island where Molly became the Winter Lady directly to Molly?
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Offline Gigglestomp

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #111 on: May 01, 2014, 04:44:42 PM »
Yup, GP establishes that Thomas can open portals in certain places. 

The timing had to be in Harry's control, so I guess he thought doing it himself would be easier/faster.  Harry having an image of Thomas in mind means that you have to posit that the portal spell can also link to dynamic targets on the fly.  That spell is now becoming *really* versatile.

You can still find enough wiggle room to make it all plausible, but...

Maybe.

It's not really the spell thats versitile. I look at it like "Reality is versitile". Basically reality changes connections constantly. All the spell does is capitalize on a connection specified.

Example:  Harry opens a portal using a connection to thomas - > the connection was already established by reality, the spell needed to do none of this - > the portal follows the connection - > the gate to the NN opens and Thomas is standing on the other side.

Offline Gigglestomp

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #112 on: May 01, 2014, 04:46:18 PM »
But then why did Thomas have to go anywhere?  Opening a portal to "Thomas" should work no matter where Thomas is standing in the Nevernever.

Yep! But Thomas had to get into the Nevernever at a place close to his own heart - probably a brothel or a strip club. So he had to open it in a certain place. Once he was there though, this connection should be viable.

Then you have the implications.  Why should it only work on Thomas?  If Marcone was in the NN, would Harry be able to open a portal from Demonreach directly to Marcone?  After all, he had similar traumatic experience there.  How about opening a portal from the place on the island where Molly became the Winter Lady directly to Molly?

Yes, I think so. That seems correct. At least based on my theory. Which is just a theory. They would have to be in the NN though for the protal to be created.


This could spell bad news in some cases. For example, if someone wanted to get to Ivy while she was in the Nevernever, there is no place she could hide. As long as they knew where *exactly* to start from, and then capitalized on the traumatic connection ivy experienced, they could theoretically open a protal right to her, wherever she was. Unless she somehow overcame the trauma and the place was no longer significant to her.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 04:59:20 PM by Gigglestomp »

Offline Tami Seven

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #113 on: May 01, 2014, 05:06:33 PM »
Alright, so there are two components to opening a portal into the NeverNever. First is intent/destination, knowing where you want to go. Second is location, the sympathetic alignment of Real World locations with their NeverNever equivalents.

In WN, Thomas had to travel through the NeverNever to get to the Deeps. He couldn't just open a direct portal that lead straight to the Deeps from some other RW location. Only someone with the power of Odin or Mab could do that. So, Thomas knew his destination, he knew where to enter the NeverNever and what path to take. He could have even opened the portal to Deeps himself.

Harry had it trickier. He didn't know what was on the other side of the portal, only that whatever it was someone would be waiting there for him. Thomas found the location with the strongest Sympathetic alignment to the Deeps, Harry simply opened the portal between the two. It may have helped that he knew Thomas would be there.

So, I had it backwards. Harry didn't have to do much. Thomas was the one who lead Marcone and Karrin and company to the exact spot where he knew the portal would appear.
War Cry -
"Thomas doesn't fight back, not even for an instant. In the end, it's not common sense that pulls me back from the brink, or even fear of being devoured by the Shoggoth....It's the look of unshakeable trust in my Brother's eyes, even as my hands tighten around his throat."

Offline knnn

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #114 on: May 01, 2014, 05:35:57 PM »
So, I had it backwards. Harry didn't have to do much. Thomas was the one who lead Marcone and Karrin and company to the exact spot where he knew the portal would appear.

I don't have the books in front of me, but did Harry open a portal in the exact spot the near-sacrifice took place?
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Offline knnn

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #115 on: May 01, 2014, 05:37:05 PM »
Yes, I think so. That seems correct. At least based on my theory. Which is just a theory. They would have to be in the NN though for the protal to be created.

Well then, why couldn't Harry follow Peabody by opening a portal in the same place Peabody did and specify "I wanna follow Peabody"?
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Offline Gigglestomp

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #116 on: May 01, 2014, 05:44:55 PM »
Well then, why couldn't Harry follow Peabody by opening a portal in the same place Peabody did and specify "I wanna follow Peabody"?

Peabody didn't have a strong connection to that area. It was just the first place he could manage to open a portal. Thinking "Thomas" doesn't magically establish a connection. It just chooses from available connections. I don't see why peabody would be connected to that particular spot. Remember in Thomas' case he was almost sacrificed.

Also, I think Harry said peabody would open a way, and then from the NN side he would open another way out to the real world. Harry wouldn't know where in the real world he would go, or how that place connected to that place in the NN. If he didn't catch him he was fucked.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #117 on: May 02, 2014, 01:18:09 AM »
Personally I though Thomas's Wayfaring ability was less a matter of him opening portals directly to his target, and more that once he was in the NN he was able to sense where he needed to travel (in the NN) to be able to open a way back.  Essentially his traumatic personal experience (or the locations that resonate with his Hunger, the other criteria he can use) acts as a link the Hunger can follow basically just like harry's tracking spells operate
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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #118 on: May 02, 2014, 01:43:03 AM »
Personally I though Thomas's Wayfaring ability was less a matter of him opening portals directly to his target, and more that once he was in the NN he was able to sense where he needed to travel (in the NN) to be able to open a way back.  Essentially his traumatic personal experience (or the locations that resonate with his Hunger, the other criteria he can use) acts as a link the Hunger can follow basically just like harry's tracking spells operate

Yeah, nothing states that Thomas can't open a portal anywhere. As far as I know doesn't know where in the NN he will end up. Only that, once inside he can find his way back out.
War Cry -
"Thomas doesn't fight back, not even for an instant. In the end, it's not common sense that pulls me back from the brink, or even fear of being devoured by the Shoggoth....It's the look of unshakeable trust in my Brother's eyes, even as my hands tighten around his throat."

Offline Gigglestomp

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Re: Reference: X compared to Y = possible Discrepancy?
« Reply #119 on: May 02, 2014, 02:55:20 PM »
Yeah, nothing states that Thomas can't open a portal anywhere. As far as I know doesn't know where in the NN he will end up. Only that, once inside he can find his way back out.

Thomas himself states that he can only cross over in places that he feels comfortable in - like when he and Michael crossed back over in the gentlemen's club.