Orbius just gave me an idea!

[sinker]

I know, bear with me for a second.

Orbius is a magic grapple right?

Grapples can drag someone a zone as a supplemental action.

Bam, there's a completely RAW, if unnecessarily complicated way of moving someone with magic.

Has this occurred to anyone else? Anyone use it in play? Am I the last to figure this out?

[sinker]

Now I'm imagining a really great scene where some hungry thing is drawing the players towards it's gaping maw each turn and they're all struggling to resist while fighting it.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

Thaumaturgy or some sort of Sponsored Magic necessary if you wanted anything but straight-line movement, I'd think.  Evocation can't give you the full range of a grapple, just some effects that could be adjudicated as one.  See the side-bar on YW251.

Fun idea for the beastie with the Come Hither mojo though.

[sinker]

You'd be surprised at how easily a straight line can achieve one's goals, especially since one could force the target in one straight line, and then force them in another direction in a following exchange. And I see no reason why it's being a true grapple matters. It's an offensive block that is capable of moving the target, ergo it's close enough as makes little difference.

Now I'm envisioning all sorts of ways one could do this thematically. An earth wizard having the earth jut up to encase someone and then pulling them towards him. A water wizard using a torrent of water to force the target in a direction. Spirit and air are fairly obvious and less cinematic. The only issue I could see is with fire, though I suppose you could use someone's fear of fire for a similar effect.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

It doesn't matter all that much, I was just refining not contradicting.

[Haru]

Hmm, now you got me thinking about Orbius again...

We had a discussion not long ago about rote spells and supplemental actions. In addition to the mundane grapple rules, there might be a way to work out an Orbius, that is not quite as powerful as the one in the book.

If you want to inflict stress or move someone you have in a grapple you have to take a supplemental action, reducing your might roll by 1. Why doesn't this apply to the spell as well?

The spell has an effective power of 3 AND it inflicts stress. The same grapple using might would need to roll a 4 to accomplish this. Doesn't really seem fair. Without the stress, a grapple is just a block to all actions, nothing wrong with that. If you want to use the grapple rules on that, reduce shifts as needed. And suddenly, if you want to move a target and inflict stress, it only has to roll +1 to break free, which should be easily done.

It would still be a powerful spell, but to be actually useful, you would need to put a lot more shifts into power and have less left for duration.

[Sanctaphrax]

What Haru said.

Also, why would you ever use a limited block like Harry's shield spell in a 1v1 fight when universal blocks like Orbius are available?

And why would you ever use a non-grapple universal block when grappling universal blocks are available?

And why don't you have to tag an aspect to activate Orbius the way you do to grapple normally?

And why can Orbius be extended in duration and area-of-effect when normal grapples cannot?

The words above should serve as a summary of the reasons for my hatred of Orbius.

But if you ignore the general awfulness of Orbius, your idea is pretty good.

As a partial fix for Orbius, I suggest having it not block any actions other than ones taken specifically to remove it.

[UmbraLux]

I'm not going to try and defend Orbius (Particularly not with Santaphrax's threats!   ) but one thing may be worth pointing out. 

I tend to interpret the "attacking spell determines defense" functionally rather than by desire.  In other words, a block against all actions can potentially be broken by any action...which means the victim will likely choose his best skill to break it.  It makes such wide blocks somewhat less desirable...and less effective.

[Cyberchihuahua]

You'd be surprised at how easily a straight line can achieve one's goals, especially since one could force the target in one straight line, and then force them in another direction in a following exchange. And I see no reason why it's being a true grapple matters. It's an offensive block that is capable of moving the target, ergo it's close enough as makes little difference.

Now I'm envisioning all sorts of ways one could do this thematically. An earth wizard having the earth jut up to encase someone and then pulling them towards him. A water wizard using a torrent of water to force the target in a direction. Spirit and air are fairly obvious and less cinematic. The only issue I could see is with fire, though I suppose you could use someone's fear of fire for a similar effect.

Maybe change the skill. Trading Brawn(?) for Discapline when defending against fire?

[Watson]

What would need to change for a "Grapple spell" to work and not be unreasonably powerful? One suggestion is that, when casting the spell, the wizard chooses whether the additional effect is to cause stress or to move (to copy the "supplemental-type-action" of the regular grapple rules) and pays a certain number of shifts to be allowed to do this. I think that one shift of power for one physical stress is too little, so perhaps two shifts of power. The same cost would be for moving a target one zone.

Using the grapple rules and the Supernatural Powers related to strength, one could cause more than one stress per exchange as well as being able to move a target more than one zone. This could also be allowed for the grapple done through Evocation at 2 shifts of power per point of stress or 2 shifts of power per zone moved.

Could the "move" and "stress" be combined, or is it one or the other?

An example:

Orbius v2.0
Type: Spirit evocation, offensive block; adjudicated as a grapple
Power: 9 shifts—3 for effect, 2 for duration, 4 for two points of stress per exchange after the first exchange.
Control: On the first round, roll Discipline plus applicable specializations and focus items
Target: One target in line-of-sight, inflicting physical stress
Duration: Three exchanges total
Opposed by: Target’s Endurance skill. Magical blocks might be effective in the first round; armor is ineffective.
Effect: The first round establishes the grapple. Each round thereafter, the target rolls Endurance. If the roll fails to beat the spell’s effect (Good +3), the target suffers two shifts of physical stress as he suffocates. Armor is ineffective. This spell does not affect creatures that do not need to breathe.

[ways and means]

Also, why would you ever use a limited block like Harry's shield spell in a 1v1 fight when universal blocks like Orbius are available?

To defend against attacks coming from multiple zones. Universal Block (or block on multiple types of action) are reasonable IMO given the versatility of magic shown in the novel, though I have to admit from as game balance perspective that adding the stress as well does seem a bit overpowered.

[polkaneverdies]

I think you overlooked a key  part of sancta's question. He specified in a one on one fight.

[The Mighty Buzzard]

As a partial fix for Orbius, I suggest having it not block any actions other than ones taken specifically to remove it.

It doesn't.  By the description, the only thing it blocks is breathing.  Adjudicated as a grapple doesn't necessarily mean treat it completely as a grapple, it likely only meant work the applicable mechanics that way.

That make it a happier spell for you?

[polkaneverdies]

A lot of people seem to interpret it the way Sancta hates. Could someone refresh my memory of the origins of this spell?

[Sanctaphrax]

I do prefer that interpretation.

Even if it is still slightly broken.

But it does not seem to agree with everyone else's reading of the spell.

Maybe because blocking breathing doesn't really work. You can only block actions, as far as I know.

And if it's just a block against breathing, then it probably shouldn't have the "1 stress per round" mechanics that it has.

Really, the entire idea of a block that is resisted makes little sense to me. Blocks are there, and they do nothing unless you do something to oppose them.