Author Topic: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**  (Read 221022 times)

Offline itari

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #150 on: July 29, 2011, 04:20:09 PM »
Mab is not lying, Uriel is.

Uriel is lying when he says Mab can't change him, and Harry knows he's lying. But the truth of his seven words is irellevant. They are encouraging, and they let Harry realize he can still fight becominng a monster, even beholden to Mab.
I started a very similar thread not long ago ;)

Offline Lord Kasavin

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #151 on: July 29, 2011, 04:31:09 PM »
If the shadow was not lasciel, I would be curious to know how it got into the church... Can fallen enter holy found with impunity?

Forget the Church angle, the Fallen are not allowed to interact with mortals, period.  The only two exceptions is 1) a mortal summoned the Fallen first (which I think is Chancy in Fool Moon), or through the mortal will and body of a Knight of the Blackened Denarian.  Church, grocery store, or Lady Gaga concert, the Fallen have to take a hands off approach.

However, it was never explained why they had to keep their hands off.  Maybe it was God's will end of story, or maybe the laws of the universe insist upon it.  Or maybe its because interacting with mortals outside the two exceptions is pointless, since then the good guys can return the favor.  Likewise, this might be why Uriel so rarely acts directly, since the "bad guys" are allowed to rebalance the scale if he subverts human will and choice.  That being said, both sides apparently are allowed to make sales pitches occasionally.

Offline itari

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #152 on: July 29, 2011, 04:38:51 PM »
Chauncy is not a Fallen. He's a demon.

Offline DEA

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #153 on: July 29, 2011, 06:01:15 PM »
On the subject of Mab lying and Uriel confirming it:

Mab is not lying, Uriel is.

Harry confirms that Mab is absolutely capable of changing him. He just makes her realize that doing so is not without consequences, that the very wiles and guilefullness that leads him to defy her are the very qualities that makes her want him as her Knight in the first place.

Uriel is lying when he says Mab can't change him, and Harry knows he's lying. But the truth of his seven words is irellevant. They are encouraging, and they let Harry realize he can still fight becominng a monster, even beholden to Mab.

Uriel has to balance the scales against the shadow' lie. The shadows lie clouded Harry's ability to choose to keewp fighting, to never give up. Uriel's lie let Harry see that there were options. (IE that even though Mab definately could change him, he also could definately convince her not to.)

I think you make an excellent point here, but I actually don't think either of them is lying.

Mab says she can "shape him as [she] please[s ]," but from her perspective, this means that she can get him to do what she wants. Which she can.

Harry's contention is that this is true, but based on Uriel's whisper that Mab cannot change him, and Uriel's earlier insistence that Harry "is a soul, [but has ] a body," she can ONLY change his behavior, not his soul.

Now, certainly, when a human being is told by an authority figure to do something, they will usually do it, even if it seems extreme (see: Milgram's experiments), and a human being placed in a role will often come to embrace that role and the traits stereotypically associated with it (see: the Zimbardo or Stanford Prison Experiment), and that people can derive their beliefs and attitudes based on perceptions of their own behavior (see: Bem's self-perception theory) . It is not, however, a guarantee. Mab admits that what serves her "purpose" is a free-thinking individual mortal to carry out her dictates. Harry's response, based on his understanding of Uriel's whisper, is that he will carry out her instructions to the letter, but go no further, take no initiative, and never, ever do things that she wants him to do on his own, using his own free will. He will never choose to commit these acts. And that is how Harry subverts her plan for him: he simply uses the threat of never making another choice to rob her of the champion she wants.

Of course, she's probably running a long game that in Book 16 or 17 will come back and bite Harry in the ass. I've learned a few things over the past 13 or so books.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 06:53:39 PM by DEA »

Offline napgirl

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #154 on: July 29, 2011, 06:42:51 PM »
i agree with DEA- i don't think either Uriel or Mab is lying. although, as previous posters have pointed out-the Sihde are perfectly capable of being deceptive even though the fact of they can't utter something that is not true.
meanhwile, the parasite? is it lash? because that is pretty much was her energy was, since her energy was dependent on harry's. and demonreach...that whole relationship is going to be interesting for sure. i think both he and mab are playing a long game.
and i think cold days will not only refer to his now being wk, but also the reception he will be facing from thomas and murph up on his return. maybe molly too- that relationship will be very interesting. not necessarily on the romance front, but from the guilt perspective of harry (despite his trust in her) and the emotional toll it has taken on her (despite her love/trust).

Offline Lord Kasavin

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #155 on: July 29, 2011, 07:12:37 PM »
Chauncy is not a Fallen. He's a demon.

The Fallen are demons.  Remember, demon is just a generic term for supernatural and evil entity.  Thus the Fallen, the Outsiders, and others are types of demons.  While Fool Moon doesn't explicitly call Chauncy a Fallen, it was only the second book and the Fallen weren't introduced until Death Masks.

Offline itari

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #156 on: July 29, 2011, 07:19:47 PM »
The Fallen are demons.
Which doesn't mean that Chauncy is a Fallen. Wolvess are carnivores, and felines are carnivores too, but wolves aren't felines.

The Fallen have names ending with -el (because they were angels). Chauncy's full name, IIRC, is Chaunzaggoroth (sp?). Besides, I really doubt that Harry's circle would have been capable of imprisoning a Fallen.

Offline Vikermac

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #157 on: July 29, 2011, 07:34:01 PM »
The Fallen are demons.  Remember, demon is just a generic term for supernatural and evil entity.  Thus the Fallen, the Outsiders, and others are types of demons.  While Fool Moon doesn't explicitly call Chauncy a Fallen, it was only the second book and the Fallen weren't introduced until Death Masks.

Eh...I was under the impression that the Fallen, like the Outsiders, where something different.  Demonic, maybe, but they weren't vanilla demons like Chauncy.  The Fallen were angels, I'm not sure all demons were once angels.  Some things are just evil from the start.

Offline ethanjf

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #158 on: July 29, 2011, 07:36:21 PM »
Which doesn't mean that Chauncy is a Fallen. Wolvess are carnivores, and felines are carnivores too, but wolves aren't felines.

The Fallen have names ending with -el (because they were angels). Chauncy's full name, IIRC, is Chaunzaggoroth (sp?). Besides, I really doubt that Harry's circle would have been capable of imprisoning a Fallen.

I agree; we don't know much about the taxonomy of Hell in the Dresdenverse, but a lot of conceptions of it make a distinction between the Fallen Angels and ordinary demons, creatures of hate and pain but who were never angelic. It seems to me like that might be the case here -- Chauncy is an ordinary plain-vanilla demon.

Offline UnRiel

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #159 on: July 29, 2011, 08:02:43 PM »
Harry does not need to reside in the NN at Winter's court full time as Summer Knight established. Clearly the Summer and Winter Courts commute with the change of seasons when they feel that it is appropriate to reside in the mortal realm at all. Just consider what Mab's presence sustaining Harry into May on Demonreach did to Chicago's weather. I inferred that Aurora's Chicago penthouse was her digs when summer arrived in the northern hemisphere, but these Queens and Ladies have global responsibilities and as likely global residences. The respective Knights can be assumed to require similar mobility and therefore several residences.

The question remains, how long will Harry remain the Winter Knight? Will it be only for the next book? I suspect so. 10 more books of Winter Knight Harry doesn't sound to me like Jim's M.O. for the series.

I look forward to the challenge of the Fomor. Harry has his work cut out for him since his triggering the destruction of the Red Court caused such a power vacuum.

As Harry's own power grows, so do the challenges and the adversaries. Another reason I suspect the Winter Knight's mantle is temporary is that it makes Harry too powerful, too soon. Just as Harry temporarily lost the advantage of Lash's services and Hellfire before he was gifted Soulfire by Uriel, Harry may effectively be at a level with the senior council of the White Court. I wonder if he will openly defy the Merlyn now and with the knowledge that he's not just bluffing. Anyway, before he can develop his natural abilities further, he'll need to be released from the WK mantle. Surely the custodianship of Demonreach will contribute to this growth.

I enjoyed this very much but I won't put it on a par with the previous 2-3 books. I really view it as more of a wrap up of books 1-11 that Changes was thought to be or in other words Part II of Changes. Still sometimes there can only be so much sustained action and the value of this chapter is the humility and maturity it is sure to have instilled in Harry's character. Let the saga continue!

Thanks Jim. Can we hope that Winter Knight will resume the regular April 1 schedule (not getting my hopes up too high).

Offline LordScythe

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #160 on: July 29, 2011, 08:48:38 PM »
Actually Harry says in one of the later books he is in the top 12 or 13 in sheer raw magical power.  You have to remember that most of the White Council has sat in relative peace since the Seelie accords were signed.  They do not go out and seek trouble so they will gain in experience much slower.  It has been said in many of the books that Harry has faced more things in his short time than most wizards 100 years his senior.  If you use the RPG system that they developed and chart the experience he has gained in each book it is downright spooky.  He may not be as refined as the Senior Council but I bet he could hold his own against anyone off the senior council.  There is a player on the rpg section of this board who has done stats for all the main characters including Harry.  His Harry is set after a certain book then he adds info at the end up to changes.

Whoops messed up the quotes...


« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 08:56:38 PM by LordScythe »
"Go be STUPID on your own time!" Lord Scythe

Offline Mr.Marmalade5

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #161 on: July 29, 2011, 08:58:01 PM »
Just as Harry temporarily lost the advantage of Lash's services and Hellfire before he was gifted Soulfire by Uriel, Harry may effectively be at a level with the senior council of the White Court.
The Senior Council, part of the White Council, of wizards is not the same thing as the White Court of vampires.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 09:01:32 PM by Mr.Marmalade5 »

Offline Mr.Marmalade5

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #162 on: July 29, 2011, 09:11:16 PM »
Er...Is it a coincidence that the last time a skinwalker was mentioned confronting a warden, that warden was Morgan, who got rid of it at a nuclear test site, which might have occurred sometime during WW2, when such things were being done, and that it was during WW2 that Kemmler was last killed? Idk. This whole apprentice of his (Kemmler), and the skull with that knowledge Bob, plus this last book apparently reinforcing a bunch of old stuff, maybe pulling it together, plus stuff the author has said out of the books (now being mentioned in some way in Ghost Story), sort of seem to be setting something up. Too much Kemmler, Black Council, and supernatural entities, plus whatever reason the Winter Queen is in dire need of help such as a Winter Knight could provide of late/her resources seem to be stressed + all that attack on Arctis Tor stuff, etc.....
*Before Dresden, I mean.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 09:14:08 PM by Mr.Marmalade5 »

Offline itari

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #163 on: July 29, 2011, 09:37:47 PM »
Er...Is it a coincidence that the last time a skinwalker was mentioned confronting a warden, that warden was Morgan, who got rid of it at a nuclear test site, which might have occurred sometime during WW2, when such things were being done, and that it was during WW2 that Kemmler was last killed?
AFAIR Morgan nuked a skinwalker in the 50s, and Kemmler was killed for good in 1961.

Offline UnRiel

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Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« Reply #164 on: July 29, 2011, 11:01:51 PM »
The Senior Council, part of the White Council, of wizards is not the same thing as the White Court of vampires.

No of course I know that, was but a slip.