Author Topic: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders  (Read 17434 times)

Offline Serack

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Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« on: July 15, 2011, 06:10:23 PM »
So the runes on the shack and Lighthouse have come up in the 1k+ post long GS preview chapter thread and DominicJ made a post that really got me thinking...  The thoughts are getting a bit research heavy, and experience with my Lash Theory post shows that my posts that cite a lot of WoJ and text read better if they list those quotes at the end, so I'll use that format.

So in the earlier discussion we were talking about how Jim has said that the runes were prehistoric,woj#1 which strongly implies that they ain't human (being writing, and prehistoric meaning before written history), and DominicJ made this comment:

The Naagloshi came from somewhere, the teach humans the "right" path.
Maybe that lighthouse is the way home, and its noqw barred to him?

So his fellow naagloshi wrote it?

Ok, so this idea meshes pretty well with the description of the origins of the Naagloshii in TCxrt#1 which even states that they were probably prehistoric.  Here's the thing though.  It's implied pretty strongly in SmF that what's on the other side from inside the lighthouse is pretty nasty.xrt#3  

However, if you take Harry's description of the Old ones from Dead Beatxrt#2 about how they were apparently banished from our reality, and ask who dunit, maybe the Holy People participated in it.  Also, where did they go themselves?  Maybe when they did this banishing, they also left reality themselves (See Jim's description of Benevolent beingswoj#2), and also reside on the other side at the lighthouse (that last bit is a big maybe).  

The thing is, The info we have about where the Mordite infused Mistfiend came from,xrt#4 and WoJ about the "Outside, and mordite"woj#3 make me think the "Outside" is really just a far reach of the NN, which is also possibly where the "Holy People" left for by choice...  I dunno, it all gets a little fuzzy...

I'd like to be able to tie in Jim's comments about how the title of Wardens wasn't originally plurral, and how that seems to be important to the cluebat we got from Eb's journal about "that particular Mantle" but I haven't figured out where it fits with all that...

Below are the WoJ and Text references

WoJ #1
Can you tell us more about the runes on the cottage and the lighthouse?
They were not put there by Demonreach; they have been there a very long time.  They are pre-Council.  They’re a prehistoric script, actually.  Harry could have figured out the script if he’d had the comic book.

WoJ #2
Quote from: 2008 ComicCon Playing God pannel
How do you come up with the bounds between Characters free will and the Divine Hand?
For the Dresden Files, the whole point of The Almighty positive good forces that are out there is that free will is important and they respect that and you've gotta have it and use it.  That's the entire point.  They are a force of freedom.  And it's the bad guys who are going around doing whatever they can to abrogate free will.  So for me, where you draw the line is what defines where good stops and evil starts is by how much you're taking away free will and how much you're enabling it.


WoJ #3
This posits the question.  Besides are reality and nevernever on the other side of the veil, is there anything else?  If nevernever is the biggest place, does it encompass all that isn't our world, our reality?  I was assume no because I don't think that Mordite (the stuff that the Archive brought to the duel) comes from Nevernever, but from outside everything.

Remember that everything Harry tells you is from Harry's point of view. :)  As far as Harry knows, that's the way it is--with the clarification that yes, there is an Outside (where Outsiders originate) and it is a Very Bad Place.  The mordite is, quite simply, matter from the Outside.

I'm not saying "that's all there is, there ain't no more."  But as far as Harry knows at this point in the books, that's pretty close.

Jim

Text References:
Excerpt #1
Quote from: TC ch.29
"According to some of the stories of the Navajo, the naagloshii were originally messengers of the Holy People, when they were first teaching humans the Blessing Way."
...
"the original messengers, the naagloshii, were supposed to go with the Holy People when they departed the mortal world.  But some of them didn't.  They stayed here, and their selfishness correpted the power the Holy People gave them. Viola, Shangnasty."
..."When did this happen"
"Tough to say," Bob said. "The traditional Navajo don't see time the way most mortals do, which makes them arguably smarter than the rest of you onkeys.  But it's safe to assume prehistory.  Several millennia."

Excerpt #2
Quote from: DB ch.31
Outsiders, though, were so rarely spoken of that they were all but a rumor.  I wasn't really clear on all the details, but the outsiders had been servants and foot soldiers of the Old Ones, an ancient race of demons or gods who once ruled the mortal world, but how had apparently been cast out and locked away from our reality.

Excerpt #3
Quote from: SmF ch.43
"Cross into the Nevernever from where you're standing?"  Nichodemus asked.  "You'd e better off asking the Russian to put a bullet through your head for you.  I know what lives on the other side."
Given that they'd chosen this location for the greater circle precisely because it was a source of intense dark energy, I had no trouble believing that it connected to som enasty portions of the Nevernever.  There was every chance that Nicodemus was not bluffing.

Excerpt #4
Quote from: TC ch.49
The Senior Council managed to contain and banish the mordite-infused mistfiend, a rare and dangerous gaseous being from the far reaches of the Nevernever
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:22:16 PM by Serack »
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Demonreach
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 06:25:07 PM »
So in the earlier discussion we were talking about how Jim has said that the runes were prehistoric,woj#1 which strongly implies that they ain't human (being writing, and prehistoric meaning before written history), and DominicJ made this comment:
Not... quite.  There have been glyphs and other forms or writing that predate a written history as we understand it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_signs for example.  Since they're runes on the building, it's entirely possible that they were just symbols of warding and protection, carved by humans, but not necessarily the same thing as spoken words like we'd understand them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiahu_symbols also has similar symbols from an even earlier time period.

Offline teamlash

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2011, 06:32:12 PM »
I always wonder (okay, hope) whether stepping through to the NN on Demonreach leads to the place where the -real- fallen are stuck (like the cavern mentioned in the book of Enoch, for example). I know that there's a fallen angel in each of the blackened Denari, but I never really saw that as the 'physical' angel.

Lash was a copy, right? Well I've always thought that the angels inside the coins were just the spiritual aspect.
So maybe their bodies/physical forms are hidden somewhere in the NN? That probably made no sense, excuse my rambling xD
Maybe there are other dark beings stored there, and Maggie was supposed to guard them?

Either that, or it's a gateway to the outer gates, the ones that the outsiders live behind (as you mentioned)

OH, could the old ones have been the watchers/nephilim?

I'm going to stop hijacking your research and dive into a pile of musty books, my apologies xD
Thanks for making me think though ^_^
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Offline Technobuilder

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2011, 06:33:56 PM »
In reference to the WoJ talking about the lighthouse runes, Jim says Harry could figure it out if he had the comic book.
I was under the impression he was referring to one of the old Lovecraftian Horror type comics. (Implying Outsiders)

Also, talking about the mantle of "The Warden" I got the impression that Demonreach may be a prison a sort... or sorts.

Offline Serack

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Re: Demonreach
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2011, 06:34:58 PM »
Not... quite.  There have been glyphs and other forms or writing that predate a written history as we understand it.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_signs for example.  Since they're runes on the building, it's entirely possible that they were just symbols of warding and protection, carved by humans, but not necessarily the same thing as spoken words like we'd understand them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiahu_symbols also has similar symbols from an even earlier time period.

I actually have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Writing_system#History_of_writing_systems up in another tab right now.

And in the aforementioned discussion I did say: (Emphasis added)

The idea My point is if it's prehistoric, then by definition means it came before humans had writing, and thus the writing is non-human, not pre-human

Edit:  Although I suppose it is possible that it could fit in some fuzzy area where Humans had script, but hadn't bothered to record any history with it...

I think Landing made the strongest argument for "prehistoric" strongly implying it wasn't written by humans, with this quote from wikipedia.

Quote
Prehistory (Latin, præ = before, historia = history/story) is the period before recorded history. Paul Tournal originally coined the term anté-historique[1] in describing the finds he had made in the caves of southern France.[2] It came into use in France in the 1830s to describe the time before writing, and the word "prehistoric" was introduced into English by Daniel Wilson in 1851.[3][4]

I'm not taking it as a given that it wasn't human script.  There's plenty of wiggle room out of that.  It certainly is interesting to think that it could have been written by the "Holy People" though.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:39:53 PM by Serack »
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Offline Serack

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2011, 06:38:33 PM »
I always wonder (okay, hope) whether stepping through to the NN on Demonreach leads to the place where the -real- fallen are stuck (like the cavern mentioned in the book of Enoch, for example). I know that there's a fallen angel in each of the blackened Denari, but I never really saw that as the 'physical' angel.

Lash was a copy, right? Well I've always thought that the angels inside the coins were just the spiritual aspect.
So maybe their bodies/physical forms are hidden somewhere in the NN? That probably made no sense, excuse my rambling xD
Maybe there are other dark beings stored there, and Maggie was supposed to guard them?

Either that, or it's a gateway to the outer gates, the ones that the outsiders live behind (as you mentioned)

OH, could the old ones have been the watchers/nephilim?

I'm going to stop hijacking your research and dive into a pile of musty books, my apologies xD
Thanks for making me think though ^_^

Meh, this is total hypothesis, but I think it's possible, that being spirit beings, physical dimensions don't really matter, and their "bodies" are in the coins too.  I kind of imagine pockets of the NN trapped in the coins kinda the opposite of how a dream can create a pocket in the NN...

In reference to the WoJ talking about the lighthouse runes, Jim says Harry could figure it out if he had the comic book.
I was under the impression he was referring to one of the old Lovecraftian Horror type comics. (Implying Outsiders)

Also, talking about the mantle of "The Warden" I got the impression that Demonreach may be a prison a sort... or sorts.

It is generally accepted that Jim was referring to some script found in Welcome to the Jungle, the first DF "graphic novel".
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:41:46 PM by Serack »
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 06:41:43 PM »
Fair enough.  I think of Prehistory being before we have records from, not necessarily before records were kept.  I suppose without WoJ on what he considers prehistory, it's impossible to tell, really.

Offline Lash Dresden

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 06:44:52 PM »
It is generally accepted that Jim was referring to some script found in Welcome to the Jungle, the first DF "graphic novel".
I own Welcome to the Jungle, and I've obviously read it a couple of times, but I don't remember -- does Harry (or Bob) identify the runes, or are they just there?  Bob talks about the type of ritual that's being put together, but is that based off or runes, or something else?
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Offline Serack

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2011, 06:47:52 PM »
Fair enough.  I think of Prehistory being before we have records from, not necessarily before records were kept.  I suppose without WoJ on what he considers prehistory, it's impossible to tell, really.

Or we might have to wait until we get more info in the books :D

I own Welcome to the Jungle, and I've obviously read it a couple of times, but I don't remember -- does Harry (or Bob) identify the runes, or are they just there?  Bob talks about the type of ritual that's being put together, but is that based off or runes, or something else?

(below is a modified version of a post I made in the other topic)

The person that took the notes for that WoJ Thought it had something to do with some graphetti in underchicago, but I'm pretty sure it had to do with some script on some small vessels used for collecting blood for an ascension ritual.  

If I remember right, something in the comic identified the script as either in the language of the people that occupied parts of Greece before the people we currently think of as greek took over (and they were subsequently displaced into some rather crappy outlying Greecian areas that ended up being the home of the bulk of Hectate worship) or it was ancient ancient mesopotameanish... (as in presumerain)

I researched it a while ago, and remember looking into both at the time but don't remember the context for each... My copy of WttJ isn't with me at the moment though.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:51:08 PM by Serack »
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Offline teamlash

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2011, 06:51:01 PM »
Meh, this is total hypothesis, but I think it's possible, that being spirit beings, physical dimensions don't really matter, and their "bodies" are in the coins too.  I kind of imagine pockets of the NN trapped in the coins kinda the opposite of how a dream can create a pocket in the NN...


It's a very good hypothesis, and the basis of a lot of angel-based mythology. I'm just a wishful thinker :D

So would that mean that if the Outsiders (hypothesising of course) were the ones to be imprisoned beyond demon reach, that they would have to be physical creatures at least in part?
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Offline Serack

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2011, 06:57:23 PM »
It's a very good hypothesis, and the basis of a lot of angel-based mythology. I'm just a wishful thinker :D

Oh yah, angels on heads of pins and stuff...  I'm not sure which is more productive, those discussions or this one...  ;D

So would that mean that if the Outsiders (hypothesising of course) were the ones to be imprisoned beyond demon reach, that they would have to be physical creatures at least in part?

oih vey.

There are some reallllly odd concepts swirling around in my head that try to deal with that question.

Jim has confirmed that the Outsiders are Lovecraftianesque.  Some of his monsters were so incorporeal they were flat out colors.  I'm not so sure the term "Physical" is completely ascribable to something from the same place as the mordite described in SK.

Quote from: DM ch.29
"...It's not from our world"
"It's extraterrestrial?"
"You do not understand, Miss Rodriguez," Ortega said quietly.  "Mordite is not from this galaxy, or this universe.  It is not of our reality."
...I nodded.  "It's from Outside."

I get the idea that their existance is rather anthetical to ours...  Hence their powers being associated with a different ascerction of reality at the end of WK.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 06:59:01 PM by Serack »
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2011, 06:58:36 PM »
Or we might have to wait until we get more info in the books :D
Well yes, but that's like finding out who lives in the white house third from the end with what kind of pet and what they do by knocking on the door and taking a census.  No fun at all.

It's always possible that I'm right about the prehistory, and that it's from a time when humans had writing, or at least pictographs for recording information/warnings, and that they were still put there by some non-human entity.

Another question though, if the runes are prehistoric, that means the Lighthouse is prehistoric.  So who made that?  The earliest recorded evidence of a light house is the Pharos, but even that was only built in 300 BC (or so).  We'd be looking at something probably 2-3 millenia older than that if it's prehistoric.

Offline Serack

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2011, 07:00:46 PM »
Another question though, if the runes are prehistoric, that means the Lighthouse is prehistoric.  So who made that?  The earliest recorded evidence of a light house is the Pharos, but even that was only built in 300 BC (or so).  We'd be looking at something probably 2-3 millenia older than that if it's prehistoric.

Or maybe the stones reused to make the building, are actually not in their first reusage...
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Offline Lash Dresden

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2011, 07:05:41 PM »
The person that took the notes for that WoJ Thought it had something to do with some graphetti in underchicago, but I'm pretty sure it had to do with some script on some small vessels used for collecting blood for an ascension ritual.  
This is what I was thinking, as well.  The script around the mouth of the jar, together with the information that the individual was collecting blood from large, dangerous animals, was enough for Bob to figure out what was afoot.  I'll have to check it when I get home.
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Offline Joefoe

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Re: Demonreach, the Holy People, and Outsiders
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2011, 07:10:25 PM »
going to say the stones where on the island and new persons used them to build light house but beat to it