Ambush out of a veil. Do you allow it? How do you do it?

[ways and means]

I run on veils are removed once you attack but if you re-veil aka hiding roll (using your turn) then you can ambush again. 

[Taran]

I was thinking about the 2 shifts to make the veil a one-way block.  In the book it says
"Veils often block detection in both directions.  Perceiving things outside a veil while you are within it faces a similar block, at half the veil’s strength.Increase the complexity of a veil by 2 in order to create a veil that doesn’t impede lookingout at all."

So if you are sitting in an 8 shift veil waiting to ambush, you need to get past a 4 shift block to "perceive" the target of your ambush.  It seems that your first attack would need to equal or beat 4 to hit any target outside the veil. Given that as soon as a block is defeated it goes away, it means that the ambushers would automatically break the veil when they successfully attack.

If you put 2 shifts to make the veil one-way, maybe the veil won't go down after the first attack.

What do people think of this?  I'm not making a comment whether or not you should get multiple ambush attacks if you add the 2 shifts for a one-way veil, I'm just commenting on how you can justify a veil disappearing after attacking.

[Samael]

Not sure I like at, considering the nerfing it does compared to powers, for instance I could take the Cloak of Shadows, a +2 to stealth for Ambushes stunt, and a +2 to stealth for maneuvers, given with ambushes you have the drop on someone, you can reliably set up to +6 shifts worth of power not counting the hypothetical character in questions Superb Stealth.

Or in other words a Legendary +3 for Ambushes. Then considering some gun stunts to compliment... well you get the idea.

I just don't feel its necesary over all.

[UmbraLux]

Regarding veils going down after an opening attack...doesn't the ambush begin a new scene?  A combat scene at that.  So even if handwaving veil duration to per scene or some other arbitrary time frame it should end as the new combat scene begins.  If it doesn't, you probably should carry casting stress over and start using a per exchange duration. 

I'd go with the new scene ending the veil even if attacking through it does not.

[Taran]

Not sure I like at, considering the nerfing it does compared to powers, for instance I could take the Cloak of Shadows, a +2 to stealth for Ambushes stunt, and a +2 to stealth for maneuvers, given with ambushes you have the drop on someone, you can reliably set up to +6 shifts worth of power not counting the hypothetical character in questions Superb Stealth.

Or in other words a Legendary +3 for Ambushes. Then considering some gun stunts to compliment... well you get the idea.

I just don't feel its necesary over all.

If you're tagging enough maneuvers and have gun stunts to boot then you'll have no problem getting through a block of 4; you'll successfully carry out the ambush and take down your veil.



@umbralux  I like the combat=new scene.

[ways and means]

Its already two shifts too remove the both way limitation its in the veils section.

[Taran]

Its already two shifts too remove the both way limitation its in the veils section.

Yes,  I know.  In my post you can read the quote that I copied right out of YS. I edited it to include the 2 shift rule.   What I'm saying is when you ambush, if you don't want to face a block with a strength equal to half the strength of your veil, you'll be forced to add 2 shifts.  This effectively reduces the power of your veil by 2.

All I'm saying that if Papa Gruff thinks veils and ambushes in combination are too powerful, this may be an option to reduce the strength of the veil.

[sinker]

I don't actually mind the way that Taran suggests. It's relatively clever and supported by RAW, while still holding up the answer I like.

As far as the combat being a new scene, I'm not so sure. I mean a lot of that previous scene is still present. You're still in the same location, most of the scene aspects should still be there. You aren't really framing a new scene, you'd just be saying "It's exactly the same as the last scene" and if you're doing that then why are you changing scenes. It doesn't seem justified to me as a scene change, just a change in context.

I run on veils are removed once you attack but if you re-veil aka hiding roll (using your turn) then you can ambush again. 

This I'm not a fan of because of what has been mentioned earlier. Even though you're invisible the second time they shouldn't have no defense roll whatsoever because at that point they are expecting an attack.

[Michael Sandy]

Not sure I like at, considering the nerfing it does compared to powers, for instance I could take the Cloak of Shadows, a +2 to stealth for Ambushes stunt, and a +2 to stealth for maneuvers, given with ambushes you have the drop on someone, you can reliably set up to +6 shifts worth of power not counting the hypothetical character in questions Superb Stealth.

Or in other words a Legendary +3 for Ambushes. Then considering some gun stunts to compliment... well you get the idea.

I just don't feel its necesary over all.

By the Rules As Written, you lose some efficiency when you stack stunts.  If you have two stunts that give +2 that apply, the final result is generally +3, not +4.

One guideline you could go by is the +4 you get to see through a shapechange deceit if the shapechanged object or creature does something unusual.

So a veiled mage who fires a fireball is going to give everybody a +4 to see through their veil.  Maybe if the spell is significantly stealthier it would not have as great an effect.

I don't see a problem with a veiled character getting off an ambush on the first exchange.  But maintaining stealth after firing should be MUCH harder.

And coordinating an ambush where people can't see each other could be tough.  Hand signals where you can't see your OWN hands?

Don't forget it costs a shift for each extra sense you wish to affect.

I would certainly support a GM who ruled that attacking causes the person veiling to Immediately lose the veil.  But stealth would still apply, and coming out of Veil if the target had had no inkling that you were there would yield a couple exploitable aspects to boost your effective stealth.

That means that Joe apprentice with no ranks in stealth is not going to be killer effective ambusher.

[Taran]

Don't forget it costs a shift for each extra sense you wish to affect.

Does it?  I mentionned that earlier in this thread but I was just making stuff up/thinking out loud to find ways to reduce the potential power of a veil (or I think I was just mistaken).  I think, as others have mentionned earlier, a veil covers all senses.  "The power invested in a veil serves as the difficulty for using skills or other magic to detect anything that’s concealed by the veil." YS 255

It doesn't specify a specific skill, it just says "skills".  So regardless of the sense, if you're using a skill to detect something under a veil, you have to beat the power of the veil.

One guideline you could go by is the +4 you get to see through a shapechange deceit if the shapechanged object or creature does something unusual.
So a veiled mage who fires a fireball is going to give everybody a +4 to see through their veil.  

This makes sense.

What do people do for trying to shoot/attack veiled foes?  Assuming the veil has extra exchanges in it and hasn't been peirced and, I guess, assuming that you don't adjudicate the veil dropping when someone in it attacks, how do you adjudicate shooting in a random direction because you saw an arrow come flying at you "from that direction".  Would you allow the person to attack "over there somewhere" and let the attack, if it succeeds, break the veil?  Or would that just be an awareness with, as Micheal Sandy said, a +4 because you saw the arrow coming from that direction?

[devonapple]

Don't forget it costs a shift for each extra sense you wish to affect.

Does it? I'd love to know the page number, if you can get it.

[sinker]

@Taran I usually treat it one of two ways. If they have no reason to expect that someone is veiled (not the case here I know) then they just can't attack that person. If they've seen the person disappear or know they're there for some reason then I usually just have them attack and see if it gets over the block. It's not quite right thematically (ideally you'd want alertness in there somewhere), but it cuts down on rolls. I've never liked the whole "Roll to see if you are able to roll" idea.

[Tedronai]

Might, then, want to have Alertness (or Lore) restrict the attack roll

[Taran]

Might, then, want to have Alertness (or Lore) restrict the attack roll

Agreed

[Michael Sandy]

Does it? I'd love to know the page number, if you can get it.

Shoot.  That must have been a house rule, that you have to spend a shift for each sense the Veil operates against, because I can't find it.