Portraying Mortals With Negative Refresh

[bibliophile20]

I was recently introduced to the show Burn Notice by one of my players (I think the little narratorial exposition voiceovers are a good way to show what assessments and declarations are to players that don't "get it"), and then the other day, mentioned that, if I were to stat out the Burn Notice main cast, Michael would have negative refresh, due to his single-minded pursuit of "getting my life back" come hell or high water.  We ended up bouncing this around a bit; some of us were arguing "yeah, he's in the negatives" and others arguing "nah, he's positive--barely--but has alot of aspects to get compelled."  Figured I'd bring the discussion here, see what people think.

Oh, and if anyone has any other examples of a negative refresh vanilla mortal on the little screen, please, share.  

[Sanctaphrax]

I've never actually used a 1> refresh mortal. I did stat one up, though. He's a slave trader, and he's on Reply #99 of the Generic NPC thread.

As for fictional examples, I recommend the manga Monster. The villain Johan is probably in the deep negatives, and you could make a strong case for Tenma or Grimmer or Roberto or Lunge.

Really, this isn't possible to judge accurately. I mean, some random average Joe could have negative refresh if he was set deeply enough into his ways.

PS: I think that some real-life drug addicts are probably in the negatives. How often do they buy off that "get high" compel?

[bibliophile20]

   Sanctaphrax, I'm suddenly curious as to how you, Sir Statting McAwesome, would draw up the Burn Notice crew. 

Good points; I'll certainly agree that druggies and other addicts are possibly in the negatives.  I also think that people who are deeply in debt or other spiraling obligations can be approaching that limit.

[MijRai]

I would say Michael is positive in Refresh. Looking at some of the other spies/hitmen, I'd say they have negative refresh, what with being cold-blooded spies who don't care what gets in their way.

[Ala Alba]

 Sanctaphrax, I'm suddenly curious as to how you, Sir Statting McAwesome, would draw up the Burn Notice crew.  

Good points; I'll certainly agree that druggies and other addicts are possibly in the negatives.  I also think that people who are deeply in debt or other spiraling obligations can be approaching that limit.

I'm pretty sure the Burn Notice main cast has been drawn up. I can't quite remember who did it, though, but I do remember that they did an admirable job of it.

Edit: Found them. As I thought, they were done by Deadmanwalking.
Michael: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19418.msg860490.html#msg860490
Sam: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19418.msg860667.html#msg860667
Fiona: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19418.msg868259.html#msg868259

[Sanctaphrax]

Hey, I'm a knight now! Cool.

Unfortunately, I've never seen Burn Notice. I'm afraid that you'll have to trust in Deadmanwalking for this one.

Good point about those far in debt. It occurs to me that "other spiraling obligations" could include a job that one takes too seriously or a difficult position in one's family.

PS: You know, Deadmanwalking is the one who inspired me to post here. I'd thank him for that if he was still around.

[bibliophile20]

Hey, I'm a knight now! Cool.

 
Just be careful if King Butcher says in frustration, "Will no one rid me of this troublesome editior!?"

Unfortunately, I've never seen Burn Notice. I'm afraid that you'll have to trust in Deadmanwalking for this one.

Oh, you should watch it; I think you'd like it.  And, like I said in the OP, the narratorial voiceovers explaining things from the main character are a good way to show assessments and declarations to those players who aren't quite "getting it".

Good point about those far in debt. It occurs to me that "other spiraling obligations" could include a job that one takes too seriously or a difficult position in one's family.

And they could leave.  They could walk out.  But they don't.  Past a certain point, it ceases to become "I choose not to," and instead becomes "I can't."

PS: You know, Deadmanwalking is the one who inspired me to post here. I'd thank him for that if he was still around.

Best way to thank him to keep going as you have been. 

[toturi]

What does having negative Refresh do to a character? I'd say that more often than not, that character has to follow his nature due to his not having enough FPs to buy off compels that come his way.
But comparing the negative refresh person who uses the FPs from half his compels to buy off the other half of his compels and the positive refresh person who never buys off his compels, the negative refresh guy would probably appear to have a higher refresh.

[Wyrdrune]

although he is not vanilla, from his behaviour i would see "bester" from "babylon 5" as a negative refresh mortal. also "giles" from "buffy" when he has his ripper-moments. (such as when he was killing a mortal in cold blood because he knew that buffy would not do that, and it was necessary

(click to show/hide)

as this mortal was housing an evil goddess

.)

[evileeyore]

although he is not vanilla, from his behaviour i would see "bester" from "babylon 5" as a negative refresh mortal. also "giles" from "buffy" when he has his ripper-moments. (such as when he was killing a mortal in cold blood because he knew that buffy would not do that, and it was necessary

(click to show/hide)

as this mortal was housing an evil goddess

.)

Bester, yes.  Giles, no.  Giles was just doing what had to be done, it was choice.


A better example is Dexter Morgan from the Showtime show Dexter.  He can't stop himself from stalking, studying, and eventually killing murderers.  It is his Nature, even when it places everything else he holds dear into jeopardy, even when he really wants to not do it, he still fulfills this compulsion.

[toturi]

A better example is Dexter Morgan from the Showtime show Dexter.  He can't stop himself from stalking, studying, and eventually killing murderers.  It is his Nature, even when it places everything else he holds dear into jeopardy, even when he really wants to not do it, he still fulfills this compulsion.

Or it could be that he holds killing those murderers as a higher calling and chooses not to resist his compulsions.

[Haru]

although he is not vanilla, from his behaviour i would see "bester" from "babylon 5" as a negative refresh mortal. also "giles" from "buffy" when he has his ripper-moments. (such as when he was killing a mortal in cold blood because he knew that buffy would not do that, and it was necessary

(click to show/hide)

as this mortal was housing an evil goddess

.)

I would have said it just the other way around: Buffy is the hero, it is her nature to not kill innocents, even if it would have to be done. Giles on the other hand is capable of making that choice. Or Buffy just ran out of FATE points and got a compel.

Dexter is another good example of a low-refresh-but-not-zero character. He gets compelled a lot, but he either buys off those compels or (most often) he finds a compromise. There are certainly a few times, where the "escalation rules" are used

I always understood the "less then zero refresh" thing as a way on how a character can influence a story. Positive refresh means, you can actively push the story in a new direction, zero (or below) means you are doing what the plot needs you to do (with the occasional oddball, when you get FATE via compels).

And by that logic, at least the heroes in a story have to have positive refresh. Everyone else will be tossed around as the story needs them. Another thread mentioned an Alfred character, that would be the kind of non-villain zero refresh character I have in mind. They do what they do, because they are, what they are, nothing more, nothing less, nothing surprising. These characters don't even get FATE by compels, because they will (most certainly) never get compelled.

I have not seen burn notice, but from what little you said, I think it would be a positive refresh character, simply because he is a hero (as in the story is about him). "Getting my life back" would probably be his trouble aspect, which, I assume, is compelled quite frequently.

[evileeyore]

Dexter is another good example of a low-refresh-but-not-zero character. He gets compelled a lot, but he either buys off those compels or (most often) he finds a compromise. There are certainly a few times, where the "escalation rules" are used

I'm more than willing to agree he might be a 1 Refresh character.  He has crappy luck and works very hard to do what he does.  I was offering him as more reasonable choice for 0 Refresh based on I don't remember him ever not indulging in his Compels

(click to show/hide)

(accept when it comes to protecting family, specifically resisting the urge to "make his life easier")

.

And by that logic, at least the heroes in a story have to have positive refresh. Everyone else will be tossed around as the story needs them.

This.

I could see allowing a 0 or negative Refresh "protagonist" for specific types of stories.  Hmmm, something to ponder.

[Haru]

I was offering him as more reasonable choice for 0 Refresh based on I don't remember him ever not indulging in his Compels

Well, imagine a protagonist not reacting to his compels, he would just sit there doing nothing, which would make for a very boring show. Plus, a low refresh character does not have very much FATE to throw around, so he will not be able to just buy of those compels. Btw, did anyone actually stat Dexter yet? I imagine he would have a whole lot of stunts.