Sponcered Magic ideas.

[Moriden]

Ren have you considered that by doing this kind of thing your player is telling you that he wants you to take the kiddy gloves of?

The big bad now has 4 more fate points then when the combat started. this should be on topof every fate point the pcs have used against its minions up to this point.

If its okay for the pcs to unload fate points in such a way its equally okay for the bad guys to do so.

If high teen level evocations are the norm, then there is no reason why level 20-30 thaumaturgical prep spells aren't as well. Give the big bads some kind of defensive ritual with 1-2 charges that has a block rating of 25.

If 22 some strength evocations are common for the pcs to use there is no reason that npcs with comparable stats shouldn't be doing the same.

What he did, bad math aside, is completely in the rules. Its just that most players/sts don't want to deal with an "arms race" scenario so tend to agree not to go that direction.

Hopefully something in there will be of help. if you would like advice on how to stat and implement vilains just let me know im pm and ill see what i can do.

[Ren]

Well yes I could go overboard on setting up the bad guys defenses, the problem is that I don't want the game to be scaling up that way. I intended this game to be somewhat lower-powered to begin with. Which is of course where the real problem lies. If the game was high-powered then sure, it's no biggee, but I have to try and balance the game for 8 players, six of whom are mostly normal humans.

[devonapple]

It sounds like in this case a few restrictions got overlooked. It can happen. Explain to the player that, now that you've read up/consulted/developed a clearer understanding of the rules, going forward, X, Y and Z generally aren't going to work. Hopefully the player will take it with grace.

[Moriden]

Back to the topic of breaking down sponsored magic. i took the time to attempt to break down the ones in the book using the current system.

Seelie: Cost:  4 which can be reduced by -2
*Reducing the effectiveness of a specific type of creature's toughness powers [1]
*Broad types or themes of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [+1]  upgrade to standard
Access to Rituals for the sponsor's theme [1]
Access to Channeling for sponsor's element [1]

Unseelie:  Cost:  4 which can be reduced -2
*Reducing the effectiveness of a specific type of creature's toughness powers [1]
*Broad types or themes of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [+1]  upgrade to standard
Access to Rituals for the sponsor's theme [1]
Access to Channeling for sponsor's element [1]

Kemmlerian Necromancy: Cost: 4 -2 for not receiving the standard benefits.
*Bonus of +1 (power or control) and complexity to more than one type of magic (i.e., hellfire applying to any damaging spell) [2]
*Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]
*The ability to use a specific thaumaturgical school's complexity bonus on evocations that fit the theme [1]
Does not receive the standard benefits -2

Helffire:  Cost: standard 4 which can be reduced -2
*Bonus of +1 (power or control) and complexity to a specific type of thaumaturgy [1]
*Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]
Access to Rituals for the sponsor's theme [1]
Access to Channeling for sponsor's element [1]

Soulfire:  5 -2 if applicable.
*Reducing the effectiveness of all creature’s toughness powers [2]
*Broad types or themes of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [+1]  upgrade to standard
*The ability to serve as a common form of catch [1]
* Access to Thaumaturgy [+1] upgrade to standard
*Access to Channeling for sponsor's element [+0]
this is zero because it already gives you all forms of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds so a specific element for channeling is redundant.


Example place of power:   4 -1 if applicable, -2 if applicable.
*Intellectus [2]
*Bonus of +1 (power or control) and complexity to a specific type of thaumaturgy [1]
*Specific types of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds [1]
*If the sponsor can only be accessed occasionally - either because it is a place of power or some other reason the GM agrees with - reduce the cost by one.
Should be noted that it does *not* receive the standard access to rituals or channeling for sponsors theme.

[Tedronai]

Did Soulfire receive major edits since the preorder version?

[Moriden]

Cost: Due to the extra potency of soulfire, the
base cost is 1 higher (5 total, instead of 4—
reduced to 3 if you have both Evocation and
Thaumaturgy).
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits
(page 288), with a potentially gentler agenda
(though this may come with a tighter credit limit
on the matter of debt). Soulfire downgrades the          -2
Toughness ability of any supernatural creature
by one step when employed (Mythic Toughness
becomes Supernatural, Supernatural becomes
Inhuman, Inhuman goes away), and it may fully
satisfy the Catch (page 185) for some creatures              -1
vulnerable to “holy” sources of damage. With
some creatures (even those that operate on a
“plot device” level), it’s still potent enough to get
their attention.
The full scope of what soulfire can do is not
clear to us at this time. In evocation, soulfire                 Channeling fire, implied by novels to be able to aid 
functions most like the element of fire (though                    nearly anything.
it’s possible other element equivalents may
exist), and in thaumaturgic application…well,
we don’t know really, so for our current purposes
consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy           Full thaumaturgy -1
spells (those which are agenda-compatible,
at any rate).


Soulfire appears to be a bit finicky in this model, by the current pricing it should probably be a base 6. so either we are missing something or they decided to downgrade it to five after playtesting.

[Tedronai]

Note that it says full range of thaumaturgic effects in thaumaturgical application, not 'at evocation's speed and methods' as implied in your cost assessment above
in fact, in a strict reading, it has NO thaumaturgical effects at evocation's speed and methods

[Drachasor]

Note that it says full range of thaumaturgic effects in thaumaturgical application, not 'at evocation's speed and methods' as implied in your cost assessment above
in fact, in a strict reading, it has NO thaumaturgical effects at evocation's speed and methods

Yeah, I think their implementation of Soulfire really sucks.  It handles the direct attack aspect fine, but is completely incapable of handling the constructs Harry makes in the books.

[Tedronai]

Well, Harry doesn't every (not even once) use Soulfire in the absence of conventional magic. (mystical rebar, as the book calls it)

Frankly, I don't think it even belongs in the Sponsored Magic section, given its nature, and the source of its fuel (it's SOULfire; by using it, you burn your own soul, not some energy provided by an external power)

[Drachasor]

Well, Harry doesn't every (not even once) use Soulfire in the absence of conventional magic. (mystical rebar, as the book calls it)

Frankly, I don't think it even belongs in the Sponsored Magic section, given its nature, and the source of its fuel (it's SOULfire; by using it, you burn your own soul, not some energy provided by an external power)

It belongs as sponsored magic.  Remember, sponsored magic doesn't need some being able to cut the strings (Kemmlerites are an example).  Using and restoring your soul are handled by Debt pretty well.  And Harry DOES make magical constructs with it, stuff he couldn't do otherwise.  They even talk in the book about how Soulfire makes such things last longer than they otherwise would (say a scene instead of an exchange).

[Tedronai]

It belongs as sponsored magic.  Remember, sponsored magic doesn't need some being able to cut the strings (Kemmlerites are an example).  Using and restoring your soul are handled by Debt pretty well.

I think that would be better handled by taking consequences (possibly with the availability of soulfire granting additional consequences useable only for the purpose)

Kemmlerian Necromancy is similarly problematic, in that it is not actually sponsored by anyone or anything (from what we've seen in the novels).  It is simply learned.  It, similarly, is a questionable inclusion in the Sponsored Magic section.

  And Harry DOES make magical constructs with it, stuff he couldn't do otherwise.  They even talk in the book about how Soulfire makes such things last longer than they otherwise would (say a scene instead of an exchange).

Harry does not use soulfire in any working where he is not also using his conventional magic, though.  There is no instance of him using ONLY soulfire.  That's the province of beings such as Angels.

[Ren]

So I'm still confused on the whole 'Cost' of Sponsored Magic. A cost reduction for certain types of magic is implied, but not a direct list.
So lets keep it simple;
Say I want to have a character who has Sponsored Magic, but it ONLY applies to Channeling and thus only one element.
Normally Channeling is [-2]
Does sponsored magic then make the cost [-3] or [-1]? or does it stay unchanged?

[bitterpill]

The way I see it Sponsored Magic is it is a -2 Channeling and for -2 Ritual and the only reason that Soul Fire is any different is because it has the toughness reducing power which is a very nice addition, so as long as you don't add the toughness power then the default cost should be 4.

[DFJunkie]

Kemmlerian Necromancy is similarly problematic, in that it is not actually sponsored by anyone or anything (from what we've seen in the novels).  It is simply learned.  It, similarly, is a questionable inclusion in the Sponsored Magic section.

I don't so much have a problem with it, because Kemmlerian Necromancy has an agenda.  The GM can have users pay off sponsor debt by forwarding that agenda.  Kemmlerian Necromancers are classic megalomaniacs.

Now, if a type of sponsored magic doesn't lend itself to an agenda that could create complications for a character (such as the people who suggest that LTW has some sort of sponsored shapeshifting, or the Merlin has sponsored wards) then I would simply not let the user incur sponsor debt.

Though come to think of it, there are a lot of times that Harry and Eb bitch about the Merlin's unwillingness to take the offensive, so maybe his uberwarding skills do involve a sponsor debt.

[Tedronai]

The way I see it Sponsored Magic is it is a -2 Channeling and for -2 Ritual and the only reason that Soul Fire is any different is because it has the toughness reducing power which is a very nice addition, so as long as you don't add the toughness power then the default cost should be 4.

The reason Soulfire has a higher cost is because it 'provides the full range of thaumaturgy spells'
ie. it comes not with Channeling and Ritual, but Channeling and Thaumaturgy (well, almost: it doesn't come with specializations, and you can't take refinement, except for additional item slots, unless you have Evocation or the actual Thaumaturgy power)

Now, if a type of sponsored magic doesn't lend itself to an agenda that could create complications for a character (such as the people who suggest that LTW has some sort of sponsored shapeshifting, or the Merlin has sponsored wards) then I would simply not let the user incur sponsor debt.

ie. simply allow the 'shell game' of thaumaturgy-with-evocation's-speed-and-methods to create more varied focused practitioners and specialist wizards/sorcerers?

Though come to think of it, there are a lot of times that Harry and Eb bitch about the Merlin's unwillingness to take the offensive, so maybe his uberwarding skills do involve a sponsor debt.

...THAT'd cause some political turmoil in the Council if it came to light...