Author Topic: Policy Changes: How do you feel?  (Read 37556 times)

Offline ashton

  • All-Purpose Brute Squad and General Contractor
  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2010, 12:01:03 AM »
As I'm usually Uncle Heavy, and seem to attract my fair share of complaints about how I operate, I'll just make it clear here: I publically post as a moderator in a thread to indicate that the thread is in my opinion salvageable, but that more than one poster has either come dangerously close to the line or crossed it entirely. It's up to the people in the thread to get it back on track. In general, I try to indicate where and how it's gone off the rails so that people can adjust their behavior accordingly.

When I publically chastise or ban someone, it's an easy way to say "that behavior? Don't be like that." so that everyone can see where the line is and have an object example of what crosses it.

Finally, though, as users of the board, you're just going to have to accept that you won't see the whole story. Very often, what you see is the culmination of a series of actions, starting with gentle correction and ramping up through more aggressive warnings, temp bannings, and finally the Hammer of God. Ask any of the new moderators what it was like having their eyes opened to the behind-the-scenes action that comes with being a moderator, and they can tell you: it's night-and-day. No banning happens in a vacuum, and there's always a back story. Very often, revealing that backstory would be completely counterproductive. In other words, you see a small part of the situation, and that's by choice on the moderators' parts.

That is not going to change.

I think I have about as good a perspective on the moderation here as anyone but Iago, because I was the first assistant moderator drafted back when McAnally's was a mailing list. Moderation here has never and will never be random, whimsical, or prompted by personal grudges on the parts of the moderators. We simply do not operate that way, and any perception of personal bias is, in my considered opinion, a phantom of the imagination.
I am the Brute Squad.

Actually, I'm one of the moderators.

This is my moderator voice. Ignore it at your peril.

Offline OnlyElise

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3155
  • Beware the Tiny Dancing Flower Person!
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #46 on: June 23, 2010, 12:14:07 AM »
I think it's worth my time to point out that the mods ARE working extremely hard on keeping everything civil; the amount of work that PG puts in every night as I try to drag him to bed is astounding and he's doing it FOR FREE.

That means that he's going through the threads, making sure everything is going along happily, talking to the other mods, figuring out how to deal with good and bad posters, and basically helping this forum to run smoothly, along with all the other mods and minimods. Knowing how much work they're putting into talking to people first, then warning them to stop acting like jackasses, then having to deal with the backwash of ill will when they point out to someone that they're behaving in a way that no one, including Iago, the owner of the site, and Jim, the INSPIRATION of the site, would want to deal with. It's easy to say that everyone understands this is Iago's playground, but when it comes down to it, the mods are doing the best they can to keep the forum civil and happy, so why SHOULDN'T they be able to get a little snarky when someone is just not taking the hint?
She Who Must Be Obeyed. Or at least catered to, occasionally.

Offline David one Mutts Friend

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1731
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #47 on: June 23, 2010, 12:37:37 AM »
No, I really do not like the changes. Maybe because I was painted with the ban hammer brush and feel that no matter what I say it will be looked at more closely than it would have before.

I know how Harry felt with the Doom over him and Morgan looking over his shoulder every second.

David
I have a Wartenburg Wheel and I know how to use it! ;)
[/quote]

Offline Niccos Shadow

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 399
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2010, 12:38:29 AM »
If the general response is "This is the way it works, deal with it" and/or "It's ok for mods/admins because their forum experience is more stressful, deal with it". Then what is the point of asking for member feedback?

I understand all too well the work involved. I've seen and dealt with junk in other online communities that make the rudest post I've read here look like a pleasant conversation over tea (including stuff in TT). But I've never seen a forum/community where it was acceptable for the administration to break the same rules they were trying to enforce, regardless of how stressful or burdensome their task becomes.

There's nothing wrong with "Ok, this person was banned because <insert reason>". But there's a big jump between that and "Wow you guys are ignorant children. Stfu or i'll ban you... on second thought, I'll just ban you now!". That kind of thing is unnecessary and promotes the same kind of issues that the administration is trying to prevent. And it just plain looks bad.
Quote
"I still can't believe that you came to the Vampires' Masquerade Ball dressed as a vampire."
Quote
"Not just a vampire, a cheesy vampire. Do you think they got the point?"

Offline OnlyElise

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3155
  • Beware the Tiny Dancing Flower Person!
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2010, 12:40:49 AM »
I'm not a mod, nor is anything I wrote attributed, or approved of, by a mod. I'm saying this is their coloring book. I shall color inside the lines, or I will  need to go get my own coloring book.

As far as favoritism goes, I happen to know that when they feel they may be taking someone's writing too personally, they will hand off the issue to another mod who is detached.
She Who Must Be Obeyed. Or at least catered to, occasionally.

Offline Amber

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4256
  • Enchanted Storm
    • View Profile
    • My Own Message Board
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2010, 12:48:07 AM »

There's nothing wrong with "Ok, this person was banned because <insert reason>". But there's a big jump between that and "Wow you guys are ignorant children. Stfu or i'll ban you... on second thought, I'll just ban you now!". That kind of thing is unnecessary and promotes the same kind of issues that the administration is trying to prevent. And it just plain looks bad.

This.

I think it's all cool that we don't see what goes on behind the scenes.  We may not see the 250 personal messages asking the person to calm down or the 15 pages of posts between mods discussing what to do.  That really doesn't, however, excuse the mods being nasty and childish themselves when they finally post a banning or a comment in a thread.  I've seen alot of that in the past, though nothing recently, but I just post around media favorites mostly, so I might just be missing the threads.

However, I've not often reported it to Fred when I thought a mod was being childish, etc.  As was said with everyone else's posts... they can't know it's a problem if no one complains.
"I am among those who think that science has great beauty. A scientist in his laboratory is not only a technician: he is also a child placed before natural phenomena which impress him like a fairy tale."
- Marie Curie

Offline Katty

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2444
  • Never been perfect. But neither have you.
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2010, 12:49:25 AM »
Onlyelise,

I don't think anyone here thinks that the mods don't put in a ton of time, and are generally shat upon in general.  (I don't, and let me say publicly I appreciate everything that they do.)  And getting snarky is one thing.  One could argue gentle snark is part of the lifeblood of this board.  Being rude to a poster is another.  My comment was that if a poster isn't allowed to go over the line, neither is a mod.  To do otherwise sets up an "Us vs. Them" mentality, and that doesn't do any of us any good.  

ashton,

Thank you very much for posting.  I do know we often don't see the whole story, and we can form wrong impressions from the part we do see.  How we change that...I'm not sure.  Something to think about and remember, maybe.

I think we're all having growing pains, and we all need to be understanding of each other on both sides.  Because in the end, we're all here because we like the board, the books, and Jim, right?  So there's a way to work through this, IMO.
"No one gets to their heaven without a fight." - Neil Peart

"I'm going to hell for that bit.  And I'm taking all of you with me." - Denis Leary

Offline OnlyElise

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3155
  • Beware the Tiny Dancing Flower Person!
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2010, 12:50:06 AM »

I think we're all having growing pains, and we all need to be understanding of each other on both sides.  Because in the end, we're all here because we like the board, the books, and Jim, right?  So there's a way to work through this, IMO.

Agreed. Everything is going to calm down here, sooner or later. I think we should all try for "sooner."  :)
She Who Must Be Obeyed. Or at least catered to, occasionally.

Offline Paynesgrey

  • Bartender
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12131
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2010, 12:50:42 AM »
No, I really do not like the changes. Maybe because I was painted with the ban hammer brush and feel that no matter what I say it will be looked at more closely than it would have before.

I know how Harry felt with the Doom over him and Morgan looking over his shoulder every second.

David

Actually there aren't just enough of us to go all Morgan on you or anybody else for that matter.  If somebody has a history of doing the same thing, we look harder when a new complaint hits our box.  And when we get a complaint, if a post is out of line, we'll crawl back over the last day or two's posts by that poster to see if it was an aberration, simple slip up, or a part of an escalating pattern.  There's too much traffic for us to eyeball everythread outside those that we just have an interest in.  Other than that, we don't come running unless somebody calls.  I don't even have the manpower to stalk Mila Jovovich properly, much less any particular forum member.  (One exception being new threads with titles that scream "INCOMING", say something political or likely to cause precludious and dispositional behaviour, like "Will Harry Find Jesus and blow up BP"?  That'll grab our attention Real Good.)  

Point being, nobody's gonna come gunning for you personal like, just be wary of slipping into whatever behaviour was an issue before.  If you think a post might be pushing it, ease up and let it simmer for a while before posting it.   
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 12:52:32 AM by paynesgrey »

Offline OnlyElise

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3155
  • Beware the Tiny Dancing Flower Person!
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2010, 12:51:36 AM »
 I don't even have the manpower to stalk Mila Jovovich properly, much less any particular forum member.

<smacks PG>
She Who Must Be Obeyed. Or at least catered to, occasionally.

Offline Blaze

  • Cloak maker to Wizards.
  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13508
  • Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #55 on: June 23, 2010, 12:52:03 AM »
Please, keep in mind that your moderators are people, and volunteers.  Please keep in mind that when you have a complaint, and it looks like the Mod is not acting upon it immediately, it is because there may be discussion happening regarding that complaint.  

Also, keep in mind that while you may be sending one mod six PMs, that Mod may have seven other people sending them ten PMs, and some of these may carry an opinion totally contrary to the one that you are voicing.  It takes time for a Mod to read through everyone's opinions, read and reread the thread and posts involved and then make a call.

When I have had to make (or even simply pass on) a decision, I have had people who took it very personally, as if it was an aimed decision.  I have seen that mods are working hard to base all decisions on policy not opinion.

The knee jerk reaction of some people is to be defensive, offensive, angry when they get told that a decision was made that was not in their favor (or just not what they wanted.)  People then cool off after an hour or a day, and then apologize. While this is nice, it really doesn't change the fact that while a Mod is trying to help keep the board functioning, in addition to the TCB PMs, we have to read through the venting PMs, as well as do the job...

Venting is fine.  May I suggest this?  Write your venting PMs and hang on to them for 24 hours.  After that, if you still feel the need to send them to the Mod you took exception to, do so. I think you may find that holding off puts things in perspective.

And if you really think a Mod is not behaving properly, do tell Ashton or Iago!  Because, all the mods are people...  and people are fallible.
Chi pò, non vò; chi vò, non pò; chi sà, non fà; chi fà, non sà; e così, male il mondo va.

Offline Paynesgrey

  • Bartender
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12131
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #56 on: June 23, 2010, 12:57:13 AM »
<smacks PG>


Yeah.

I deserved that. 

Offline OnlyElise

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3155
  • Beware the Tiny Dancing Flower Person!
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #57 on: June 23, 2010, 12:58:16 AM »
You totally did.
She Who Must Be Obeyed. Or at least catered to, occasionally.

Offline Paynesgrey

  • Bartender
  • Seriously?
  • ****
  • Posts: 12131
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #58 on: June 23, 2010, 12:59:38 AM »
This is why our wedding was referred to as Operation Yes Dear.

Offline Katty

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2444
  • Never been perfect. But neither have you.
    • View Profile
Re: Policy Changes: How do you feel?
« Reply #59 on: June 23, 2010, 01:07:24 AM »
So if we have complaints on your modding, PG, we send them to onlyelise?   ;D
"No one gets to their heaven without a fight." - Neil Peart

"I'm going to hell for that bit.  And I'm taking all of you with me." - Denis Leary