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Messages - Hankthemoose

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DF Spoilers / Does the Oblivion War create Outsiders?
« on: August 17, 2019, 08:34:12 AM »
Erasing the awareness of a supernatural entity prevents it from being able to interact with reality, right?

The Oblivion War is basically about taking gods, and other Big Bads and causing them to be forgotten, so that they disappear.

The thing is, this basically also describes the whole situation with the Old Ones, who are confirmed outsiders. So, are some/all of the current Outsiders just former Insiders, trying to get home?

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Any epic GoT style uber series had better cast James Marsters for something in it...

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I don't like it, it doesn't pass the smell test.

Having a Spire Albion at all, much less putting it front and center in the story, essentially disqualifies the Aleran connection. It would very sloppy to reference things like Aurora, Olympia, or Albion in an Aleran context, considering that there is no earlier indication that earth mythology/religion exists in any form in Alera.


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I think the actual events are different than Hankthemoose described.   Based on what was described Dead Beat, Lea challenged Mab in some way.   Mab stated that Lea thought the atheme gave her that right and she showed her the error of her ways.   

We know from later books that this is when Mab realized lea was infected.  We also learn that the challenge was related to Harry - specifically Lea was desperate to help Harry against the necromancers in Dead Beat.  That desperation was presumably what tipped Mab off about the infection as it is not typical of Fey.  But I cannot remember which books gave this info, but they were late stage books (cold days perhaps). 

I also believe that Mab was holding the Atheme during her meeting with Harry during Dead Beat, but I am a bit hazy on this.  If correct, then Mab had already taken the Atheme from Lea and cleansed it.   Certainly Lea was aware that the athemea was how she was infected and holds a grudge -- which she explained to harry to justify Mab using her to help him during Changes.   Mab was doing a favor for Lea to allow her to get her revenge on the red court - otherwise lea's services would have been much more expensive to Mab.

Lea didn't think the Athame "gave her the right". It simply made it possible for her to act against her inherent nature, and so to violate the terms of her relationship to Mab, which would be obvious to Mab regardless of exactly how she "challenged" her.

I just reread most of the series for maybe the 6th or 7th time a week ago, and there is no indication that I've ever seen that this challenge is in any way related to Harry, or that Lea is even interested in supporting Harry against the Kemmlerites in Dead Beat. Lea is encased in ice at the time, why would she even know about those events at all? Why would she be desperate? Are you just making stuff up? That's a huge reach unless you've got a source for it.

Please provide references for what you're talking about, or just a quick quote.


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DF Spoilers / Re: Non-plot moments you're most looking forward to
« on: June 01, 2019, 10:44:28 AM »
Right, but the Merlin does have authority to do that kind of thing.

I just have yet to hear anything that gives me any good reason to think the Merlin would be on the GC, and it doesn't make sense to me that he would be. I suppose Jim will let us know eventually.

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Ah, yes, I did not understand your premise. That is a lot more interesting than what I thought you meant, which was black magic --> Outsider infection. I still don't love it, but it works a lot better narratively.

The Lords of Outer Night are actually false (lower-case) gods. I think it was the DF RPG (?), explaining that the LOON are vampires who are drinking the blood of real non-false Amerindian gods to gain their power. I don't think Odin would get a "false god" descriptor from a sword bearer, exp. considering that Uriel and Vadderung are repeatedly implied to be allies.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Non-plot moments you're most looking forward to
« on: May 31, 2019, 03:53:09 PM »
You wouldn't hide the fact that you wiped out your enemy, that you were at war with, with your secret strike force. You use a secret covert ops organisation to gather intelligence and kill rivals that you're technically allied with, not to fight a declared war and then give credit to your political rivals.

The Merlin is portrayed as a bone-deep political creature. The idea that he would both fail to take credit, and allow a political loose cannon ne'er do well benefit violates who he is as a character.

There is a reason everyone knew about Seal Team 6 the moment Osama Bin Laden got killed.

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And? Do you think all of the Fallen are outsider friendly? Because Anduriel reacted pretty strongly when Harry mentioned Hellfire at Arctis Tor.

Alternatively, do you think the Fallen aren't outsider friendly even when they use black magic? Why not?

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DF Spoilers / Re: Non-plot moments you're most looking forward to
« on: May 31, 2019, 12:15:48 PM »
Are you sure he wasn't?

The Merlin told Harry that he (the Merlin) and a bunch of the most powerful WC members were preparing a counterstrike, to end the Red Court permanently.

Eb told Harry to come to the meeting to meet the rest of the gang preparing for a counterstrike to end the Red Court permanently.

Later, Eb and Vadderung and a bunch of unidentified powerful spellcasters show up and launch that "counterstrike" in response to Harry's information.

It seems very, very likely that the Merlin's overwhelming counterstrike plans and Eb's overwhelming counterstrike plans are one and the same. It would be really odd if the Merlin were planning that strike without including Eb, and they'd otherwise be drawing on a bunch of the same wizards like Rashid and Luccio and getting in each other's way.

Heck, Eb's opening line is: "The Merlin is preparing his counterstrike, and we're trying to find out how much they already know about it."

And when Harry doesn't show up for the meeting -- because he's unconscious with a broken back -- Eb says: "There are people in the Grey Council who think you aren't to be trusted. They're very, very wary of you."

That seems like a pretty clear reference to the Merlin.

I can't imagine why you think that. The Merlin is a conservative, and very strongly opposed to division in the WC. The existence of the GC is a threat to his power and the unity of the WC. If he was aware of it, he would immediately denounce it as a conspiracy against him. Also, if the Merlin sanctioned the strike, there would be no need to use the GC at all, or to wear the hoods upon arrival.

They could simply have shown up as the WC with as many wardens as they could rustle up, plus their allies. The Merlin could have easily claimed credit for the entire venture to secure his political power, and to bolster the WCs power and influence.

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@Hank
While I get your point about some Black magic users being against Outsiders, we have yet to see any evidence of that in the novels. Sure, there are users like the Korean kid in PG who don’t overtly support or have any connections to Outsiders, but there is no evidence that they are opposed to them. Nicodemus is not a wizard, in fact the Denarians with abilities to wield magic are Thorned Namshiel (on Black Council) & Tessa (also likely Black Council or being used by them).

The point in the series is that most wizards will use a little black magic in their time... the world of the DF almost makes it inevitable - the ones who keep using it without caution almost always become corrupted by it. My WAG is simply about the ones who have become corrupted by it - I think that taint opens up a ‘gate’ of sorts to the Outside (& may even be one of the requirements to open the Gates). If you think about the Laws of Magic, doesn’t the 7th one about the Outside seem like a non-sequitur?

I don’t think there is anything normal in most uses of black magic - they are all somewhat unique in manifestation, motivation & abuse (see Molly vs. beheaded Korean kid).

Regarding your point about the 2 concurrent conflicts - hmm that’s how most of Harry’s casefiles end - a couple of seemingly disparate things going on that end up being intertwined in the end (Blood Rites included).

I believe others have already commented on how the Swords can do a lot of other things in addition to fighting the Denarians. The purpose of the Swords is to fight evil of any kind. The purpose of the KotC is the fight/ save the Denarians. The KotC do not need to dedicate themselves to fighting Outsiders because, as you point out, it is Mab’s job (presumably given to her by TWG or his agents).

You're wrong on both counts.

1.) All the denarians use magic, though some are certainly more proficient than others. Nicodemus' shadow leaping off the wall to strangle people is definitely a use of magic to kill. The same goes for Quintus Cassius, who was one of Nic's liutenants and explicitly a magic user with his snake-intensive spells.

2.) In Cold Days, Harry tries to get Murphy to bring a Sword, who refuses, saying explicitly "This isn't their fight". Also, if you think the use of Swords against the Ramps has anything to do with the outsiders, I encourage you to re-read Changes. It's explicitly stated that they're being punished for being "false gods".

3.) I'll add another point. Outsiders cooperate, they do not fight. The direct quote is "Outsiders; they work together, all of them". This means that, in your black magic=outsider influence model, all properly corrupted black magic users should be working together. Cowl, who is clearly aligned with the outsiders, was competing against and fighting Grevane and Corpsetaker, who are very obviously fully corrupted by black magic. It's obvious that they are not working with outsiders, or they would be cooperating 100% with Cowl.

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I'm rereading Summer Knight, and two things really stuck out to me.

-Lea was under the influence of the athame when she sold Harry's debt to Mab.

-Mab considered Harry's debt to Lea—at the time of Summer Knight!—to be of equal value to Morgana's Athame, which Lea says has similar value as a Sword, not because of what it is, but because of who's it is.

At this time, Harry is not anything particularly special, beyond the fact that he has a debt. It sounds like, though, lots of wizards occasionally indebt themselves to the Sidhe, though few probably do so to someone on Lea's level. Why would Mab allow Lea to keep the Athame in exchange for Harry's debt?

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DF Spoilers / Re: Nemesis and Hecate
« on: May 22, 2019, 07:08:17 PM »
I really like the starting bit about Nemesis and Hecate, but it gets a bit unsteady when you extrapolate to all the other deities. They just don't share enough qualities or power level to be put into such neat boxes. Even at the height of their respective powers, many of your creator gods were not peers to each other or any monotheistic deity.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Non-plot moments you're most looking forward to
« on: May 22, 2019, 06:52:28 PM »
And... I'd love to know how the Merlin told the tale of Chichen Itza. Did Harry get credit? Was he known to be dead when the final story was being told, so he was a martyr? Or was it all about members of the Senior Council leading a daring raid on the Red Court's stronghold?

The Merlin was not at Chichen Itza. It was the Grey Council, headed by Eb or Vadderung. They were not under orders from the WC, and were acting on their own initiative. The Merlin would not have told any tale. Instead, he would have simply listened to confused news reports, and inferred what he could from what he knew. The wizards who participated would not have told anyone who they were, because this would expose them.

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Good catch! though mainly I understood that Michael had been sent on that mission to put him in a position to save Molly. I suppose the swords do get sent into non-denarian missions pretty regularly, considering Butters' first mission. I'm still fairly confident that outsiders are at best a peripheral concern to them.

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I don't like that theory at all, because it contradicts several important plot elements.

Black magic practitioners who oppose outsiders - most notably Nicodemus and the nickleheads, as well as Wamps, and the infernal powers of hell in general. Huge portions of the Nevernever are understood to be "evil", with most commonly understood "demons" just being various creatures of the Nevernever.

All of the Outsider hints dropped early in the series - The whole point of Victor Sells, the wolf belts, and all later hints was that Harry is dealing with black magic that isn't behaving normally. They aren't normal bad guys, they are off somehow, and so is their magic. This strongly indicates that there is such a thing as a normal bad guy and normal black magic.

The traditional good/evil moral dimension represented by heaven/hell - The Outsider conflict is one being fought by "the world" headed by Mab against "the outside". The Dresden Files has another conflict between the forces of heaven and hell. This is NOT about protecting the world from outside, it's about the souls of mortals. Uriel and the swords basically treat outsiders as irrelevant to their mission. Instead, they fight evil, and the corruption of free will by the forces of said evil. If the source of this evil was "outside", then they would be set against outsiders, which they are not. Notice how the swords never show up in an outsider story?

Tying black magic to Outside in general kills a huge portion of the nuance of the entire story, and simply does not track with the story overall.





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