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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on November 30, 2021, 11:23:24 PM
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Just finished my current re-read. It pains me that Harry didn’t bring Ramirez into his confidence. Ramirez has never ratted Harry out and always had Harry’s back when he asked. Harry should have trusted him. He knew Ramirez could have snagged Molly, but didn’t. He knew Ramirez shared his concerns about the Black Council.
Harry was wrong. He should have trusted Ramirez. To quote Harry’s series, “Now… matters are worse.”
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Harry didn’t want to drag him into his woes like he did Molly, and like he tried to avoid with Butters.
Harry really isn’t very good for other people.
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Harry didn’t want to drag him into his woes like he did Molly, and like he tried to avoid with Butters.
Harry really isn’t very good for other people.
Harry deliberately kept Ramirez in the dark and it appears to have cost him Ramirez’s friendship. That was foolish.
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Harry didn’t want to drag him into his woes like he did Molly, and like he tried to avoid with Butters.
Harry really isn’t very good for other people.
The decision this time wasn't for Ramirez' benefit. Telling Ramirez was a huge personal risk because it would have jeopardized the chance of saving Thomas. Also, failing to save Thomas would have been a failure in his obligations to honor Winter's promise to Lara.
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No. Rameriz is a friend. Not yet family. Murph is family
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Harry is an idiot who apparently thought that his only options were "Tell Ramirez everything" or "Tell him nothing in the most antagonistic way possible" with no possible in between.
It also didn't hurt that the Wardens were kinda right not to trust him, seeing as how he was in fact in the middle of conspiring with Lara to disrupt a Peace Conference for selfish reasons.
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Harry is an idiot who apparently thought that his only options were "Tell Ramirez everything" or "Tell him nothing in the most antagonistic way possible" with no possible in between.
It also didn't hurt that the Wardens were kinda right not to trust him, seeing as how he was in fact in the middle of conspiring with Lara to disrupt a Peace Conference for selfish reasons.
Who was trusting whom? First thing Carlos puts on Harry is a tracking device without telling him.
Would you have trusted someone who was supposedly your friend who did that? I don't think so. Remember this was before the assassination attempt even happened. So as a friend, why didn't Carlos come clean with Harry on the beach? No, though I wouldn't be shocked if it were Eb that ordered the tracking device.. But once that was done, hell no, Harry wasn't going to trust Carlos.
Would it have mattered one way or the other if Harry had told Carlos everything? Before the talks, Harry didn't know anything beyond what had happened... Again, first thing Carlos does when they catch up to Harry and Murphy after the visit to Lara is have Harry scanned for recent sexual encounters without his permission and believing the worst when it is found out that he had had recent sex.. You going to "trust" this guy who then claims to be your friend? I don't think so.. I think Harry would have been a idiot if he had told Carlos, "everything."
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i don't see Eb ordering the tracking. He would not work so blatantly against Harry.
But I COULD see him knowing and not alerting Harry.
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The reality is the relationship breakdown had started long ago. As much as Ramirez once looked up to Harry, once he worked with him and developed a relationship with him he became painfully aware of Harry's flaws and failings. As they say, never meet your heroes.
The catalyst that broke the friendship might have been the deaths of Yoshimo and Wild Bill (and possibly Chandler). But really it was already fairly damaged well before then. Trust had been lost on both sides for a long time, they had been moving in different directions for some time now, and it's unsurprising really they are on a collision course.
Like all relationship issues, it never comes out of nowhere and it's never just one thing (even if one or both parties might think that). It's always a series of things, there are always things that have been building up.
I don't know that Harry "should" have trusted Ramirez during the events of Peace Talks (and of course Battle Ground) considering the relationship breakdown by this point. Work would have needed to be done much earlier to avert the events that followed and subsequent collapse of trust. But perhaps Harry should have tried to mend the relationship and put more effort in years ago, certainly prior to the events of Changes. After that...there wasn't much time for Dresden to work on any relationships. Then again, it's hard to say how much effort Ramirez put in to earn that trust either. We only see Harry's perspective and that tends to skew things.
Tactically, it might have been wiser to let Ramirez on a few things (especially with the benefit of hindsight), but that being said Harry clearly saw Ramirez was working against him already by this point. It's like giving a cop the information to sabotage your efforts in trying to do some good, even if it isn't how they like it, and then they arrest you or whatever. Harry made probably the best choice he could with the available information at the time. Doesn't mean it was the ultimate best choice but Harry is neither omniscient or infallible, hardly even close.
Don't forget, Ramirez could have chosen to trust Harry some more too. There are consequences to that as well.
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Who was trusting whom? First thing Carlos puts on Harry is a tracking device without telling him.
Would you have trusted someone who was supposedly your friend who did that? I don't think so. Remember this was before the assassination attempt even happened. So as a friend, why didn't Carlos come clean with Harry on the beach? No, though I wouldn't be shocked if it were Eb that ordered the tracking device.. But once that was done, hell no, Harry wasn't going to trust Carlos.
Would it have mattered one way or the other if Harry had told Carlos everything? Before the talks, Harry didn't know anything beyond what had happened... Again, first thing Carlos does when they catch up to Harry and Murphy after the visit to Lara is have Harry scanned for recent sexual encounters without his permission and believing the worst when it is found out that he had had recent sex.. You going to "trust" this guy who then claims to be your friend? I don't think so.. I think Harry would have been a idiot if he had told Carlos, "everything."
I agree he would've been a idiot to tell Carlos everything. But he could have said something.
Instead, when his friends go "Yo Dres we're kinda worried that you've been enthralled by a Succubus Queen can you give us some reassurance here"... Harry grounds his staff and prepared for combat.
He did worse then nothing: he provided evidence in favour of him being controlled.
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What could he have said though? The point is, that tracking device was secretly placed on Harry
beforeanything went down, by his friend, Carlos. That tossed any trust out the window. If you believe that nothing you are about to say will be believed or worse used against you, you keep your mouth shut. That is why when you are arrested and read your rights one of them is "the right to remain silent." Why? Because it can, and will be used against you.. It is also why it is a good idea not to say anything until a lawyer is present.. No, someone talked Carlos into putting that device on Harry, you really think he'd buy anything Harry said?
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Sorry I ain't saying shit if someone acted against me first lol
And since when telling someone partial story is acceptable
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Sorry I ain't saying shit if someone acted against me first lol
And since when telling someone partial story is acceptable
Exactly, and Carlos acted against Harry first, that is why when they stopped him on the way back from Lara's place Harry was pissed. Cap that off with a sex scan without his permission and implying all kinds of things, Harry really would have been stupid to trust Carlos from that point. And yes, Harry perhaps could have handled it better, but he was really emotionally upset about Thomas.. Also even if he did "trust" Carlos enough to talk to him, as you say, Harry didn't even have a partial story for him, Harry didn't know much more about the assassination attempt than Carlos.. But that is only part of the story from Carlos as well, why the tracking device? What Carlos wanted from Harry occurred before the assassination attempt, when he attached the tracking device, but on the beach he never asked Harry to talk to him.. He didn't even ask any questions so Harry could talk to him.. As in "about what?" And it went down pretty much the same way on the road back from Lara's place. "Talk to me.." "About what? How much kitty litter Mister goes through?"
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Harry had 4 options as I see it:
1. Say nothing. This is what he chose
2. Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? I can't explain anything about why
3. Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? I need to do it for Winter Knight reasons.
4. Say I have to help Thomas, will you help? He's my brother.
Considering they were worried about him being bent up and not being himself, 2 wouldn't have worked. They don't understand Winter the way Harry does, 3 would have made them trust him even less. 4 is just waaaay too dangerous to share. Harry made the right choice.
Harry should take him to the outer gates and explain to him what's really in play and Winter's role in it. That might make Carlos less worried about Harry being mind bent. There is a really serious reason for Winter to be playing hardball that all reality should be supporting. As a matter of fact, Harry should take Butters, Fix, and maybe even Goodman or anyone else he plans to need to depend on that he can get on that little "field Trip" I think that would make a great short story in 12 months or whatever the new book is going to be. There are some people Harry really needs trusting him just a little more than they are right now and cluing them into the big picture would help with that.
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You don't want to do a field trip you don't want to let people know about the outer Gates because that's just another venue the bad guys to attack. Not everybody is an outsider they might have different reasons to f*** s*** up
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You don't want to do a field trip you don't want to let people know about the outer Gates because that's just another venue the bad guys to attack. Not everybody is an outsider they might have different reasons to f*** s*** up
All the important people with truly "f*** s*** up" power already know. Dracul, the mothers, Mab, Titania, the senior council, Denarians, dragons, odin, etc. They all know about it. Heck, they all clearly know more about it than Harry since they all know more about Starborn than he does. I'm talking about him getting some of the people at his level that can serve as speedbumps to him at a critical time in the know to help clear them out of the way. None of them are going to be threats to the status quo. But if Fix had known more about this, and maybe understands that "oppose winter at all times" is a bad mantra, then things like them fighting like they did earlier may be avoided in the future.
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I think he could have told Carlos on the stairs in the castle the he worked with Lara because of winter stuff and that he was sorry he could not tell him more about it.
Maybe he could also have told him at that point that he has a great girlfriend which he would like to introduce his friend Carlos to at some point, but that it is none of Warden Ramirez business.
So I think he should not have told Carlos much more than he did, but he could have done it ok a nicer way. But then again Harry is a bit less calm than I am and he is living it, not reading it.
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I think he could have told Carlos on the stairs in the castle the he worked with Lara because of winter stuff and that he was sorry he could not tell him more about it.
But would that have done any good? For starters after his failed dance with Molly, Carlos isn't exactly
open to Winter business. But most importantly he has placed that damn tracking device on Harry on the beach before anything went down, before he started asking Harry trust and talk to him, while he was asking him to be part of his security team! I agree with B4utoo, would you trust anyone [a supposed friend] who did that to you? Here's a question, on the beach, why didn't Carlos trust Harry and level with him? As in, "I know this sucks Harry, but I am being ordered to put this tracking device on you. I am not sure who, but someone wants your ass pretty badly, just be aware as you move around.." Now if Carlos had said any thing like that in the first chapter of Peace Talks, Harry might have talked to him and trusted him.. But he did not.
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I think he could have told Carlos on the stairs in the castle the he worked with Lara because of winter stuff and that he was sorry he could not tell him more about it.
Not a chance. Time was of the essence. Telling Ramirez anything less than the full truth would have resulted in a longer discussion in which Ramirez demanded more information or at least a better explanation as to why he can't tell them. It also would have immediately informed Ramirez that Harry was in fact planning something and the refusal to explain what Harry was planning would have made Ramirez watch him closely and ruined the plan.
Maybe he could also have told him at that point that he has a great girlfriend which he would like to introduce his friend Carlos to at some point, but that it is none of Warden Ramirez business.
That's a decent point. A clever, socially-adept, charismatic person could have pointed out that he would love to share his personal life with his friend Carlos Ramirez, but he wasn't going to be bullied by Warden Ramirez.
Harry's social skills, however, do not include quick-witted tactful diplomacy and charisma. Rather, Harry is hot-headed, stubborn, hostile toward bullying, and relies on quick-witted juvenile comments in diplomatic situations. Harry thinking of saying something like that in those circumstances would not have been a believable story.
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That's a decent point. A clever, socially-adept, charismatic person could have pointed out that he would love to share his personal life with his friend Carlos Ramirez, but he wasn't going to be bullied by Warden Ramirez.
Harry's social skills, however, do not include quick-witted tactful diplomacy and charisma. Rather, Harry is hot-headed, stubborn, hostile toward bullying, and relies on quick-witted juvenile comments in diplomatic situations. Harry thinking of saying something like that in those circumstances would not have been a believable story.
Context is everything, you are leaving out the bit about discovering that his so called trusted friend, Carlos had secretly placed a tracking device on him. That would piss him off just a bit and sort of toss diplomacy out the window. One extra point on that, since he was tracking Harry, Carlos would have known that Harry had spent some time at Murphy's house earlier that day.. Now in fairness, Carlos might not have guess that Harry and Murphy were an item, then again he may have... When you think of it, the sex scan stinks of "frame up." Suppose because he was tracking him, Carlos knew perfectly well who Harry had had sex with earlier that day, so he orders the sex scan... Of course it is positive, Carlos also knows Harry isn't going to tell him it was Murphy, when she is with in ear shot. Then Carlos further insinuates that Harry must of recently had sex with Lara. Which when you think of it doesn't make sense because why would Harry bring Murphy with him then ask her to feed the pigeons while he has sex and plots with Lara? Then Carlos asks Harry to talk to him, confess what he is plotting, because they are all friends? Really? Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about? And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..
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Context is everything, you are leaving out the bit about discovering that his so called trusted friend, Carlos had secretly placed a tracking device on him. That would piss him off just a bit and sort of toss diplomacy out the window. One extra point on that, since he was tracking Harry, Carlos would have known that Harry had spent some time at Murphy's house earlier that day.. Now in fairness, Carlos might not have guess that Harry and Murphy were an item, then again he may have... When you think of it, the sex scan stinks of "frame up." Suppose because he was tracking him, Carlos knew perfectly well who Harry had had sex with earlier that day, so he orders the sex scan... Of course it is positive, Carlos also knows Harry isn't going to tell him it was Murphy, when she is with in ear shot. Then Carlos further insinuates that Harry must of recently had sex with Lara. Which when you think of it doesn't make sense because why would Harry bring Murphy with him then ask her to feed the pigeons while he has sex and plots with Lara? Then Carlos asks Harry to talk to him, confess what he is plotting, because they are all friends? Really? Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about? And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..
While I agree with your argument on almost all points, you are conflating some scenes. Harry was alone when Ramirez and crew stopped him on the way back from Lara's. That was his first visit where he shared info Lara and she used her first favor to make Harry aid her in Thomas' escape. Murphy was with Harry on the second visit, where they had to elude the three tails. That was when they laid out the plan to Lara. Ramirez was not privy to that trip.
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Harry's reaction was perfectly normal, somewhere between WTF is this about? And pissed that his friend went along with doing this to him..
I agree, Harry's reaction was perfectly normal. But what constitutes "perfectly normal" human behavior is a range and different person's behavior typically fall within different areas of that range.
Some people, who prefer to avoid confrontation, would have told Ramirez they had sex with Murphy. That is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
Some people, who are good diplomats and good at controlling their emotions, would have made an effort to push back against the bullying while inviting Carlos Ramirez to make a social call later, when he isn't acting as a warden, to discuss any personal concerns he might have about his friend. Again, that is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
Harry is confrontational, he has trust issues, and issues with bullies. Thus, he pushed back as hard as he could without forcing a violent confrontation. While that is perfectly normal human behavior and the only reasonable expectation of what Harry would do, it probably wasn't the best approach.
Notably, Carlos Ramirez should know Harry well enough to understand that a confrontation like that would only push Harry away. If Carlos had truly been concerned with helping Harry, he would have approached alone. The fact that Carlos brought the team is pretty indicative that he had already decided that Harry was in bed with the White Court.
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Some people, who prefer to avoid confrontation, would have told Ramirez they had sex with Murphy. That is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
Would you have admitted to having sex with the woman you had sex with was present? Gentlemen don't do that, last I checked Harry was old school gentleman. Why do the sex test to start with? Why would Carlos order that? Especially given the fact that Murphy had gone to the estate with Harry... Sorry but stinks of a framing..
Some people, who are good diplomats and good at controlling their emotions, would have made an effort to push back against the bullying while inviting Carlos Ramirez to make a social call later, when he isn't acting as a warden, to discuss any personal concerns he might have about his friend. Again, that is perfectly normal human behavior, but it isn't Harry.
Normally I'd agree, but there is also the view point that by secretly implanting that tracking device on Harry earlier, says that Harry was already suspected of something and Carlos went along with it.
How would you feel if a close friend you trust visited you wearing a wire with the intent to catch you in some criminal act? "Talk to me?" Really? About what? That has never been established, and no, it isn't about the assassination attempt, the tracking device was on him before that ever happened. Harry had nothing to tell him, but from the final conversation between Harry and Carlos at the end of Battle Ground, Carlos already had suspected him of all kinds of stuff back in chapter one of Peace Talks.. It smacks of "star chamber" tactics.
Notably, Carlos Ramirez should know Harry well enough to understand that a confrontation like that would only push Harry away. If Carlos had truly been concerned with helping Harry, he would have approached alone. The fact that Carlos brought the team is pretty indicative that he had already decided that Harry was in bed with the White Court.
If you will remember Carlos did approach Harry alone, in the first chapter of Peace Talks. It was all friendly chit chat, except Carlos secretly planted a tracking device on him. Had he already decided Harry was in bed with the White Court? Maybe but last time I checked the White Court under the Accords were allies of the White Council.. Still doesn't explain the tracking device.. Friends don't do that to their friends..
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Just to elaborate on my post above. It would probably not have been very Harry to be diplomatic and calm, I just answered it in the spirit of what do I think the optimal course of action would have been.
Carlos started with the tracking device, but maybe they are equal when Harry uses his trust to make him a distraction and a fool in front of the accorded nations. I can't count the number of times Harry has mentioned never to look weak in front of predators and a guy who already uses a cane being pulled around like an idiot by his jacket looks pretty weak.
Not that I am fan of how Carlos is acting, but I think the winter knight settled the scales on that one.
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Would you have admitted to having sex with the woman you had sex with was present? Gentlemen don't do that, last I checked Harry was old school gentleman. Why do the sex test to start with? Why would Carlos order that? Especially given the fact that Murphy had gone to the estate with Harry... Sorry but stinks of a framing..
Normally I'd agree, but there is also the view point that by secretly implanting that tracking device on Harry earlier, says that Harry was already suspected of something and Carlos went along with it.
Go back and reread that chapter. Murphy was not present when Ramirez and the team met Harry. She and Ramirez share no scenes in PT or BG. The closest the two come is when Murphy picks up Thomas, Lara and Freydis outside while Ethniu and Corb are entering the castle.
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Go back and reread that chapter. Murphy was not present when Ramirez and the team met Harry. She and Ramirez share no scenes in PT or BG. The closest the two come is when Murphy picks up Thomas, Lara and Freydis outside while Ethniu and Corb are entering the castle.
Where is she then? Did Harry leave her at the estate? He took her with him, I believe. Either way a gentleman doesn't tell... It doesn't change anything, any trust that Harry may had for Carlos was broken the minute he put that tracker on Harry's arm.
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Regarding telling or not. In most cases I think the most natural answer would be: well I have a girlfriend, so if it not with her I am in trouble. But I also live in Denmark and I get the impression that there is a pretty big difference between Denmark and the US in this regard. But here I think Carlos could have handled it a lot better and if he had it would not have resulted in that sort of reaction from Harry.
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Regarding telling or not. In most cases I think the most natural answer would be: well I have a girlfriend, so if it not with her I am in trouble. But I also live in Denmark and I get the impression that there is a pretty big difference between Denmark and the US in this regard. But here I think Carlos could have handled it a lot better and if he had it would not have resulted in that sort of reaction from Harry.
Yeah, even for those of us of Danish heritage, all my grandparents came here from the same town in Denmark. Now granted when I knew them they were elderly, but they had a much more conservative attitude.
But here is a quote from Peace Talks that sums up Harry's reaction and to me justifies it.
"Of the two of us here," I said, "which of us has definitely wronged the other? You suspect that I might have done something wrong. You've definitelywronged me, trying to find out. And you did it first."
Which all goes back to Carlos putting the tracking device on Harry to begin with, someone was suspecting that Harry might be doing something wrong way before the assassination attempt. No warning that the White Council wanted his ass, nothing, why should Harry trust him?
Now Chandler did try to warn Harry..
"We have an interest in learning as much as possible."
The way he said we was something new. He wasn't using the word as an inclusive one,like we are all friends. He was using it as an exclusive term. We, all of us,not you.
He was referring to me as someone outside of the White Council. His bright blue eyes were direct, almost pleading as he said it, willing me to get the message. I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.
Didn't bode too well for that vote.
This says to me that the decision had already been made before Carlos put that tracking device on Harry. Someone on the Council wanted Harry out, and they were looking for an excuse.. This is what Eb was driving at when he showed up a little later, but Eb was wrong, I doubt that any amount of lobbying on Harry's part would have saved his ass. When Carlos was asking Harry to trust him and to talk, what he really was doing was fishing for enough rope to hang Harry with.. It meshes nicely with their last conversation in Battle Ground when he breaks the news that Harry was expelled from the Council on trumped up charges.
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Where is she then? Did Harry leave her at the estate? He took her with him, I believe. Either way a gentleman doesn't tell... It doesn't change anything, any trust that Harry may had for Carlos was broken the minute he put that tracker on Harry's arm.
The meeting with Lara that Ramirez and crew showed up after is Harry's first visit and he went to that one alone.
He had Murphy with him the second time when they laid out the plan for Thomas' rescue.
And yes, Harry was correct to be angry at Ramirez. Placing that tracker was part of Ramirez's fading trust in Harry.
Neither Ramirez nor Harry cover themselves in diplomatic glory in PT. The time to tell Harry about the Council vote was when he met him on the beach with Thomas. Harry had no obligations at the time and might have agreed to go with him. But instead he drafts Harry into the White Council security team while placing that tracker.
Harry could have not lost his temper and just told them he did not have sex with anyone at Wraith manor, noyfb who I did have it with.
Given what Ramirez has seen is this. He comes to town to meet Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and sees him going on a morning jog with a vampire. He tells Harry about the Peace Talks and puts the tracker on him. He then tracks him to Wraith manor and confronts him after he leaves. They argue and both leave unsatisfied with what the other tells them.
And the kicker for Carlos is this: Harry threatens him with Molly. Carlos takes it wrong because they are both laboring under a misconception. Carlos thinks Harry knows all about how he was injured so badly by Molly. Harry has no idea that that happened(this occurs while Harry is incommunicado on Demonreach after CD) and Molly can't explain it to him because the Winter lady mantle(and probably personal shame) stops her.
So Carlos sees is friend falling in with the two groups that have injured him bad enough to hospitalize him. He's been ordered to monitor Harry by the organization he trusts and has dedicated his life to. It sets up an awkward situation and when he clumsily tries to talk to Harry in an inappropriate time and place, Harry reacts poorly and pushes Carlo's buttons with out knowing and Carlos unknowingly places Harry at the edge of three conflicting obligations.
Harry is justified and Carlos is in the wrong but I can see how they got there and why each feels the way they do at the end.
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Given what Ramirez has seen is this. He comes to town to meet Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and sees him going on a morning jog with a vampire. He tells Harry about the Peace Talks and puts the tracker on him. He then tracks him to Wraith manor and confronts him after he leaves. They argue and both leave unsatisfied with what the other tells them.
But that is the whole point! He secretly puts a tracker under somebody's orders without warning his friend. That is a knife to the back! And I repeat, the White Court are part of the Accords like the White Council, they are supposed to be allies. Carlos also knows Thomas, he isn't just some vampire to him, he even says he can stick around while he talks to Harry about being part of security for the up and coming talks.
You suspect that I might have done something wrong. You've definitely wronged me, trying to find out.
Carlos did this because the Council is looking to pin something on Harry, anything! To get him kicked off, Carlos could have warned him of that. He didn't he went along with it! He also knew he spent time at Murphy's place a little later, again before, then orders the sex scan and then accusing him of having sex with Lara..
Chandler's message
We, all of us,not you.
He was referring to me as someone outside of the White Council. His bright blue eyes were direct, almost pleading as he said it, willing me to get the message. I saw recognition flicker in them as he saw me process what he was actually saying: Be advised, Harry. The White Council now considers you a threat.
Carlos is telling Harry to talk to him and trust him, but Carlos has already bought into the idea that Harry is a threat.. Nothing Harry could have said to him would have changed that, nothing..
Harry also says this in the end of the chapter debating whether or not he should have talked to Carlos because he says he is a good man and he thought at friend, but on the other hand, let is not forget that tracker!
And even if I did, if Carlos really thought I'd been made into someone's sock puppet, he might talk with me and report everything I said back to the Council in an effort to discover what disinformation I'd been trying to give them.
He also goes on to say if Carlos knew he meant to free Thomas, it would make it all worse.
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And I repeat, the White Court are part of the Accords like the White Council, they are supposed to be allies.
Slight nitpick here, but IIRC, pre-Battle Ground's ending, the Accords have been strictly a mutual non-aggression pact combined with a human masquerade pact. Nothing about an NAP says or implies, that the signatories are in fact actual true allies. All participants were actively spying on and covertly sabotaging each other in various ways even prior to the outright war, that had erupted between Red Court and White Council, in the story prior.
Therefore Carlos' actions, as a member of the White Council, are justified from that perspective, despite clearly showing, that he personally trusted Harry less than his WC peers and/or superiors.
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Maybe earlier but in peace talks it was already far too late.
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Where is she then? Did Harry leave her at the estate? He took her with him, I believe.
I forget the details, but maybe she stayed in the car? It would have gone better if she had been part of the conversation on the road. Not having Harry's weirdly old-fashioned hangups, she probably would have been quite willing to defuse the confrontation by telling Carlos she and Harry were a couple.
Of course, Carlos knowing that would have spoiled the deception play that he and Lara were boinking while they were actually busting Thomas out of the cells.
Hard to say exactly what else Harry should have trusted Carlos with earlier, though. Maybe a bit of background info on Winter's purpose and the fact that the beastly exercise regimen is to keep the mantle tired enough that Harry retains executive control of his own actions, but much more than that is risky. Carlos has either been mentally compromised by someone (Which I don't like, it cheapens the conflict between them) or convinced by someone else he trusts who is antagonistic to Harry, probably using what Molly did to him, that he's gone monster. Whatever he shares is not going to be kept in confidence either way, so it can't be anything truly damaging.
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She wasn't there at all.
Harry made 2 trips to Chateau Wraith in PT.
The first was alone where he talks and spars with Lara. After this, he encounters Ramirez and crew.
Murphy is with him the second trip. They ditch tails, talk to Grey and lay out the plan with Lara after Murphy and Freydis "discuss" her injuries. Carlos is nowhere near them on this trip.
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A couple of points...
Hard to say exactly what else Harry should have trusted Carlos with earlier, though. Maybe a bit of background info on Winter's purpose and the fact that the beastly exercise regimen is to keep the mantle tired enough that Harry retains executive control of his own actions, but much more than that is risky. Carlos has either been mentally compromised by someone (Which I don't like, it cheapens the conflict between them) or convinced by someone else he trusts who is antagonistic to Harry, probably using what Molly did to him, that he's gone monster. Whatever he shares is not going to be kept in confidence either way, so it can't be anything truly damaging.
That is point number one, it may cheapen the story, but someone has convinced Carlos that Harry is guilty of something as of the first chapter of Peace Talks, that is when he put that tracker on Harry secretly. You don't do that ethically unless you, yourself question what Harry is up to. Carlos had been down too many roads with Harry to do that to him, not question it or warn Harry.. That is a total stab in the back!
Murphy is with him the second trip. They ditch tails, talk to Grey and lay out the plan with Lara after Murphy and Freydis "discuss" her injuries. Carlos is nowhere near them on this trip.
But Harry and Murphy had sex before any of that went down, but after the tracker was put on him... There was no evidence previously that Harry and Lara were having trysts together before, so the point of the sex scan was to throw Harry off his game. Carlos and his fellow Wardens were treating Harry like a suspect from the get go.. As Harry said, "you are treating me like I might have done something.." When Carlos asks Harry to "talk to him," he is asking Harry to justify his actions, and then report back. Once Harry realized he was no longer part of the "we" but considered outside the White Council.. He didn't trust anyone.
Therefore Carlos' actions, as a member of the White Council, are justified from that perspective, despite clearly showing, that he personally trusted Harry less than his WC peers and/or superiors.
Yet in chapter one of Peace Talks, Carlos had no problem conducting Council business regarding security in front of Thomas, even though Thomas did offer to leave.
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You do see the relationship between Rudolph the Dumb and Carlos, don't you? They are both members of Infernal Affairs. It should be easy to see why cops don't like them. It also should be easy to see why they are needed.
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You do see the relationship between Rudolph the Dumb and Carlos, don't you? They are both members of Infernal Affairs. It should be easy to see why cops don't like them. It also should be easy to see why they are needed.
Oh yes, but the likes of Rudolph only become dangerous when they suffer from severe paranoia. In Carlos's case, he had suffered grievously at the hands of the Winter Lady both physically and mentally, in his mind it made anyone associated with Winter, suspect. So even though he has known Harry for years, fought and suffered with him, he now finds it hard to give him the benefit of a doubt. Harry's enemies with in the Council saw this change and took full advantage of it.
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Don't you see Carlos Biden and Harry voted Trump
Reread the precepts. Edit your post. No politics.
~Blaze as mod
Yeah… I’d really like to respond given that this post opened the door…
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Yeah… I’d really like to respond given that this post opened the door…
Keeping myself under control…. ;)
I think I just react to some idiots on Facebook to get it out of my system.
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Keeping myself under control…. ;)
I think I just react to some idiots on Facebook to get it out of my system.
The rules are the rules.. We gotta live by them even though it can be frustrating at times.. :o
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The rules are the rules.. We gotta live by them even though it can be frustrating at times.. :o
These rules are actually quite reasonable given the purpose of this group.
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These rules are actually quite reasonable given the purpose of this group.
I didn't say they weren't reasonable.. However I also understand the desire to want to punch back sometimes, that's the frustrating bit.. ::) Usually the moderators take care things pretty well, and for the most part this is one of the most civil sites I visit.
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I didn't say they weren't reasonable.. However I also understand the desire to want to punch back sometimes, that's the frustrating bit.. ::) Usually the moderators take care things pretty well, and for the most part this is one of the most civil sites I visit.
Understood. I simply dislike leaving comments like that unanswered.
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Understood. I simply dislike leaving comments like that unanswered.
The moderator answered it. 🤷♀️ Rank has its privileges.
(I get it, though. It's why I rarely visit my family's Facebook group. Avoiding it gets me in less trouble than participating in it would...)
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(Yes, I understand why some people would have liked to respond to a certain post but, let's not feed the trolls.) Instead, let's get this discussion back on track by taking it in a new direction. I think there have been some good points on both sides of this discussion. However, I come down in a slightly different place. I think Harry has a weakness; well more than one, but in this case he has an inability to see himself as others see him. OK, doing that is a difficult thing for many people; maybe most people, to do. However, in this case Harry has had many, many clues; which if he had paid attention to them, might have allowed him to be proactive and at least attempt to get ahead of the problem he had with Ramirez and company in Peace Talks. (I know, it's confusing so far, just go with me a little further and it should become clear or somewhat clear.)
What are the clues Harry has been ignoring or not paying enough attention to? Look at the constant pattern of suspicion Harry has faced since he seemingly returned from the dead as the new Winter Knight. Sarissa didn't trust him. Bob didn't trust him. Murphy didn't fully trust him; at least not initially. Fix didn't trust him. Lily didn't trust him; again, at least not at first. Butters didn't trust Harry's story about being being dead and later he didn't trust Harry at all. With the exception of Lily who was more worried about the possible infection from Nemesis, the rest of those characters were afraid that Mab had changed Harry for the worse. However, it doesn't end there. Harry knows that whenever he is seen with Thomas or Lara Raith, it's not a good look. The reputation of the White Court of vampires brings some taint to whoever would willingly associate with them. Most people would have realized they had a problem and needed to become proactive in addressing it, but not Harry. He shouldn't have been surprised that at least some of the younger wardens might be concerned, and might even be worried that he was no longer the Harry Dresden they used to know.
Michael, Molly and Thomas are the only people who didn't automatically think "Harry may be a monster or becoming a monster" when he returned. However, Molly's judgement was warped before she became one of the fae (mostly by being around Lea) and Thomas notices a new predatory behavior being demonstrated by Harry; but Thomas thinks of himself as a monster, so he doesn't make any negative judgements about Harry. Thomas just warns Harry that he needs to learn to control what's going on inside of him. Of course, Michael doesn't prejudge Harry because he's Michael, but also because Harry came to him looking for help. Oh yea, there's Mac, but is Mac really human?
I've actually thought through why Harry lacks this self-awareness, but why go there. I'm not sure how deeply Jim thought it through when he created Harry. In any case, I think Harry had exactly one opportunity to attempt to reach out to Carlos Ramirez before everything went to hell. That opportunity was right at the beginning of the novel when Warden Ramirez showed up on the beach where Harry and Thomas were running together. (Caveat, I haven't reread Peace Talks or Battle Ground. To be honest, as time passes the less I like either of them, though there are parts of them I like.)
Harry notices that Carlos is paying attention to the ridiculous amount of weight he is working out with. That was the time for Harry to (attempt) to reassure an old friend that he was still the same person, more or less. Once it was demonstrated to Harry; by the road block and tracking devise, that even his old friends no longer trusted him, Harry wasn't going to meet them halfway or compromise with them in any way. It's not in Harry's nature to react well to threats. As far as being associated with the White Court, it would have also been a good idea if Harry had come up with a good reason why he should be seen with Thomas by a member of the White Council. He's had plenty of time to realize that might be a good idea, but Harry isn't very good at lying, so he hasn't even tried to think of a good excuse.
At the scene on the beach, I don't think it would have been unreasonable for Harry to say something along these lines: "Carlos, I know you must be wondering if I'm still the same person I used to be. I've had a lot of people who have been worried about exactly the same thing." I don't know what Harry would have said after that, other than it would have had to have been very short, and probably included a promise to sit down and talk in more detail later. Would such a statement made a difference? I don't know, but at least Harry wouldn't have come off as clueless as he did when the Wardens stopped him after his meeting with Lara.
As far the White Court issue goes, that is a much more problematic issue for Harry to deal with. I suppose Harry could have said something like, "Baron Marcone, the White Court and a group of vigilantes have created a temporary alliance against the Fomor here in Chicago. (Implying Harry is the primary vigilante in question.) Sometimes this requires discussions and negotiations between allies." While it wouldn't have been a lie, it's way more devious than Harry usually is with friends. So even though I think it would have been a good idea, it would have been out of character for Harry to do this. I suppose Harry might have told Carlos that Captain Luccio knows why he meets with Thomas Raith, but that would have become very complicated, very quickly. Harry might have had to give Ramirez a letter to take to Luccio to confirm what he said was true and hope Captain Luccio wouldn't decide that now was a good time to be concerned enough to reveal the entire truth to Ramirez and the rest of the White Council.
I think Harry had one other opportunity to reach out to Ramirez. I've written about this idea before in another thread. After Warden Ramirez read Harry the demands from the White Council and Harry responded, there might have been an opportunity for Harry to reach out to Carlos as an individual. Harry might said something like this: "Warden Ramirez! You wanted to know about secrets I've been keeping. OK then, come closer and put a veil or other spell over us so no one else can hear this. Remember how I exposed Wizard Peabody as a traitor at Morgan's trial? There's something I didn't tell the White Council at that trial. Peabody wasn't alone when he attacked the Senior Council members on that island and killed at least one warden. I know that for a fact. But no, I don't know who the other person is, but there is another traitor on the White Council. Now ask yourself, who on the Council are you going to report this information to? Because, if you tell the wrong person you may be signing your own death warrant. Watch your back. And that is the least dangerous secret I know." Perhaps telling Ramirez something like that might pay future dividends. Of course, that assumes Ramirez would believe anything Harry said at that point.
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Michael, Molly and Thomas are the only people who didn't automatically think "Harry may be a monster or becoming a monster" when he returned. However, Molly's judgement was warped before she became one of the fae (mostly by being around Lea) and Thomas notices a new predatory behavior being demonstrated by Harry; but Thomas thinks of himself as a monster, so he doesn't make any negative judgements about Harry. Thomas just warns Harry that he needs to learn to control what's going on inside of him. Of course, Michael doesn't prejudge Harry because he's Michael, but also because Harry came to him looking for help. Oh yea, there's Mac, but is Mac really human?
Mac isn't,but that is beside the point,I actually think the more interesting,and maybe important question is why do Michael and Mac,oh and throw Sanya in there as well, trust him? Shiro was willing to die horribly in his place and trust him with the custody of a Holy Sword, Michael turned his over as well. It was Michael who convinced Harry he wasn't, when Harry was beginning to believe everyone else was right, that he was a monster. Rashid is into trust but verify, but mostly he trusts Harry. Listen's to Wind also seems to trust Harry, Eb is his grandfather, I also think Eb might be a bit clueless about him as well. So is it inside information or what?
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The moderator answered it. 🤷♀️ Rank has its privileges.
(I get it, though. It's why I rarely visit my family's Facebook group. Avoiding it gets me in less trouble than participating in it would...)
I hear you. :)
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The moderator answered it. 🤷♀️ Rank has its privileges.
(I get it, though. It's why I rarely visit my family's Facebook group. Avoiding it gets me in less trouble than participating in it would...)
Yeah, but that doesn't always bring the same satisfaction.. But we take what we can get, it's justice..
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Mac isn't,but that is beside the point,I actually think the more interesting,and maybe important question is why do Michael and Mac,oh and throw Sanya in there as well, trust him? Shiro was willing to die horribly in his place and trust him with the custody of a Holy Sword, Michael turned his over as well. It was Michael who convinced Harry he wasn't, when Harry was beginning to believe everyone else was right, that he was a monster. Rashid is into trust but verify, but mostly he trusts Harry. Listen's to Wind also seems to trust Harry, Eb is his grandfather, I also think Eb might be a bit clueless about him as well. So is it inside information or what?
Well. I don't know if it is Inside Information, anymore, but there certainly was back when Harry met Shiro and Sanya - they came to stop him from interfering because he'd die. Harry, stupid/brave/noble self-sacrificer that he is, stepped in to protect them. That move, risking himself to save others, is what made his reputation - and what got him Swords (next to of course the following period where he kept being nobly self-sacrificing).
Ah, you might say, what of Winter? But Michael knows more than just this - he knows that Harry had a Denarian in his head and still never cracked.
What temptation an icy queen, when he has resisted a temptress who was there when the first mortal drew the first breath? Michael is not overly concerned, and rightly so; but very few other people know Harry has resisted the strongest temptation the world has to offer.
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The question remains, should Harry have trusted Carlos? People have given all kinds of reasons as to why Harry shouldn't be trusted. But the question remains, why should Harry trust Carlos? After the tracking device? Carlos tells him to talk to him.. But about what? Carlos doesn't ask Harry anything specific, just to talk, that's what police do when they want an admission of some kind. Nor does Carlos give Harry any information as to who is behind all of this.. So should Harry trust Carlos? Hell no..
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To get trust you have to give it and that's something Harry has almost never done. You don't buy it on street corners with cheap coins. You buy it by trusting when trusting can cost you. Jim over the course of the books created one character that Harry came to trust. Murphy. And Jim slammed the door on that.
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To get trust you have to give it and that's something Harry has almost never done. You don't buy it on street corners with cheap coins. You buy it by trusting when trusting can cost you. Jim over the course of the books created one character that Harry came to trust. Murphy. And Jim slammed the door on that.
Not exactly true, Harry trust Michael, Sanya, Butters, [even when Butters didn't trust him for a while] Thomas, Mac, Eb, sort of, Listens to Wind, River Shoulders, and up until he put a fricking tracking device on him secretly, Carlos. As for Murphy, yes, he trusted her, but she didn't always trust him.
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Your statement is unsupported by the books. He's concealed almost everything from everybody at one time or another. Including famously, himself. He is the poster boy of trust issues.
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Don't confuse secrecy with distrust.
Harry has kept things from people for various reasons. He kept things from Murphy to keep her out of the notice of the magical community and because some knowledge would have put her into ethical dilemmas and/or greater danger. That also how he's treated Molly, Butters and the Alphas. But when the chips were down, he's come clean with all of them. The only thing he's ever kept from Michael was his initial acquisition of Lasciel's Coin. These are members of his intimate family and friends and it includes Thomas and Sanya.
Any ally involved with the magical world gets all the information that is safe for them to know when they're working with him.
But Carlos and the other Wardens are not in his intimate circle. They are trusted coworkers and foxhole buddies. They relax together after battles and have been through some stuff but they don't tell each other everything. This group holds Eb, Listens, River, Anastacia, Rashid and a few others.
Carlo's questioning stepped from the coworker/buddy circle to the family/intimate confidante level. Harry wouldn't let him that close for good and bad reasons. In that situation, Harry may have trusted Carlos, he couldn't trust Warden Ramirez.
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I'd also like to point out that this may not entirely have been of Harry's own free will. "Die alone". The necromancer's death curse that he's been living under. The full phrase that this is referring to is "You're going to die alone", a phrase often aimed at people who inevitably push others away, find themselves ostracized or outcast, and generally act in ways that cause other people to not associate with them or not WANT to associate with them.
Think about it. When Murphy died, it was noted that Harry was already treating her like she was dead or utterly incapacitated due to her injury - even though she was legitimately able to get back up to 80% (which is still better than Butters had when he first helped save the world). When he saw Butters after becoming the Winter Knight, he didn't stop to say hi and chat with friends, he paid his debt to Bob and got ready to go again - something Butters called him out on.
It may have even had influence on why that Fallen Angel was able to manipulate Harry so easily into choosing to BE the Winter Knight in the first place, and the subsequent actions which SEVERELY harmed Molly's sanity and put her on the path towards becoming the Winter Maiden - forever keeping her from seeking Harry's embrace as she tried to do previously.
Death curses are powerful. They're subtle. They're insidious. Is it really that much of a stretch to think that it nudged Harry in the direction of keeping Ramirez out of it for his own safety, even though such an act basically treats Ramirez as a child who's not big/capable enough to handle himself?
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Harry's actions were not the deciding factor for Carlos. If Molly had handled Carlos better it would have been different. But she could not at that moment.
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Carlos first expresses doubts about Harry at the end of White Knight.
I wanted to spit something hostile and venomous and well deserved. I toned myself down to saying, "Gee. A Warden doesn't trust me. That's a switch."
Ramirez blinked at me. "What?"
"Don't worry about it. I'm used to it," I said. "I had Morgan sticking his nose into every corner of my existence for my entire adult life."
Ramirez stared at me for a second. Then he let out a weak snort and said, "All hail the drama queen. Harry…" He shook his head. "I'm talking about you not trusting me, man."
This is the second dance around this subject. It happens with almost every character. When he picks up the coin he hides it from Michael. Billy has to call him on it after the Skin Walker eats one of his pack. And so on.
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Sure but in Cold Case he still has a lot of trust in Molly, far more than he should have if he knew anything about fairy mantles. There should have been more knowledge about that in the white council but nobody tells anyone anything is not just Harry.
So if Carlos trust in Molly is that big at the start of Cold Case his trust in Harry would have been that much as well.
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Carlos first expresses doubts about Harry at the end of White Knight.This is the second dance around this subject. It happens with almost every character. When he picks up the coin he hides it from Michael. Billy has to call him on it after the Skin Walker eats one of his pack. And so on.
Yeah, very much this. Harry had been lying/concealing information/going behind the backs of all of his friends for years at this point.
Except that unlike with Murphy or Billy, or Butters, when his relationship with Carlos reached a crisis point, Harry refused to admit his fault and instead doubled down on the righteous indignation and "How DARE you doubt me, no matter how blatantly shady I act" because Carlos is a Wizard of the White Council, and Harry refuses to grow past the frightened, angry 16 year old they caught where the White Council is concerned.
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This is the default in the Dresdenverse. Secrets. From everybody. Not only does the left hand not know what the right is doing, it won't even admit to the existence of the right. Jim grew up with the X Files and it shows. So saying that Harry should have trusted Carlos is trite. He likes Carlos but he has never trusted him. Had he, Carlos would have known about Thomas. Who is the root source of the conflict for reasons Jim has hammered out over and over again. It's become tiresome.
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Really, this is all about Merlin because Merlin has a very big Harry problem.
Harry is individually very powerful -- a top 30 wizard in terms of raw Mega-Joules/Second. Harry is also very young, which makes that top 30 status concerning long term.
Harry is also Starborn (which is known to all of the Senior Council).
Harry is also extremely well-connected with Winter, Summer and the White Court. He also has unexplained ties to both Heaven and Hell, from Merlin's point of view. Heaven supports him -- based on his friendly relationship with the Knights; yet, Hell works with him too.
Harry also is The Warden, a position most recently held by ... Kemmler. Merlin understood -- though now everyone else does too -- that Harry possesses supernatural nuclear weapons. Ethniu and the Eye are the least of it, now.
If that were not enough, ...
Harry has supporters among the actual war-fighters -- the Younger Wardens. These are exemplified by Ramirez, Chandler, Yuki and Wild Bill (an actual subordinate of Harry). The commander of the Wardens, Lucio, owes possibly her very life to Harry due to the LaFortier incident (more on this).
Harry is also connected in the Senior Council as well, much more than a roughly 45 year old wizard should. He has unwavering support from McCoy and LtW. Conditional support from Rashid. Potential support from Liberty and possibly Christos as well. Meaning that depending on the issue, Harry has more support than Merlin (who can only rely on Mai). Note well, that the only Senior Council members not sent to the Battle of Chicago are Merlin and Mai. This is one reason that I think Harry might be wrong about Christos, though there are other reasons.
By the by, Harry was the BIGGEST winner in that whole LaFortier mess. LaFortier, Morgan and Peabody die -- none of whom are friends of Harry, really. Morgan and LaFortier were big supporters of Merlin. Luccio is saved and owes favors. Further, Christos may not actually be as anti-Harry (or even anti-Harry at all) despite appearances in Changes. Harry also appeared to be a Hero to much of the assembled council (that survived).
Then Harry completely ends the War with the Reds, seemingly dying in the immediate aftermath, only to rise again to confront the Fomor.
So, if you are Merlin, Harry absolutely f-ing terrifies you to your core. What, therefore, is your reasonable first step? In true British Empire fashion, you secure your power base and divide your enemies. You can't influence Mab or the White Court or Heaven and Hell. However, you can drive Harry apart from the supporters he has among your own people.
You can make Ramirez and the Younger Wardens suspicious of Harry. You can arrange things to get the Senior Council members that support Harry see how in thrall he is to Mab or the White Court or both. The fact that McCoy, LtW and Christos -- the most combat focused of the Senior Council got injured and weren't able to vote for Harry was a nice bonus.
Of course, Merlin also set things up a later win-win with McCoy. Either McCoy goes rogue and refuses to take out Harry and Merlin wins by getting rid of McCoy. OR, McCoy take out Harry and Merlin wins by removing such an unpredictable and dangerous person.
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Sure but in Cold Case he still has a lot of trust in Molly, far more than he should have if he knew anything about fairy mantles. There should have been more knowledge about that in the white council but nobody tells anyone anything is not just Harry.
So if Carlos trust in Molly is that big at the start of Cold Case his trust in Harry would have been that much as well.
A thought just occurred to me reading this post, what if the issue isn't trust, but jealousy? Carlos and Molly have had at least an attraction for one another since they met in White Night. Carlos also knows that she was Harry's apprentice from that time and the closeness between her family and Harry. From what happened in Cold Case, it wasn't just Molly who was ignorant of the sexual rules of the Winter Lady, but Carlos as well. What if out of his ignorance and real physical injuries Carlos assumes that Harry and Molly as Winter Knight and Winter Lady also have a relationship that is sexual in nature? This could also be planted in his mind while he is vulnerable to the idea. Could this have sparked jealousy in Carlos which led him to believe Harry capable of all kinds of things? When he is asking Harry to trust him, it isn't about trust, he wants a confession from Harry.
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From the text I get the impression that Carlos thinks Harry knows about cold case but he does not. Everyone keeps secrets in the dresdenverse and it leads to problems.
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Yeah, Harry is stuck on the island incommunicado during Cold Case. And the only ones who know all the details are Mab, Molly and Carlos. Of those three, Carlos is the least secretive though Molly is probably not by choice.
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From the text I get the impression that Carlos thinks Harry knows about cold case but he does not. Everyone keeps secrets in the dresdenverse and it leads to problems.
Hence, Carlos keeps asking Harry to "talk to him," when Harry doesn't know what happened between him and Molly, and also doesn't seem to understand there are some things Harry cannot talk about.
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From the text I get the impression that Carlos thinks Harry knows about cold case but he does not. Everyone keeps secrets in the dresdenverse and it leads to problems.
I agree, I think Carlos doesn't know that Harry is unaware of the Cold Case incident. Also...I think it's fair to say everyone keeps secrets and it leads to problems, period. In all universes, especially in ours ;)
Harry also is The Warden, a position most recently held by ... Kemmler.
Not actually Kemmler most recently. There was a Warden in-between but we don't know who. There may have even been two come to think of it. My guess is Justin was one of the recent Wardens. But he didn't tell anyone. There is a reason he lived in Chicago, after all. Maggie Le Fay is also a possible candidate.
Really, this is all about Merlin because Merlin has a very big Harry problem.
...
So, if you are Merlin, Harry absolutely f-ing terrifies you to your core. What, therefore, is your reasonable first step? In true British Empire fashion, you secure your power base and divide your enemies. You can't influence Mab or the White Court or Heaven and Hell. However, you can drive Harry apart from the supporters he has among your own people.
You can make Ramirez and the Younger Wardens suspicious of Harry. You can arrange things to get the Senior Council members that support Harry see how in thrall he is to Mab or the White Court or both. The fact that McCoy, LtW and Christos -- the most combat focused of the Senior Council got injured and weren't able to vote for Harry was a nice bonus.
Of course, Merlin also set things up a later win-win with McCoy. Either McCoy goes rogue and refuses to take out Harry and Merlin wins by getting rid of McCoy. OR, McCoy take out Harry and Merlin wins by removing such an unpredictable and dangerous person.
I agree, although I am not so sure that he's afraid of Harry per se. We know the White Council had/has plans for Harry to do with his star born nature. We don't know what they are, but the plans and the fact they were kept from Harry make even relatively manipulative and deceitful beings pause, and make Ebenezar feel ashamed. So I think this is more Arthur Langtry trying to clean up a mess he is responsible for.
I suspect the plans were a "greater good" type of deal, but the poor unfortunate who has to be sacrificed is Harry.
A thought just occurred to me reading this post, what if the issue isn't trust, but jealousy? Carlos and Molly have had at least an attraction for one another since they met in White Night. Carlos also knows that she was Harry's apprentice from that time and the closeness between her family and Harry. From what happened in Cold Case, it wasn't just Molly who was ignorant of the sexual rules of the Winter Lady, but Carlos as well. What if out of his ignorance and real physical injuries Carlos assumes that Harry and Molly as Winter Knight and Winter Lady also have a relationship that is sexual in nature? This could also be planted in his mind while he is vulnerable to the idea. Could this have sparked jealousy in Carlos which led him to believe Harry capable of all kinds of things? When he is asking Harry to trust him, it isn't about trust, he wants a confession from Harry.
Oddly enough, I think you're right (but from the opposite angle). I got an odd impression of jealousy when I read Cold Case, not from Harry but from Jim. It was almost like Carlos wasn't "allowed" to touch Molly, and Molly was to be protected. Or rather, her "purity". The whole scene bothered me. Don't get me wrong, I understood the logic of the scene. I just didn't like what the scene was saying, whether that was the intention of the scene or not.
I suspect when Harry finds out that Molly was prepared to sleep with Carlos, despite what ended up happening, Harry isn't exactly going to be cool with it. Particularly inner Harry.
But your theory stacks up as well. Carlos could well be jealous of Harry's possible relationship with Molly. Whether Harry acknowledges it or not (and think about how long it took for him to acknowledge his feels for Murphy), Harry and Molly have an emotional connection that is more than just familial or friendly. Molly of course is deeply in-love with Harry. But Harry can't get past his own hang-ups and admit to himself how he feels. And while I am deeply glad he never took advantage of their unequal relationship earlier in the series...things are different now. It's actually been pointed out to him more than once. Knowing how Jim works these things, I'd say it will take a few more books before anything happens - in which case I would be worried about Molly's survival.
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Maybe I'm stupid for thinking this. But this seems to be Cassius death curse writ in giant burning letters. Die Alone. Did I miss some women who got out of Harry's orbit in one piece? And Jim has already said that Molly's fate is dark. And I don't think Harry knows that the Ladies eat men who try to make babies with them. Nobody is stupid enough to have that discussion with Carlos knowing what she did to him.
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Maybe I'm stupid for thinking this. But this seems to be Cassius death curse writ in giant burning letters. Die Alone. Did I miss some women who got out of Harry's orbit in one piece? And Jim has already said that Molly's fate is dark. And I don't think Harry knows that the Ladies eat men who try to make babies with them. Nobody is stupid enough to have that discussion with Carlos knowing what she did to him.
Not afterwards but it seems that the white council has little knowledge about the creatures it has to interact with and interacted with for ages. Little shared knowledge anyway.
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Not afterwards but it seems that the white council has little knowledge about the creatures it has to interact with and interacted with for ages. Little shared knowledge anyway.
What speaks to that is Molly, herself, didn't know. Mab saw fit to tell her all kinds of things about her new role, but left that little fact out. One has to wonder why, especially in the light that that little bit of knowledge led to the frustration and downfall of her daughter, Maeve. So I'd say that it isn't a general knowledge thing, however looking objectively at Maeve's downfall, some might guess that this was the case. Who knows what Mab's motive for not telling Molly was, unless she thought experience would be a better teacher than anything she could say to Molly.
Carlos is a man of pride and a Warden of the White Council, do you think if he can avoid it he is going to reveal the truth of what really happened to him? 1] He has to openly admit that it was out of his own sexual frustration that he lost control with Molly while still technically on duty. Yes, I know his virginity has been an open joke in many ways, but outside of his inner circle who really knows about it? His cultural heritage alone wouldn't let that get out. Even if the incident itself was over I'd think until he returned to headquarters he'd still be considered on duty. This would blow his image of being one of the best Wardens of the White Council, maybe even get him removed from the force. It could even be that someone who knows about it is trying to blackmail Carlos with it to get to Harry.. 2] Carlos would have to openly admit that he was so ignorant of the Winter Court and their Ladies, that he'd leave himself open to what happened to him? In other words, at that moment he totally forgot what Molly had become, instead treated her like she was still the attractive woman/apprentice to Harry, that he had always been attracted to. If for no other reason, Carlos himself would do his best that the word wouldn't get out.
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Maybe I'm stupid for thinking this. But this seems to be Cassius death curse writ in giant burning letters. Die Alone. Did I miss some women who got out of Harry's orbit in one piece? And Jim has already said that Molly's fate is dark. And I don't think Harry knows that the Ladies eat men who try to make babies with them. Nobody is stupid enough to have that discussion with Carlos knowing what she did to him.
I would agree, but women died around him and Harry was lonely prior to the death curse. I think it's more to do with Harry's fate, his lifestyle.
Not afterwards but it seems that the white council has little knowledge about the creatures it has to interact with and interacted with for ages. Little shared knowledge anyway.
To quote the Gatekeeper "the Council knows as much as it needs to". But Harry's education was fairly patchy too so I am not sure he is a good indicator of "common" knowledge.
I doubt many apart from the Fae know about the Ladies tendency to kill (or attempt to kill) potential mates. This is dangerous information to be known by others, because a clever person could work out the mantle was defending itself, and therefore believes it is vulnerable. If someone wished to unmake a mantle, to seriously unbalance a Court of Faerie, they could attempt to seduce a Lady. This is the mantle's defence mechanism.
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I would agree, but women died around him and Harry was lonely prior to the death curse. I think it's more to do with Harry's fate, his lifestyle.
To quote the Gatekeeper "the Council knows as much as it needs to". But Harry's education was fairly patchy too so I am not sure he is a good indicator of "common" knowledge.
I doubt many apart from the Fae know about the Ladies tendency to kill (or attempt to kill) potential mates. This is dangerous information to be known by others, because a clever person could work out the mantle was defending itself, and therefore believes it is vulnerable. If someone wished to unmake a mantle, to seriously unbalance a Court of Faerie, they could attempt to seduce a Lady. This is the mantle's defence mechanism.
It is nut just Harry and his lack of knowledge is explainable.
Ebenezer’s knowledge of the white court and the svartalves and the Sidhe courts does not go far either and he is senior council.
They send a party to Marcone and they are not briefed about einherjar?
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It is nut just Harry and his lack of knowledge is explainable.
Ebenezer’s knowledge of the white court and the svartalves and the Sidhe courts does not go far either and he is senior council.
They send a party to Marcone and they are not briefed about einherjar?
Or is the White Council, especially the Senior Council a lot like a lot of bureaucratic powerful organizations that have been around way too long without change? So embedded in the the contemplation of their own belly buttons and petty fears that they cannot see what really is happening beyond their wizard noses?
This is what Margaret Dresden was fighting against from the get go, in my opinion.
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It is nut just Harry and his lack of knowledge is explainable.
Ebenezer’s knowledge of the white court and the svartalves and the Sidhe courts does not go far either and he is senior council.
They send a party to Marcone and they are not briefed about einherjar?
I am not sure what you mean about Ebenezar...are you saying he doesn't know about Einherjar? I don't quite understand what Ebenezar is supposed to know or have known about the Einherjar or the Svartalves or the Sidhe Courts. His knowledge seems fairly good to me, but it isn't like it's been tested much either. Has he been wrong about a few things in regards to those groups or has he seemingly been unaware of what should be basic information?
Also, what party to Marcone? Is this the White Council going to the Peace Talks?
Or is the White Council, especially the Senior Council a lot like a lot of bureaucratic powerful organizations that have been around way too long without change? So embedded in the the contemplation of their own belly buttons and petty fears that they cannot see what really is happening beyond their wizard noses?
This is what Margaret Dresden was fighting against from the get go, in my opinion.
Sure, there is definitely some of that going on. However, Jim did point out that Harry has a very limited idea of what the White Council knows or does, particularly when it comes to the Merlin and the other Senior Council members. So we've got a bit of a biased view as we've only seen things from Harry's narrow perspective. Perhaps Jim will give us some insight to how the operate and their knowledge from a better insiders view (e.g. a short story from the Merlin's perspective or something).
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I suspect when Harry finds out that Molly was prepared to sleep with Carlos, despite what ended up happening, Harry isn't exactly going to be cool with it. Particularly inner Harry.
I'm not sure he's going to find out at all. But he wanted her to stop pining after him, so her finding an alternative attachment with an age-appropriate good (at the time, anyway) person seems like about the best case scenario. I'd think he'd be more sorry for her tragic predicament.
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I am not sure what you mean about Ebenezar...are you saying he doesn't know about Einherjar? I don't quite understand what Ebenezar is supposed to know or have known about the Einherjar or the Svartalves or the Sidhe Courts. His knowledge seems fairly good to me, but it isn't like it's been tested much either. Has he been wrong about a few things in regards to those groups or has he seemingly been unaware of what should be basic information?
Also, what party to Marcone? Is this the White Council going to the Peace Talks?
Sure, there is definitely some of that going on. However, Jim did point out that Harry has a very limited idea of what the White Council knows or does, particularly when it comes to the Merlin and the other Senior Council members. So we've got a bit of a biased view as we've only seen things from Harry's narrow perspective. Perhaps Jim will give us some insight to how the operate and their knowledge from a better insiders view (e.g. a short story from the Merlin's perspective or something).
White council in peace talks. Ebenezer and Harry explain to the rest of the group what einherjar are when they are already there. They are just not well prepared.
Ebenezer does not know what makes them tick. It is just they are monsters, they eat you, don’t trust them (kill them if you get the chance).
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Sure, there is definitely some of that going on. However, Jim did point out that Harry has a very limited idea of what the White Council knows or does, particularly when it comes to the Merlin and the other Senior Council members. So we've got a bit of a biased view as we've only seen things from Harry's narrow perspective. Perhaps Jim will give us some insight to how the operate and their knowledge from a better insiders view (e.g. a short story from the Merlin's perspective or something).
We do have the opinion of Rashid on the matter of what the Senior Council knows, if Harry is retelling it correctly. Now to be fair, Rashid was telling him what the Council knows of their roles, but from that one can extrapolate that the Council doesn't know all that much as to how the Winter Court functions.
page 341 Cold Days, Outer Gates
"I know precisely how it feels to be where you are." He gestured back towards the battleground. "Precisely." He seemed to think about it for a moment, and then nodded. "I will do what I can. If we both survive the next several hours, I will settle matters between you and the Council,which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to--and that isn't much."
So what goes on at the Outer Gates and within the Winter Court on a "need to know basis" only? Is that what Rashid was saying? Only the very top levels of the Senior Council need to know? Or is Rashid saying that the Council is for the most part closing their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears while singing "la,la,la..."? I think the latter, do they think it will go away if they turn a blind eye to the problem? Or perhaps thirdly Rashid deliberately keeps secrets from the Council because he suspects traitors with in the ranks? Or is he acting on Mab's orders to keep the Council in the dark? So while Harry may have a limited idea of what the Council knows, I'd say that Rashid's idea of what the Council knows, and don't know, is far from limited.
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I'm not sure he's going to find out at all. But he wanted her to stop pining after him, so her finding an alternative attachment with an age-appropriate good (at the time, anyway) person seems like about the best case scenario. I'd think he'd be more sorry for her tragic predicament.
Perhaps he won't but why waste a good bit of drama? He did want that...but would it really surprise us if Harry felt jealousy? He's not known what he wanted before, and he can be a hypocritical as anyone. I agree, he probably will be sorry for her though.
White council in peace talks. Ebenezer and Harry explain to the rest of the group what einherjar are when they are already there. They are just not well prepared.
Ebenezer does not know what makes them tick. It is just they are monsters, they eat you, don’t trust them (kill them if you get the chance).
The group he is explaining to consisted of four Wardens younger than Ramirez, in particular Wild Bill. Harry and Ramirez already know about Einherjaren. If anything, the only one who seems unclear on them is Wild Bill. We could include Yoshimo, but we would be assuming. Chandler is quite well educated, and is around Harry's own age, and likely had a more normal (if not better) magical education (let alone mortal education). Ebenezar's information is sound. So I don't think that argument holds up.
Again, I am not sure what you mean here. I assume by them you mean the White Court, the Sidhe, the Svartalves? To which I would point out that Ebenezar knows quite a lot about them, perhaps more than Dresden (despite Harry's sometimes unique perspective). Unless there is something I am missing, I am not sure how it's clear that Ebenezar doesn't know about them. He might not empathise with them, but that doesn't mean he doesn't understand what they are and how they work.
We do have the opinion of Rashid on the matter of what the Senior Council knows, if Harry is retelling it correctly. Now to be fair, Rashid was telling him what the Council knows of their roles, but from that one can extrapolate that the Council doesn't know all that much as to how the Winter Court functions.
page 341 Cold Days, Outer Gates
So what goes on at the Outer Gates and within the Winter Court on a "need to know basis" only? Is that what Rashid was saying? Only the very top levels of the Senior Council need to know? Or is Rashid saying that the Council is for the most part closing their eyes and putting their fingers in their ears while singing "la,la,la..."? I think the latter, do they think it will go away if they turn a blind eye to the problem? Or perhaps thirdly Rashid deliberately keeps secrets from the Council because he suspects traitors with in the ranks? Or is he acting on Mab's orders to keep the Council in the dark? So while Harry may have a limited idea of what the Council knows, I'd say that Rashid's idea of what the Council knows, and don't know, is far from limited.
Yes, but we don't have Rashid's perspective. It isn't like the scene is from his point of view. And with regards to that scene in particular, he is referring to what the Council as a whole (not the Senior Council) knows about the role of the Gatekeeper and the Warden of Demonreach, as you point out. The Council at large may not be aware of too much of the internal dynamics of the Winter Court. But there are specialists on the Council like Ancient Mai, and I wouldn't be so sure that the Senior Council wizards know less than Harry. They've been around the longest (with the exception of Cristos) and they have accumulated a hell of a lot of knowledge. Plus there are plenty of senior wizards around who may well know more than the "average" wizard.
I think you're closer with your first idea. It's a need-to-know thing. Think about the 7th Law of Magic. The one they take so seriously that they execute wizards for even researching the Outside. I'd say it's far more of an operational security thing than the Council deciding to be wilfully ignorant. They are far more concerned that angry wizards in trying to gain power might endanger reality. Seems a pretty good reason to not let the Council on the whole know too much about that part of Winter. But I don't believe the Senior Council are unaware of that stuff, to varying levels. Remember, Ebenezar knows about the role of the Warden, and in his diary implies the other Senior Council members do too (because they want to execute Harry) - this is in Turn Coat I believe.
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I think you're closer with your first idea. It's a need-to-know thing. Think about the 7th Law of Magic. The one they take so seriously that they execute wizards for even researching the Outside. I'd say it's far more of an operational security thing than the Council deciding to be wilfully ignorant. They are far more concerned that angry wizards in trying to gain power might endanger reality. Seems a pretty good reason to not let the Council on the whole know too much about that part of Winter. But I don't believe the Senior Council are unaware of that stuff, to varying levels. Remember, Ebenezar knows about the role of the Warden, and in his diary implies the other Senior Council members do too (because they want to execute Harry) - this is in Turn Coat I believe.
The bit that is interesting in that journal, is it is implied that the title Warden of that island, [won't call it Demonreach because that is Harry's name for it] is a mantle. That sets is apart from being a Warden of the White Council, not even if you are the Captain of the Wardens is a mantle. "Mantle" in the Dresdenverse means acquiring a power of some kind, and it can do stuff to the one acquiring it as we see in Harry's struggle with the Winter Knight's Mantle. They seem to know what resides on that island, how dangerous it is, apparently there have been other Wardens in the past. Yet they have chosen to leave that position unfilled.. Why? Rashid seemed to think that Harry could handle the job, and Eb more or less concurred, but that was before Harry also acquired the mantle of Winter Knight. Now you can make the argument that the Merlin, Gatekeeper, and Blackstaff are all mantles, but only Harry as far as we know wears two, and they don't even know that he is also Custodian of the Holy Swords. Which could also be called a mantle of sorts, because of the authority to give them out isn't something one can just assume.
As we saw in Battleground, being Warden of the Island carries huge power. Power I don't think Harry is fully aware of, even yet. I think that is what the Council is afraid of, if indeed Kemmler was the last Warden of the Island. Was he corrupted by it and tapped as Rashid warned Harry against the power of it's leyline?
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The Warden is not a Mantle. It is a title that comes with taking up the power and responsibility of watching over the island. Demonreach also hinted in CD that the title predated the the Wardens of the White Council.("First there was one, now there are many.")That implies that the White Council Wardens were founded by one of the early Wardens of Demonreach.
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The group he is explaining to consisted of four Wardens younger than Ramirez, in particular Wild Bill. Harry and Ramirez already know about Einherjaren. If anything, the only one who seems unclear on them is Wild Bill. We could include Yoshimo, but we would be assuming. Chandler is quite well educated, and is around Harry's own age, and likely had a more normal (if not better) magical education (let alone mortal education). Ebenezar's information is sound. So I don't think that argument holds up.
They are not briefed. They are not prepared. If you go to such a meeting you need to know these essential things. Read the reports.
Again, I am not sure what you mean here. I assume by them you mean the White Court, the Sidhe, the Svartalves? To which I would point out that Ebenezar knows quite a lot about them, perhaps more than Dresden (despite Harry's sometimes unique perspective). Unless there is something I am missing, I am not sure how it's clear that Ebenezar doesn't know about them. He might not empathise with them, but that doesn't mean he doesn't understand what they are and how they work.
He does not understand the web of duties and obligations Harry is working under so he asks impossible things and does not understand what Harry is doing. It is all over the book.
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The Warden is not a Mantle. It is a title that comes with taking up the power and responsibility of watching over the island. Demonreach also hinted in CD that the title predated the the Wardens of the White Council.("First there was one, now there are many.")That implies that the White Council Wardens were founded by one of the early Wardens of Demonreach.
I'm not so sure about that.
Here is what Eb said in his journal; Turn Coat page 379
There are a couple of really interesting comments that I will highlight
. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
Rashid says warning him about the island would be pointless. He's a good judge of
people, but I'm not so sure he's right this time. The boy's got a solid head on his shoulders, generally. And if all the wizards I know, he is among the three or four I'd be willing to see take up that particular mantle. I trust his judgement.
1] As we know or knew, Harry had no clue what he was getting himself into.
2] When the Merlin finds out about what Harry did he wants him watched. Watched for what?
being corrupted by the power he now has in his hands? Like Kemmler? How did that happen?
3] Eb calls it a mantle, no mistake, a mantle.. No, it doesn't enter his body like the mantle of the Winter Knight perhaps, however Harry's power and reach has increased who knows how many times over. He was able to put a Titian away, that speaks to great power at his finger tips, and that kind of power can corrupt.
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The bit that is interesting in that journal, is it is implied that the title Warden of that island, [won't call it Demonreach because that is Harry's name for it] is a mantle. That sets is apart from being a Warden of the White Council, not even if you are the Captain of the Wardens is a mantle. "Mantle" in the Dresdenverse means acquiring a power of some kind, and it can do stuff to the one acquiring it as we see in Harry's struggle with the Winter Knight's Mantle. They seem to know what resides on that island, how dangerous it is, apparently there have been other Wardens in the past. Yet they have chosen to leave that position unfilled.. Why? Rashid seemed to think that Harry could handle the job, and Eb more or less concurred, but that was before Harry also acquired the mantle of Winter Knight. Now you can make the argument that the Merlin, Gatekeeper, and Blackstaff are all mantles, but only Harry as far as we know wears two, and they don't even know that he is also Custodian of the Holy Swords. Which could also be called a mantle of sorts, because of the authority to give them out isn't something one can just assume.
As we saw in Battleground, being Warden of the Island carries huge power. Power I don't think Harry is fully aware of, even yet. I think that is what the Council is afraid of, if indeed Kemmler was the last Warden of the Island. Was he corrupted by it and tapped as Rashid warned Harry against the power of it's leyline?
Not just implied, but outright stated it is a mantle. Whether it is a mantle like the Winter Knight that comes with powers etc or whether it's more like the mantle of being given an office of responsibility is the real question, as you imply. Mantle has two meanings in the Dresden Files, our meaning (i.e. an office or rank like being President) or a magical one (a powerful magical boost alongside the office of responsibility). My guess is that it's somewhere in-between. He definitely brings some of that power with him (his magic now is green and gold). But it doesn't seem anywhere near the same as his Winter Knight mantle. Demonreach is very limited beyond the lake, perhaps literally.
Jim answered why they left it unfilled btw. He said that anyone who claimed it would be all the reason the Senior Council would need to execute (particularly if it was one of them, it would be all the reason they need to start pointing fingers and be like "they're the bad guy, get them"). In their minds, no one would be insane or stupid enough now. Well, almost no one...
Harry has definitely used *some* of the Island's power. See the fight scene in Battle Ground between him, Lara and Freydis. But, it isn't clear if he is just using latent energy that Merlin used OR the leyline. My guess is the former but it's not totally clear.
1] As we know or knew, Harry had no clue what he was getting himself into.
2] When the Merlin finds out about what Harry did he wants him watched. Watched for what?
being corrupted by the power he now has in his hands? Like Kemmler? How did that happen?
3] Eb calls it a mantle, no mistake, a mantle.. No, it doesn't enter his body like the mantle of the Winter Knight perhaps, however Harry's power and reach has increased who knows how many times over. He was able to put a Titian away, that speaks to great power at his finger tips, and that kind of power can corrupt.
I think the Merlin was naturally cautious. As I said above, the Senior Council didn't want ANYONE to have the mantle of Warden, to be the Warden of Demonreach. Harry gives as much of an explanation as any in Cold Days (I think). Yeah, I think the Merlin was only acting normally from his perspective. I think he is less worried about the ley line corrupting Harry as much as Harry releasing monsters from Demonreach, or using them as his personal weapons. Harry's own island of demonic and insane pokemon.
As I said earlier, the mantle definition is tricky. Somewhere in the middle. I mean, why should all mantles work the same eh?
The Warden is not a Mantle. It is a title that comes with taking up the power and responsibility of watching over the island. Demonreach also hinted in CD that the title predated the the Wardens of the White Council.("First there was one, now there are many.")That implies that the White Council Wardens were founded by one of the early Wardens of Demonreach.
Yes and no. It's a mantle in the normal sense. It's less clear if it is a mantle in the magical sense. I mean, it sure predates the White Council because the guy who made the White Council was the first one, built the prison and got the t-shirt. He also built it in multiple times, so conceivably the prison existed hundreds if not thousands of years before Merlin first made the Council. It's hard with time-travellers because who knows when he is originally from.
They are not briefed. They are not prepared. If you go to such a meeting you need to know these essential things. Read the reports.
He does not understand the web of duties and obligations Harry is working under so he asks impossible things and does not understand what Harry is doing. It is all over the book.
By "they" I assume you mean Wild Bill (who asked the question), and possibly Yoshimo and Chandler. Ramirez clearly knows as he acknowledges them when Harry reminds him Marcone has some. I mean, you're assuming there were reports to read. Anyway, Chandler is around Dresden's age too, might even be older. It's hard to say. It seems to me that Harry and Ebenezar were explaining Einherjar as a quick reminder to Wild Bill and included everyone as a matter of politeness and simplicity. If it's just Wild Bill who doesn't understand, it's more complicated to have to pull him aside and explain (or have a scene where every other character shows they know). I mean, the explanation is just as much for the reader as anything else. Jim often re-explains things even when he doesn't have to (and it occasionally it isn't needed or doesn't really make sense). It's part of his writing style. Have a character ask a question so that another character can provide some exposition to the audience. That's the Doylist explanation.
Ah, I see what you're getting at about Ebenezar. Well, it is possible he doesn't understand the duties and obligations. He would only know that Harry has some, not necessarily the specifics (which isn't unreasonable considering no one has told Ebenezar about what Harry is meant to do for Mab and for Lara, and he doesn't yet know of the Thomas connection). But I think it's still quite the step to say he doesn't understand that Harry HAS obligations and duties that might conflict with his White Council ones. They even discuss it as much in Changes, right at the end. Eb acknowledges that he has made deals before, too. And he gives Harry the very good advice (that Harry gets time and time again) that no can actually change Harry but himself, despite that all the old monsters will try and convince him otherwise. The monsters can make Harry do things, but not CHOOSE to do them. It's an important distinction. But I don't believe that Ebenezar just thinks of supernatural nations as pure monsters. He knows about their politics, their way of doing things, some of their history and some of their secrets. Even though he hates the White Court, he seems to know their nature and their game. He might not know all their internal politics and operations, but he would know enough to do business with them (and to fight them of course). He also doesn't seem to hate the Svartalves, just knows to show strength sometimes is better than looking weak (at least, in his point of view). I don't think he particularly hates the Sidhe Courts either. Considering where he got his staff, I would say he knows a few things about Winter at the least.
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I think the Merlin was naturally cautious. As I said above, the Senior Council didn't want ANYONE to have the mantle of Warden, to be the Warden of Demonreach. Harry gives as much of an explanation as any in Cold Days (I think). Yeah, I think the Merlin was only acting normally from his perspective. I think he is less worried about the ley line corrupting Harry as much as Harry releasing monsters from Demonreach, or using them as his personal weapons. Harry's own island of demonic and insane pokemon.
I still think it goes deeper that the Merlin merely acting normally. The has to be a reason why the Island has been without a Warden for so long. I actually think Eb is relieved that the Island has a Warden once more.
. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
Basically he is saying, "thank God someone is in charge of the Island again." Even if it is Harry who stumbled into the job. Again the question is why is the Senior Council or many on the Senior Council so opposed to the Island having a Warden? Eb seems to think it is out of ignorance, ignorance of what? What happened? Does it all go back to Kemmler? Does the Merlin so fear that the next Warden will turn out the same way that he prefers a less secure Island to one with it's defenses fully functional?
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I still think it goes deeper that the Merlin merely acting normally. The has to be a reason why the Island has been without a Warden for so long. I actually think Eb is relieved that the Island has a Warden once more.
Basically he is saying, "thank God someone is in charge of the Island again." Even if it is Harry who stumbled into the job. Again the question is why is the Senior Council or many on the Senior Council so opposed to the Island having a Warden? Eb seems to think it is out of ignorance, ignorance of what? What happened? Does it all go back to Kemmler? Does the Merlin so fear that the next Warden will turn out the same way that he prefers a less secure Island to one with it's defenses fully functional?
There IS a reason - since the last Warden, anyone who tries to take it would be executed. Threat of execution is a strong deterrent. As for if it were a Senior Council wizard (or another wizard of significant age, power, and political sway with enough allies) it would probably amount to civil war. That's why there has been no Warden for some time. The WOJ on this is in a Q&A that shouldn't be too hard to find, I think it was in the 20 years of Dresden interview with Priscilla (it's on YouTube).
I agree, Eb does seem somewhat thankful. Considering he is the most combat capable wizard on the planet, I am not so sure that's a vote in Harry's favor. But he is fairly wise as well.
But the considering the power that the Island has, and could grant a wizard...not to mention an army of dark monsters and gods that said wizard could release, if not control. Why on Earth would they want anyone to have that? Kemmler is a good indication, but there have been at least two Wardens between him and Harry. I think the Merlin is aware the Island is secure enough from most attempts.
And as Harry is starting to realise, Demonreach hides things. It might not be such a good thing to be the Warden in the end. Any wizard who knows enough about the Island might think twice anyway regardless of the White Council issues, just because of the danger the Island itself poses to them personally. Not to mention all the evil characters who might want the Warden to release their friends. Harry has a giant target on him that says "Bribe me, torture me, kill me...or my loved ones". Even Rashid hints he has gained a lot more problems by being Warden.
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But the considering the power that the Island has, and could grant a wizard...not to mention an army of dark monsters and gods that said wizard could release, if not control. Why on Earth would they want anyone to have that? Kemmler is a good indication, but there have been at least two Wardens between him and Harry. I think the Merlin is aware the Island is secure enough from most attempts.
Yet the Merlin is willing to allow the Blackstaff to remain in the hands of one wizard. Now I realize that perhaps Eb couldn't do as much damage as all the monsters on the Island being turned loose, but still with that staff he could do a lot of damage. The point is, how does the Merlin know the island is secure enough without a Warden? Just because no one has been successful in getting in during the last hundred years doesn't mean that it is. It only speaks of a lack of imagination..
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Yet the Merlin is willing to allow the Blackstaff to remain in the hands of one wizard. Now I realize that perhaps Eb couldn't do as much damage as all the monsters on the Island being turned loose, but still with that staff he could do a lot of damage. The point is, how does the Merlin know the island is secure enough without a Warden? Just because no one has been successful in getting in during the last hundred years doesn't mean that it is. It only speaks of a lack of imagination..
I don't think the Merlin has a lot of choice about the Blackstaff. I think if he could give it to another he would have by now. That could be because Ebenezar is too strong or it would be too overt or whatever, but I suspect it might be to do with the magic of the Blackstaff itself. I suspect it can only be given, or picked up, not stolen. Which means, like it or not, the Merlin must accept it.
I mean, who says he the Merlin hasn't spent a lot of time making sure most people don't get near it? We don't know what measures he has undertaken. Harry took the Island in a period when the White Council was particularly distracted and very low on resources. Almost the perfect time to grab the Island. No Wardens available to defend it or monitor it, or any other wizards for that matter. The White Council was reeling from the savage assault by the Red Court.
I don't think it's so much a matter of the Merlin thinking it's secure without a Warden, although as I say the Island has plenty of defences, and very few wizards who would be brave/stupid/insane enough to actually go and find the Island and try and claim it, would be around. Cowl could have claimed it, or Justin. And perhaps they did at different times (as we know there were at least two people between Kemmler and Harry). But why not Corpsetaker or Grevane? Both are mad and powerful enough? My guess is the Island wouldn't like them much, but also the White Council might have monitoring (most years) for just such a thing.
And as I said earlier, anyone who tries to claim it is considered Voldemort, according to Jim. That's just the facts we have to work with. It's just a matter of human nature then. If you go and do x, we will kill you. So all those wizards on the White Council who might have thought about it would know better than to try, as everyone would go for them.
You want a good example, just look at what Harry has done to be kicked off the White Council. If he were Kemmler, he could have unleashed an army of dark monsters. He could have sent dark gods to wipe out his foes etc. Harry has been accused of being basically the new Dark Lord and yet really hasn't made a bid for control. That being said, the White Council is terrified at how much personal power he has and how much protection, and how much he has achieved. No wonder they fear him.
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I don't think the Merlin has a lot of choice about the Blackstaff. I think if he could give it to another he would have by now. That could be because Ebenezar is too strong or it would be too overt or whatever, but I suspect it might be to do with the magic of the Blackstaff itself. I suspect it can only be given, or picked up, not stolen. Which means, like it or not, the Merlin must accept it.
Possible, but I don't think it is that simple, if it were, you'd think that Mother Winter would have retrieved her walking stick a long time ago.
And as I said earlier, anyone who tries to claim it is considered Voldemort, according to Jim. That's just the facts we have to work with. It's just a matter of human nature then. If you go and do x, we will kill you. So all those wizards on the White Council who might have thought about it would know better than to try, as everyone would go for them.
I never got past "Harry Potter and the Blood Prince," for a number of reasons.. Anywho, Voldemort is also "He, who must not be named" So Jim may have meant merely that the Council do not want the name of the Warden to get out. If everyone knew who the Warden was, he/she'd be a target for someone who wanted to gain access. That is my theory, I don't know WOJ as to why he said that.
But the Council has never openly said, "if you go to the Island to become Warden we will kill you." On the contrary it was merely removed from the map, and it is the Island, "that must not be named" rather than it's Warden.
You want a good example, just look at what Harry has done to be kicked off the White Council. If he were Kemmler, he could have unleashed an army of dark monsters. He could have sent dark gods to wipe out his foes etc. Harry has been accused of being basically the new Dark Lord and yet really hasn't made a bid for control. That being said, the White Council is terrified at how much personal power he has and how much protection, and how much he has achieved. No wonder they fear him.
But is he really considered the new Dark Lord though? Or merely someone who in a very short time has acquired a lot of power that is mostly out of their jurisdiction, i.e. Winter Knight and Warden of the Island, oh yeah, starborn, and they cannot control him... The last is what scares them, they fear what they cannot control, if they cannot control him/her, ergo he or she will go warlock on
steroids... The starborn bit is interesting though, my theory is originally the Senior Council wanted a starborn created, but one of their own that they could control.. With Harry they were hoisted by their own petard.
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Possible, but I don't think it is that simple, if it were, you'd think that Mother Winter would have retrieved her walking stick a long time ago.
I never got past "Harry Potter and the Blood Prince," for a number of reasons.. Anywho, Voldemort is also "He, who must not be named" So Jim may have meant merely that the Council do not want the name of the Warden to get out. If everyone knew who the Warden was, he/she'd be a target for someone who wanted to gain access. That is my theory, I don't know WOJ as to why he said that.
But the Council has never openly said, "if you go to the Island to become Warden we will kill you." On the contrary it was merely removed from the map, and it is the Island, "that must not be named" rather than it's Warden.
But is he really considered the new Dark Lord though? Or merely someone who in a very short time has acquired a lot of power that is mostly out of their jurisdiction, i.e. Winter Knight and Warden of the Island, oh yeah, starborn, and they cannot control him... The last is what scares them, they fear what they cannot control, if they cannot control him/her, ergo he or she will go warlock on
steroids... The starborn bit is interesting though, my theory is originally the Senior Council wanted a starborn created, but one of their own that they could control.. With Harry they were hoisted by their own petard.
I am not sure I follow about Mother Winter. If the staff can only be given, not taken for example - it's harder for her to get it back as she has to get someone to willingly hand it over. We don't really know how it works. But I suspect the other reason she doesn't get it is because no one would be stupid enough to walk up to her with it, and because she doesn't seem to leave her cottage now (or only very rarely at any rate) I suspect it's reasonably easy to avoid that sort of confrontation.
Jim might have meant they were guarding the name, but I will give you the quote and you'll see what he was getting at. I was wrong about what video, it's from the Barbarra Books Q&A https://www.crowdcast.io/e/jim-butche (https://www.crowdcast.io/e/jim-butche) and go to 24:37 and he starts to discuss who the previous Wardens were and how long, and then at 26:35 or so he outlines why no one has taken the position for a while. He didn't call them the next Voldemort in this interview, that was just my shorthand.
The point is though, that the Council didn't feel they needed to say they would kill whoever did it because a) they didn't think anyone would be crazy/suicidal enough to do it and b) because they thought anyone who would do it would be someone very, very bad. And then Harry stumbled in and made them all wonder again for the umpteenth time if he really is evil or if he's just an idiot.
I suspect Demonreach has another name (if not several). That's not uncommon, particularly for places and especially in this series. The Native American people would call it something different to Harry, the Council likely know an older name (perhaps Merlin's name for it) but there are many languages as well (not just human either).
I really don't know if Harry is considered the new Dark Lord, we will have to read the next book to really know that. But I suspect it was a part of the argument to kick him off the Council. As far as the Council are concerned, anyone who gathers a lot of power in a short amount of time out of their jurisdiction IS a threat, and therefore it's semantics whether they are really evil or not (to the Council anyway). They don't like opposition. Cowl hints at this being part of the reason the Black Council exists. The White Council, like any tyrant, is often largely responsible for creating their own worst enemy and arming them with the exact weapons required to bring them down. Tyrants can't help it really.
Whether they are actually concerned (although some surely are) that he will go Warlock, or that he is Black Council doesn't matter too much (with the exception that it might convince the more lenient allies of Harry like LtW and Ebenezar to side against him). They see him as a large, uncontrollable opposition with too much power and influence.
This gets to the heart of the issue with the White Council, and any governing body. The right of the individual versus the right of the majority. The White Council's authority (like any powerful governing body) derives from it's ability to enforce it's will onto others and still maintain control over their domain. They then must claim legitimacy either through divine right, or something similar, but often it's really just might. Why should the Council be allowed to kill Harry, or to control Wizards, or stop them doing time magic or whatever? Ultimately, the Council is a collection of individuals backed by a large(ish) and powerful group of people that have decided that it's better to have a governing body than let chaos ensue with no one in charge. Doesn't mean they are legitimate. But if most people have decided something, normally that's the way it goes. A single person's right don't necessarily count for more than everyone else's. But not necessarily less either. It's a huge, complex philosophical issue humans have been trying to solve since day one. We are more sophisticated in some ways today but it always essentially boils down to who has the power. And it likely always will, unless humanity develops into a far more sophisticated society beyond our differences stops trying to kill one another etc. I don't think we will get that far, but look how far we've come, so who knows?
I think you're probably right about the star born thing. Harry didn't work out the way they hoped...but then again he isn't a complete failure either. The Merlin is famously cunning, and Jim has said he often is far less direct than Harry suspects. A career manipulator and politician. Harry might be serving the Merlin's aims despite not actually intending to. The implication is that he meant Harry to destroy the Red Court, despite appearing to try and hamper Harry.
It just occurred to me that both Maggie and Ebenezar before her could both have been Warden's at one time or another. Other candidates are Simon and Justin, and potentially Rashid and someone (again, I would think Maggie). Maggie and Justin just seem like the most likely to have preceded Harry given what they both were like and got up to.
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Sadly for some reason the link you gave me wouldn't work. However a couple of things remain, for some reason the Council is so afraid of a Warden being in charge of the Island that they are willing to let the Island be vulnerable to attack, which it was in Cold Days. Then in Skin Game Harry says because there is now a Warden in charge, all defenses are engaged and the Outsiders couldn't pull that again.
It was my understanding that it was Harry that came up with the name "Demonreach" for the Island. If the Council is guarding the name, one has to wonder what that name is? However we also know that names have power in the Dresdenverse.
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Sadly for some reason the link you gave me wouldn't work. However a couple of things remain, for some reason the Council is so afraid of a Warden being in charge of the Island that they are willing to let the Island be vulnerable to attack, which it was in Cold Days. Then in Skin Game Harry says because there is now a Warden in charge, all defenses are engaged and the Outsiders couldn't pull that again.
It was my understanding that it was Harry that came up with the name "Demonreach" for the Island. If the Council is guarding the name, one has to wonder what that name is? However we also know that names have power in the Dresdenverse.
Damn, yeah it's a bit of an annoying link. Even when it works you have to enter your email to watch it etc. I could type out the section if you like?
Basically he says:
"By the time Harry had got there no one had been there [Demonreach] in a good long while because basically y'know among the people who are in the know on the Council it would be suicide to go try and do that"
"If one of the Senior Council guys got it all the other Senior Council people would be like 'yep, he's the bad guy - definitely corrupted and serving evil' and Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kinda looked at him at went '...I think he was being dumb' 'do you think he was being dumb?' 'Yeah! It looks dumb - it looks like he was just being stupid...but my god we do need the firepower' "
I hope that sort of clears things up. I think they didn't think they either didn't think the Island was in such danger as to require the Warden OR they assumed it was worse to actually allow any wizard to come into such power/too afraid if they took it themselves they would be killed by the others.
Harry did come up with the name but one wonders if that's a name that exists in Demonreach's mind itself or just Harry being Harry. Harry seems to get some sort of magical inspiration in the moment so who knows?
Curiously, Harry names it in Turn Coat LONG before he knew the true purpose of the Island. Yet, as the Gatekeeper says the name is quite apt. One feels that was a bit of the Island's Intellectus merging with Harry. It was a stroke of insight that helped Harry with the name. Another thing, is naming the Island a part of claiming it? In which case each Warden either names it the same thing or they each gave it a name themselves, and so the Island has dozens of names potentially.
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"By the time Harry had got there no one had been there [Demonreach] in a good long while because basically y'know among the people who are in the know on the Council it would be suicide to go try and do that"
"If one of the Senior Council guys got it all the other Senior Council people would be like 'yep, he's the bad guy - definitely corrupted and serving evil' and Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kinda looked at him at went '...I think he was being dumb' 'do you think he was being dumb?' 'Yeah! It looks dumb - it looks like he was just being stupid...but my god we do need the firepower' "
Thank you for writing that out for me, exact quote might be a bit more helpful, not sure. If you pair that with what Eb says in his journal, [also WOJ, he wrote it]
. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
The WOJ underscores the "ignorance" that Eb mentions of the Council and why Eb is so relieved that there is a Warden at last of the Island, even if it is Harry stumbling on to it.
Curiously, Harry names it in Turn Coat LONG before he knew the true purpose of the Island. Yet, as the Gatekeeper says the name is quite apt. One feels that was a bit of the Island's Intellectus merging with Harry. It was a stroke of insight that helped Harry with the name. Another thing, is naming the Island a part of claiming it? In which case each Warden either names it the same thing or they each gave it a name themselves, and so the Island has dozens of names potentially.
In Small Favor, Harry has the feeling that he has walked on the steps of the Island before, though he has never been on the Island. Supposedly this is a wizard thing awaking in him given his age according to Luccio. But what if it isn't?
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Harry also is The Warden, a position most recently held by ... Kemmler.
Hold on there Tex. Where did we learn Kemmler is the former Warden of Demonreach?
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Hold on there Tex. Where did we learn Kemmler is the former Warden of Demonreach?
A WoJ last year.
He wasn't the last-there were two in between.
Kemmler was trying to get back to the island for much of the 19th century
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Thank you for writing that out for me, exact quote might be a bit more helpful, not sure. If you pair that with what Eb says in his journal, [also WOJ, he wrote it]
The WOJ underscores the "ignorance" that Eb mentions of the Council and why Eb is so relieved that there is a Warden at last of the Island, even if it is Harry stumbling on to it.
In Small Favor, Harry has the feeling that he has walked on the steps of the Island before, though he has never been on the Island. Supposedly this is a wizard thing awaking in him given his age according to Luccio. But what if it isn't?
Sorry if that wasn't clear - I was quoting Jim verbatim from the interview.
My reading of that passage in Eb's diary is a bit different to yours. I read it as Ebenezar generalising about how fate or God seems to be on the White Council's side, despite the fact that the White Council keeps making mistakes that make it harder for God/fate to help them (due to their ignorance of the ineffable plan of God/fate). I don't think he is being specific about the White Council being ignorant of Demonreach - otherwise why would the Merlin react so strongly (along with the rest of the Senior Council)?
Yes, I know your theory about Harry and OG Merlin. Certainly possible. But I don't think that answers how Harry knew to name Demonreach. It might explain the mechanism possibly, if for example Harry was actually connecting through time to the original naming of Demonreach (whenever that might be, past or future, involving the original Merlin). But to me that seems more complicated than necessary, and Jim is a reasonably pragmatic writer. I think it might just be Demonreach itself giving Harry some insight into what it is and it's purpose (i.e. just like when he learns the true name of a Walker like Before in Cold Days or Behind in the flashback in Ghost Story, or even Mab in Changes...and then it fades away and he gets to hold onto a few important crumbs). Admittedly, Jim wrote the scene quite differently from those others I mentioned so I could well be wrong. But it's hard to see how Harry might get such an accurate name without knowing the main truths about the Island. Normally when Harry names things he gives them silly names (i.e. Frogs for Fomor, Turtlenecks for Servitors, Nickleheads for Denarians etc). But he didn't this time. I suppose you could argue he does later by calling the avatar spirit of Demonreach "Alfred" like Batman's butler...but that's a bit different to what happened when he first encounters Alfred and claims the Island as his sanctum.
A WoJ last year.
He wasn't the last-there were two in between.
Kemmler was trying to get back to the island for much of the 19th century
In point of fact, the very link Mira and I were discussing.
Barbarra Books Q&A https://www.crowdcast.io/e/jim-butcher (https://www.crowdcast.io/e/jim-butcher) and go to 24:37 and he starts to discuss who the previous Wardens were and how long
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My reading of that passage in Eb's diary is a bit different to yours. I read it as Ebenezar generalising about how fate or God seems to be on the White Council's side, despite the fact that the White Council keeps making mistakes that make it harder for God/fate to help them (due to their ignorance of the ineffable plan of God/fate). I don't think he is being specific about the White Council being ignorant of Demonreach - otherwise why would the Merlin react so strongly (along with the rest of the Senior Council)?
It is just a personal opinion, but I don't think Eb would make a "general" statement opinion in a personal journal. A private journal is meant to be just that, in other words, what his real personal opinion is, not meant for public access. So what does he say?
. . .seems clear that he had no idea of the island's original purpose.
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a
higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything
we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it.
If you look at the first line of that paragraph, Eb is implying and it is true, that Harry stumbled into becoming Warden of the island. Harry no clue that the job even existed or that the prison existed, he was just desperate to come up with a way to defend Morgan from unjust treatment from the Senior Council and it was the only way his power could match theirs.
Then he talks about "fate" and guidance from a "higher power," in spite of some of the moves of the Council to thwart out of ignorance. So just what is the Council thwarting? Returning to the subject of the entry in the journal, the installation of a Warden for the island. Clearly because without a proper Warden as we see later in Cold Days and confirmed by Harry in the first chapter of Skin Game, the island is vulnerable. So you can say it was mere luck that Harry did what he did and became unwittingly Warden at a critical time.. Or fate and guidance that it was Harry who did this and not someone more corruptible for lack of a better word who got the job at this critical time .
Which gets us to the "ignorance" part of that statement. We know the Council isn't stupid, but at the same time they fear the island having a proper Warden so much that they'd rather risk it being successfully attacked than have one. Why? For starters if the Council at this point knew half of the "weapons" Harry has at his disposal they'd freak out more than they already have. But is that fear real? Consider what Mab told Harry in Battle Ground, that the prisoners were now his to control. If he wanted to use Ethniu to attack someone, he could make her do it. Now that would be very bad for the Council. But is she right? Mab can be mistaken, there must be some unwritten fail safes built in to prevent that. Why do I say that? If Kemmler was half as bad as they say he was, why didn't he do that very thing while he was Warden? What stopped him? Did Alfred or something else boot him off the island? In another thread someone said that Jim said he tried to get back to the island, but was prevented.. By the Council or the island itself? That is an important question. So by ignorance, I think Eb meant that the Council fears anyone who might control the prison because they are indeed ignorant of the fail safes that prevent the misuse of the inmates of the island's prison.
Then he says;
The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once.I think he is a damn fool.
Eb knows Harry a lot better than the Merlin does, he also loves him, he is his grandson. Eb doesn't think that Harry will turn into a monster just because he is now Warden of the island. Then he says he trusts Harry, but then adds as an aside that he also trusted Margaret, which is an admission that he sometimes makes mistakes in judgement.
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Harry knew what the name was and knew it below the level of conscious thought. He thought he created it and he did, some 1000 years ago, in a previous incarnation. ID Harry might even have an inkling of what's going on. It's that easy. Butcher spent some time in the latest books creating the idea that Demonreach can keep secrets and is. So figure Demonreach knew and just waited for Harry to figure it out. I don't think that's it, but there is no reason that it couldn't be.
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Harry knew what the name was and knew it below the level of conscious thought. He thought he created it and he did, some 1000 years ago, in a previous incarnation. ID Harry might even have an inkling of what's going on. It's that easy. Butcher spent some time in the latest books creating the idea that Demonreach can keep secrets and is. So figure Demonreach knew and just waited for Harry to figure it out. I don't think that's it, but there is no reason that it couldn't be.
Apparently the island exists on several timelines in several dimensions at the same time as was explained to Harry in Cold Days by Alfred and Bob. Using that as a base it isn't hard to see that Harry did know a thousand years ago what he was going to name the island, but thinking too hard about it will give you a headache and acid indigestion... ???
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Apparently the island exists on several timelines in several dimensions at the same time as was explained to Harry in Cold Days by Alfred and Bob. Using that as a base it isn't hard to see that Harry did know a thousand years ago what he was going to name the island, but thinking too hard about it will give you a headache and acid indigestion... ???
Possibly. It certainly was created at several times at the same time.
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Possibly. It certainly was created at several times at the same time.
I basing this on when Harry and Bob visited the island in Cold Days, Harry learns about the attack. He is told it is coming the next day but then Alfred with Bob's help start in that it may have already happened etc.. So if that is possible, then Harry knowing what that he was going to name the island Demonreach a thousand years ago is totally possible in my opinion.
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It is just a personal opinion, but I don't think Eb would make a "general" statement opinion in a personal journal. A private journal is meant to be just that, in other words, what his real personal opinion is, not meant for public access. So what does he say?
I get what you're saying, but the entire Dresden Files series (not graphic novels so much or side stories of other characters) are meant to be Harry's journals. This much has been implied since Storm Front. Harry makes constant general statements through out the series. The very scene you reference is a massive nod to the fact that the series that we readers are reading are Harry's journals.
And that particular passage that Ebenezar wrote is deduced by Harry as being left for him to read. Ebenezar wanted Harry to a) think about what the Island might actually be b) let Harry know the Council is taking special interest (in a negative way) in him and c) that Harry has Ebenezar's support (despite the hint about Maggie).
If you look at the first line of that paragraph, Eb is implying and it is true, that Harry stumbled into becoming Warden of the island. Harry no clue that the job even existed or that the prison existed, he was just desperate to come up with a way to defend Morgan from unjust treatment from the Senior Council and it was the only way his power could match theirs.
If Harry didn't know the truth about the Island, why would he think claiming it would help match their power (which isn't necessarily true even now that Harry knows what the Island is and how to use it)?
Harry claimed the Island to give him a tactical advantage against a confrontation between him and the Skinwalker, the White Council and the White Court, and whichever Black Council operatives showed up to fight (including the mole in the Council i.e. Peabody). Harry had no idea the amount of tactical advantage the Island gave otherwise he would have won the battle far quicker and easier. He also had no idea the strategic value or the danger of the Island. He might have not rushed into it so quick otherwise.
Then he talks about "fate" and guidance from a "higher power," in spite of some of the moves of the Council to thwart out of ignorance. So just what is the Council thwarting? Returning to the subject of the entry in the journal, the installation of a Warden for the island. Clearly because without a proper Warden as we see later in Cold Days and confirmed by Harry in the first chapter of Skin Game, the island is vulnerable. So you can say it was mere luck that Harry did what he did and became unwittingly Warden at a critical time.. Or fate and guidance that it was Harry who did this and not someone more corruptible for lack of a better word who got the job at this critical time .
I think you're going too specific there, in regards to what the Council are thwarting. I see it more as Ebenezar saying that the Council are getting in their own way and if they just let their real allies like Harry help them they might actually achieve some good, but it's their internal machinations and one-eyed behaviour that make it so much harder on themselves. I say this as Ebenezar refers to this "higher power" arranging "events in [their] favor" rather than pointing out specifically that a higher power seems to want a Wizard in the role in contrary to the supposed views of the White Council. But perhaps we will have to agree to disagree here though. I do believe that the "higher powers" i.e. Heaven do seem to play 4D Chess, and Harry is one such piece. It is hard to really see "luck" in the Dresdenverse considering some of the powers that are involved. It might not be as direct as the Knights, but things do seem to be arranged that should Harry make certain choices things put the good guys in a better position. But for Heaven to actually place someone in a position, they run the risk of abrogating choice, which seems to be directly counter to their mission. It all comes down to what choices people make.
Which gets us to the "ignorance" part of that statement. We know the Council isn't stupid, but at the same time they fear the island having a proper Warden so much that they'd rather risk it being successfully attacked than have one. Why? For starters if the Council at this point knew half of the "weapons" Harry has at his disposal they'd freak out more than they already have. But is that fear real? Consider what Mab told Harry in Battle Ground, that the prisoners were now his to control. If he wanted to use Ethniu to attack someone, he could make her do it. Now that would be very bad for the Council. But is she right? Mab can be mistaken, there must be some unwritten fail safes built in to prevent that. Why do I say that? If Kemmler was half as bad as they say he was, why didn't he do that very thing while he was Warden? What stopped him? Did Alfred or something else boot him off the island? In another thread someone said that Jim said he tried to get back to the island, but was prevented.. By the Council or the island itself? That is an important question. So by ignorance, I think Eb meant that the Council fears anyone who might control the prison because they are indeed ignorant of the fail safes that prevent the misuse of the inmates of the island's prison.
Well, to be honest I think the Senior Council (in particular the Gatekeeper and the Merlin) are quite aware of some of the worst things in that prison. Which explains at least the Merlin's reaction. We don't know what the Gatekeeper said. Mab said Harry could do it...not that it would easy or even well controlled. We don't know the risks. I suspect that the battle of will would be intense, particularly the more powerful the being. The consequences of losing might be lethal, and not just to Dresden. We don't know how far a prisoner could go from the island, or how much control they would have outside the Island. Harry acknowledges that he could compel Ethniu but qualifies it that it would be "tricky and treacherous as hell" and "massively, massively unwise". We don't know what Kemmler did or didn't do while as Warden, although we do know he had powerful spirit allies too. The main thing that might have stopped Kemmler was that he knew the risks of trying to control a dark god or something and didn't think it might work out for him, not to mention that he spent only a little time on the Island as the Council worked very hard to prevent him from returning there after a while. Jim said the Council prevented him, hence why Luccio was in the Wild West in a Fistful of Warlocks (among other things). Do you really think Demonreach would stop a Warden using inmates to their advantage? I don't think Demonreach has a concept of morality. I think it only cares about the security of it's inmates, and putting more monsters in it's cells.
Then he says;
Eb knows Harry a lot better than the Merlin does, he also loves him, he is his grandson. Eb doesn't think that Harry will turn into a monster just because he is now Warden of the island. Then he says he trusts Harry, but then adds as an aside that he also trusted Margaret, which is an admission that he sometimes makes mistakes in judgement.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make here...in any case I think all this shows is the danger in having the wrong person in the role of Warden, and so supports the idea it is better to have no Warden than a bad one.
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The more I look the less there is to see. Butcher has created a super prison to contain deadly Gods and Monsters. Then gives a two year old the keys to a lock he doesn't know exists. It no wonder Rashid choked. Merlin must have been on a bender when he built this place and made Alfred the Warden. One of the most appealing things about the idea of British prisoner being Merlin is that you can imagine he secretly safeguards the prison from idiots. Even though it evidently isn't the case.
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I am not sure what point you are trying to make here...in any case I think all this shows is the danger in having the wrong person in the role of Warden, and so supports the idea it is better to have no Warden than a bad one.
That is called taking the easy way out, and it is dangerous. A better solution would be to be very careful as to whom you put up to be Warden.
I get what you're saying, but the entire Dresden Files series (not graphic novels so much or side stories of other characters) are meant to be Harry's journals. This much has been implied since Storm Front. Harry makes constant general statements through out the series. The very scene you reference is a massive nod to the fact that the series that we readers are reading are Harry's journals.
But the subject in question is Eb's journal, not the overview of Harry's journals. We don't even know if Harry wrote his files contemporaneously as they happened or as an end of career over view of what happened in his life.
And that particular passage that Ebenezar wrote is deduced by Harry as being left for him to read. Ebenezar wanted Harry to a) think about what the Island might actually be b) let Harry know the Council is taking special interest (in a negative way) in him and c) that Harry has Ebenezar's support (despite the hint about Maggie).
It really makes no difference whether Eb meant for Harry to read it or not, it is still Eb's own personal view of the situation. Eb says,
I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate-
Notice he says "I" not "we" nor "the Council thinks." In my opinion it makes it his personal view, not a general view taken up by the Council.
Harry claimed the Island to give him a tactical advantage against a confrontation between him and the Skinwalker, the White Council and the White Court, and whichever Black Council operatives showed up to fight (including the mole in the Council i.e. Peabody). Harry had no idea the amount of tactical advantage the Island gave otherwise he would have won the battle far quicker and easier. He also had no idea the strategic value or the danger of the Island. He might have not rushed into it so quick otherwise.
Admittedly Harry didn't think it through, he surmised and was right that the island if he was successful would let him know where his attackers were coming from. But that is all he got, since he had no clue of all the implications of what he had done, he was continued to fight the battle with a pea shooter when in effect he had a nuclear arsenal at his disposal.. It is a lot different now, that he understands. One more point about the importance of the island having a Warden building on what Morriswalters says in the next post about the island having a two year old in charge [i.e. Alfred]
Here is what Morgan said about an intellectus, which Alfred/Demonreach/Island is; page 279 Turn Coat
"And since beings of intellectus so rarely understand broader ideas of cause and effect, they can be unlikely to realize that a given event might be an indicator of an upcoming assassination attempt." He turned to me. "Though that's a terrible metaphor, Dresden. Most beings like that are immortal. They'd be hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less be threatened by them."
The above is the crux as to why the island needs a Warden, though well equipped to defend itself, including the prison, it has a hard time recognizing when it is threatened.
I think you're going too specific there, in regards to what the Council are thwarting. I see it more as Ebenezar saying that the Council are getting in their own way and if they just let their real allies like Harry help them they might actually achieve some good, but it's their internal machinations and one-eyed behaviour that make it so much harder on themselves. I say this as Ebenezar refers to this "higher power" arranging "events in [their] favor" rather than pointing out specifically that a higher power seems to want a Wizard in the role in contrary to the supposed views of the White Council. But perhaps we will have to agree to disagree here though. I do believe that the "higher powers" i.e. Heaven do seem to play 4D Chess, and Harry is one such piece. It is hard to really see "luck" in the Dresdenverse considering some of the powers that are involved. It might not be as direct as the Knights, but things do seem to be arranged that should Harry make certain choices things put the good guys in a better position. But for Heaven to actually place someone in a position, they run the risk of abrogating choice, which seems to be directly counter to their mission. It all comes down to what choices people make.
Oh I agree that the Higher Powers are playing four dimensional chess, and Harry indeed is one of the pieces. If Harry were a mere pawn, I would agree that that would abrogate choice, but Harry has never been anyone's pawn. Actually in his flexibly, he appears to play more like a Rook, very useful dangerous piece with plenty of choices of movement.
Well, to be honest I think the Senior Council (in particular the Gatekeeper and the Merlin) are quite aware of some of the worst things in that prison. Which explains at least the Merlin's reaction. We don't know what the Gatekeeper said. Mab said Harry could do it...not that it would easy or even well controlled. We don't know the risks. I suspect that the battle of will would be intense, particularly the more powerful the being. The consequences of losing might be lethal, and not just to Dresden. We don't know how far a prisoner could go from the island, or how much control they would have outside the Island. Harry acknowledges that he could compel Ethniu but qualifies it that it would be "tricky and treacherous as hell" and "massively, massively unwise". We don't know what Kemmler did or didn't do while as Warden, although we do know he had powerful spirit allies too. The main thing that might have stopped Kemmler was that he knew the risks of trying to control a dark god or something and didn't think it might work out for him, not to mention that he spent only a little time on the Island as the Council worked very hard to prevent him from returning there after a while. Jim said the Council prevented him, hence why Luccio was in the Wild West in a Fistful of Warlocks (among other things). Do you really think Demonreach would stop a Warden using inmates to their advantage? I don't think Demonreach has a concept of morality. I think it only cares about the security of it's inmates, and putting more monsters in it's cells.
But that is why the mantel of Warden is so dangerous, that leaves open the question, why hasn't a Warden done it before now? Kemmler may have known the risks, but why would that stop such a dark wizard? I don't think the fail safes built in have anything to do with morality, more of practicality. Why establish a maximum security prison, if the Warden could let any one out for his own use and become just another monster?
One more thing, it may be a matter of Fae semantics verses mere mortals, but when Mab said that Harry could use Ethinu to do his bidding, she wasn't exactly right but nor was she totally wrong. The Ley lines that run under the island come from the prison itself, the energy of them is what the monster/inmates are giving off. In Turn Coat while Rashid warns Harry against tapping into their energy, he also says;
page 299
"First," he said, "do not tap into the power of this place's well.You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."
I take that to mean that while Harry isn't ready for it now, in the future he will have the knowledge and the strength to tap into the well without changing himself. Is that what the Council is afraid of? That Harry will tap into the Ley Lines before he is ready and turn into a monster?
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They're probably more worried about Harry striking bargains/making deals with the eldritch horrors inside, the same way he did with other Monsters, like Mab the Queen of Evil Faeries, or Lara the Mind-raping Sex-slaving Vampire, and so on.
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Proverbs 28:1 – “The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion.”
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That is called taking the easy way out, and it is dangerous. A better solution would be to be very careful as to whom you put up to be Warden.
That would presume they can reach a consensus. The entire point is they don't agree on who a good candidate is. I imagine some think that no one is a good candidate. The entire point of the White Council is to limit power. The position of Warden gives too much power to an individual. This goes against their entire ethos. Not only that, it's the dark magic that flows from the place and the demons and dark beings that reside there that make it even more likely the Warden will be corrupted even if they start out as an uncorrupted individual (which considering Harry was well on the way long before he ever became Warden doesn't bode well). Even if the beings in question were not necessarily evil (which is probably almost none of them) the knowledge they possess (not to mention the powers they could grant) further allow a Warden, even a well-intentioned one, to gain too much power. Which again, goes against the mission of the White Council. So it isn't so much a question of a suitable candidate so much as how long any candidate is allowed to operate. Ideally, not long enough to gain too much power. Which I imagine for some of the senior Wizards would be no time at all.
This doesn't mean they are right of course. But it's very easy to see how they have made the decision to get there.
Jim likened it to the White Council badly needing firepower as they are so outgunned right now. Perhaps think of it like picking which country to give a stash of nukes to (to use your nuke analogy). Who would you trust to be steward? Would they become corrupted by the power? How long would it take? What other influences are on them, are they vulnerable? It's one of the many reasons given for nuclear disarmament (in the sense of not letting any more countries build nukes - which of course is to the benefit of whoever has nukes already, particularly the more you have). Most NATO countries would react similarly to the Senior Council if all of a sudden someone starts building/inherits/receives a stockpile of WMDs i.e. they would all gang up on that country and force it to depower before the country got too strong to stop. In Harry's case, it's like if a somewhat tense ally of the US like Japan suddenly got nukes but was also sizing up against one of the USA's main rivals (i.e. China or Russia). The USA would likely be uncomfortable but would also appreciate the position of having a new powerful ally so ready to fight their potential foe (particularly as in Japan's case they would be inside the missile warning systems). That being said, such a thing would likely ratchet up the tension in an already very tense environment...just like Harry being Warden has.
But the subject in question is Eb's journal, not the overview of Harry's journals. We don't even know if Harry wrote his files contemporaneously as they happened or as an end of career over view of what happened in his life.
True enough. But my rebuttal was to your argument that private journals don't have general statements, and as the entire series is full of general statements I think we can make a reasonable assumption that private journals do have general statements in them. Not to mention that the specific bit Harry reads was intended by Ebenezar for Harry to read. So while it might not be for public access, the section we are discussing was meant for more than just Eb to read (in point of fact it was intended for someone else specifically who is discussed in the passage).
It really makes no difference whether Eb meant for Harry to read it or not, it is still Eb's own personal view of the situation. Eb says,
Notice he says "I" not "we" nor "the Council thinks." In my opinion it makes it his personal view, not a general view taken up by the Council.
The specific bit you quote here ("I sometimes can't help but think there is such a thing as fate") is Eb's opinion specifically on how he feels the Council is getting in it's own way. He quite literally says right after the "I" statement "We, in our ignorance, do to thwart it". So it's Ebenezar's ("I") opinion about how the White Council ("we") are subverting themselves.
Admittedly Harry didn't think it through, he surmised and was right that the island if he was successful would let him know where his attackers were coming from. But that is all he got, since he had no clue of all the implications of what he had done, he was continued to fight the battle with a pea shooter when in effect he had a nuclear arsenal at his disposal.. It is a lot different now, that he understands. One more point about the importance of the island having a Warden building on what Morriswalters says in the next post about the island having a two year old in charge [i.e. Alfred]
Exactly right, it is different. Hence why Jim says that the Senior Council's only thought is that Harry must have been really stupid because they don't think he knew what he was doing when he signed up. Which is exactly why they didn't execute him straight away (that, and the fact they really need a weapons stash right now). Except all bets are off since Battle Ground because he clearly knows how to defend his Island far better now AND has shown he can take on major heavy weight hitters. All he needs to show now is that he can compel those beings into giving him power and/or knowledge, and even perhaps potentially commanding them as his personal weapons and he will completely terrify the White Council. It's the equivalent of showing he can build, defend, and deploy nukes.
I think you've misunderstood Morris's point. The two-year old Morris is referring to is Harry, not Alfred. Hence why he points out Rashid choking. So did Eb when he found out (although there are clearly other reasons he thought Harry was crazy i.e. who would want to bring that much stress on themselves?) Morris is incorrect in saying that Alfred was made Warden by the original Merlin. Alfred isn't the Warden. He is the interface, the guards, the monitoring systems, the punishment provider etc. He literally says so himself, and we've seen some of his limits. He doesn't have free will as he isn't mortal. He cannot choose to imprison or release a being. He can only act in accordance with the will of the Warden. That said, he clearly has some scope in how to operate within his limits...and so it probably a very good case study of certain types of immortals. I might have said angels but they seem to be a special case, same with gods.
Here is what Morgan said about an intellectus, which Alfred/Demonreach/Island is; page 279 Turn Coat
The above is the crux as to why the island needs a Warden, though well equipped to defend itself, including the prison, it has a hard time recognizing when it is threatened.
Is that the case with Demonreach though? It knew the Outsiders were attacking it from the water in Cold Days. It also knew that it was being attacked through time as well. It's only "confusion" was in the case of the faeries which Dresden hypothesized as it being connected through nature to them...but Mab seems to indicate that Alfred had the option of defeating them and held back as a curtesy to Mab. Harry didn't tell Demonreach it was being attacked at all in Cold Days, if anything it was the reverse. Alfred is similar to current AI programs in that it's really just a bunch of predetermined responses to certain stimuli, and while capable of "learning" that doesn't mean it makes choices in the way most people seem them. There is a simplicity to it. Another way to look at it might be like asking the AI to capture specific computer viruses in a "vault". It can do as you ask, but it's up to the user (and initially the programmer) to decide what the AI recognizes as a virus in the first place.
Oh I agree that the Higher Powers are playing four dimensional chess, and Harry indeed is one of the pieces. If Harry were a mere pawn, I would agree that that would abrogate choice, but Harry has never been anyone's pawn. Actually in his flexibly, he appears to play more like a Rook, very useful dangerous piece with plenty of choices of movement.
I mean...that's certainly a debated idea even in the series about whether Harry is a weapon wielded by others or not. Two of the Walkers suggested exactly that Harry was in fact a tool of others.
Harry certainly rebels at the idea of being anyone's pawn of course. But in some ways this makes him predictable in certain ways and therefore manipulatable. We've seen Harry realise over and over again that he plays into the plans of others, sometimes without realising it for years. I strongly suspect in some cases there are things he is so unaware of that he is still playing into others' plans for him. I agree he isn't a minor warrior anymore though. Vadderung as much as tells us this in Cold Days.
But that is why the mantel of Warden is so dangerous, that leaves open the question, why hasn't a Warden done it before now? Kemmler may have known the risks, but why would that stop such a dark wizard? I don't think the fail safes built in have anything to do with morality, more of practicality. Why establish a maximum security prison, if the Warden could let any one out for his own use and become just another monster?
As I said earlier, we don't know what the previous Warden's have or haven't done. We can safely assume they didn't blow up the Island or anything absurd but we have no idea what deals they might have struck with inmates, what knowledge they might have gained, what uses they might have put inmates to, what they might have released etc. Kemmler might have been mad but he doesn't seem like he was devoid of any survival instinct i.e. he didn't want to bite off more than he could chew. He wouldn't risk trying to control something that he could work out was beyond him...and he clearly was clever enough to have an accurate assessment of his abilities. By all accounts he was a genius at magic. The other thing was he might have only just figured out what he was going to do, maybe he even had plans that got interrupted. We just don't know.
To answer your question about why build a prison that the could allow any Warden to exploit it's inmates...is a bigger question than we should get into. But in terms of the Dresden Files, we already know the answer from Cold Days:
“But can they get loose?”
“NOT WITHOUT OUTSIDE INTERVENTION,” Demonreach said, “OR YOUR AUTHORIZATION.”
“Meep,” I breathed. “Uh. You mean I could turn these things loose?”
“YOU ARE THE WARDEN.”
I swallowed. “Is it possible for me to communicate with them?”
“YOU ARE THE WARDEN.”
...
I’d just been handed what amounted to a great big ugly weapon of mass destruction and potential havoc. To the various powers of the supernatural world, it wouldn’t matter that I would never use it. All that would matter was that I had it to use. Really, Officer, I know that’s a rocket launcher in my trunk, but I’m only holding it so that someone bad won’t use it. Really. Honest.
The guys in the White Council who didn’t like me were going to turn purple and start frothing at the mouth when they found out. And every foe the White Council ever had would start looking at me like a gift from Heaven—someone with knowledge of the inner workings of the Council, with enormously concentrated personal power, who was almost certain to frighten the Council enough to make them suspect, isolate, and eventually move against him. That guy would be an awesome asset in any struggle against the wizards of the world.
And boy, wouldn’t the White Council know it?
Like I didn’t have enough recruiters aiming for me already.
And hey, the very best part? I didn’t actually have a real, usable superweapon. I just had the key to a great big box full of pain and trouble for a whole lot of people.
No wonder my grandfather had looked stunned when he’d seen what I had done with Demonreach. Or maybe less “stunned” than “horrified.”
Merlin built the prison alongside the White Council. It's implied (and occasionally discussed) that he basically was trying to get rid of the chaos in the world caused by wizards with unlimited power, faux-demigods really. He established a code of principles to guide wizards, an organization to train and unite and police wizards, and rather successfully managed to order the chaos of the old world. Does that mean everything is good? Of course not. But undoubtedly it was worse beforehand. Merlin clearly had his faults and he likely hoped that what he did would be enough. Doesn't mean it always was.
One more thing, it may be a matter of Fae semantics verses mere mortals, but when Mab said that Harry could use Ethinu to do his bidding, she wasn't exactly right but nor was she totally wrong. The Ley lines that run under the island come from the prison itself, the energy of them is what the monster/inmates are giving off. In Turn Coat while Rashid warns Harry against tapping into their energy, he also says;
page 299
I take that to mean that while Harry isn't ready for it now, in the future he will have the knowledge and the strength to tap into the well without changing himself. Is that what the Council is afraid of? That Harry will tap into the Ley Lines before he is ready and turn into a monster?
Mab wasn't totally wrong, but what she said is the equivalent of saying Harry could turn into a god. He could. Doesn't mean he shoudl or that it would turn out well.
As for the Ley Lines...I think that's only one small part of what they are afraid of. Rashid warned Harry because he doesn't want black magic to taint Harry. But it wasn't like Rashid was going to tell him to not release monsters etc. because that would reveal secrets that Harry wasn't ready for yet. Realistically, many on the Council have thought of Harry as a monster since day dot - some with good reason (which may or may not be to do with star born things, not to mention Du Morne). Mostly they are worried about Harry becoming a powerful monster, one that could take them on like Kemmler did. And they should be worried.
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Mea culpa on calling Alfred the Warden.
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Mea culpa on calling Alfred the Warden.
Well, we all make mistakes. ::)
That would presume they can reach a consensus. The entire point is they don't agree on who a good candidate is. I imagine some think that no one is a good candidate. The entire point of the White Council is to limit power. The position of Warden gives too much power to an individual.
Doesn't the fact that they allow one of their members to hold the Blackstaff and be the Council's assassin contradict that? Basically they are trusting Eb's character to limit the real damage he can do with that staff. In Battleground Eb has shown himself to be a bit shaky emotionally, there is no guarantee that he won't go rouge. The Merlin himself has shown some inclination towards abuse of power for political reasons.
True enough. But my rebuttal was to your argument that private journals don't have general statements, and as the entire series is full of general statements I think we can make a reasonable assumption that private journals do have general statements in them. Not to mention that the specific bit Harry reads was intended by Ebenezar for Harry to read. So while it might not be for public access, the section we are discussing was meant for more than just Eb to read (in point of fact it was intended for someone else specifically who is discussed in the passage).
The fact that Eb meant for Harry to read it, or that is Harry's assumption he was meant to read it, since the book just happened to be open, doesn't make what Eb wrote a general statement.
The specific bit you quote here ("I sometimes can't help but think there is such a thing as fate") is Eb's opinion specifically on how he feels the Council is getting in it's own way. He quite literally says right after the "I" statement "We, in our ignorance, do to thwart it". So it's Ebenezar's ("I") opinion about how the White Council ("we") are subverting themselves.
Both can be true at the same time. Eb is giving a personal opinion that the Council is getting in it's own way by it's ignorance, and as a member of the Council, he includes himself. We see it everyday in Congress, a member can say in his or her personal opinion that a proposal is right or wrong, but at the same time not excluding himself or herself from the general proposal put forth.
Exactly right, it is different. Hence why Jim says that the Senior Council's only thought is that Harry must have been really stupid because they don't think he knew what he was doing when he signed up. Which is exactly why they didn't execute him straight away (that, and the fact they really need a weapons stash right now). Except all bets are off since Battle Ground because he clearly knows how to defend his Island far better now AND has shown he can take on major heavy weight hitters. All he needs to show now is that he can compel those beings into giving him power and/or knowledge, and even perhaps potentially commanding them as his personal weapons and he will completely terrify the White Council. It's the equivalent of showing he can build, defend, and deploy nukes.
As I said in another post, rereading what Rashid told him in Turn Coat, I don't think it is about commanding any of the inmates to do his bidding, it is about tapping the power from the Leylines that emirate from the island and it's inmates. The scary bit is Rashid left that open, he said that Harry wasn't ready yet to attempt such a thing.
I think you've misunderstood Morris's point. The two-year old Morris is referring to is Harry, not Alfred. Hence why he points out Rashid choking. So did Eb when he found out (although there are clearly other reasons he thought Harry was crazy i.e. who would want to bring that much stress on themselves?) Morris is incorrect in saying that Alfred was made Warden by the original Merlin. Alfred isn't the Warden. He is the interface, the guards, the monitoring systems, the punishment provider etc. He literally says so himself, and we've seen some of his limits. He doesn't have free will as he isn't mortal. He cannot choose to imprison or release a being. He can only act in accordance with the will of the Warden. That said, he clearly has some scope in how to operate within his limits...and so it probably a very good case study of certain types of immortals. I might have said angels but they seem to be a special case, same with gods.
Morriswalter has to be the one to clear that up. Yes, one could argue that Harry is like a two year as you say. However if you read what Morgan says about beings of intellectus, you will understand better why the island needs a Warden. First of all Alfred is the island, so you can say the island has it... Here are a few things Morgan says about beings with intellectus; Turn Coat page 278
Morgan spoke. "A being with intellectus does not understand, for example, how to derive a complex calculus equation--because it doesn't need to process. If you showed him a problem and an equation, he would simply understand it and skip straight to the answer without need to think through the logical stages of solving the problem."
Alfred knows the island needs a Warden, skips to the end when Harry comes along and does the genius loci, makes him Warden. Alfred isn't thinking through whether or not Harry would be a good one or a bad one.. Problem, island needs a Warden, skip to the end, Harry.
Molly asks Morgan if being an intellectus is omniscient? Morgans tells her they are not the same thing. An intellectus has to focus in order the know something. Omniscient knows everything at all times. Then on page 279 he gets to the crux of why the island needs a Warden and why the island to use Morriswalters example is like a two year old being in charge without one.
"Intellectuswouldn't save you from an assassin's bullet if you didn't know someone wanted to kill you in the first place," I said. "To know it is coming, you'd first need to consider the question of whether or not an assassin might be lurking in a dark doorway or on top of a bell tower.
In other words the island without a proper Warden cannot properly defend itself because it cannot imagine what to look for to prevent it.
Morgan nods in agreement and adds a metaphor of his own. Again page 279
Morgan grunted agreement. "And since beings of intellectus so rarely understand broader ideas of cause and effect, they can be unlikely to realize that a given event might be an indicator of an upcoming assassination attempt." "Though that's a terrible metaphor, Dresden.
Now comes the part that really fits the example that Alfred/the island is really like a two year old;
Most beings like that are immortal. They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."
Because he is immortal he has a hard time understanding that the island is being threatened. Like a two year old doesn't understand that a hot stove will burn, he needs an adult to explain it.
Is that the case with Demonreach though? It knew the Outsiders were attacking it from the water in Cold Days. It also knew that it was being attacked through time as well. It's only "confusion" was in the case of the faeries which Dresden hypothesized as it being connected through nature to them...but Mab seems to indicate that Alfred had the option of defeating them and held back as a curtesy to Mab. Harry didn't tell Demonreach it was being attacked at all in Cold Days, if anything it was the reverse. Alfred is similar to current AI programs in that it's really just a bunch of predetermined responses to certain stimuli, and while capable of "learning" that doesn't mean it makes choices in the way most people seem them. There is a simplicity to it. Another way to look at it might be like asking the AI to capture specific computer viruses in a "vault". It can do as you ask, but it's up to the user (and initially the programmer) to decide what the AI recognizes as a virus in the first place.
Yes, it does apply to the island... Going back to the assassin metaphor... As Morgan says;
Most beings like that are immortal. They are hard-pressed to notice bullets, much less feel threatened by them."
In other words, without a Warden, the island might know it's about to be attacked, but would have a hard time imagining how it would be attacked or that it is vulnerable to being attacked.
And yes, with a fully engaged Warden after Harry's been there a year, he says in Skin Game. Page 6
I'd spent the last year acquainting myself with the island's secrets, with the defenses that I hadn't even known existed---defenses that could be activated only by the Warden. If the Walker tried that play again, I could shut him down single-handed. Even Mab as powerful as she was, would be well-advised to be cautious if she decided to start trouble on Demonreach soil. Which is why she was standing on the dock
Mab could prevent communication going to and from Harry, she could prevent him leaving or going, but without his leave, she could not step on the island now that he was fully installed as it's Warden.
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@Mira
Yuillegan nailed it precisely. Making Harry Warden without Harry knowing what it implies borders on insanity. It would be like handing a toddler a loaded gun with no safety. If Butcher expects me to buy into that he needs to bring something to the table to explain why you would allow that.
On Mab and the danger the island represents to her. Given the control that Mab has over Harry as her Knight she could walk him off the pier and make him drown himself. She could alter his memory and make him forget where the island is. Harry would only be a danger to her if she were stupid.
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@Mira
Yuillegan nailed it precisely. Making Harry Warden without Harry knowing what it implies borders on insanity. It would be like handing a toddler a loaded gun with no safety. If Butcher expects me to buy into that he needs to bring something to the table to explain why you would allow that.
On Mab and the danger the island represents to her. Given the control that Mab has over Harry as her Knight she could walk him off the pier and make him drown himself. She could alter his memory and make him forget where the island is. Harry would only be a danger to her if she were stupid.
Consider though, Harry didn't make himself Warden, Alfred did.. So who exactly is using the judgement of a two year old? The guy who punched him in the nose not knowing what he was doing? Or the guy who made him his Warden because he was able to do it?
Mab might be able to do those things if Harry was off the island, but not while he is on it. As he says, when she collected him she stayed on the dock until he gave her his permission to step on to the island. Remember the last bit of Cold Days, and this was before Harry knew of the extent of his power, when Mab threatened him? He called Alfred forward and told him to grab Mab is she did anything of that kind, she turned pale.. Also lets not forget she also asked Harry's permission to bury Maeve and Ivy on the island.. Unless it was totally to her advantage to leave the island Wardenless, she isn't going to mess with Harry in the way you suggest.
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Harry is the two year old in the analogy. The question was why make him Warden? You may be able accept that a prison guard at the most dangerous prison in the Universe took on Harry as the Warden without references. I'm having some trouble swallowing it. Seems
Consider though, Harry didn't make himself Warden, Alfred did.. So who exactly is using the judgement of a two year old? The guy who punched him in the nose not knowing what he was doing? Or the guy who made him his Warden because he was able to do it?
Mab might be able to do those things if Harry was off the island, but not while he is on it. As he says, when she collected him she stayed on the dock until he gave her his permission to step on to the island. Remember the last bit of Cold Days, and this was before Harry knew of the extent of his power, when Mab threatened him? He called Alfred forward and told him to grab Mab is she did anything of that kind, she turned pale.. Also lets not forget she also asked Harry's permission to bury Maeve and Ivy on the island.. Unless it was totally to her advantage to leave the island Wardenless, she isn't going to mess with Harry in the way you suggest.
rather above his pay grade. The more I examine it, the less I like it.
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Harry is the two year old in the analogy. The question was why make him Warden? You may be able accept that a prison guard at the most dangerous prison in the Universe took on Harry as the Warden without references. I'm having some trouble swallowing it. Seems
I guess that is a question for Jim isn't it? For starters while one can question Harry's judgement in doing the genus loki in the first place. I apologize for the spelling of that, haven't time to look it up this morning. Harry didn't ask for the job, he didn't kick and scream to get it, he didn't even know the job existed. I guess it is also a question for the island, why did it make Harry it's Warden? But here are a couple of points about that
1] If the Council had it's act together in the first place and the island had a proper Warden, Harry wouldn't have been able to do the thing he did to unwittingly become one.
2] The only thing the island requires apparently is someone with enough talent and strength to do it. This actually might be the way Kemmler became Warden in the first place. He wasn't appointed, but he knew of the island and what to do to become it's Warden..
3] Though the island has intellectus, it still needs a parent/Warden, because like all two year olds, the island has no judgement as far as knowing when it is in real danger.
One final thought about this is, someone on the Council must know all of this, yet they seem to think it a secret it won't happen.. Oh goodness, who is acting like a two year old now? So the island is left vulnerable, to attack, to the wrong person or entity becoming it's Warden, and lastly and more importantly, without a Warden, it has no way to jail those who really needs locking up..
So again, I ask you, who is the two year old?
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There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out. They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.
That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden. Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem. To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.
The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.
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There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out. They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.
That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden. Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem. To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.
The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.
That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.
The job did save his life
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That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.
The job did save his life
Yes, and I also got the sense that Alfred bargained with Mab as well, for Harry to keep the job. Rereading the pages of Ghost Story when Harry first wakes up, Harry is her Knight, but apparently Alfred/the island like Uriel has something to say about the direction of Harry's life. I don't think on that basis that Mab will be trying to sabotage Harry on that front.
There was a prison called Alcatraz. What the people who put the prison in the bay wanted to do was keep the prisoners in and everybody else out. They did not have the Warden selected by a trial of strength between the chief screw and and random people from the mainland.
For starters, Alcatraz is a mortal prison, Alcatraz did have a warden, and yes, the warden did have to meet certain qualifications to be appointed to the job. We don't know what the island wants in it's Warden, but as Morgan said, those with intellectus are immortal,because of that, there are dangers they cannot conceive of. So while the qualification of strength and talent are implanted on it, corruption, stupidity, and immaturity,might not be something it sees as a problem.
That is effectively how Harry got to be Warden. Not through wisdom or intelligence or knowledge of what he was doing. But by having a pissing contest with an intelligent rock to solve an unrelated problem. To say this is idiotic is to understate just how dumb the idea is in isolation.
That is a flaw with the island, has nothing to do with Harry. He didn't even know about the prison, that the island needed a Warden, and once the island selected him, no one on the Senior Council or the Council at large prevented him from getting it. Mab and Uriel did nothing while Harry was in a coma on the island to prevent him from becoming the island's custodian. I am not sure Harry can even quit if he wanted to. In short, Harry wasn't acting like a two year old having a tantrum demanding the Warden job. The island decided he was up for it, and Harry accepted it like a man and is doing the best that he can. Whether that is good enough remains to be seen.
The island has a fail safe that would destroy Chicago if activated. It holds Dark Gods and monsters. And then Butcher tries to convince me that Harry gets to be Warden by chance? If you can eat that apple then I envy you.
That is another question for Jim.. However since Harry has been Warden he managed, with help to prevent an Outsider invasion of the island and the bomb going off.. He also managed to jail a Titian who was hell bent on destroying Chicago and beyond.. He managed to figure out that Justine was infected with an Outsider, again saving the island, though that was close. I'd say so far he has done pretty well.. Now does that mean he won't make mistakes, costly ones,in the future? No, it doesn't, but that can be said of anybody in spite of qualifications or lack there of.
Oh and one last point when trying to compare Harry to a two year old. In Skin Game he also passed Hades' test to acquire those Artifacts.. Here is what Hades said; page 347 Skin Game
"To prevent anyone without skill or commitment to use them well from having them," he said. "It is not my task to keep them from all of mortal kind---only from the incompetents."
Apparently that goes for becoming Warden of the island as well, Harry was competent enough to call it up and show his strength and commitment, and that is all that it required.
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That is one interpretation. But maybe the island just used his intellectus to sense if Harry was warden material and the rest was just for show, to make it not too easy.
The job did save his life
I can't say what Butcher is thinking. I'm willing to accept that AI evaluated Harry and found him to be a worthy Warden. But then again according to Butcher he gave Kemmler the position.
@Mira
I never said Harry was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. And I've repeated it three times. Two year olds may throw tantrums, but they also pick up loaded guns and kill themselves or others. Because otherwise rational adults leave guns where two year olds can get at them. I can't make it any clearer then that.
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I can't say what Butcher is thinking. I'm willing to accept that AI evaluated Harry and found him to be a worthy Warden. But then again according to Butcher he gave Kemmler the position.
Maybe Kemmler was an effective warden. White council rules ae not necessarily relevant here.
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I never said Harry was a 2 year old throwing a tantrum. And I've repeated it three times. Two year olds may throw tantrums, but they also pick up loaded guns and kill themselves or others. Because otherwise rational adults leave guns where two year olds can get at them. I can't make it any clearer then that.
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I never said that you did, if you think that, I am sorry you got that impression, because that wasn't my intent. I was merely illustrating what two year olds can be like in their worst light, that Harry didn't act like that to get the job that he didn't know he was getting. If you want to say Harry in charge is like putting a two year old in charge. Okay, using your analogy, I think it is more like leaving a two year old home alone. The two year old didn't ask to be left behind, but since it was done, he has to do the best that he can as responsibly as a two year old can. Can you offer any examples where Harry has acted like a two year old since he became Warden of the island?
So far, Harry hasn't acted like a two year old as far as being Warden of Demonreach, he has acted rather responsibly, like an adult. The two year old is the intellectus or Alfred, who like most two year olds, doesn't understand when he is in real danger, thus he needs an adult or Warden to supervise. As Harry says in Skin Game, there are defense systems on the island that only the Warden can implement, in other words, the island needs adult supervision.
Maybe Kemmler was an effective warden. White council rules ae not necessarily relevant here.
Could be, more to the point I think is the White Council may have no real say in the matter. Which might be the real answer, as long as whoever passes the island's test for a Warden, he or she gets to be it, end of story. The island isn't testing character or maturity, it merely tests if the potential Warden is strong enough and smart enough for the job that needs to be done. Again going back to what Morgan said about an intellectus, because they are immortal there are some dangers they just do not comprehend. Hence Kemmler certainly passes the test as far as talent and intelligence goes to be Warden, being corrupt and evil is another matter, but the island might not see those last two as a threat to it.
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My 2 cents- Demonreach only cares if its Warden is capable- magical chops and has the will- to bind dark gods.
Demonreach wants to be used- this was clear from when they interred Thomas.
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Alfred knows the island needs a Warden, ... Harry comes along and does the genius loci, makes him Warden. Alfred isn't thinking through whether or not Harry would be a good one or a bad one...
Problem, island needs a Warden, skip to the end, Harry.
...
on page 279 he gets to the crux of why the island needs a Warden and why the island to use Morriswalters example is like a two year old being in charge without one.
In other words the island without a proper Warden cannot properly defend itself because it cannot imagine what to look for to prevent it.
Because he is immortal he has a hard time understanding that the island is being threatened. Like a two year old doesn't understand that a hot stove will burn, he needs an adult to explain it.
...
In other words, without a Warden, the island might know it's about to be attacked, but would have a hard time imagining how it would be attacked or that it is vulnerable to being attacked.
This, I think.
We have seen repeatedly that many of the older beings see the signs of apocalyptic troubles coming. They are maneuvering and repositioning and making power-plays.
We know Alfred has problems seeing beyond the island, but I suspect the island itself may have some "detect the oncoming apocalypse" measures built in (apocalypses (had to think for a moment to pluralize that'un!) are probably one of the things Merlin explicitly planned-for, as likely to threaten the security of the island).
At that point, having been Warden-less for so long, the island *needs* to fill the role. Nevermind choosing the "best" candidate... there is exactly one resume in the applicant-pile; if he passes the minimum-qualifications test, even a 2-year-old gets the job at this juncture in time.
[ BTW -- can someone point me to the WoJ about Kemmler having been warden? I just had an idea... I want to see if it fits with what Jim said... ]
[ Also -- do we actually know that "the White Council" (as an organization) actually knows about the island as a prison? Ley-lines they surely know, and probably the Genus-Loci spirit; but the "prison" aspect, and the automatic "Warden" role that comes with a sanctum-binding? Maybe only a subset of them know; one of the other things Jim has said is that the White Council is made up of a bunch of secrecy-loving old wizards, and all of them are keeping secrets from one another. So maybe just LTW knows the island houses a prison; but most of the Council just think of it as a huge Leyline confluence ...? I mean, seriously: if you are *THE* Warden... aren't you automatically the Senior Warden? Maybe that's how it once was, but they've forgotten... ]
[ Also pt.III -- Did Harry ever accept the tutoring offered by LTW, or by River Shoulders? Almost certainly, RS's people know more about the island than all the White Council combined ... ]
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I'm beginning to hate two year olds.
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I'm beginning to hate two year olds.
They can be difficult... ::)
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They can be difficult... ::)
Wait until they get three….
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Wait until they get three….
Or seven, for some reason my kids were really hard to deal with at that age.
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My theory is that Fortier was the Warden before Harry, but merely a placeholder to prevent anyone else from becoming Warden, like Kemmler, he had no interest in the island and only the Senior Council knew of his assuming the role, everyone else who might know about Demonreach like Eb, or Morgan weren’t told so they thought it was vacant, to protect from Kemmler etc.
You don’t leave the power to unleash the end of the world unguarded, you don’t know if some idiot or dark wizard is going to wander into it. Fortier was killed to free up the Wardenship, but Harry got their first (realising the worst fears of the Senior Council). This suggests that a current or former member of the Senior Council plotted the death of Fortier for this purpose as part of the Black Council. Remember Fortier was a nay vote against Harry and a supporter of the Merlin, whose nonintervention policy played directly into the Black Council’s game with the Red Court. His death exposed the mind control of Luccio and the wider Council by Peabody, so it had to be a significant gain to offset the political loss of Eb becoming Senior Council and the risk of exposure. Demonreach would be it.
The Cold Days Plan was a back up, to get over the existence of a Warden and exposed Nemesis in the Winter Court and left Winter stronger.
This is why Jim won’t name the Warden before Harry, and presumably the Warden before who was killed in 1961 by Kemmler to free up the Wardenship again, forcing the entire White Council to hunt him down. That would mean Fortier was Warden for nearly five decades in absentia.
This suggests that we are going to find out more about the last killing of Kemmler, Justin acquiring Bob, and the Demonreach succession.
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I don't like it but it works on some level. It's way better then a super max setting in the middle of Lake Michigan with no Warden.
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Sometimes the things Jim won’t talk about is more significant than what he will talk about. He will talk about the Warden but two, but not Harry’s immediate predecessor.
If Fortier was killed to free up the Wardenship then that changes the perspective of Turn Coat. The plot wasn’t to destabilise the Senior Council at all, it was to access Demonreach. Harry found the who of it, but didn’t have enough information to point to the why of it. The Warden before Fortier is likely a major revelation in a future book, which will recast how we look at several books. Unless it was Kemmler again, coming back to life and regaining the Wardenship with a fresh Sanctum invocation when reaching the island next and finding it vacant. The Senior Council weren’t going to be caught twice like that.
If death frees up the Wardenship killing Kemmler the first time in the 1890’s would have done that. Returning to life may not have guaranteed he regained the Wardenship. His next death occurred near the end of WW2, with his final (so far) death being in 1961. That’s four further deaths between the end of WW2 and 1961. Fortier might have taken on the Wardenship in 1945 rather than 1961, once they realised Kemmler wasn’t staying dead.
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The only problem I have with your theory is, if Fortier was affected by Peabody's ink like most of the Council, what need was there to kill him? Peabody could simply have manipulated him like he did Luccio to do the Black Council's bidding as far as the island goes. Another unanswered question is, do the Warden activated defenses go down upon the death of it's Warden? I asked that because in Cold Days the island was vulnerable because as we learn in Skin Game some of it's defenses can only be Warden activated, which they weren't in Cold Days..
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Older wizards were more resistant, Luccio was vulnerable having been swapped into a much younger body. They didn’t have the time to wait another decade or so for the ink to fully work which may have been the original plan.
By this time Harry had already visited the island for the first time in Small Favour. The Archive was there, all it took was her mentioning this to the Wardens as casual gossip for this to get into the reports filed by everyone (except Harry) which ended up on Peabody ‘s desk, freaking him out worse than if Harry had filed a report.
Harry had already ruined the Darkhallow (where Peabody was referenced, he likely suggested the Erl King as a victim) so rather than wait a decade or more with Harry blundering about in the vicinity Peabody had Fortier killed to free the island Wardenship, only as a consequence for Harry to gain the Wardenship by accident first.
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Older wizards were more resistant, Luccio was vulnerable having been swapped into a much younger body. They didn’t have the time to wait another decade or so for the ink to fully work which may have been the original plan.
I don't think it was ever said how if Fortier was considered an older wizard or not. They should have known about Harry then because it was during Turn Coat that he became Warden. It was mentioned in Eb's journal in Turn Coat, the Merlin realized the implications and wanted Harry put under surveillance, it was almost two years later that the Outsiders with the help of Maeve tried their invasion of the island. You'd think that the Merlin instead of putting a watch on Harry, would have explained what he was in for and the importance of the job, or Eb would have when he escorted Harry back to Chicago after he recovered from his wounds. None of that happened.
By this time Harry had already visited the island for the first time in Small Favour. The Archive was there, all it took was her mentioning this to the Wardens as casual gossip for this to get into the reports filed by everyone (except Harry) which ended up on Peabody ‘s desk, freaking him out worse than if Harry had filed a report.
That could have happened, but at the same time Ivy wasn't fully engaged as host, still a little girl. Nothing was written down, we don't even know how much about the island is on paper. The Archive only knows for sure what is written down. Even in his journal, Eb merely hints of meaning of what Harry did and it was dangerous, but nothing about the Warden job. There could be a very good reason for that.
Harry had already ruined the Darkhallow (where Peabody was referenced, he likely suggested the Erl King as a victim) so rather than wait a decade or more with Harry blundering about in the vicinity Peabody had Fortier killed to free the island Wardenship, only as a consequence for Harry to gain the Wardenship by accident first.
That is presuming that Peabody knew before hand that Morgan would show up as he was pushing Luccio to murder Fortier, then that Morgan would willingly take the blame for the murder to protect Luccio, then run to Harry to figure it all out. Further then assume that Harry would take Morgan to the island, and further assumed that Harry would do the genis thing for tactical advantage against the Senior Council. Those are a lot of huge assumptions.. Since Peabody went there himself though one of the more dangerous Ways in secret, speaks to him perhaps trying to gain the Wardenship himself, but he was too late, Harry beat him unwittingly to the punch.
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Fortier was on the Senior Council, generally they put the ‘Senior’ In Senior Council.
Peabody had wonderful access to the documents of the White Council, his only blind spot was Harry, who didn’t do his paperwork. He likely had access to everything, including the Merlin’s personal intelligence (I believe he was paying Rudy, because everyone competent in Chicago PD had been already bought by Marcone).
Peabody was always a bit of a weakling for the Black Council unless he was setting himself up to be Warden.
Ivy is a Member of the Accords, a mediator called upon by the White Council, so yes they would know Harry had been on the island.
Harry blundered into the Wardenship, it was unforseeable that the murder would result in it, but it did happen, then Harry tells the Senior Council to meet him on the island, Peabody had to wait until he wouldn’t be missed and the Senior Council had left, but must have been frantic.
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The reason Lafortier was killed was to open up a seat on the Senior Council. That is stated explicitly in the text. Could he have been an absentee Warden? Sure. But why? That's almost as bad a not having a Warden at all. To communicate with Alfred Harry has to go to the island. Did LaFortier have a yacht in the harbor at Chicago? For that matter where did Kemmler park his canoe?
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The reason Lafortier was killed was to open up a seat on the Senior Council. That is stated explicitly in the text. Could he have been an absentee Warden? Sure. But why? That's almost as bad a not having a Warden at all. To communicate with Alfred Harry has to go to the island. Did LaFortier have a yacht in the harbor at Chicago? For that matter where did Kemmler park his canoe?
Both could possibly known a Way, Kemmler especially to the island. However I agree with you on the rest.
Fortier was on the Senior Council, generally they put the ‘Senior’ In Senior Council.
Still there is a reason why Rashid said they'd have to go back and revisit all decisions made in the last few years because all of their judgements were questionable. The ink may not have damaged their minds as severely as it did in the case of Luccio, but thinking can be affected and influenced without actually doing physical damage.
Peabody had wonderful access to the documents of the White Council, his only blind spot was Harry, who didn’t do his paperwork. He likely had access to everything, including the Merlin’s personal intelligence (I believe he was paying Rudy, because everyone competent in Chicago PD had been already bought by Marcone).
That still doesn't mean that he actually knew everything.
Ivy is a Member of the Accords, a mediator called upon by the White Council, so yes they would know Harry had been on the island.
Yes, but that was in Small Favor, Harry didn't become Warden till he stumbled upon it in Turn Coat. So even if they knew, it didn't mean anything that they knew...
Harry blundered into the Wardenship, it was unforseeable that the murder would result in it, but it did happen, then Harry tells the Senior Council to meet him on the island, Peabody had to wait until he wouldn’t be missed and the Senior Council had left, but must have been frantic.
Well, if Peabody already knew that Harry had blundered into Wardenship, it was too late for him to do anything anyway. Also he would have known that Morgan was going to be the sacrifice lamb in any case, what did him in was the fact that Harry figured out that he was manipulating other wizards with his ink.
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The reason Lafortier was killed was to open up a seat on the Senior Council. That is stated explicitly in the text. Could he have been an absentee Warden? Sure. But why? That's almost as bad a not having a Warden at all. To communicate with Alfred Harry has to go to the island. Did LaFortier have a yacht in the harbor at Chicago? For that matter where did Kemmler park his canoe?
For Christos? He seems only to have been a stalking horse, we have seen nothing to suggest that he was more than an politically ambitious individual fed up with certain aspects of Senior Council politics. He wasn’t Black Council he wouldn’t have been part of the White Council delegation in Peace Talks otherwise. Remember everyone (except Harry) was suggestible at this point. The Black Council gained nothing by elevating Christos, so why murder Fortier? If the murder the Warden and suggest that it was internal politics it throws off the pursuit.
The point is It was known in the White Council from Small Favour Harry was interested in the island, enough to panic.
There is a way onto the island Rashid can use it, as he pleases and Maeve was able to use it once to bring Peabody and the spiders. This suggests that the way comes out deep in Winter, most likely Arctis Tor, and I think we have already seen where, a room where Mab keeps beings prisoner in blocks of crystal ice, where they can reflect upon their misdeeds. Sounds familiar?
The attack on Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty may have been an attempt on Demonreach by Nemesis and the Black Council. Just because you know where something is via the Ways does not map onto its location in the real world, and Demonreach hides its location. A way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach may long have been known and used in the past, but subsequently guarded by Mab. That attempt failed because Fortier was Warden and doubtless the Alfred was set up to guard it in his absence.
This mean’t identifying the Warden, killing him and taking up the Wardenship themselves. This attack would have been set up in Grave Peril giving Lea the Athame, and follows on from the Nemesis strategy of dual attack on the Outer Gates and Demonreach. If Cowl had been successful in Dead Beat he would have taken down the well protected White Council headquarters, in the process killing the then unidentified Warden.
Maeve and the Black Council may have only discovered its real world location in Turn Coat, if it is something passed down orally amongst the Senior Council and Blackstaff and the Warden (the Archive didn’t know) and then not to all members of the Senior Council. Spooky island may not have equated with Supernatural Supermax for most of the Senior Council.
This allowed for a direct attack in Cold Days, and Nemesis trying to access again by deceit in Battleground. Thrice denied. Four if you count Dead Beat.
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I never said it couldn't be true. I asked why it might be.
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The attack on Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty may have been an attempt on Demonreach by Nemesis and the Black Council. Just because you know where something is via the Ways does not map onto its location in the real world, and Demonreach hides its location. A way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach may long have been known and used in the past, but subsequently guarded by Mab. That attempt failed because Fortier was Warden and doubtless the Alfred was set up to guard it in his absence.
The problem with that theory is Arctis Tor is in the Nevernever, while Demonreach is not, I also doubt whoever attacked Arctis Tor would confuse the two. While the island isn't on the map it can be found if you know where to look. The Denarians had no problem finding it and taking Ivy and Marcone there.
For Christos? He seems only to have been a stalking horse, we have seen nothing to suggest that he was more than an politically ambitious individual fed up with certain aspects of Senior Council politics. He wasn’t Black Council he wouldn’t have been part of the White Council delegation in Peace Talks otherwise. Remember everyone (except Harry) was suggestible at this point. The Black Council gained nothing by elevating Christos, so why murder Fortier? If the murder the Warden and suggest that it was internal politics it throws off the pursuit.
But no one has clue who is on the Black Council, except it is a good bet that Peabody was, but he is dead. Until he was found out by Harry he played the efficient loyal Council secretary for years. So
Christos could very well be on the Black Council quietly undermining the White Council. It has also been suggested that it could be a figment of Harry's imagination.. Not that he is wrong, but it may not be what he thinks.
The point is It was known in the White Council from Small Favour Harry was interested in the island, enough to panic.
Harry wasn't interested in the island in Small Favor, he went there, true, but only because Nic wanted him to go there with the Sword of Faith to trade for Ivy and Marcone.
There is a way onto the island Rashid can use it, as he pleases and Maeve was able to use it once to bring Peabody and the spiders. This suggests that the way comes out deep in Winter, most likely Arctis Tor, and I think we have already seen where, a room where Mab keeps beings prisoner in blocks of crystal ice, where they can reflect upon their misdeeds. Sounds familiar?
There really isn't any evidence for that.. Yes, Rashid used a Way to get to the island. Peabody did as well along with the spiders, no evidence that it was the same Way that Rashid used. Or if it was Rashid was better at controlling the spiders than Peabody because it was just him waiting for Harry on the dock. I don't think that Maeve needs to use a Way to get anywhere anymore than Mab does.
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I don't believe that LaFortiere was the Warden at the time of his murder unless it was a secret from everyone on the Senior Council who knows what Demonreach is. Otherwise their response makes no sense.
Think about it. The keeper of the keys to the prison of the the collective monsters and horrors of the planet's history is murdered and no one is sent to check on the prison. If someone told me the keys to the Gates of Hell have been stolen, I'd want to watch the path to them, even if from a distance.
Harry may not have had the Council's full trust, but he is the warden they put in charge on North America despite there being three Senior Council members who reside there. In the two days it took Morgan to reach him, you'd think that someone might have passed the word for him to be on the lookout for unusual activity near there with no need to mention the manhunt for Morgan. Then Morgan arrives and there are two days of TC and still no one goes the the island until Harry tells them to meet him there.
Even after arriving there, they are so concerned with Morgan's capture than no one, besides Rashiid, says anything about it even though Eb and Listens both show awareness of Harry's link to Demonreach? That shows either complete trust in Harry or a startling level of incompetence on the Council's part. Surely there should have been some questions asked or some pointers given. Perhaps a word to Harry about keeping a watch on the island might be advisable. Harry isn't completely resolved of this either. He made the pact and didn't do a thing to learn about it until he was forced to.
And then after Changes, after a second Warden over the island in murdered, no one thinks to say, "Hey, maybe the bad guys are plotting something to do with the prison."? They don't post a guard or have someone do periodic checks?
At some point, you have to realize that the secrecy you're protecting has become so paranoid that it's causing far more harm than good. The mushroom treatment given to even dedicated wardens causes more rebels in the long term out of ignorance and frustration than the protection it provides against possible traitors. Unless they're just that bad at evaluating the character of all their trainees.
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This makes lots of sense.
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You misconstrue, the punishment room in Arctis Tor is the NeverNever backdoor to Demonreach, but you have to get past Mab AND then Alfred in the real world. But in doing so it provided an idea of the force required to overcome Alfred with a Warden, so not a total failure. A first attempt at a break in to ascertain how bad the defences were, for a better organised attempt in the future.
They successfully did the former and failed on the latter. For most beings Demonreach is a one way ticket, word of Alfred is very unlikely to get out. Only a handful of Wardens may have actually been privy to its full secrets with nothing ever written down because of the Archive, and if originally it was only accessed by the NeverNever, (likely as most of its history predates midern transport) its physical location may not have been known, especially as it doesn’t appear on maps. This made it more difficult for Kemmler to get back to Demonreach. Mab had closed the backdoor and made travel to the island by boat dangerous, especially for a wizard whose power is grounded by magic. The connection between Merlin and Mab in Peace Talks has been established
listen to the Wind and McCoy are relatively ‘local’ so may have figured out the rough area, getting final directions from Harry, merely confirmed it. As Blackstaff Eb may have been the last to deliver a Prisoner to Demonreach before Harry, presumably via the Never Never. Fortier may have been taken to the island by Rashid in the Never, Never with the blessing of Mab to become Warden and never went back.
Mab clearly had met Kemmler, hers is a personal opinion, which tends to support this theory. Rashid would shepherd a new Warden via Arctis Tor and probably make an introduction to Mab. This is pre Accords, so Mab would have been less on speaking terms with the Senior Council and other Wizards at this point, except Rashid.
Much of the series since Grave Peril has been about (1) controlling Harry and (2) controlling Demonreach with (1) and (2) becoming the same thing in Turn Coat.
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Everything that happens through Cold Days revolves around an attempt to replace Mab on the throne with Maeve.
The attack on Demonreach is meant to sow chaos. Butcher does a callback to Nicodemus's words in Death Mask to draw that association."Then why do this?"
Nicodemus studied me for a moment before smiling. "Apocalypse is a frame of mind," he said then. "A belief. A surrender to inevitability. It is despair for the future. It is the death of hope."
“Apocalypse isn’t an event,” Nemesis murmured. “It is a frame of mind.”
I probably would have staggered anyway, but the phrase hit hard.
“This was less a plan than . . . an act of faith, I suppose you would say,” the Outsider continued through Justine’s lips.
“Faith?” I asked.
“In what is coming,” the Walker said. “The unraveling of all things into darkness and silence.”
The last of the text from Battle Ground contrasts in how the event is seen by different eyes. Be it despair and the loss of hope or from Nemesis's POV the faith that the event will occur.
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You misconstrue, the punishment room in Arctis Tor is the NeverNever backdoor to Demonreach, but you have to get past Mab AND then Alfred in the real world. But in doing so it provided an idea of the force required to overcome Alfred with a Warden, so not a total failure. A first attempt at a break in to ascertain how bad the defences were, for a better organised attempt in the future.
What is your evidence for this? Can you sight a quote from any of the novels or short stories to back this up? Story,chapter, page please. The only thing close that I can think of is Lea's garden that was connected to Harry's basement apartment.. But that isn't the same as you are suggesting.
They successfully did the former and failed on the latter. For most beings Demonreach is a one way ticket, word of Alfred is very unlikely to get out. Only a handful of Wardens may have actually been privy to its full secrets with nothing ever written down because of the Archive, and if originally it was only accessed by the NeverNever, (likely as most of its history predates midern transport) its physical location may not have been known, especially as it doesn’t appear on maps. This made it more difficult for Kemmler to get back to Demonreach. Mab had closed the backdoor and made travel to the island by boat dangerous, especially for a wizard whose power is grounded by magic. The connection between Merlin and Mab in Peace Talks has been established
The closest thing to this is when Merlin created the island in the first place, he did emerged from the Nevernever as described by Alfred and Bob explained to Harry in Cold Days. However while what you suggest is a cool theory, even a theory has to have some hard evidence either in print or WOJ to back it up.
listen to the Wind and McCoy are relatively ‘local’ so may have figured out the rough area, getting final directions from Harry, merely confirmed it. As Blackstaff Eb may have been the last to deliver a Prisoner to Demonreach before Harry, presumably via the Never Never. Fortier may have been taken to the island by Rashid in the Never, Never with the blessing of Mab to become Warden and never went back.
No evidence for any of that.. Eb could have possibly taken a prisoner to the island, to what purpose? Eb doesn't have the authority as Warden to bind the prisoner and jail he,she,or it. Rashid has as little to do with the island as possible, this is clearly stated in his conversation with Harry on What's Up Dock in Turn Coat. Paraphrasing, "The island has a grudge against me.."
Mab clearly had met Kemmler, hers is a personal opinion, which tends to support this theory. Rashid would shepherd a new Warden via Arctis Tor and probably make an introduction to Mab. This is pre Accords, so Mab would have been less on speaking terms with the Senior Council and other Wizards at this point, except Rashid.
What is your evidence that "Mab clearly met Kemmler"? Why would Rashid shepherd a new Warden to meet Mab? Mab doesn't have anything to do with the island... More pointedly by her reaction in Cold Days to Harry's threat "to sic Alfred on her," she has no say at all on the island.
Much of the series since Grave Peril has been about (1) controlling Harry and (2) controlling Demonreach with (1) and (2) becoming the same thing in Turn Coat.
If that is Mab's aim, she isn't very successful.. Also it is clear from when Harry awakens in Ghost Story and the exchange between Mab and Alfred, on the island at least, Mab has no control of either Harry or the island.
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No, this was not an attack on Mab, she was not the intended target, if Maeve had succeeded Mab would have survived. She only turned up when it failed, to get her new Winter Lady.
The quotes are either lazy writing or Nicky is quoting someone else, that “someone else” is likely the Black Council Denarian. There is no indication Nicky is working with the Black Council (wittingly at least).
It would be typical of Jim to show us something only for us to not realise the import at the time. The rules of the NeverNever are such that Demonreach would back onto somewhere similar in the Never Never. We have seen Mab’s punishment room, her prison for the poweful the other likely option is Tartarus in Hades realm, less likely as that is a prison for ordinary souls.Maeve wouldn’t be able to access Tartarus, and wouldn’t dare, Rashid might have access, but both would have to have access from the same point to get onto Demonreach via the Never Never.
Merlin clearly built Demonreach as the ultimate prison, so he won’t have left the backdoor to the NeverNever unguarded, and will have designed a congruency into its creation with a particular point in the Never Never.
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“What do you suppose will happen to you if you do not heed Mab’s command?” “Command?” I asked. “Don’t be coy, child,” Mother Summer sniffed. “What my counterpart knows, I know. Mab commanded you to slay Maeve. What do you think will happen if you disobey her?” I walked for a while before I answered, “It depends whether or not Mab’s still around when the smoke clears, I guess,” I said. “If she is . . . she’ll be upset. I’ll wind up like Lloyd Slate. If she isn’t . . .” “Yes?” “Maeve assumes Mab’s mantle and becomes the new Winter Queen.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 333). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
This is explicit and straightforward. Cold Days was meant to be the coda on the story to that date.. And with the exception of one or two points it clears the books.
That quote isn't an accident. Butcher does this a lot as in these two examples from Summer Knight and Proven Guilty.Sudden blue light gathered around her fingers, and the temperature in the room dropped by about forty degrees. She spoke again, and flicked her wrist, sending glowing motes of azure flickering toward Slate.
The snowflake brand flared into sudden light, and Slate's advance halted, his body going rigid. The skin around the brand turned blue, then purple, then black, spreading like a stop-motion enhanced film of gangrene. A quiet snarl slipped from Slate's lips, and I could see his body trembling with the effort to continue toward Maeve. He shuddered and took another step forward.
He shivered then, and when he exhaled his breath came out in a long, frosty plume. The temperature had dropped maybe forty degrees in the space of a minute.
I struggled to ignore the sounds of frightened people in the dark and focused on my magical senses. I reached out to the cold and the gloom, and found it a vaguely familiar kind of spellworking, though I couldn’t remember precisely where I’d encountered it before.
“What’s wrong?” Rawlins asked, his voice tight.
We passed under one of the hotel’s emergency light fixtures, its floodlights only dim orange rings in the murk until my amulet’s light burned the shadows away. “Dark magic,” I growled through clenched teeth. “A kind of ward. Trying to keep me from moving ahead.”
I just showed you where he had seen it. And he runs into the same ward that Slate did. Murk is also used in this scene and is used again in Small Favor.
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Of course each Mother knows what the other does, they are both Intellectus. Doesn’t apply to Queens or Ladies.
Those quotes do not point to an attack on the succession, they point to an attack to prevent Maeve betraying Winter. Remember Mad had an inside man for decades way before Grave Peril.
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The Mother's know what each does for a number of reasons. The are part of something that was split to make them, maybe Hecate. They are also the Fates. When Harry summons Mother Winter he uses her other names.
Athropos! Skuld! Mother Winter, I summon thee!”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 319). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Leading to this exchange.Mother Winter’s rocker creaked, though it didn’t really seem to move. “He knew certain names. He was not wholly stupid in choosing them, or wholly wrong in using them.” Mother Summer’s bright green eyes narrowed. “Did he . . . ?” “No,” croaked Mother Winter. “Not that one. But he has seen the adversary, and learned one of its names.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 329). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Mab has given her word to defend the Gates. There is no outcome where the Gates are opened that ends with Mab as a living Queen. Butcher has pretty much made that explicit. The recurring theme throughout Cold Days is who does Harry need to kill.
I going to share some random thoughts since we seem to be talking past each other. The tendency is to look at the Queens and think the Hecate was split into Winter and Summer and then to Mother, Matron and Lady. Butcher in one of the thousands of WOJ's says that is incorrect. I suspect the third Fate's manifestation is the Outer Gates.
I think that the Lady and the Knight were creations different then the Queens, that is that the Queen's become part of Hecate but the Lady and the Knight don't. This is weakly supported in the text. One of the purposes of the Ladies Mantle may to be to remove the humanity from the person who assumes it to prepare them to be the Queen. And this would be why Molly and the Ladies cannot have sex.
Rashid may have been a former Winter Knight and may represent what Harry could become. That is purely speculative. I could go on but I think people are already rolling their eyes.
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I think that the Lady and the Knight were creations different then the Queens, that is that the Queen's become part of Hecate but the Lady and the Knight don't. This is weakly supported in the text. One of the purposes of the Ladies Mantle may to be to remove the humanity from the person who assumes it to prepare them to be the Queen. And this would be why Molly and the Ladies cannot have sex.
I don't think so, Skin Game page336
"Is that Hecate?" Ascher murmured, staring up at the statues in awe. "The triple goddess of the crossroads, right?"
I swallowed. "Uh. It. . .Yes, it might be."
And it might also be Grannies Summer and Winter, Mab, Titania, Sarissa, and Molly Carpenter. But I didn't say anything about that.
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Whatever works for you. I'm going to try and support it but the WOJ database is almost useless on search. I'll either post it or I won't.
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Nemesis role is as saboteur to sow discord and dissent behind the “enemy” lines and weaken the current defenders of the Gates. Killing the Queen is no good because of the Succession of Mantles. Winter’s role is actually the protector of humanity. Destroy humanity then Winter loses its purpose and the Gates fail. That is why all the apocalypses, or attempts at the same. Damage humanity enough through an ice age, or a plague or a massive super explosion by blowing up Demonreach’s failsafe, or setting a Titan on humanity then it weakens the Defenders enough for the Gates to be breached.
In the Mirrorverse we have to presume Harry did not stop the Summer Knights power going into Winter (strengthening Winter) causing an Ice Age. Harry did not stop the plague Nicodemus unleashed with the fake Shroud. Harry did not stop the Red Court decimating the White Council and getting its fangs deeper into humanity. Harry did not become Warden of Demonreach meaning someone else maybe and is releasing its inhabitants on humanity, and there is a Titan roaming free, taking out City after City. That may well be the Mirror Universe that will appear in Mirror Mirror, a terminator style apocalypse where humanity is losing and losing badly and the Gates are crumbling.
If the Gates are breached, yes Mab will be dead, so will everyone else in that universe, the White God probably deletes any universe where that occurs to prevent all of reality being affected, plus any universe(s) which split from the infected universe. Thus if the Mirrorverse gates fail then it will be deleted but not the Prime Dresdenverse as they split in Grave Peril.
If Harry defeats Nemesis (including the Black Council, and quite possibly their dupes like Nicky) then the Dresdenverse Prime is safe as well as all split off universes from it. At least for now.
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Nemesis role is as saboteur to sow discord and dissent behind the “enemy” lines and weaken the current defenders of the Gates. Killing the Queen is no good because of the Succession of Mantles. Winter’s role is actually the protector of humanity. Destroy humanity then Winter loses its purpose and the Gates fail. That is why all the apocalypses, or attempts at the same. Damage humanity enough through an ice age, or a plague or a massive super explosion by blowing up Demonreach’s failsafe, or setting a Titan on humanity then it weakens the Defenders enough for the Gates to be breached.
Yes, that is why Nemesis tried to infiltrate the Winter Court with the Knife, and with the infection of Maeve nearly succeeded. I think we have yet to see the full repercussions from that. Yes, seemingly it all turned out but because she internalizes so much we don't know what having to order the death of her daughter and death of her daughter did to Mab.
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Mother Summer tells you the possible outcomes. With Mab dead and Maeve in charge the brakes would be off. Harry would eventually end up like Slate and without Mab to enforce the accords Summer would go to war to protect humanity, which is Titania's purpose, again per Mother Summer. Cold Days was the end of an arc and it ties up most of the mysteries of the first half.
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Mother Summer tells you the possible outcomes. With Mab dead and Maeve in charge the brakes would be off. Harry would eventually end up like Slate and without Mab to enforce the accords Summer would go to war to protect humanity, which is Titania's purpose, again per Mother Summer. Cold Days was the end of an arc and it ties up most of the mysteries of the first half.
Yes, but we also have the conversation between Harry and Mab after Maeve's death, and Mab admits to being human once. Kringle warns Harry to not have this kind of conversation in front of others because of her pride and perhaps fear of appearing vulnerable. In my opinion this hints of possible future problems with Mab aside from the obvious ones. It may have even been a factor in Mab ordering Harry to kill Molly if something happens to her. I know we've come up with a lot of explanation, like she wants Lara to be her successor or that Molly isn't ready so kill her off. However this order came before she proposed the marriage between Harry and Lara, so if Mab died, and the mantle automatically passed to Molly, Mab is asking Harry to kill his Queen. It is just very odd is all I am saying.
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Actually Mab telling Harry to kill Molly is foreshadowed in Cold Days. When Harry is trying to determine if or not to obey Mab. Mother Summer asks Harry how Maeve would treat him. Molly is on the same horse she is just a different rider. Maeve hated Harry. Molly loves him. It's two different faces of the same coin. And Mab tells Harry as much in Battle Ground.
“Everyone,” she said, “thinks that hate and love are somehow opposite forces. They are not. They are the same force, facing opposite directions.” She glanced aside at me. “Love is a fire, my Knight. Love turned the wrong way has killed as many as hate.
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 394). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
The point of my argument with CT is that the primary story arc in the books through Cold Days represents an attack on the Fae Courts, though primarily Winter and Mab. The Fae get more time on the page in the books through Cold Days then any of the other characters. They show up in all of these.
Grave Peril
Summer Knight
Dead Beat
Proven Guilty
Small Favor
Changes
Ghost Story
Cold Days
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Actually Mab telling Harry to kill Molly is foreshadowed in Cold Days. When Harry is trying to determine if or not to obey Mab. Mother Summer asks Harry how Maeve would treat him. Molly is on the same horse she is just a different rider. Maeve hated Harry. Molly loves him. It's two different faces of the same coin. And Mab tells Harry as much in Battle Ground.
I don't think Maeve hated Harry, I don't think she was capable of love or hate, not where Harry comes in. I think she loved her mother and it turned into hate or more like the quote you sight. I also don't think it is the same horse exactly either. Even if it is the same horse, it is all about how it is ridden that counts in the end, that is why jockeys are so important.
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Argue it with Mab, she stated it in the text, I'm not that cretive
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Maeve didn’t know the difference between love and hate, she was deeply insane only held together at all by her Mantle.
This wasn’t a new development, however the nemfection of Lea distracted Mab from dealing with Maeve and Lloyd Slate and the existing problems in her Court. She had placed the Redcap to watch Maeve because of them.
Lea was a diversion. It delayed Mab taking action against Maeve.
Maeve was intent on taking action against humanity, not in succeeding Mab.
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Maeve didn’t know the difference between love and hate, she was deeply insane only held together at all by her Mantle.
This wasn’t a new development, however the nemfection of Lea distracted Mab from dealing with Maeve and Lloyd Slate and the existing problems in her Court. She had placed the Redcap to watch Maeve because of them.
Lea was a diversion. It delayed Mab taking action against Maeve.
Maeve was intent on taking action against humanity, not in succeeding Mab.
I actually agree with this, she was warped even before she got infected with the Knife. While Mab didn't realize Maeve was infected until it was too late to cure her, I don't think infected Lea as a distraction is the reason. Mab, I think loved both her daughters, and in truth willfully blinded herself to the short comings, excesses, and twisted behavior of her daughter, who also was the Winter Lady. Even with Red Cap keeping an eye on her, it wasn't enough and she still didn't catch the fact that her daughter was infected, the prior behavior was that outrageous. That is the main reason why Molly has been so busy, she has been playing catch up and making up for the hundred fifty years plus of Maeve's misbehavior and neglect of her job.
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I can only go with the text. I've cited chapter and verse to support my position and as such that is all I can do.
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I can only go with the text. I've cited chapter and verse to support my position and as such that is all I can do.
I appreciate that, we are just reading it differently is all. That is what this board is about different opinions about what we are reading. ;)
Mab isn't wrong as far as love killing as many as hate, it has and does. I need to see the quote in context because I don't think it applies to Maeve and Molly in terms of the "same horse in this case, since Maeve was mentally disturbed, then infected and became more insane, while Molly is not.
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I think maybe Maeve welcomed the infection, it allowed her to lie despite the Mantle, and act against it.
Nemesis can only be in so many places at once. What if Mab didn’t cure Lea, but Nemesis voluntarily left Lea for a more willing vessel? Maeve. What if Mab knew this? She just tortured Lea until Nemesis moved to the host she wanted it to move to.
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I think maybe Maeve welcomed the infection, it allowed her to lie despite the Mantle, and act against it.
Nemesis can only be in so many places at once. What if Mab didn’t cure Lea, but Nemesis voluntarily left Lea for a more willing vessel? Maeve. What if Mab knew this? She just tortured Lea until Nemesis moved to the host she wanted it to move to.
I am wondering if Maeve wasn't Nemesis's target all along? There were hints early on that Lea was a bit discontented thinking perhaps that Mab didn't appreciate her. So when Harry out of ignorance and fear tried to kill her with the Sword of Love and she gained the Sword it gave her an opening when she is gifted the Knife. What is odd though is the next time we see the Knife if I remember correctly it is Mab that is wearing it in her belt. No mention of Maeve being anywhere near it if I remember correctly. What is also odd, is though Mab is seen wearing the Knife in her belt, she somehow eludes infection. Or did she? We think in Proven Guilty that in the ice garden where Lea is undergoing treatment, Mab is just hiding out. Or is she? Did she by this time realize the source of Lea's infection and is prophetically treating herself as well? I think so.. Having said all of that when did Maeve come in contact with the Knife? Did Lea let her examine it before Mab got hold of it? Mab evidently realized pretty quickly that it was infected, but didn't realize that Maeve had had contact? Or more likely I think, the target was Maeve, she got the full blast of the infection, that is really why Mab couldn't cure her. She and Lea on the other hand had fairly mild infections, so they were able to treat it and were cured.
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Maeve didn't want to be cured, Lea did. Lea admits that she wasn't in her right mind in GS and Sarissa makes this point to Maeve in CD. Maeve rejects the overture and Mab's offer to cure her and return her to her duties, thus sealing her fate.
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Maeve didn't want to be cured, Lea did. Lea admits that she wasn't in her right mind in GS and Sarissa makes this point to Maeve in CD. Maeve rejects the overture and Mab's offer to cure her and return her to her duties, thus sealing her fate.
That's my point, though you express it better than me. Maeve was the real target, Nemesis merely used Lea to get near her. Nemesis knew that Maeve was vulnerable in the extreme, and was also aware of the dynamics that set up her eventual infection. They also understood that because she was already unstable her infection would go unnoticed by Mab until it was too late for her to do anything about it except what she did. I also think the scene with Harry in the chapel in Small Favor is Mab realizing what had happened and being totally pissed with herself over it.
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The Athame was vector for a strong and unwilling host. Maeve was a willing host, so transmission was Athame to Lea (unwilling but strong) to Maeve (strong but willing) to Justine (unwilling but weak).
Again Mab must have realised that Justine was likely Nemfected right from Cold Days, but didn’t tell Harry.
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Mab states precisely how Maeve was nemfected in the denouement in Cold Days. Lea got to Maeve before Mab got to Lea. My best guess is somewhere around Summer Knight.
“It was the knife,” Mab said. “Knife?” “Morgana’s athame,” Mab said in a neutral tone—but her eyes were far away. “The one given her by the Red Court at Bianca’s masquerade. That was how the Leanansidhe was tainted—and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right.”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 513). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Mab shows up in Dead Beat with the Atheme which places Lea on ice at the point. "Because I do not tolerate challenges to my authority," she said. One pale hand drifted to the hilt of the knife at her belt. "Certain events had convinced your godmother that she was no longer bound by my word and will. She is now learning otherwise."
So at that point Maeve must also be nemfected.
To quote from the Lord of the Rings. "One does not simply walk into Mordor." You just don't portal into Mab's fortress. Otherwise she would have all sorts of deviants creeping in trying to kill her. And we know she can restrict it from Cold Days.without inside help. Even traveling by Ways takes at least some time, and I’d expected a hike back to the real world. “How?” I asked quietly. “Her Majesty had it made,” Sith said. I whistled. Intentionally forming a connection from a specific place to a specific place took amounts of energy so enormous that even the White Council of Wizards could rarely manage it—I’d seen it done only once in my lifetime, the year before, in Chichén Itzá. “She had it made? For me?” “Indeed,” Sith said. “In fact, this is, for the time being, the only way in or out of Faerie.” I blinked several times. “You mean Winter?” “Faerie,” Sith stated. “All of it.” I choked. “Wait. You mean all of Faerie is on lockdown?”
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 76-77). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Maeve had to be the one who opened the door by setting up a portal in Pell's theater.
But, Harry sinks Cowls battleship in Dead Beat, he doesn't ascend, doesn't get to play god. Namshiel has to haul ass because Winter is coming for blood(There is actually a WOJ on this)At the end of the day, the Winter Queen was still in her fortress–but you didn’t see anyone standing around assaulting the place, did ya. :) Also, it has probably occurred to more than one of you that if Mab was /really/ in trouble, she could have had the entire military might of Faerie back at the fortress in moments–exactly the way they *did* come back when Harry smacked the Winter Well with the fires of Summer.
. Maeve lets him out and they both scoot. Had Cowl succeeded poof on the WC and Mab would have be looking over her shoulder. On the other hand if Maeve wanted to disappear all she had to do was git. I'm open to any better narrative.
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Yep, I read the same passage from Cold Days in formulating my theory, and it is consistent with it.
Again Lea being on ice in Dead Beat is a given, but not that Maeve is infected at that point. Lea is still infected by Proven Guilty and the attack on Arctis Tor to “free her” is supposed to have failed, but it is only presumed that this was to “free” Lea. It may have been the point of infection for Maeve as well as to test the level of protection of Demonreach’s backdoor.
The invaders were not portalling into Arctis Tor, they broke in via the Front Gate, they would have gone to a marshalling point in Winter not protected and from there and travelled by foot. Part of Nemfected Leas purpose may have been to be discovered and inprisoned, either confirming or re-making the backdoor to Demonreach.
Pell’s theatre may have been a natural congruency to the part of Winter where the phobo phages dwelt, it dealt in phantom images of fear, and had for quite some time. If so it would explain why Peabody travelled from Edinburgh to Chicago, he then only had to travel across town by cab to Pell’s theatre, come out near Arctis Tor to be met by Maeve who took him to Mab’s ice prison and the backdoor to Demonreach. Peabody simply didn’t have a more direct route, and this route had been surveyed by the Black Council in Proven Guilty.
Mab may have allowed the attack to confirm a few things, such as Maeve’s connivance, Denarian involvement with the Black Council, having this as Molly’s audition for a potential Winter Lady, and getting a further handle on Harry to be the Winter Knight. It may also have been allowed to lull the Black Council into a false sense of security.
Remember Nicky was owed a favour by Mab before and during Proven Guilty, so wouldn’t the attack by the Denarians have erased that? It confirmed Nicky wasn’t in control of all the Denarians to Mab, as the favour still stood until Skin Game. Harry further confirmed this in Battle Ground with Namshiel.
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Remember Nicky was owed a favour by Mab before and during Proven Guilty, so wouldn’t the attack by the Denarians have erased that? It confirmed Nicky wasn’t in control of all the Denarians to Mab, as the favour still stood until Skin Game. Harry further confirmed this in Battle Ground with Namshiel.
Mab has a bone to pick with Namshiel for using Hell Fire on Arctis Tor, she states it clearly in Small Favor. Wonder how she is going to react to Marcone once she finds out he has the coin.
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Mab has a bone to pick with which Denarian without Nicky’s consent used Hellfire in Arctis Tor.
There are only three known magic users amongst the Denarians we have met, and we haven’t met all thirty as Denarians. There could be a small group three or so, who are not working with either Nicky or his wife, but in fact Black Council who are wizards, or changelings or were half Red vamps, where delayed aging would be so noticeable.
Mab can confirm whether or not it was Namshiel, if she and Vadderung REALLY need a blackened Denarius and it’s Angel, they now know where one is. Perhaps a trade of equal value? The Kringle Mantle for example, Marcone would know how much that would screw with Harry.
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The books say the Atheme infected Lea and Lea infected Maeve. This pretty much sews up the timing. After Dead Beat Lea infecting anybody is out of the question.
It finally occurred to me after rehashing this a number of times that we actually have a tell that points to when the plot in PG started. Sandra Marling. And if I'm right it tells us who Sandra Marling was. Consider Will's wedding and remember that Butcher has never written a paragraph that he won't reuse. Consider Something Borrowed. Butcher throws it in your face in PG. He calls out Jenny Greenteeth. I felt stupider then normal when this fell on me.Mab has a bone to pick with Namshiel for using Hell Fire on Arctis Tor, she states it clearly in Small Favor. Wonder how she is going to react to Marcone once she finds out he has the coin.
She knows. Harry told her in BG.
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She knows. Harry told her in BG.
I don't remember that, but I will take your word for it. Point is, does Marcone know she knows, and does he know the implications of it? He knows a little of her taste for revenge, and that she plays a mean four dimensional game of chess. Hmmm... I wonder if that is why she seemed to take satisfaction in Harry getting Marcone's castle and making him squirm just a bit? Could there be a connection somehow with why she wants Harry to marry Lara? Admittedly I don't see one, but with Mab you never know.
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“Prove it,” I said. “Sir Baron.” Marcone eyed me. Then glanced past me to the Queen of Air and Darkness. Mab’s eyebrow went up so far that it threatened the line of her skull. Then she said, as if to Marcone, “Much is explained.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 385). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
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I wonder who else caught it?
Marcone and Mab obviously.
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It doesn't really matter does it?
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I wonder who else caught it?
Marcone and Mab obviously.
Probably everyone in the room.
Harry is about as subtle as a bull in a China shop even when trying- and I doubt he was trying that hard since, y'know, fuck Marcone.
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“Prove it,” I said. “Sir Baron.” Marcone eyed me. Then glanced past me to the Queen of Air and Darkness. Mab’s eyebrow went up so far that it threatened the line of her skull. Then she said, as if to Marcone, “Much is explained.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 385). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Oh cleverly written, on one hand a flashing neon sign, "MAB KNOWS!" On the other hand vague enough to give Jim wiggle room down the line.
Probably everyone in the room.
Harry is about as subtle as a bull in a China shop even when trying- and I doubt he was trying that hard since, y'know, fuck Marcone.
Not quite, if Harry wanted to advertise, he would have, with no subtlety.. I imagine Vadderung knows, the Archive/Ivy, but I doubt the others in the room know. It is also possible that Molly knows because of her closeness to Harry, Mab, and because she is her father's daughter.
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It really doesn't matter who knows as long as Mab does. And she can't do anything about it since, as far as I know, the coins can't be destroyed. So keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. But you can be sure that Uriel knows.
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It really doesn't matter who knows as long as Mab does. And she can't do anything about it since, as far as I know, the coins can't be destroyed. So keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer. But you can be sure that Uriel knows.
Oh but when it comes to revenge, Mab has her ways, as Nic found out. She might not be able to directly affect Namshiel, but she can make Marcone pay big time for taking up the coin.
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I feel confident that Mab can find some way to get revenge, also on a Denarian. I don't think the revenge would be targeting Marcone, he is just a bystander to Namshiel. He was not the host when artist Tor was attacked. He might still get hit, but the revenge would not be designed for him.
But I am not sure she knows which Denarian it is that Marcone has taken up and she does not have something to settle with all of them. So for now I don't think she is going after him.
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Suspect or know? Harry knows and Mab had suspicions which Harry confirmed to her.
Remember the reveal was foreshadowed earlier in in Battle Ground when Marcone manifested a Knights Banner like Harry. The Winter Knight and Summer Knight Mantles already publicly held, as were two of the Swords (I am presuming the Knights can manifest a banner as well) this left one of the Swords not publicly held, so there is a little doubt, and not everyone would be aware of Marcone’s access to a coin.
A lot of those present knew Marcone had something beyond that of a vanilla mortal, they just are not sure what. They may suspect a coin, but they don’t know.
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In any case taking up Namshiel's coin might be the biggest mistake Marcone has ever made.
Mab says this in Small Favor page 402;
"Nicodemus and his ilk were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning to abuse them to further his ambition. That is reason enough to see his designs disrupted. And among the Fallen was one with much to answer for to me, personally, for its an attack upon my home."
Harry says Hell Fire was used on Arctis Tor, and on page 403, Thorned Namshiel is mentioned, and Mab loses it.. In her rage she says;
"I am Sidhe,"she hissed. "I am Queen of Air and Darkness. I am Mab." Her chin lifted, her eyes wide and white around the rippling colors of her irises---utterly insane. And I repay my debts, mortal. All of them."
It may take a while, but revenge is a dish best served cold, she is the Winter Queen, so Thorny will pay at some point and Marcone with him.
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If it was Namshiel, if it is, Mab would REALLY want that coin giving Marcone something significant to bargain with. Which leads us back to the theory that Marcone will ask for and get the Kringle Mantle free from vassalage to Mab. Marcone is a Member of the Accords, not Namshiel, so she can’t turn on Marcone
A single Denarian is no match for Mab even Marcone/Namshiel especially now Mab knows, and Marcone would rather negotiate, especially if it gets him the power and immortality he wants without ties to Namshiel or Mab.
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If it was Namshiel, if it is, Mab would REALLY want that coin giving Marcone something significant to bargain with.
What on earth would Mab have to offer Marcone? He now has a fallen angel at his back, a wizard to boot, Marcone is about power, all about power..
A single Denarian is no match for Mab even Marcone/Namshiel especially now Mab knows, and Marcone would rather negotiate, especially if it gets him the power and immortality he wants without ties to Namshiel or Mab.
I disagree, of Mab could easily have taken on one of the Fallen, she would have taken out Andriel. She didn't, instead she went for an elaborate plan to diminish Nic, but not kill him, thus releasing the coin to go to someone else.
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The Kringle Mantle, without vassalage gives Marcone exactly what he wants, without any ties, immortality and power, plus it keeps him on the good side of the Accorded Nations, where he is trying very very hard to be Luxembourg in the EU. Luxembourg is tiny, has disproportionate power and wealth and is Europe’s haven for dodgy cash.
The weak points with the Denarians is the human hosts, these can be overcome, Harry had a dozen in the bag once. Mab is not in the business of hunting Denarians, and Nicky owed her a favour, using that Favour was a foolhardy move, nothing now stands in her way against him now should he get in her way.
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What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.
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What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.
She can only keep it out of circulation for some time. But it represents power. She might be able to use it as a bargaining chip in some way.
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What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.
She could schedule some time for her direct vassal, the Winter Knight to put it at the bottom level of Demonreach and use all her power to aid in the binding. If Bob could hold the circle for a Titan, Mab can surely hold a Fallen.
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She could schedule some time for her direct vassal, the Winter Knight to put it at the bottom level of Demonreach and use all her power to aid in the binding. If Bob could hold the circle for a Titan, Mab can surely hold a Fallen.
She doesn't have to do that, as long as Harry or anyone else directly touches the coin, it can be locked away in a cell in maximum security on Demonreach. I don't think binding of any kind is needed. However having said that, more information is needed as to how the coins that were sent to the Vatican got back in circulation again.
She can only keep it out of circulation for some time. But it represents power. She might be able to use it as a bargaining chip in some way.
Only if she was pulling a double cross of come kind, she cannot use it to bargain with, the last thing she wants is for Namshiel to be loose on the world once again.
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What would she do with the coin if she had it? Show me anything that indicates it can be destroyed. or the Fallen within it attacked in any fashion.
Bait for Nicodemus. Just like the Spear was.
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She doesn't have to do that, as long as Harry or anyone else directly touches the coin, it can be locked away in a cell in maximum security on Demonreach. I don't think binding of any kind is needed. However having said that, more information is needed as to how the coins that were sent to the Vatican got back in circulation again.
IMDb not think that is a big mystery. Somebody got corrupted.
Only if she was pulling a double cross of come kind, she cannot use it to bargain with, the last thing she wants is for Namshiel to be loose on the world once again.
She knows the coin will get into circulation sooner or later, that is how they work. Also I suspect there are certain rules and understandings about the interaction between heaven/hell and the Sidhe and in if Namshiel himself (not his host) oversteps those Mab will have more options.
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IMDb not think that is a big mystery. Somebody got corrupted.She knows the coin will get into circulation sooner or later, that is how they work. Also I suspect there are certain rules and understandings about the interaction between heaven/hell and the Sidhe and in if Namshiel himself (not his host) oversteps those Mab will have more options.
I blame a suspicious but nondescript vending machine repairman at the Vatican of medium height wearing a skinny grey tie.
I suspect very few are immune to the call of the coins to be set free, the extremely strong willed and in the know, like Harry and only the Knights and the genuine clerics, and they are few and far between.
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Been awhile since I checked in on this, but there are some interesting points.
(1) LaFortier as the most recent Warden.
I really like this idea as it solves -- at least in my mind -- some nagging issues from Turn Coat. To what's been stated above, let me add one tiny additional assumption. Assume for the sake of argument that the existence and nature of "The Warden" is restricted information known only to the Senior Council members (and maybe not even them). There is some support from Rashid on this.
First, splitting the White Council into factions is simply not the same kind of stakes that earlier and later books establish. While no law requires every Dresden File to have all creation as the stakes, a possible fracturing of the White Council is just not that significant. Sure, the Wizards think that they are super important and that the Senior Council is the most important of all; however, in reality they are just one player in the Great Game and a fairly downscale retail outfit when compared to Heaven, Hell, Winter, Summer and even some of the more scuffed powers like the Fomor, Asgard and Hades.
If the White Council split, would it really matter that much? Harry and McCoy seem to think so, but I doubt that this is really true.
Second, if splitting the White Council is the goal, why not kill the Merlin instead? If you wanna see some infighting and jockeying for power, just wait for that guy to ride the Night-train to the Big Adios. Why not Mai? She seems less capable of defending herself in a physical confrontation than LaFortier. If you can program Lucio to kill La Fortier, you can program her to attack anyone.
Third, Christos has been a disappointment as a Black Council suspect. Harry and McCoy were initially convinced that he was, but in the subsequent years, I haven't seen any real evidence that he's actually bad -- he's just a self-important jackass (like all the others). Indeed, I don't think we have any real evidence that he's actually anti-Harry. Crucially, his injuries (badly burned) likely prevented him from voting on expelling Dresden. (I think only Merlin, Mai and maybe Liberty cast votes).
Given this, just opening a Senior Council seat seems like it doesn't quite fit. On the other hand, given ALL of the subsequent events, clearing a Warden out of Demonreach and then trying very hard to get rid of the "accidental" replacement or suborn him makes sense. It also makes sense that the Senior Council didn't immediately appoint a successor (assuming they can) and didn't check up on the place. They are so self-centered they assumed that the LaFortier Affair was about his Council Seat and not his Night Job. No one but the Senior Council knew that LaFortier was the Warden, after all, at least in their minds.
(2) Harry did not "stumble" on the Job
I don't think Harry accidentally stumbled on to the Job as Warden. He was carefully stage-managed into the job by none other than Uriel. In fact, recall that Harry could not have been the Warden without Soulfire. I'm sure an older, more skilled wizard could have managed without Soulfire, Soulfire was just Harry's cheat code to getting that Job a hundred years too young.
(3) Harry is the Adult, not the Toddler
While I like the toddler with a gun metaphor, in this metaphor Demonreach is the toddler, not Harry. Demonreach is sort of a super-natural Bam-Bam from the Flintstone's cartoon. Harry is the adult, because his threat assessment and response software is more calibrated.
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(3) Harry is the Adult, not the Toddler
While I like the toddler with a gun metaphor, in this metaphor Demonreach is the toddler, not Harry. Demonreach is sort of a super-natural Bam-Bam from the Flintstone's cartoon. Harry is the adult, because his threat assessment and response software is more calibrated.
I totally agree with this point especially, also neither Hades or Uriel would give a nuke rattle to a toddler..
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Going back to the OP what if Harry had gotten a promise from Ramirez, on his power, to keep his relationship with Thomas and Eb secret. Would
That revelation to Ramirez have assuaged Ramirez’s doubts? The explanation of why Harry was so tight with a White Court Vamp?
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Going back to the OP what if Harry had gotten a promise from Ramirez, on his power, to keep his relationship with Thomas and Eb secret. Would
That revelation to Ramirez have assuaged Ramirez’s doubts? The explanation of why Harry was so tight with a White Court Vamp?
I doubt it, it might have made it worse.
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I doubt it, it might have made it worse.
How? We know Harry is an unreliable narrator and he seriously misjudges people (see Hendricks) his constant desire for secrecy isolates him from people who like and want to support him. He should have trusted Ramirez. He was wrong not to.
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How? We know Harry is an unreliable narrator and he seriously misjudges people (see Hendricks) his constant desire for secrecy isolates him from people who like and want to support him. He should have trusted Ramirez. He was wrong not to.
You really think since Ramirez doesn't trust vampires to begin with that knowing that Thomas was Harry's brother would have made him trust him more? On the contrary in his mind it could have been an even stronger reason for Harry to be in league with the White Court, even if Harry's motives may have been more understandable.
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You really think since Ramirez doesn't trust vampires to begin with that knowing that Thomas was Harry's brother would have made him trust him more? On the contrary in his mind it could have been an even stronger reason for Harry to be in league with the White Court, even if Harry's motives may have been more understandable.
Harry’s honesty and forthrightness would have promoted trust… from Ramirez to Harry. :)
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Harry’s honesty and forthrightness would have promoted trust… from Ramirez to Harry. :)
Would it have? Under normal circumstances I would agree, but since his experience with Molly,
circumstances are no longer normal for Ramirez. After what happened, he no longer trusts the Winter Court, which is a normal reaction. Harry is part of the Winter Court since he is the Winter Knight. That's what is the main factor for Ramirez no longer trusting Harry, that, and I am sure one or more of Harry's enemies on the Senior Council doing their best to reinforce that. I don't think there is anything Harry can do or say at the moment to change that. These are truths that Carlos himself has to arrive at. And since Molly wasn't warned before hand by Mab about sex with mortals, I think it is all part of some long range plan of hers to ultimately divide both Molly and Harry from the mortal world.
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Would it have? Under normal circumstances I would agree, but since his experience with Molly,
circumstances are no longer normal for Ramirez. After what happened, he no longer trusts the Winter Court, which is a normal reaction. Harry is part of the Winter Court since he is the Winter Knight. That's what is the main factor for Ramirez no longer trusting Harry, that, and I am sure one or more of Harry's enemies on the Senior Council doing their best to reinforce that. I don't think there is anything Harry can do or say at the moment to change that. These are truths that Carlos himself has to arrive at. And since Molly wasn't warned before hand by Mab about sex with mortals, I think it is all part of some long range plan of hers to ultimately divide both Molly and Harry from the mortal world.
Fair point. Gggggrrrr…
I like Ramirez. I hate that he’s being cut away from Harry like this.
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Fair point. Gggggrrrr…
I like Ramirez. I hate that he’s being cut away from Harry like this.
As do I, but when Jim makes a significant point of writing a whole short story about how it happened.. Then we find in the first novel in years that Carlos is still crippled by the event, followed by the his attitude towards Harry at their final meeting, it is a set up for the future. What is sad, I doubt that Harry even knows what happened between Carlos and Molly, so is clueless as to why his friend is suddenly so cold towards him.
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I'm still WAG'ing that there's some hope Ramirez still trusts Harry, has the POV that Harry is doing a deep-cover penetration of the Bad Guys to root out the White Council corruption & traitor(s). Carlos is just going through the motions, paying lip-service to the "Harry Dresden is an incipient warlock... or worse!" party line amongst the more narrow-minded & reactionary (or just frightened) of the White Council.
I'm going back to White Night, where (in the Raith Deeps) he says:
Oh come on, man... You're lying to me. You're lying to the Council... I'm not an idiot... You can barely get by in Latin, but you speak Ghoul? Ancient Etruscan? ... You're involved with these things. More than you should be. You know them too well. Which is a really fucking disturbing thing to realize, considering we're talking about a race of mind-benders... this whole thing feels more like a setup every second.
But then in the final chapter -- which is a series of "wrap-things-up" vignettes, of which Carlos' is the 4th -- they have their heart-to-heart, which includes:
Harry: "Gee. A Warden doesn't trust me. That's a switch."
Ramirez blinked at me. "What?"
Harry: "I had Morgan sticking his nose into every corner of my existence for my entire adult life."
Ramirez: "All hail the drama queen. Harry... I'm talking about you not trusting me, man."
Harry: "Uh. What?"
Ramirez: "...You think whoever is leaking information to the vampires is pretty high up, and the less anyone in the Council knows about what you're doing, the better... so you can't trust our own people, but "you're cutting deals with the vampires..." He narrowed his eyes. "You think you might be able to find the traitor coming in from the other side."
<snip a bit about Marcone's dealings>
Ramirez spread his hands weakly. "Was that so damned hard, Dresden? To talk to me?"
Harry: "No."
Ramirez snorted gently. "Idiot."
Harry: "So, think I should come clean to the Merlin?"
Ramirez: "Are you kidding? He hates your guts. He'd have you declared a traitor, locked up, and executed before you got through the first paragraph... But I'm with you, man. All the way."
So, we see here the deep-cover plot hatched between Harry & Carlos. Carlos expects Harry to cut shady deals, to hang out with monsters, to alienate the White Council and get in tight with the Bad Guys(tm). And Carlos is doing his part, acting like he's losing faith in Harry; even taking steps to "push Harry away" and further demonstrate his "reactionary bona fides." In short, Carlos is acting like he's becoming a Morgan-esque hardcase. On his side, he's hoping that the "Bad Guys" will slip up, and he'll spot some clue(s) as to whose loyalties lay with the Black Council rather than the White.
And we see that Carlos knows Harry can be an idiot about these things. So, while Carlos can't be 100% certain Harry hasn't actually gone Sith-mode, he has seen Harry go to the mat repeatedly... always in favor of humans, and the underdog... and always against the Bad Guys(tm).
Moreover, I suspect Carlos gives a fair bit of weight to the opinions of the Knights of the Cross, who are all friendly with Harry... and that speaks immensely to which side of a fight Harry's going to be on (also, I suspect, it means the Bad Guys will never really be willing to trust Harry, and he's not going to get deep into any of their councils).
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I'm still WAG'ing that there's some hope Ramirez still trusts Harry, has the POV that Harry is doing a deep-cover penetration of the Bad Guys to root out the White Council corruption & traitor(s). Carlos is just going through the motions, paying lip-service to the "Harry Dresden is an incipient warlock... or worse!" party line amongst the more narrow-minded & reactionary (or just frightened) of the White Council.
I'm going back to White Night, where (in the Raith Deeps) he says:
But then in the final chapter -- which is a series of "wrap-things-up" vignettes, of which Carlos' is the 4th -- they have their heart-to-heart, which includes:
So, we see here the deep-cover plot hatched between Harry & Carlos. Carlos expects Harry to cut shady deals, to hang out with monsters, to alienate the White Council and get in tight with the Bad Guys(tm). And Carlos is doing his part, acting like he's losing faith in Harry; even taking steps to "push Harry away" and further demonstrate his "reactionary bona fides." In short, Carlos is acting like he's becoming a Morgan-esque hardcase. On his side, he's hoping that the "Bad Guys" will slip up, and he'll spot some clue(s) as to whose loyalties lay with the Black Council rather than the White.
And we see that Carlos knows Harry can be an idiot about these things. So, while Carlos can't be 100% certain Harry hasn't actually gone Sith-mode, he has seen Harry go to the mat repeatedly... always in favor of humans, and the underdog... and always against the Bad Guys(tm).
Moreover, I suspect Carlos gives a fair bit of weight to the opinions of the Knights of the Cross, who are all friendly with Harry... and that speaks immensely to which side of a fight Harry's going to be on (also, I suspect, it means the Bad Guys will never really be willing to trust Harry, and he's not going to get deep into any of their councils).
I really hope you’re right. But being brutalized by Molly… who Harry trained may really have screwed Ramirez up.
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I'm still WAG'ing that there's some hope Ramirez still trusts Harry, has the POV that Harry is doing a deep-cover penetration of the Bad Guys to root out the White Council corruption & traitor(s). Carlos is just going through the motions, paying lip-service to the "Harry Dresden is an incipient warlock... or worse!" party line amongst the more narrow-minded & reactionary (or just frightened) of the White Council.
I'm going back to White Night, where (in the Raith Deeps) he says:
But then in the final chapter -- which is a series of "wrap-things-up" vignettes, of which Carlos' is the 4th -- they have their heart-to-heart, which includes:
So, we see here the deep-cover plot hatched between Harry & Carlos. Carlos expects Harry to cut shady deals, to hang out with monsters, to alienate the White Council and get in tight with the Bad Guys(tm). And Carlos is doing his part, acting like he's losing faith in Harry; even taking steps to "push Harry away" and further demonstrate his "reactionary bona fides." In short, Carlos is acting like he's becoming a Morgan-esque hardcase. On his side, he's hoping that the "Bad Guys" will slip up, and he'll spot some clue(s) as to whose loyalties lay with the Black Council rather than the White.
And we see that Carlos knows Harry can be an idiot about these things. So, while Carlos can't be 100% certain Harry hasn't actually gone Sith-mode, he has seen Harry go to the mat repeatedly... always in favor of humans, and the underdog... and always against the Bad Guys(tm).
Moreover, I suspect Carlos gives a fair bit of weight to the opinions of the Knights of the Cross, who are all friendly with Harry... and that speaks immensely to which side of a fight Harry's going to be on (also, I suspect, it means the Bad Guys will never really be willing to trust Harry, and he's not going to get deep into any of their councils).
White Knight was a while back.. The thing with Molly affected Carlos big time.. The Carlos at the end of Battle Ground isn't the same man as the one we met in White Night.
really hope you’re right. But being brutalized by Molly… who Harry trained may really have screwed Ramirez up.
Agreed.
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This is the thing that most puzzles me about how people react to Harry. Anybody who researches him has to know that he is on a first name, Christmas dinner, emergency call list basis with all the Knights of the Cross of this past 20 years but they still want to classify him as one step from Kemmler 2.0. The level of distrust in the face of such obvious evidence just baffles me.
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This is the thing that most puzzles me about how people react to Harry. Anybody who researches him has to know that he is on a first name, Christmas dinner, emergency call list basis with all the Knights of the Cross of this past 20 years but they still want to classify him as one step from Kemmler 2.0. The level of distrust in the face of such obvious evidence just baffles me.
Agreed. Trust is a two way street after all. In other words Carlos should have trusted Harry.. The real low blow was when Ramirez blamed the loss of the other Wardens to the Black Court on Harry.
Harry had just saved everyone, and Carlos tells Harry that he should have talked to him? No wonder Michael cussed like a drunken sailor in several languages in terms that would even make a drunken sailor blush...
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Agreed. Trust is a two way street after all. In other words Carlos should have trusted Harry.. The real low blow was when Ramirez blamed the loss of the other Wardens to the Black Court on Harry.
Harry had just saved everyone, and Carlos tells Harry that he should have talked to him? No wonder Michael cussed like a drunken sailor in several languages in terms that would even make a drunken sailor blush...
That is why I thought Harry should have challenged Carlos at the end of Battle Ground. I really would have liked Harry to have stood up for himself more forcefully. It's why I suggested Harry should have said something like this; "OK Carlos, you want to know my secrets, I'll tell you one of them. Remember when I testified for Morgan and unmasked Peabody as a traitor? You were there and helped Eb find Peabody's magic ink. Well, there was something I kept to myself. There was a second wizard working with Peabody. I didn't have any solid evidence I could present to the Council and I don't know who it was; he or she must have known a different Way to get to the island than Peabody did, but I know someone else was there. For all I know it could have been you, but I don't think you would betray the Council so I'm willing to risk telling you this. Now ask yourself, who will you talk to about this new information I just gave you? Whoever on the Council you report to or might want to consult with could be the traitor or they might unknowingly tell the traitor what you reported to them. And that's probably the least dangerous secret that I am keeping and none of them have anything to do with Drakul. There's nothing I could have told you that would have changed what happened to Yoshino, Bill or Chandler. You can believe me or not. One day you will find out the truth and feel really stupid when you do."
I really didn't like the way Harry took that abuse and only made a somewhat cryptic reply back to Carlos in return. There are probably a number of other replies Harry might have made that would have been better than what he came up with. Even something like. "Yes, I keep secrets Carlos. So does everyone of significance on the Council. One thing I can tell you is none of my secrets have anything to do with Drakul..." and continued from there.
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I really didn't like the way Harry took that abuse and only made a somewhat cryptic reply back to Carlos in return. There are probably a number of other replies Harry might have made that would have been better than what he came up with. Even something like. "Yes, I keep secrets Carlos. So does everyone of significance on the Council. One thing I can tell you is none of my secrets have anything to do with Drakul..." and continued from there.
Agreed, only excuse I can see as to why Harry didn't hit back, is between exhaustion, his injuries [remember a Winter Knight can block the pain, but not the damage], and his grief over Murphy, Harry was very vulnerable... Carlos simply kicked him when he was down, as did the Council.
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Agreed, only excuse I can see as to why Harry didn't hit back, is between exhaustion, his injuries [remember a Winter Knight can block the pain, but not the damage], and his grief over Murphy, Harry was very vulnerable... Carlos simply kicked him when he was down, as did the Council.
Also, just that Harry *likes* Carlos, has been thinking of him as a friend.
In the face of someone he thinks of as an enemy -- the Merlin, or Mavra, or early/mid Morgan -- he's VERY verbally aggressive.
In the face of a friend -- even a currently-becoming-a-not-friend -- he's much less so.
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Also, just that Harry *likes* Carlos, has been thinking of him as a friend.
In the face of someone he thinks of as an enemy -- the Merlin, or Mavra, or early/mid Morgan -- he's VERY verbally aggressive.
In the face of a friend -- even a currently-becoming-a-not-friend -- he's much less so.
Yes, it was just one more blow that Harry had to suffer, because that he had considered Carlos a friend. That is one of the main things I think that really set Michael off. It would have been an interesting scene, if Michael had been able to tell Carlos what he really thought.
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Michael is the one person who knows pretty much everything about Harry, possession by a shadow Denarian, suicide attempt, superweapons, Demonreach, his family and still loves and respects Harry. If Carlos cannot take Harry’s word, he should be able to take that of Michael Carpenter former Knight of the Cross, fellow Catholic and living saint (I think he is still an agent of the White God, but in a different fashion, like but unlike Father Forthill).
Carlos couldn’t do that and made Michael swear.
The Title is wrong, Ramirez Should Have Trusted Harry. Carlos is keeping secrets from Harry, the tracker, his true instructions from the White Council, not telling him how he got injured, still refusing to admit he is a virgin, but who is vouching for Carlos?
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Michael is the one person who knows pretty much everything about Harry, possession by a shadow Denarian, suicide attempt, superweapons, Demonreach, his family and still loves and respects Harry. If Carlos cannot take Harry’s word, he should be able to take that of Michael Carpenter former Knight of the Cross, fellow Catholic and living saint (I think he is still an agent of the White God, but in a different fashion, like but unlike Father Forthill).
Carlos couldn’t do that and made Michael swear.
The Title is wrong, Ramirez Should Have Trusted Harry. Carlos is keeping secrets from Harry, the tracker, his true instructions from the White Council, not telling him how he got injured, still refusing to admit he is a virgin, but who is vouching for Carlos?
At this point? No one, he is a Warden of the White Council, he needs no one. Maybe that's part of the problem, it could be how Justin, a trusted Warden was able to steal Bob under their noses during that final raid on Kemmler and go warlock.. Heck, he might have been already a warlock at that point.
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Has anyone brought up when Harry needed to be talking to people and reassuring them that he hasn't gone rougue Carlos forces him to work security. Carlos knew about the vote before Harry did and he chose let him get thrown out just to keep a closer eye on him. In my opinion Carlos has sold himself and is not Harry's friend
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The Title is wrong, Ramirez Should Have Trusted Harry. Carlos is keeping secrets from Harry, the tracker, his true instructions from the White Council, not telling him how he got injured, still refusing to admit he is a virgin, but who is vouching for Carlos?
Have you ever heard the expression "Trust is a Two-Way Street"?
Like yeah, I agree that the Council are a bag of dicks. But here's the thing...
Since when has Harry ever tried to do anything that makes him seem trustworthy to them? The answer is never. He just acts like they should have read his mind and know that he's a good guy, obviously.
Ramirez and the Council don't know that Harry has a brother, just that he's apparently super-tight with a bunch of Mind-Rapists.
Ramirez and the Council don't know about his daughter, just that one day Harry decided to join the Queen of evil faeries and immediately committed genocide.
Ramirez and the Council don't know what happened on Demonreach, just that two demigods were murdered and replaced with people that Harry is allied with.
Ramirez and Harry don't know that it was a double cross, but they probably know that Harry was making friendly with Nicodemus recently.
Remember, if you haven't been reading the books, Harry looks dodgy as fuck.
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Since when has Harry ever tried to do anything that makes him seem trustworthy to them? The answer is never. He just acts like they should have read his mind and know that he's a good guy, obviously.
Actually he has toed the line pretty well, considering. He has had to, the only time he has really gone against them is when they wanted to give Molly the chop, and in defense of Morgan. They made him a Warden, they must think he was trustworthy at some point. He has had to prove himself over and over again.. But there is that faction that has never trusted him ever since he came before them as a scared 16 year old kid with a scary amount of talent..
Ramirez and the Council don't know that Harry has a brother, just that he's apparently super-tight with a bunch of Mind-Rapists.
But that didn't seem to matter to them before.. Do they know how Ramirez got hurt? That he was trying to have sex with the Winter Lady.. They might want to check his trustworthiness.
Ramirez and the Council don't know about his daughter, just that one day Harry decided to join the Queen of evil faeries and immediately committed genocide.
Actually that genocide was sanctioned by Langtree himself if I remember correctly. The Merlin wanted the Red Court dealt with, had a nice talk with Harry about it, but at the same time wanted to keep his hands clean. Also there is no evidence that the Winter Court is evil, on the contrary one of their Senior Members is helping the Winter Court guard the Outer Gates from Outsiders.
Ramirez and the Council don't know what happened on Demonreach, just that two demigods were murdered and replaced with people that Harry is allied with.
I don't know that you could call the Ladies demi-gods, even so, none of that has a whole lot to do with trusting Harry.
Ramirez and Harry don't know that it was a double cross, but they probably know that Harry was making friendly with Nicodemus recently.
They might also know that he is the keeper of the Holy Swords and that he hangs out with the Holy Knights.
Remember, if you haven't been reading the books, Harry looks dodgy as fuck.
So does the White Council, and your point is?
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My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.
The situation with Ramirez and the rest of the Council sucks, but it's very much a problem of Harry's own making, because as much as the White Council has treated Harry like shit, Harry has equally treated the Council like shit.
Like, this entire conflict could have been avoided, it only happened because Harry refused to interact with the Council except when he needs them to fight a war he started or save him from necromancers.
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My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.
The situation with Ramirez and the rest of the Council sucks, but it's very much a problem of Harry's own making, because as much as the White Council has treated Harry like shit, Harry has equally treated the Council like shit.
Like, this entire conflict could have been avoided, it only happened because Harry refused to interact with the Council except when he needs them to fight a war he started or save him from necromancers.
- Harry gained for the Council the right to use the Ways through Farie; or at least Winter's part of it, without which the Council would not have been able to compete with the Red Court.
- Defeating the Necromancers also helped the Council, especially the part that prevented one of them from gaining the power to destroy the Senior Council. Morgan understood that by the end of Dead Beat.
- Harry exposed a traitor at the heart of power within the White Council.
Harry has done other things that helped the Council, but these are the easy to understand ones. The last one alone should have gained Harry a fair amount of good will.
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My point is that the Council doesn't trust Harry because Harry never bothered to do anything that would actually engineer trust, despite knowing that they didn't like him.
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Maybe you answered your own question with that. Though the Council are wizards, and many of them are hundreds of years old, basically they are still human. Half of them never trusted Harry because of who his mother was, nor liked him. Harry can gain their respect, which he has, but that isn't the same as trust. Trust, they will never give him, because they fear him.
Ramirez said, "talk to me.."Those are words police say when they want a confession from a suspect. He wasn't asking it as a friend, the vibs from Chandler warned Harry of that. Harry has a right to remain silent because anything he'd say could and would be used against him. Maybe trust but verify would be more apt here, Ramirez didn't come to Harry as a friend,he came as a cop, he had Harry scanned for recent sexual activity, he came in force [by that I mean he had other Wardens with him], all this screams that Harry was already suspected of something. So if you were Harry, would you have trusted him?
You also bring up Morgan, what happened to Morgan is reason enough for Harry to be less than trusting, especially in the face of the warning vibs that Chandler was sending him. Morgan next to Luccio was one of the most trusted Wardens of the Council, he was their chief executioner. Yet he also fled the Council, not just because he looked guilty, but because he knew they had no interest in any proof of his innocence. In fact though Harry proved Peabody was behind the murder, and who knows how much more damage he did to the Council with his ink, yet the Council, i.e. the Merlin still felt that it was necessary for Morgan to be found responsible for the murder for political reasons. So we saw at the end of Battle Ground, for political reasons the Council trumps up charges that Harry killed "humans" with magic in battle. Though these "humans" were altered by the Fomor and no longer human, thus exspelled him from the Council and put him in effect under a death sentence. Was the angry Carlos acting like a friend when he gave that message to Harry? Did he acknowledge at all that Harry had a huge part in saving all of their bacon? No, he just accused him of becoming a monster and that he should have talked to him...
And Knight of the Cross Michael cussed in several languages words that even Harry didn't know...
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Though I have to say that the councils reasoning of we think Harry has been corrupted let's make sure that he only talks to monsters and let's take away our protection so he would have to make deals with them isn't what I would expect from a group of people with thousands of years of experience. It makes more sense if mab was behind it all. She never struck me as someone who shares well
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Maybe you answered your own question with that. Though the Council are wizards, and many of them are hundreds of years old, basically they are still human. Half of them never trusted Harry because of who his mother was, nor liked him. Harry can gain their respect, which he has, but that isn't the same as trust. Trust, they will never give him, because they fear him.
Ramirez said, "talk to me.."Those are words police say when they want a confession from a suspect. He wasn't asking it as a friend, the vibs from Chandler warned Harry of that. Harry has a right to remain silent because anything he'd say could and would be used against him. Maybe trust but verify would be more apt here, Ramirez didn't come to Harry as a friend,he came as a cop, he had Harry scanned for recent sexual activity, he came in force [by that I mean he had other Wardens with him], all this screams that Harry was already suspected of something. So if you were Harry, would you have trusted him?
Oh for sure, the time for Harry to start earning the Council's trust was well before Peace Talks. All I'm saying is that if Harry, after acknowledging that he'd need to start playing politics after saving Molly, had actually bothered to... play politics, instead of ignoring the Council until he next wanted a favour, he might have been better off for it. Instead he allowed his enemies on the White Council to act freely, relying on his connection to Eb to keep him in good standing despite never taking part in Council meetings, or doing his Warden duties, or generally acting like he was ever part of the White Council at all.
And Knight of the Cross Michael cussed in several languages words that even Harry didn't know...
I mean yeah, Michael has all the Context and stuff about Harry's actions that make him seem reasonable and not a nut-job, but the Council doesn't because the only times that the Council has seen Harry recently was Turn Coat where hard-core-loyalist-turned-'traitor' Morgan died to save him, and Changes, where he barges into a meeting and tries to murder an envoy before fucking off with no explanation.
The Council are wrong and also assholes, I won't deny it, but it's like... Harry does himself no favours with the way he approaches them, is all I'm saying. Like, I want to shake that boy sometimes and tell him to stop being so anti-social and self-sabotaging.
Though I have to say that the councils reasoning of we think Harry has been corrupted let's make sure that he only talks to monsters and let's take away our protection so he would have to make deals with them isn't what I would expect from a group of people with thousands of years of experience. It makes more sense if mab was behind it all. She never struck me as someone who shares well
Oh yeah I have no doubt that Mab had a hand in this, it feels very much her style. And the fact that the Council just went 'lol lets cut this guy off and hope that someone kills him for us' is really fucking dumb, because it:
A) Cuts off any potential leverage/influence the Council has on him and
B) Makes no fucking sense, since the Council never protected Dresden from jack shit, and everyone knows it. Remember that time when the Council almost sold him to the Red Court? Remember the time when someone sold him on Ebay and they did shit all?
But no, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was partly either Mab's agents in the Council cutting him off so that he'd be easier to mold, or Black Council agents ensuring Harry didn't ruin their next plan to take over the White Council, or something.
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Oh for sure, the time for Harry to start earning the Council's trust was well before Peace Talks. All I'm saying is that if Harry, after acknowledging that he'd need to start playing politics after saving Molly, had actually bothered to... play politics, instead of ignoring the Council until he next wanted a favour, he might have been better off for it. Instead he allowed his enemies on the White Council to act freely, relying on his connection to Eb to keep him in good standing despite never taking part in Council meetings, or doing his Warden duties, or generally acting like he was ever part of the White Council at all.
Just what would you have Harry do in this case? For at least a year after he saved Molly he was considered dead.. Then for another year Mab confined him to Demonreach.. Actually it was Rashid that restored him to the Council. After standing up for Molly he was considered a possible political rival for Langtree, a bit of a polarizing figure pitting older wizards verses the younger. He did uncover Peabody, didn't fight the need to find an innocent Morgan guilty. So if uncovering the fact that their trusted secretary was using ink to mind rape the lot of them didn't endear Harry to the Council, do you think showing up to meetings and smiling would?
I mean yeah, Michael has all the Context and stuff about Harry's actions that make him seem reasonable and not a nut-job, but the Council doesn't because the only times that the Council has seen Harry recently was Turn Coat where hard-core-loyalist-turned-'traitor' Morgan died to save him, and Changes, where he barges into a meeting and tries to murder an envoy before fucking off with no explanation.
Michael isn't an ordinary Joe, he is a Holy Knight.. Morgan was no traitor, all of the crap Peabody did was covered up. And right after that scene you are talking about Langtree takes Harry to one side and says he wants Harry to deal with her and the Red Court, but keep the Council's hands clean... Harry actually manages that, but it didn't earn him any brownie points with the Council.
But no, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it was partly either Mab's agents in the Council cutting him off so that he'd be easier to mold, or Black Council agents ensuring Harry didn't ruin their next plan to take over the White Council, or something.
All of that is BS, the truth of the matter is the Council is scared shitless of Harry. They may have had a hand in him being a starborn, but he is proving that he isn't their weapon to wield. He got their attention when he called up Za'Gard,Toot and his little motes of light men proved they could handle the flying squid things when Senior Council members couldn't. He is Warden of Demonreach, not sure if they know he is holder of the Spear or not, being Winter Knight is just a side show.. He has influence in both Winter and Summer Courts, with the Holy Knights, with the White Court, especially if he does marry Lara. Truth is, once he figures it out, Harry will realize he is a power on to himself that can rival the White Council, and they know it... No amount of playing nice is going to get any amount of trust from the Council.. That ship has sailed if there ever was a ship to sail to begin with..
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Just what would you have Harry do in this case? For at least a year after he saved Molly he was considered dead.. Then for another year Mab confined him to Demonreach.. Actually it was Rashid that restored him to the Council.
Dude, there was literally 4 years between Molly's trial and the events of Changes. In that time the only interaction the Council had with Harry was
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a bunch of Mind Rapists" (White Knight)
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a Mob Don" (Small Favor) and
"Hey guys I've been sheltering that Traitor you're after, come fight me on my creepy supervillain Island if you don't like it" (Turn Coat).
Like, we know that's not how any of those situations really were, but to the average Council member...
After standing up for Molly he was considered a possible political rival for Langtree, a bit of a polarizing figure pitting older wizards verses the younger. He did uncover Peabody, didn't fight the need to find an innocent Morgan guilty. So if uncovering the fact that their trusted secretary was using ink to mind rape the lot of them didn't endear Harry to the Council, do you think showing up to meetings and smiling would?
Not many people knew that, to the Council as a whole Morgan was the main traitor, remember? The Senior Council and other upper echelons is a bit different, but to most, that's how it went down.
Michael isn't an ordinary Joe, he is a Holy Knight..
Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt.
Morgan was no traitor, all of the crap Peabody did was covered up.
Hence the quotes around 'Traitor'.
And right after that scene you are talking about Langtree takes Harry to one side and says he wants Harry to deal with her and the Red Court, but keep the Council's hands clean... Harry actually manages that, but it didn't earn him any brownie points with the Council.
No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous.
All of that is BS, the truth of the matter is the Council is scared shitless of Harry. They may have had a hand in him being a starborn, but he is proving that he isn't their weapon to wield. He got their attention when he called up Za'Gard, Toot and his little motes of light men proved they could handle the flying squid things when Senior Council members couldn't
. He is Warden of Demonreach, not sure if they know he is holder of the Spear or not, being Winter Knight is just a side show.. He has influence in both Winter and Summer Courts, with the Holy Knights, with the White Court, especially if he does marry Lara. Truth is, once he figures it out, Harry will realize he is a power on to himself that can rival the White Council, and they know it... No amount of playing nice is going to get any amount of trust from the Council.. That ship has sailed
I mean yes, I absolutely agree. I just think that if Harry had taken an hour a month to show up to Council meetings, rub a couple shoulders, made a little small-talk, he'd have never had to deal with any of this shit (obviously this would have had to be pre-Changes, since after that he's never had the opportunity to do so).
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Dude, there was literally 4 years between Molly's trial and the events of Changes. In that time the only interaction the Council had with Harry was
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a bunch of Mind Rapists" (White Knight)
"Hey guys, need you to help me save a Mob Don" (Small Favor) and
"Hey guys I've been sheltering that Traitor you're after, come fight me on my creepy supervillain Island if you don't like it" (Turn Coat).
Like, we know that's not how any of those situations really were, but to the average Council member...
Um, lets see, rooted out Peabody who had the whole Senior Council by the short hairs with his magical ink.. Oh you forgot to mention that the Denarians were also holding the Archive.. The Archive is a power kind of important to the White Council.. And while most of the Council members may keep their heads up their robes most of the time, the Senior Council doesn't.
Not many people knew that, to the Council as a whole Morgan was the main traitor, remember? The Senior Council and other upper echelons is a bit different, but to most, that's how it went down.
Yeah, that was an interesting cover up don't you think? Maybe instead of saying Harry has done nothing to earn the Council's trust, maybe you should be asking after that why should Harry trust the Council at all? Rashid clearly doesn't and keeps stuff from them.
Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt.
While it is true that Michael doesn't judge, that is for the Almighty, neither does he suffer fools.. Not notice a Holy Knight of the Cross who just happened to have a lot to do with saving a bunch of Senior members of the Council at the end of Proven Guilty?
No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous.
It is a little more complicated than that.. What the Merlin tells Harry; page 59 Changes
"Uncounted billionsnow living and yet to be born will be saved if we stop the Red Court from feeding on humanity ever again."
Think about it, the White Council's army is depleted, so what counter attack could they use? If the Merlin had a handy dandy spell to wipe out the Red Court root and branch, he would have loosed it by now. So what is about the only way to completely wipe out the Red Court, roots and all, burn the roots and the seed, then salt the earth they fall upon? Why your handy dandy generational spell of course.. What is worth risking the sacrifice of a little girl's life? I bet the Merlin knows all about the connection between little Maggie, Harry, to Eb his Blackstaff, he also knows if anyone is capable of reversing and pulling off the reversal of the generational spell it is Harry, so he will gamble with their lives against wiping out the Red Court for good.. One little catch, the Merlin of the White Court cannot be seen to have ordered genocide. So he doesn't, he tosses Harry into the Brier Patch to figure it out, knowing that he will, and that he will move heaven and earth to save his child, and the only way to do that is reversing the generational spell...That's why he is the Merlin, very clever, if Harry fails, well he is out a star born and a Blackstaff, but the gamble is worth it.
I mean yes, I absolutely agree. I just think that if Harry had taken an hour a month to show up to Council meetings, rub a couple shoulders, made a little small-talk, he'd have never had to deal with any of this shit (obviously this would have had to be pre-Changes, since after that he's never had the opportunity to do so).
No amount of glad handing was ever going to cut it... All the younger wizards were for the most part on Harry's side, which politically speaking also makes him a threat to the Merlin.. So they get him the one way they can by kangaroo court when his most powerful allies are indisposed.. Oh and using a significant event to turn one of his closest Warden friends against him.
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... But there is that faction that has never trusted him ever since he came before them as a scared 16 year old kid with a scary amount of talent ...
With 100% of his training being at the hands of a warlock (DuMorne).
With an Outsider involved (and one of the top-tier Outsiders, at that).
Having just killed someone (the selfsame DuMorne) which is an automatic death-sentence. Yes, we know that "self-defense" can be a viable excuse; still...
With a (not currently clear) something that he was "intended" to be/do. Was it DuMorne's bully-boy? Was it the "Starbabe Plan?" Was it a "Destroyer" (per Morgan's Journal; and whatever is a "Destroyer," anyhow?) ?
We don't know what that "something" is; but we do know that it causes tremendous worry for the Senior Council... and must have done so back when Harry was just 16.
There is plenty of very-good reason to distrust Harry.
It's mostly wrong, of course; but the reasons exist, and they are... reasonable.
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With 100% of his training being at the hands of a warlock (DuMorne).
With an Outsider involved (and one of the top-tier Outsiders, at that).
Having just killed someone (the selfsame DuMorne) which is an automatic death-sentence. Yes, we know that "self-defense" can be a viable excuse; still...
With a (not currently clear) something that he was "intended" to be/do. Was it DuMorne's bully-boy? Was it the "Starbabe Plan?" Was it a "Destroyer" (per Morgan's Journal; and whatever is a "Destroyer," anyhow?) ?
We don't know what that "something" is; but we do know that it causes tremendous worry for the Senior Council... and must have done so back when Harry was just 16.
There is plenty of very-good reason to distrust Harry.
It's mostly wrong, of course; but the reasons exist, and they are... reasonable.
Agreed on all of that, and that faction will never trust Harry for all of the above reasons no matter what he did to try and win it.. However as I have pointed out, very good reasons for Harry not to trust the Council. The proof that he was right is how they booted him out of the Council when his supporters were not there on trumped up charges..
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... Michael has one of the weaknesses that all KOTC have- he has to give people the benefit of the doubt, even when they don't deserve it (it's why Murphy didn't make the grade) so him vouching for Harry is a mixed bag, assuming the Council even bothered to notice him, which I doubt ...
He has to, personally, in the things he does. But if asked, he does not have to vouch for someone, doesn't have to ask others to extend the chances he extends.
The Archive -- rather cleverly -- looks to Michael for testimony as to Harry's character, when he seems implicated in the attack on her. The White Council could have done similarly.
I suspect that, once Harry had saved his daughter, the WC would deem Michael's testimony "untrustworthy."
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... No, Langtry tells Harry to sit out of it, forget about the random kidnapped girl (nobody knew it was his daughter) and not fuck up the Council's plan to wipe out the Red Court. The fact that Harry went and wiped out the Red's all by himself anyway probably just made them nervous ...
... Think about it, the White Council's army is depleted, so what counter attack could they use? If the Merlin had a handy dandy spell to wipe out the Red Court root and branch, he would have loosed it by now. So what is about the only way to completely wipe out the Red Court, roots and all, burn the roots and the seed, then salt the earth they fall upon? Why your handy dandy generational spell of course.. What is worth risking the sacrifice of a little girl's life? I bet the Merlin knows all about the connection between little Maggie, Harry, to Eb his Blackstaff, he also knows if anyone is capable of reversing and pulling off the reversal of the generational spell it is Harry, so he will gamble with their lives against wiping out the Red Court for good.. One little catch, the Merlin of the White Court cannot be seen to have ordered genocide. So he doesn't, he tosses Harry into the Brier Patch to figure it out, knowing that he will, and that he will move heaven and earth to save his child, and the only way to do that is reversing the generational spell...That's why he is the Merlin, very clever, if Harry fails, well he is out a star born and a Blackstaff, but the gamble is worth it ...
Yeah, Harry is almost childishly predictable in his opposition to authority.
(I strongly suspect, BTW, that Harry is going to be shocked when he discovers that Arthur Langtry is one of the Grey Council, and fought at Chichen Itza ... :o ;D )
Merlin: "Harry, stay out of this."
Harry: <eyeroll>"Whatever, dude." <promptly ignores the Merlin>
I don't think the Merlin even needs to know about the Maggie/Harry connection, he just needs to know that Harry does the "protect at all costs" thing about children.
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You also bring up Morgan, what happened to Morgan is reason enough for Harry to be less than trusting, especially in the face of the warning vibs that Chandler was sending him. Morgan next to Luccio was one of the most trusted Wardens of the Council, he was their chief executioner. Yet he also fled the Council, not just because he looked guilty, but because he knew they had no interest in any proof of his innocence. In fact though Harry proved Peabody was behind the murder, and who knows how much more damage he did to the Council with his ink, yet the Council, i.e. the Merlin still felt that it was necessary for Morgan to be found responsible for the murder for political reasons. So we saw at the end of Battle Ground, for political reasons the Council trumps up charges that Harry killed "humans" with magic in battle. Though these "humans" were altered by the Fomor and no longer human, thus exspelled him from the Council and put him in effect under a death sentence. Was the angry Carlos acting like a friend when he gave that message to Harry? Did he acknowledge at all that Harry had a huge part in saving all of their bacon? No, he just accused him of becoming a monster and that he should have talked to him...
a different spin....
The Bad Guys are trying to bring down the White Council. They get their claws in Peabody and his inks. But it is not working, at least not fast enough. Peabody does use his ink effectively in one area - he infiltrates the Wardens. To watch the wardens, the Bad Guys assign Harry. Peabody gets the Captain of the Wardens and gives her to Harry. This gives Harry insight and info into the wardens.
Plan not moving well enough, they have Luccio and her former apprentice go whack LaFortier. This will open a spot for their man Christos. Morgan gets the more-important-to-the-WC-hierarchy Luccio out, and runs to his ally Dresden to hide him. The Bad guys say Peabody isn't getting it done, and is a complication - what if someone detects the ink? They tell Harry to reveal him. Peabody runs, the WC dispatches Harry to get him. Harry knows he will have backup coming. Peabody can't be taken alive, he knows too much. Morgan runs too, seeing a chance to escape with his cronies. Morgan knows Peabody's cover is blown. He's a liability. Peabody can give Morgan up. Morgan takes him out. Morgan succumbs to his wounds. Harry cuts himself with the dagger, knowing help will be here soon, and comes up with the fight story. The traitor Peabody is dead. Morgan, the only one known to be with LaF at the killing, also is dead. Morgan and Peabody can't give him away. Loose ends tied up. They even send Christos to the battle of Chicago, in case Harry falls, to ensure the superweapons are recovered.
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The Bad Guys are trying to bring down the White Council. They get their claws in Peabody and his inks. But it is not working, at least not fast enough. Peabody does use his ink effectively in one area - he infiltrates the Wardens...
au contraire.
Peabody and his inks are their claws.
And they are very effective indeed -- they kept the WC neutered for years.
They kept old-guard/reactionary Morgan on Harry's case for a decade or so, ensuring nobody else (who might be able to teach him about the Starborn biz, or orient him to some of the political & supernatural currents swirling about him) would touch him with a 10' pole.
They kept the Merlin & his faction playing "ultra-conservative & risk-averse," and bickering with the Blackstaff & others who argued for a more-activist Rampire campaign; remember, Maggie LaFey's death-curse is part of why the Whamps were so ineffective... Peabody did the same to the White Council.
Pretty good payback from 1 embedded agent ...
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au contraire.
Peabody and his inks are their claws.
And they are very effective indeed -- they kept the WC neutered for years.
They kept old-guard/reactionary Morgan on Harry's case for a decade or so, ensuring nobody else (who might be able to teach him about the Starborn biz, or orient him to some of the political & supernatural currents swirling about him) would touch him with a 10' pole.
They kept the Merlin & his faction playing "ultra-conservative & risk-averse," and bickering with the Blackstaff & others who argued for a more-activist Rampire campaign; remember, Maggie LaFey's death-curse is part of why the Whamps were so ineffective... Peabody did the same to the White Council.
Pretty good payback from 1 embedded agent ...
I'm pretty sure that what he's implying is that, to a suspicious mind with incomplete information, Harry could just as easily be taken as a Black Council member himself.
Who is the one Warden that isn't influenced by Peabody? Dresden. Who was Luccio brainwashed into starting a relationship with? Dresden. Where does the "Traitor" Morgan go for help when he's caught for killing LaFortier? Dresden. etc, etc.
Rashid even points this out when he confronts Harry at Demonreach in Turn Coat.
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I'm pretty sure that what he's implying is that, to a suspicious mind with incomplete information, Harry could just as easily be taken as a Black Council member himself.
Who is the one Warden that isn't influenced by Peabody? Dresden. Who was Luccio brainwashed into starting a relationship with? Dresden. Where does the "Traitor" Morgan go for help when he's caught for killing LaFortier? Dresden. etc, etc.
Rashid even points this out when he confronts Harry at Demonreach in Turn Coat.
I'm saying it can be spun that Harry IS another Black Council agent. On the surface facts can be cited that can support that, or at least not contradict it.
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Harry is suspicious as hell in Peace Talks. He’s lying to everyone, and not very well. Carlos had every right to be suspicious, because Harry was acting suspicious, and Carlos still came to him as a friend first. Carlos even voted to keep Harry on the White Council, despite the fact that Harry was being incredibly suspicious.
People put a lot of emphasis on Harry being friends with the Knights Of The Cross, but 99% of the White Council doesn’t know Michael Carpenter. Carlos can think Michael is a good guy but that doesn’t mean Harry isn’t lying and keeping secrets. Hell Carlos thinks Harry is a good guy, as evidenced by everything he’s done up to and including Peace Talks, and the fist bump after the cemetery in Battle Ground. But Harry keeps lying to Carlos and isolating himself, until he stops looking shady and starts looking guilty. And even then, Carlos comes to tell Harry that he’s been kicked off the White Council for breaking the first law of magic and killing human servitors. That’s not even Carlos breaking Harry’s trust, that’s Harry breaking the first law of magic - a death sentence - and then being excommunicated for it. Harry burned the Carlos friendship bridge as often as he could in PT and yeah, he damn sure should’ve trusted Carlos. Or at least been less shady.
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Harry is suspicious as hell in Peace Talks. He’s lying to everyone, and not very well. Carlos had every right to be suspicious, because Harry was acting suspicious, and Carlos still came to him as a friend first. Carlos even voted to keep Harry on the White Council, despite the fact that Harry was being incredibly suspicious.
People put a lot of emphasis on Harry being friends with the Knights Of The Cross, but 99% of the White Council doesn’t know Michael Carpenter. Carlos can think Michael is a good guy but that doesn’t mean Harry isn’t lying and keeping secrets. Hell Carlos thinks Harry is a good guy, as evidenced by everything he’s done up to and including Peace Talks, and the fist bump after the cemetery in Battle Ground. But Harry keeps lying to Carlos and isolating himself, until he stops looking shady and starts looking guilty. And even then, Carlos comes to tell Harry that he’s been kicked off the White Council for breaking the first law of magic and killing human servitors. That’s not even Carlos breaking Harry’s trust, that’s Harry breaking the first law of magic - a death sentence - and then being excommunicated for it. Harry burned the Carlos friendship bridge as often as he could in PT and yeah, he damn sure should’ve trusted Carlos. Or at least been less shady.
First of all, 99% of the Council do know who the Holy Knights are.. You will remember at the end of Proven Guilty at the end of Molly's trial when Michael comes in with the missing Senior Council members that he had just help save in a skirmish with the Red Court. Second of all the Fomor "human" servitors, were no longer human. The Council had to alter their pronouncement of the death penalty for breaking the First Law, because if any of them were at the battle, they broke it too.. Maybe Harry should have not heeded Chandler's warning that they weren't there as friends.
Maybe if Ramirez had come to him alone instead of in force, stated how it looked then asked him to talk with him.. Harry might have done that, but that isn't how it came down.. Also no way is Harry responsible for what happened with the Black Court.. Oh, and Harry managed to put Ethinu away, and attempted to smooth things between the natural and the supernatural worlds at the Accords meeting, where was the White Council?