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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: huangjimmy108 on October 01, 2020, 07:17:32 AM
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Original title “ Battle Ground spoilers: Harry and Lara new pairing. What do you think?”
Edited for spoiler in title
-Serack
Well, Murphy is gone now, so the seat for main love interest for our favorite protagonist Harry Dresden is now open.
Previously I thought it is unlikely for Murphy to die unless JB decided to keep Harry a miserable single dog for eternity. The time he recovers from losing Susan and start looking for new love again is about 5 years give or take. Now Harry is older, more jaited, and burden with greater and greater responsibility. With Murphy gone, the new wound upon the old ones, In my opinion, it is unlikely for the current Harry to think about his love life, not if we assume that the series would only last for about 5 or 6 books more which translate to about 5 or 6 years DV timeline, assuming JB still use one year gap for each book.
Mab's demand for a political marriage between Harry and Lara however cleverly solve this problem though. It forcres Harry to think about his marriage, something Harry can't possibly take likely since it would mean the step mother for little Maggi.
What do you guys think?
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For another thing, Who do you think could replace Murphy as Harry main action partner? I mean, would Harry start going solo now. Like it or not, Murphy is indeed Harry's partner of choice for most things. Could Lara take this role? I have a hard time thinking about a character suited for this role myself.
Thomas is out. Butters is a KoTC now and has his own responsibility. The white council is now enemies. Could Elaine come back and take this role? It would be awesome, but it would tell the White council loud and clear that Elaine is no small practicianer.
What do you think?
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Mister, Kincaid, or Fix... ;D
If Harry doesn't go solo, which I think would be viable, as he really needs to spend time beefing up his magical arsenal, going solo would guarantee he makes a whole bunch of foci/trinkets, then whomever he pairs up with has to be competent. The pool of people to stand next to him, reliably, is now practically zero... So imo, he's either gonna go solo and arm himself to the teeth, or he will have to find some sort of frenemy to pair with.
As for Lara, I don't see a love happening there. Lara will probably be called in to help from time to time, but it will still be limited to situations where her responsibilities make it necessary. She is a vampire after all, and loyal to herself...
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Well, Murphy is gone now, so the seat for main love interest for our favorite protagonist Harry Dresden is now open.
Previously I thought it is unlikely for Murphy to die unless JB decided to keep Harry a miserable single dog for eternity. The time he recovers from losing Susan and start looking for new love again is about 5 years give or take. Now Harry is older, more jaited, and burden with greater and greater responsibility. With Murphy gone, the new wound upon the old ones, In my opinion, it is unlikely for the current Harry to think about his love life, not if we assume that the series would only last for about 5 or 6 books more which translate to about 5 or 6 years DV timeline, assuming JB still use one year gap for each book.
Mab's demand for a political marriage between Harry and Lara however cleverly solve this problem though. It forcres Harry to think about his marriage, something Harry can't possibly take likely since it would mean the step mother for little Maggi.
What do you guys think?
It completely depends on how Mab, Lara and Harry (and ultimately Jim) are going to interpret a political marriage. I do not think Lara gets the right to feed upon Harry for example but the Sidhe can have strange loopholes. Read the contract and let Molly read the contract.
But it can be a marriage in name only with not even a mention in mortal paperwork while Harry lives with a nice werewolf or it can be a millstone around the neck. Or everything in between.
Assuming it even goes through. A lot can happen in a year.
But it probably will happen in some form. It offers endless complications for Harry.
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I wonder if there's a way for Lara to feed directly on the Winter Mantle -- I'm imagining something like the kiss at the end of White Night. Her power raises emotions in Harry for him to draw on to strengthen his magic, while she feeds on Winter, supercharging her Hunger's power.
I also wonder if there aren't ways they could help each other with the *costs* of their power. Could Lara feeding on the Mantle weaken its influence over Harry? Could feeding on the cold of Winter somehow weaken the influence of the Hunger over Lara?
Are there other aspects to the betrothal agreement -- is Mab contributing something else to the pot?
What will Lea have to say about all of this? -- She's still got an obligation to look after Harry.
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I wonder if there's a way for Lara to feed directly on the Winter Mantle -- I'm imagining something like the kiss at the end of White Night. Her power raises emotions in Harry for him to draw on to strengthen his magic, while she feeds on Winter, supercharging her Hunger's power.
I also wonder if there aren't ways they could help each other with the *costs* of their power. Could Lara feeding on the Mantle weaken its influence over Harry? Could feeding on the cold of Winter somehow weaken the influence of the Hunger over Lara?
Are there other aspects to the betrothal agreement -- is Mab contributing something else to the pot?
Mab will write the contract so nothing that reflects bad on her or winter like Lara feeding on her knight.
What will Lea have to say about all of this? -- She's still got an obligation to look after Harry.
Harry can ask Lea for guidance and those are always interesting scenes but Harry has to take the initiative. I do not think Lea is against it perse if it gives Harry more power but she can detect loopholes. Molly will be on it as well and she knows everything about winter law.
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[Completely silly mode engaged]
Nah, you see, this is really a plot to get Lara killed, because Mab wants to eliminate any competition before she makes her own play.
First she used her Proxy Lea to arrange for Susan to get caught up with the Red Court in Book 3, Then in Book 4 Mab shows up to introduce herself and save Harry's Bacon to catch his interest, This sadly didn't work.
Moreover, a year later Susan turned up in town again and hooked up with Harry, even getting with Child, thus sealing her fate- she was a threat again, so Mab arranged for the Red Court to be sacrificed to kill Susan and get her out of the way for good. She also arranged for the attack on the Raith deeps in order to get rid of Lash, who was becoming another major threat.
Once she has forced Harry to come to her in changes she thought she could try winning him by helping nurse him back to health, but somehow that backfired and he seemed to be getting along with Sarissa instead! This forced her to adjust her plans, and she arranged for the death of Maeve and Lily to get Sarissa and Molly out of the running, only for Harry to hook up with Murphy instead, thus forcing the events of Skin Game to try and get her killed, and latter Peace Talks/Battle Ground when Nick failed to kill her.
Now, seeing Harry and Lara getting along so well, she's going to try and force them into something, knowing that Harry will chafe at it and oppose the match on principle, and Eb will probably kill her if he doesn't.
Don't give up Mab! We believe in you!
Truly, the Dresden Files was a tragic love comedy all along.
[end completely silly mode]
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It completely depends on how Mab, Lara and Harry (and ultimately Jim) are going to interpret a political marriage. I do not think Lara gets the right to feed upon Harry for example but the Sidhe can have strange loopholes. Read the contract and let Molly read the contract.
But it can be a marriage in name only with not even a mention in mortal paperwork while Harry lives with a nice werewolf or it can be a millstone around the neck. Or everything in between.
Assuming it even goes through. A lot can happen in a year.
But it probably will happen in some form. It offers endless complications for Harry.
It can't be just in name. I remember Mab mentioning about passing of bloodline or something like that at the end of Battle Ground. It means that Lara and Harry have to begot a progeny.
There is no escaping it and Harry's usual means of coping aka just ignore it for later isn't working, Mab only grant a year no more no less.
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The way I read the scene in the castle is Mab sinking her claws into Harry, Molly, and now Lara even deeper.
Molly is upset that now even another woman gets to have Harry and she literally can't.
Lara was showing Molls that she is sorry that this is happening, and it wasn't her plan for it. I think, like Thomas was seeing something between Harry and Murphy, Lara knows Molly's true feelings for Harry and knows something is there between them.
Mab is closing down gates of escape for them, ensuring Harry's servitude for as long as he lives.
Paring that will happen at the end of the series, Harry and Molly. Because as Harry said to Eb about getting out of Winter, "Not without Molly."
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It can't be just in name. I remember Mab mentioning about passing of bloodline or something like that at the end of Battle Ground. It means that Lara and Harry have to begot a progeny.
There is no escaping it and Harry's usual means of coping aka just ignore it for later isn't working, Mab only grant a year no more no less.
I think Jim said something about no more children for Harry and as long as he keeps Murphy’s protection Lara can try but I don’t think she will like it.
And she can not run to Mab with it. She does not like lack of self control.
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That said, I suspect that "Marrying another woman" might break True Love protection just the same as sex without love would.
After all, those kinds of vows are a Big Deal where magic is involved, and especially when Mab would probably be the one officiating the ceremony for such an important Political Match.
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That said, I suspect that "Marrying another woman" might break True Love protection just the same as sex without love would.
After all, those kinds of vows are a Big Deal where magic is involved, and especially when Mab would probably be the one officiating the ceremony for such an important Political Match.
That's a good point. After reading the short about Will and Georgia's wedding, what will a wedding do to Harry?
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My vote goes to Gard, I liked how they have worked together in the past. I think a pairing with Lara has too many complications.
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My vote goes to Gard, I liked how they have worked together in the past. I think a pairing with Lara has too many complications.
You have to get pass Mab for that. The Monarch has ordered her vassal and arrange his marriage. This is state affair not personal affair.
Only a few things come to mind if Lara and Harry pairing can be broken without challenging Mab's sovereignty:
1. Mab is dead, which is a major bad news.
2. Harry manage to find another pairing which is more politically advantageous to winter's interest and satisfy Mab.
3. Harry increase his own personal power and value to Mab and the winter court until the point that Mab can't ignore his will, and he has to do it within a year.
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You have to get pass Mab for that. The Monarch has ordered her vassal and arrange his marriage. This is state affair not personal affair.
Only a few things come to mind if Lara and Harry pairing can be broken without challenging Mab's sovereignty:
1. Mab is dead, which is a major bad news.
2. Harry manage to find another pairing which is more politically advantageous to winter's interest and satisfy Mab.
3. Harry increase his own personal power and value to Mab and the winter court until the point that Mab can't ignore his will, and he has to do it within a year.
Harry marries with Lara and lives with Gard.
As long as it is lowkey Mab wouldn't mind. Giving Lara's habits she might call it symmetry. And for that reason Lara wouldn't mind either, if she wants to be a proper vampire.
The only question is: Would Gard go for that?
I thing Gard likes Harry and respects him but I do not think she sees him as a potential lover. Freydis however.....
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I strongly dislike it. Lara is on Harry’s “lesser evil” punch list. Making her his romantic partner contradicts that and undermines her “evil” view of Humanity as herd animals for the use of the White Court.
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Harry marries with Lara and lives with Gard.
As long as it is lowkey Mab wouldn't mind. Giving Lara's habits she might call it symmetry. And for that reason Lara wouldn't mind either, if she wants to be a proper vampire.
The only question is: Would Gard go for that?
I thing Gard likes Harry and respects him but I do not think she sees him as a potential lover. Freydis however.....
Freydis saw Murphy as a potential lover, not Harry. I don't know in Heorot Gard gave Harry a very sweet lingering kiss on the lips in answer to his question about Valkyries being virgins. I think Lara would be a total disaster, and if she is being put forward because Thomas is out of the picture for a while I think that is a huge mistake. Unless she falls so deeply in love with him it burns out her Hunger, but that didn't happen in the case of Thomas, so unlikely. But yeah, they have some things in common but their species view of things do not match at all.
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I strongly dislike it. Lara is on Harry’s “lesser evil” punch list. Making her his romantic partner contradicts that and undermines her “evil” view of Humanity as herd animals for the use of the White Court.
Whatever partnership they will or will not have it won't be romantic.
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Whatever partnership they will or will not have it won't be romantic.
Not at all, but the sex may be great.. ::) However I cannot see Harry allowing Lara to feed on him. Not even a nibble, and as far as that goes, I cannot see Lara holding back from feeding either.
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Freydis saw Murphy as a potential lover, not Harry. I don't know in Heorot Gard gave Harry a very sweet lingering kiss on the lips in answer to his question about Valkyries being virgins. I think Lara would be a total disaster, and if she is being put forward because Thomas is out of the picture for a while I think that is a huge mistake. Unless she falls so deeply in love with him it burns out her Hunger, but that didn't happen in the case of Thomas, so unlikely. But yeah, they have some things in common but their species view of things do not match at all.
This is Mab's idea and in her view an alliance between winter and the white court will help a lot when she has to concentrate on the gates and it will also strengthen Harry's position and make him less vulnerable for the white council.
She might underestimate how much Eb runs on emotion and not on ratio.
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Not at all, but the sex may be great.. ::) However I cannot see Harry allowing Lara to feed on him. Not even a nibble, and as far as that goes, I cannot see Lara holding back from feeding either.
I can not see Mab allowing it either. An alliance with a marriage is one thing. An alliance with Mab providing livestock for Lara is something else.
But they can try IVF ;D
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This is Mab's idea and in her view an alliance between winter and the white court will help a lot when she has to concentrate on the gates and it will also strengthen Harry's position and make him less vulnerable for the white council.
She might underestimate how much Eb runs on emotion and not on ratio.
Next Microfiction: Eb receiving his wedding invitation.
I can not see Mab allowing it either. An alliance with a marriage is one thing. An alliance with Mab providing livestock for Lara is something else.
Mab is the oldest of the old school, I can't see her letting Harry get away with not... ahem "making it official", but no, I don't think she'd let Lara just eat Harry either.
Doing so would be very bad for this alliance Lara wants after all.
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Mab's little allegory about Goldilocks and the porridge, from the start of Peace Talks, makes more sense now that we know what Lara's first request was.
I'd still love to know what Lara did to earn those favors.
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I think it is a huge mistake on Mab's part. 1] Further isolate Harry from the White Council, something Eb was afraid of. And guarantee they would try to execute him, and aren't they members of the Accords also? Or is something else a foot because no representatives were present at the first summit post battle. There are already close ties to the White Court so what is the point of a marriage? And does she think she can really prevent Lara from using Harry as her personal sippy cup?
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I mean I don't know that Mab's particularly concerned with the White Council's opinion at this point, in particular when they did piss-all to help out in the Battle and then voted to boot Harry in spite of what he just did.
In addition, this makes Harry less vulnerable to the White Council's retaliation, because it makes him a key part of an official alliance between the White Court and the Winter Court, meaning that if they decide to axe him for jaywalking like they obviously want to, they have to weigh that against the risks of fighting the White Court (as well as the Winter Court), since he's now become an important part of Lara's power structure.
As far as Lara eating him is concerned, she's probably not to bothered since Lara killing him outright would be a bad move in this case (yeah, just murder a high ranking member of Mab's court under the pretense of an alliance Lara, see what happens) and if Harry lets himself get thralled he probably isn't worth the effort anyway.
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I mean I don't know that Mab's particularly concerned with the White Council's opinion at this point, in particular when they did piss-all to help out in the Battle and then voted to boot Harry in spite of what he just did.
In addition, this makes Harry less vulnerable to the White Council's retaliation, because it makes him a key part of an official alliance between the White Court and the Winter Court.
So if they decide to axe him for jaywalking like they obviously want to, they have to weigh that against the risks of fighting the White Court, since he's now become an important part of Lara's power structure.
They don’t worry that much about the white court. It is winter that is worrying them. Except for the gatekeeper of course, he knows what is going on.
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They don’t worry that much about the white court. It is winter that is worrying them. Except for the gatekeeper of course, he knows what is going on.
I mean yeah, but it's like, they're already committed to fighting the Formor, do you think they want to risk Mab, and the Whites (who, like the Reds can fight the Council on fairly even terms all told) and whatever else Harry can pull out of his ass? It's just another factor of "this guy is more trouble then he's worth"
The fact that it also isolates Harry from the White Council and will likely force him to compromise himself even more is probably a nice benefit though (from Mab's PoV).
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I think this is Jim and he loves to punish Harry. So I can see Harry and Lara getting together on occasion and then 2 or 3 books down the line they touch casually and burn each other.
Trouble with each other as they realize they have slowly spiraled together. Trouble with Eb when he finds out it's no longer a Marriage in Name only. Trouble with a White Court Rebellion. And finally big time Trouble with Molly.
That's enough for it's own book right there but you know this will all play out while dealing with some major threat, like getting the Walker out of Justine or ooohh even better , the child.
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I think this is Jim and he loves to punish Harry. So I can see Harry and Lara getting together on occasion and then 2 or 3 books down the line they touch casually and burn each other.
Trouble with each other as they realize they have slowly spiraled together. Trouble with Eb when he finds out it's no longer a Marriage in Name only. Trouble with a White Court Rebellion. And finally big time Trouble with Molly.
That's enough for it's own book right there but you know this will all play out while dealing with some major threat, like getting the Walker out of Justine or ooohh even better , the child.
First, how would they burn each other? Harry's not a Wamp.
Second, interesting idea about the child. Bind the Walker to the child where it can't do anything. Have the demon feed on the Walker.
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First, how would they burn each other? Harry's not a Wamp.
Harry will burn her unless he gets another lover between now and then. True love's protection with Murphy can last for years.
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Harry will burn her unless he gets another lover between now and then. True love's protection with Murphy can last for years.
It is about each other. Lara will burn, Harry won't
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I think this is Jim and he loves to punish Harry. So I can see Harry and Lara getting together on occasion and then 2 or 3 books down the line they touch casually and burn each other.
Trouble with each other as they realize they have slowly spiraled together. Trouble with Eb when he finds out it's no longer a Marriage in Name only. Trouble with a White Court Rebellion. And finally big time Trouble with Molly.
That's enough for it's own book right there but you know this will all play out while dealing with some major threat, like getting the Walker out of Justine or ooohh even better , the child.
This matches my thinking as well. "What's going to happen? That's easy: what is going to torture Harry the most."
Plus, as I've said elsewhere, Lara is my very favorite monster, and I love the idea of seeing what happens when Thomas comes out of the box to discover that his half-sister and half-brother have gotten married for the inevitable LOLs and WTFs that would ensue.
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I've thought this. I've also though the wedding ring that gave Lara her scar- the one that induces Thomas to trust her about Justine- is Lara's own wedding ring.
We know:
1) She was once married
2) She used this name as her "professional" name
3) She's a few centuries old, and back then pre-marriage tomfoolery was not acceptable in upper crust families
4) Raith entrapped his children by not telling them of their fate until their fatal first feeding
So, posit: She killed her husband first-feeding style on their wedding night and because he loved her he didn't fight it.
Further posit: This is the spark that preserved independence from her father compared to her siblings/sisters. She hates him for this still.
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I've thought this. I've also though the wedding ring that gave Lara her scar- the one that induces Thomas to trust her about Justine- is Lara's own wedding ring.
We know:
1) She was once married
2) She used this name as her "professional" name
3) She's a few centuries old, and back then pre-marriage tomfoolery was not acceptable in upper crust families
4) Raith entrapped his children by not telling them of their fate until their fatal first feeding
So, posit: She killed her husband first-feeding style on their wedding night and because he loved her he didn't fight it.
Further posit: This is the spark that preserved independence from her father compared to her siblings/sisters. She hates him for this still.
I really like this theory, though I am certainly biased because Lara is my very favorite monster in the series (though Nicodemus is a very close #2.)
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I wonder if there's a way for Lara to feed directly on the Winter Mantle -- I'm imagining something like the kiss at the end of White Night. Her power raises emotions in Harry for him to draw on to strengthen his magic, while she feeds on Winter, supercharging her Hunger's power.
In one of the interviews, Jim mentioned that Thomas could feed on Fae but would eat false emotion which would be the same as a normal human eating Fae food in the Nevernever, which would turn him into the monster as soon he returned to the real world. I wonder if the same would apply to the Winter Knight mantle? So if Lara did feed on it, she'd go bonkers.
Though ... didn't Mab explicitly tell her (Lara) not to feed on her Knight?
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In regards to the OP, I think Harry has outgrown needing a routine sidekick. He'll probably be alone during Mirror Mirror and with whoever is an ally over there, he'll probably get a new episodic sidekick for each new book for a couple more books, and then it'll be the BAT, and everyone will be everywhere.
I'm just sorry to hear of Lara's passing.
I mean, let's face it, Harry's relationships are 50/50 death/traumatic survival. Either Lara croaks, or she loses her power at the table and becomes a shell of what she was.
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He needs one from a literary perspective to prompt exposition.
Course, Bob may be back. Full circle to Storm Front.
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He needs one from a literary perspective to prompt exposition.
Course, Bob may be back. Full circle to Storm Front.
Sure, but it doesn't have to be a routine/repeating sidekick like Murphy was. It'll be one-offs that further expand his retinue. He can have a mirror friend, and Librarian friend, and a wrestling friend, and whatever else until we're at the BAT and then everyone is a sidekick.
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Sound like a really weird dirty Oscar Wilde reference there. I assume these friends are all...special
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Sure, but it doesn't have to be a routine/repeating sidekick like Murphy was. It'll be one-offs that further expand his retinue. He can have a mirror friend, and Librarian friend, and a wrestling friend, and whatever else until we're at the BAT and then everyone is a sidekick.
Maybe....
But I see this happening more likely.
MM will be one last ride with Murphy, so he can properly say goodbye. Complete with lines like "get on the bike, bitch."
But after that, we may have more Harry/Molly team ups. Mab said herself that the Knight and Lady will be working closely together back in CD, and yet we haven't seen that yet. And it's not like Harry's dealing in mortal deals anymore.
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Lara is actually one of my favorite monsters too and one I like to see Harry frenemies with.
For her to ask permission to court him (not marry specifically, that was Mab) is interesting to me. Lara does things for the White Court and for her power base and this would be that kind of arrangement for sure.
But we still don't see the whole picture here.
and I still ultimately hope to see Harry/Molly - I get that he knew her as a kid and right now that's gross, but time passes and they are long-lived as wizards...time changes things, not to mention battling unspeakable things side by side together.
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For her to ask permission to court him (not marry specifically, that was Mab) is interesting to me. Lara does things for the White Court and for her power base and this would be that kind of arrangement for sure.
That was the thing that most interested me as well.
and I still ultimately hope to see Harry/Molly - I get that he knew her as a kid and right now that's gross, but time passes and they are long-lived as wizards...time changes things, not to mention battling unspeakable things side by side together.
Yeah, I'm definitely in the "ewwwwww" camp. I see your point regarding time passing and all that, but it just icks me out. YMMV. :)
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and I still ultimately hope to see Harry/Molly - I get that he knew her as a kid and right now that's gross, but time passes and they are long-lived as wizards...time changes things, not to mention battling unspeakable things side by side together.
For that Mab needs to die first.
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Maybe....
But I see this happening more likely.
MM will be one last ride with Murphy, so he can properly say goodbye. Complete with lines like "get on the bike, bitch."
But after that, we may have more Harry/Molly team ups. Mab said herself that the Knight and Lady will be working closely together back in CD, and yet we haven't seen that yet. And it's not like Harry's dealing in mortal deals anymore.
I think Molly is a bit too big to be Harry's sidekick that he explains things to. She knows more about things than he does now. Even if she doesn't know she does, ya know?
As for mortal deals and whatnot, I think we might see him dealing with mortals a lot, now that the mortals are going to be involved in the supernatural world to some degree or another.
We might see a Librarian assigned to Harry from the National Archives. Presumably a wholesome, well-rounded young woman with horn-rimmed glasses and big doe eyes and long blinking eyelashes that will make him think of Sheila. And together they'll research something to stop the book 20 or 21 big bad.
Or maybe we'll meet a grizzled military special forces agent who's assigned to tail Harry on behalf of the mortal authorities, who's skepticism will remind Harry of Murphy and who's suspicion will remind Harry of Morgan, who will ultimately prove himself to be a competent liaison between the BFS and the military. And together they'll deal with demigods-turned-wrestlers.
Lara is actually one of my favorite monsters too and one I like to see Harry frenemies with.
For her to ask permission to court him (not marry specifically, that was Mab) is interesting to me. Lara does things for the White Court and for her power base and this would be that kind of arrangement for sure.
But we still don't see the whole picture here.
and I still ultimately hope to see Harry/Molly - I get that he knew her as a kid and right now that's gross, but time passes and they are long-lived as wizards...time changes things, not to mention battling unspeakable things side by side together.
One thing I came away from PT thinking was that Butcher had changed his tune on Lara. He seemed to be going out of his way to make her more appealing to Harry, as well as make her his equal in some respects. I was baffled at how weak she was at the end of PT, and now I'm baffled that she was that strong at the start of BG after being that weak at the end of PT. I mean, I think her power levels in BG were appropriate, but still...
Anyway, she seems to be genuinely Interested in Harry. I wouldn't call it True Love or anything like that, but I think she respects him and his power and she likes the way he looks. But I'm not sure Lara even asked Mab to date Harry. She might not have been thinking of Harry at all. Mab said Lara "desired a binding alliance with Winter." Lara is modern-thinking enough to not necessarily think that a marriage is the way to accomplish that. And it wouldn't surprise me if we end up seeing her express that in a later book, where she admits that she's not opposed to the idea out of hand, but that it wasn't her intention. It'd go a long ways to making Harry more accepting of her role in the arrangement.
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She needed to feed at the end of PT. Badly.
And if it comes to it, a White Court vamp can probably recklessly pop an ampethamine or thirty and not worry about health risks.
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She needed to feed at the end of PT. Badly.
And if it comes to it, a White Court vamp can probably recklessly pop an ampethamine or thirty and not worry about health risks.
That's my point. At the end of PT, she was exhausted and needed to eat. She was on the boat with three humans, none of whom she seemed to have fed on by the start of BG, where she's suddenly got enough power to wrestle krakens single-handedly. What the what?
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Freydis was little help with the kraken, comparatively. As an immortal, she'd have a lot of juju.
EDIT: Also, she was healing slowly- for her- from the pucker marks. She had time to dress and they were still there. So her tank was still on the low side.
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One thing I came away from PT thinking was that Butcher had changed his tune on Lara. He seemed to be going out of his way to make her more appealing to Harry, as well as make her his equal in some respects. I was baffled at how weak she was at the end of PT, and now I'm baffled that she was that strong at the start of BG after being that weak at the end of PT. I mean, I think her power levels in BG were appropriate, but still...
Anyway, she seems to be genuinely Interested in Harry. I wouldn't call it True Love or anything like that, but I think she respects him and his power and she likes the way he looks. But I'm not sure Lara even asked Mab to date Harry. She might not have been thinking of Harry at all. Mab said Lara "desired a binding alliance with Winter." Lara is modern-thinking enough to not necessarily think that a marriage is the way to accomplish that. And it wouldn't surprise me if we end up seeing her express that in a later book, where she admits that she's not opposed to the idea out of hand, but that it wasn't her intention. It'd go a long ways to making Harry more accepting of her role in the arrangement.
I noticed that as well and wondered if he'd changed his mind or if maybe the Mantle was altering Harry's perceptions slightly so she didn't quite come across as big of a monster or if she was actively trying to alter his perceptions (predicated on the latter revelation that she's trying to ally with Winter.)
Hmm. I know Carlos has soul-gazed Lara but I don't think Harry has. I could see him making that a requirement of the marriage so he knows how big of a monster she actually is...
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I noticed that as well and wondered if he'd changed his mind or if maybe the Mantle was altering Harry's perceptions slightly so she didn't quite come across as big of a monster or if she was actively trying to alter his perceptions (predicated on the latter revelation that she's trying to ally with Winter.)
Hmm. I know Carlos has soul-gazed Lara but I don't think Harry has. I could see him making that a requirement of the marriage so he knows how big of a monster she actually is...
True. I could also see Harry's perception of her changing because she's just flat-out not as scary as she once was. He was a human who was susceptible to her power before. Now, with the mantle and the threat of Mab's offense, Lara just isn't going to risk whammying him, so he's unconsciously letting his guard down around her.
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He used to fear and respect her.
Now he just respects her.
I think it's less a matter of him becoming comfortable with her- Eb's fear- and more a matter of compared to monsters like Mab, she's pretty human- and he's becoming a bit monstrous himself.
I also think she's been backing off on the seduction mojo with him because it didn't work and he's gotten dangerous (if the Winter Knight gets too excited, the result might be violence). Which has been letting him see the pretty girl with the bold and clever plans more, which is absolutely one of his turn-ons.
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True. I could also see Harry's perception of her changing because she's just flat-out not as scary as she once was. He was a human who was susceptible to her power before. Now, with the mantle and the threat of Mab's offense, Lara just isn't going to risk whammying him, so he's unconsciously letting his guard down around her.
But he was also unconsciously protecting himself against her. Lara was furious in peace talks about it but he didn't even recognize it.
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It can't be just in name. I remember Mab mentioning about passing of bloodline or something like that at the end of Battle Ground. It means that Lara and Harry have to begot a progeny.
As Thomas said though, procreation is very rare for Whamps. Mab can't be banking too hard on the alliance being founded on an actual child being born of the political marriage, because that might not happen for decades even if they were being intimate.
I kind of like this development, though. I don't see either of them actually developing feelings for the other - I doubt Harry will ever exactly forget watching her get off on disemboweling her cousin, and while Lara would happily jump on sleeping with Harry to manipulate him if it was her own idea, I don't see her either doing feelings or being entirely OK with the idea of Mab choosing her partners for her.
But she's hell on wheels as an ally, and they have a mutual project to save Thomas & Justine. I wouldn't mind seeing the dynamic of holding up a partnership while they're trying to hide from Mab that they aren't actually intimate get kicked around for a while.
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But she's hell on wheels as an ally, and they have a mutual project to save Thomas & Justine. I wouldn't mind seeing the dynamic of holding up a partnership while they're trying to hide from Mab that they aren't actually intimate get kicked around for a while.
While simultaneously trying to convince the Blackstaff that they're not involved at all. Ideally, at the same time. Whacky hijinks ensue.
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Has Jim confirmed no more children for Harry?
He's had two with three paramours.
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True. I could also see Harry's perception of her changing because she's just flat-out not as scary as she once was. He was a human who was susceptible to her power before. Now, with the mantle and the threat of Mab's offense, Lara just isn't going to risk whammying him, so he's unconsciously letting his guard down around her.
Based on PT, it sounds like Lara might not be able to consciously resist feeding if they get intimate. I'm thinking this is a ploy by Mab to get Harry to do something else by throwing this obstacle in the way.
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Yeah, I'm definitely in the "ewwwwww" camp. I see your point regarding time passing and all that, but it just icks me out. YMMV. :)
Honestly, I was never in the 'ewww' camp. But I get the perspective that comes from. but as I said, time can change things between people, so can having to face those horrors they are facing. Soemtimes you get to a point you can only relate and open up with someone who has tread those same dark paths. Winter is definitely a dark path.
But it also depends on how it is all handled too. To be honest and blunt, I'm not sure Butcher would handle it very well anyway...he doesn't tend to write relationships very well from anything of his I have read.
One thing I came away from PT thinking was that Butcher had changed his tune on Lara. He seemed to be going out of his way to make her more appealing to Harry, as well as make her his equal in some respects. I was baffled at how weak she was at the end of PT, and now I'm baffled that she was that strong at the start of BG after being that weak at the end of PT. I mean, I think her power levels in BG were appropriate, but still...
Anyway, she seems to be genuinely Interested in Harry. I wouldn't call it True Love or anything like that, but I think she respects him and his power and she likes the way he looks. But I'm not sure Lara even asked Mab to date Harry. She might not have been thinking of Harry at all. Mab said Lara "desired a binding alliance with Winter." Lara is modern-thinking enough to not necessarily think that a marriage is the way to accomplish that. And it wouldn't surprise me if we end up seeing her express that in a later book, where she admits that she's not opposed to the idea out of hand, but that it wasn't her intention. It'd go a long ways to making Harry more accepting of her role in the arrangement.
Right, but you notice the tension between Lara and Molly? and Mab did specifically mention 'courting' her Knight. That makes me think she mentioned Harry specifically. But maybe she didn't. Maybe that is just how Mab interpreted things...with Mab it's difficult to know.
I think your right though, I think Butcher has changed his mind about Lara. I'm not opposed to their match or marriage. I honestly think that Harry needs a staunch ally with a lot of money and some political power. I think that for him to survive and thrive without the WC behind him, he's going to need someone like Lara for this phase in his life.
He's got his lab back, but now he needs money so he can repair and re-stock it. It's in Lara's best interest for him to be at his magical best. It's not a love thing, but it's a useful thing for sure and that is what a lot of marriages in medieval times were made for.
The truth of the matter is, Mab has Harry's back. She downplays it and Harry isn't aware of it, but you can see that through her words and actions. She cuts Harry a lot of slack she'd never cut anyone else, not only because he is useful to her and his plans, but because she is actually fond of him....and that can count for a lot. You can see it in small actions, like when she essentially whispers and warns him to not be showing any weakness. She cares as much as a being like her can really care....so both on a personal and a "professional" level.
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But he was also unconsciously protecting himself against her. Lara was furious in peace talks about it but he didn't even recognize it.
No, the burn only happens when the Wamp tries to feed. Their kiss in White Night was fine until her demon kicked in. Which means she was either lusting for him when they bumped shoulders in PT, or her demon is just always on now. I don't think Harry has any control over it whatsoever.
Based on PT, it sounds like Lara might not be able to consciously resist feeding if they get intimate. I'm thinking this is a ploy by Mab to get Harry to do something else by throwing this obstacle in the way.
I would think the Winter Knight mantle would have a way of negating the hunger if it reared its head (i'm thinking flash freeze of whatever flesh is touching to teach it the lesson). But the problem is definitely that Harry is currently protected by True Love with Murphy. So unless he sleeps around before the wedding...
Honestly, I was never in the 'ewww' camp. But I get the perspective that comes from. but as I said, time can change things between people, so can having to face those horrors they are facing. Soemtimes you get to a point you can only relate and open up with someone who has tread those same dark paths. Winter is definitely a dark path.
But it also depends on how it is all handled too. To be honest and blunt, I'm not sure Butcher would handle it very well anyway...he doesn't tend to write relationships very well from anything of his I have read.
Right, but you notice the tension between Lara and Molly? and Mab did specifically mention 'courting' her Knight. That makes me think she mentioned Harry specifically. But maybe she didn't. Maybe that is just how Mab interpreted things...with Mab it's difficult to know.
I think your right though, I think Butcher has changed his mind about Lara. I'm not opposed to their match or marriage. I honestly think that Harry needs a staunch ally with a lot of money and some political power. I think that for him to survive and thrive without the WC behind him, he's going to need someone like Lara for this phase in his life.
He's got his lab back, but now he needs money so he can repair and re-stock it. It's in Lara's best interest for him to be at his magical best. It's not a love thing, but it's a useful thing for sure and that is what a lot of marriages in medieval times were made for.
The truth of the matter is, Mab has Harry's back. She downplays it and Harry isn't aware of it, but you can see that through her words and actions. She cuts Harry a lot of slack she'd never cut anyone else, not only because he is useful to her and his plans, but because she is actually fond of him....and that can count for a lot. You can see it in small actions, like when she essentially whispers and warns him to not be showing any weakness. She cares as much as a being like her can really care....so both on a personal and a "professional" level.
He should have millions left over from the Skin Game diamond heist. Financing shouldn't be too much of a concern. I think there was a cut for Murphy as well, and he might end up with that as well.
As for surviving, he's got two places to be now that are arguably as defensible as the Edinburgh facility itself, and that's even before he hangs the Placard on the wall with Mister's blood on it. He's probably going to have a formal army of Little Folk that follow him around 24/7 watching his back, he's going to have Molly and Lara and River all being friends with small armies, and he's got an arsenal at his beck and call. If he figures out a way to get to the island faster, he'll be neigh unstoppable.
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So Mab and Merlin were a thing.
I remember how you wept when Merlin cast you out.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 279). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
And.“Certain aspects of my power have to do with choices I made when I was mortal,” she said. “There would be . . . compatibility issues. This is part of the task the Knight was designed for.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 395). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Is Lara her daughter? Did she cheat on Merlin with Papa Raith? And did she know that this would one day happen? And to go all in, is the Source of the friction between her and her sister a love triangle with Papa Raith? I can see Jim cackling in my mind.
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No, the burn only happens when the Wamp tries to feed. Their kiss in White Night was fine until her demon kicked in. Which means she was either lusting for him when they bumped shoulders in PT, or her demon is just always on now. I don't think Harry has any control over it whatsoever.
It is a defense against Lara feeding from him and it will affect how she acts around him but it is not what I meant.
Harry locked Thomas up in Demonreach and he is the only one who can release him. Lara must protect him. And he arranged it without even thinking about that consequence.
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So Mab and Merlin were a thing.And.Is Lara her daughter? Did she cheat on Merlin with Papa Raith? And did she know that this would one day happen? And to go all in, is the Source of the friction between her and her sister a love triangle with Papa Raith? I can see Jim cackling in my mind.
I don't think Mab and Merlin necessarily had a physical relationship. She could have been a member of Camelot or Merlin's inner circle of wizards, and he cast her out. I could easily see it being like Harry/Molly, where Mab was in love with Merlin but he kept her at a distance.
It is a defense against Lara feeding from him and it will affect how she acts around him but it is not what I meant.
Harry locked Thomas up in Demonreach and he is the only one who can release him. Lara must protect him. And he arranged it without even thinking about that consequence.
I can't see him keeping Thomas locked up past the wedding. He's going to want him there for it, as will she. My guess is that we might get two more plots before the wedding. Wouldn't surprise me if we get Mirror Mirror and the Wrestling Book within the year of the engagement, and then book #20 is the wedding.
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I don't think Mab and Merlin necessarily had a physical relationship. She could have been a member of Camelot or Merlin's inner circle of wizards, and he cast her out. I could easily see it being like Harry/Molly, where Mab was in love with Merlin but he kept her at a distance.
I can't see him keeping Thomas locked up past the wedding. He's going to want him there for it, as will she. My guess is that we might get two more plots before the wedding. Wouldn't surprise me if we get Mirror Mirror and the Wrestling Book within the year of the engagement, and then book #20 is the wedding.
But that was not the point. The point is that he is not unconsciously letting his guard down, he is unconsciously guarding himself.
Or maybe he is doing both. That can get complicated.
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But that was not the point. The point is that he is not unconsciously letting his guard down, he is unconsciously guarding himself.
Or maybe he is doing both. That can get complicated.
I don't think he can turn it on or off, consciously or unconsciously. It's a force field around him, or a rose, or a ring, all the time. The only thing that changes is the hunger in the Wamp, which is on or off. If the hunger is off, then contact can be made, like between him and Thomas, or him and Lara in White Night. Only if the Wamp's hunger is always on, like Madeline's in Turn Coat, is the protection a threat to the Wamp.
"The White Court only get burned when they try to feed on someone touched by true love, right?"
"It isn't as simple as that," Thomas said quietly. "It's got to do with how much control the hunger has over you when you touch."
I grunted. "But when they feed, the hunger's in control."
Thomas nodded slowly.
"So why'd Madeline try to feed on Justine? She had to know it would hurt her."
"Same reason I do," Thomas said. "She can't help it. It's reflex."
I frowned. "I don't get it."
He was quiet long enough to make me think he wasn't going to say anything, before he finally spoke. "Justine and I were together for years. And she ... means a lot to me. When I'm near her, I can't think about anything else but her. And when I touch her, everything in me wants to be nearer to her."
"Including your hunger," I said quietly.
He nodded. "We agree on that point, my demon and I. So I can't touch Justine without it being... close to the surface, I suppose you could call it."
"And it gets burned," I said.
He nodded. "Madeline is the other end of the spectrum. She thinks she should get to feed on anyone she wants, anywhere, anytime. She doesn't see other people. She just sees food. Her hunger controls her completely." He smiled a bitter little smile. "So for her it's reflex, just like for me."
This suggests that Lara is either walking around always on, with no control over her hunger, or she's so attracted to Harry that she can't help but be attracted to him, and the hunger feels it too.
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This suggests that Lara is either walking around always on, with no control over her hunger, or she's so attracted to Harry that she can't help but be attracted to him, and the hunger feels it too.
The former doesn't track with her established character as she's generally always "in control."
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I don't think he can turn it on or off, consciously or unconsciously. It's a force field around him, or a rose, or a ring, all the time. The only thing that changes is the hunger in the Wamp, which is on or off. If the hunger is off, then contact can be made, like between him and Thomas, or him and Lara in White Night. Only if the Wamp's hunger is always on, like Madeline's in Turn Coat, is the protection a threat to the Wamp.
This suggests that Lara is either walking around always on, with no control over her hunger, or she's so attracted to Harry that she can't help but be attracted to him, and the hunger feels it too.
He told her no, more than once- and he's obviously attracted to her, so it's not that she's lost it.
To a certain kind of woman, that's irresistible. It's the only kind of woman Butcher seems to write- Mab feels that way about him as Winter Knight over his defiance.
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I don't think he can turn it on or off, consciously or unconsciously. It's a force field around him, or a rose, or a ring, all the time. The only thing that changes is the hunger in the Wamp, which is on or off. If the hunger is off, then contact can be made, like between him and Thomas, or him and Lara in White Night. Only if the Wamp's hunger is always on, like Madeline's in Turn Coat, is the protection a threat to the Wamp.
I was not talking about the true love protection.
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I was not talking about the true love protection.
I don't think him locking Thomas up had anything to do with Lara at all. I don't think it crossed his mind in the slightest. I think he had a singular focus, and that was saving his brother. He didn't think about anything outside of that. He only seemed to realize that it wouldn't go over well with Lara when it didn't go over well with Lara.
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I don't think him locking Thomas up had anything to do with Lara at all. I don't think it crossed his mind in the slightest. I think he had a singular focus, and that was saving his brother. He didn't think about anything outside of that. He only seemed to realize that it wouldn't go over well with Lara when it didn't go over well with Lara.
But he did recognise that he was unconsciously protecting himself, that was the important point.
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But he did recognise that he was unconsciously protecting himself, that was the important point.
I don't know where he acknowledged that he was protecting himself from her by committing the action that would require him to protect himself from her. Was that in PT?
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I don't know where he acknowledged that he was protecting himself from her by committing the action that would require him to protect himself from her. Was that in PT?
I think you may be a little confused, I believe in Peace Talks Lara brushes against him and gets burnt. Harry says he was happy to find out that he has true love's protection from Lara.. He is also happy about what that says about his and Murphy's relationship as well.
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I don't know where he acknowledged that he was protecting himself from her by committing the action that would require him to protect himself from her. Was that in PT?
In peace talks after Thomas was locked up in demonreach. After Lara attacked him and Harry showed her what he could do with the island they had a chat about what he did and what his motivations were.
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In peace talks after Thomas was locked up in demonreach. After Lara attacked him and Harry showed her what he could do with the island they had a chat about what he did and what his motivations were.
That too, but that was a physical attack, she would have been successful any where else, with a big maybe because Harry can fight when he needs to. What I mentioned was his fear of being fed upon by her..
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That too, but that was a physical attack, she would have been successful any where else, with a big maybe because Harry can fight when he needs to. What I mentioned was his fear of being fed upon by her..
The physical attack was because what Harry had done. He had basically taken Thomas so Lara has to protect him. As Harry said maybe he was hanging around with Mab too much. It was a general protection measure done unconsciously. That was the point. He is not lowering his guard unconsciously. He takes protective measures without thinking.
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From a story standpoint, I thought it was brilliant and funny.
From Mab's standpoint, an arranged marriage for her Knight to form an alliance makes perfect sense. Historically, most monarchies in every part of the world used marriages to signal the creation of a new alliance or strengthen an existing one, and Mab is the right age to think the same way as the decision makers of those old monarchies.
For Mab, it's a political move and as Bigdangmoose said, it could be a way to sink her hooks deeper into Harry, Molly and Lara. Also, Mab might not care if the marriage is ever consummated. That had to happen to seal the deal when Harry became her Knight, but I'm not certain if a political alliance needs to go that level of commitment. Obviously, Mab doesn't want Lara to get control of, or devour her Knight, so a sexless marriage might suite Mab just fine. However, such a marriage would still have all of the negative associations with Harry's current friends and former friends and allies in the White Council. Would anyone believe that Harry and Lara Raith had a platonic relationship? Imagine Harry trying to tell Ebenezer that.
My guess is after Mirror Mirror, Lara will be Harry's sidekick in the book that follows, though I doubt this will be a regular occurrence. That's the book about retired gods; maybe Greek gods, who work as professional wrestlers to keep people; their fans, worshiping them. Lara will still have a vested interest in protecting Harry because Thomas will still be stuck on Demonreach. So Harry might work undercover as a professional wrestler while Lara pretends to be his manager. They will bicker constantly and the people they meet will ask them how long they have been married, while the wedding Mab is planning for them is days away.
Long-term, even if their was some way for the two to consummate their relationship without Lara killing or enslaving Harry, and assuming the love protection is broken so Lara doesn't get burned every time she touches Harry, they don't make a believable match. For that to happen Lara would have to go through a redemption arc and I'm not seeing that as likely. Long-term, Molly is the better match for Harry, if Molly can become human again, and that's a big if.
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From a story standpoint, I thought it was brilliant and funny.
From Mab's standpoint, an arranged marriage for her Knight to form an alliance makes perfect sense. Historically, most monarchies in every part of the world used marriages to signal the creation of a new alliance or strengthen an existing one, and Mab is the right age to think the same way as the decision makers of those old monarchies.
For Mab, it's a political move and as Bigdangmoose said, it could be a way to sink her hooks deeper into Harry, Molly and Lara. Also, Mab might not care if the marriage is ever consummated. That had to happen to seal the deal when Harry became her Knight, but I'm not certain if a political alliance needs to go that level of commitment. Obviously, Mab doesn't want Lara to get control of, or devour her Knight, so a sexless marriage might suite Mab just fine. However, such a marriage would still have all of the negative associations with Harry's current friends and former friends and allies in the White Council. Would anyone believe that Harry and Lara Raith had a platonic relationship? Imagine Harry trying to tell Ebenezer that.
My guess is after Mirror Mirror, Lara will be Harry's sidekick in the book that follows, though I doubt this will be a regular occurrence. That's the book about retired gods; maybe Greek gods, who work as professional wrestlers to keep people; their fans, worshiping them. Lara will still have a vested interest in protecting Harry because Thomas will still be stuck on Demonreach. So Harry might work undercover as a professional wrestler while Lara pretends to be his manager. They will bicker constantly and the people they meet will ask them how long they have been married, while the wedding Mab is planning for them is days away.
Long-term, even if their was some way for the two to consummate their relationship without Lara killing or enslaving Harry, and assuming the love protection is broken so Lara doesn't get burned every time she touches Harry, they don't make a believable match. For that to happen Lara would have to go through a redemption arc and I'm not seeing that as likely. Long-term, Molly is the better match for Harry, if Molly can become human again, and that's a big if.
At some point Mab will die, it is foreshadowed enough times to make that sure. Molly will become Winter Queen. That is also foreshadowed and Harry won't kill her. That will open a can of worms of enourmous magnitude. Jim will enjoy that one.
Of course a happy ever after is possible with Molly giving birth to a lot of winter lady candidates but Molly sacrificing herself at the gates to save our reality is so much more in character.
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For that to happen Lara would have to go through a redemption arc and I'm not seeing that as likely.
To be fair, Harry managed to redeem the Shadow of a Fallen Angel. A Whampire would seem to be easier to do that to than Lash. :P Not saying it'll happen, of course, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
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To be fair, Harry managed to redeem the Shadow of a Fallen Angel. A Whampire would seem to be easier to do that to than Lash. :P Not saying it'll happen, of course, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Eh, I'm partial to their relationship being platonic, but them still having to physically sleep together. Can you hear Harry?
"I'm not having sex with the queen of the succubi, wife or no wife. But she sleeps in the buff, man- in the buff! Jerk!"
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To be fair, Harry managed to redeem the Shadow of a Fallen Angel. A Whampire would seem to be easier to do that to than Lash. :P Not saying it'll happen, of course, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Yeah, but Lash could only offer him power, where as Lara.......... ::) :P
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Yeah, but Lash could only offer him power, where as Lara.......... ::) :P
Offers feeling invincible.
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At some point Mab will die, it is foreshadowed enough times to make that sure. Molly will become Winter Queen. That is also foreshadowed and Harry won't kill her. That will open a can of worms of enourmous magnitude. Jim will enjoy that one.
Of course a happy ever after is possible with Molly giving birth to a lot of winter lady candidates but Molly sacrificing herself at the gates to save our reality is so much more in character.
If Molly became the Winter Queen, I wonder if the ah ... ceremony, that binds the Knight to Winter has to be repeated with the new Queen. I doubt that would be the case, but perhaps new Queen Molly would be the one to make that decision.
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Not a fan of Harry/Lara. Only viewing it as a business proposition. And I hope that Harry/Molly never comes to be. That's one line that I hope the book never crosses. He's like family to her and it would just be awkward city to say the least.
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Not a fan of Harry/Lara. Only viewing it as a business proposition. And I hope that Harry/Molly never comes to be. That's one line that I hope the book never crosses. He's like family to her and it would just be awkward city to say the least.
Sorry to say, you better come around to the idea of Harry and Molly. Jim wouldn't have kept the idea of them together this long if it didn't have some significance for the future.
And Harry has never been seen as family to Molly. Michael is accepting to them if it came to be. And Molly is not a kid anymore. She's pushing 30 if not older. With the delay in books I've lost track on the exact age. They have spent enough time apart that they aren't family, just good friends.
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If Molly became the Winter Queen, I wonder if the ah ... ceremony, that binds the Knight to Winter has to be repeated with the new Queen. I doubt that would be the case, but perhaps new Queen Molly would be the one to make that decision.
She'd make him renew his vows every night.
Yeah, but Lash could only offer him power, where as Lara.......... ::) :P
Lash I think offered to be anyone he wanted to be, didn't she? And if not, she could have. I know JB says Bonnie was born from Lash's sacrifice for Harry, but if I were Harry, I'd want a paternity test done against Evil Harry in his head.
In peace talks after Thomas was locked up in demonreach. After Lara attacked him and Harry showed her what he could do with the island they had a chat about what he did and what his motivations were.
Ah, okay. I found it. It didn't really read like that to me the first time, but I see it on a second go. Scenario two was that he did something unconsciously to gain an advantage.
Sorry to say, you better come around to the idea of Harry and Molly. Jim wouldn't have kept the idea of them together this long if it didn't have some significance for the future.
And Harry has never been seen as family to Molly. Michael is accepting to them if it came to be. And Molly is not a kid anymore. She's pushing 30 if not older. With the delay in books I've lost track on the exact age. They have spent enough time apart that they aren't family, just good friends.
Harry would be 39. Molly would be 26.
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@bigdangmoose
If you like it, you can keep on reading it. I'd just stop reading the books as I'm no fan of that kind of age difference. *shrug*
@Gryffyn612
Yep. And there's quite a bit of difference between those two ages. Molly's still figuring things out, Harry has more of his ducks in a row and is raising two children.
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Hey, not saying that it will happen soon. It will probably be during the BAT when it does. So age difference will be less and less significant by then and it will also be the end of the series
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Hey, not saying that it will happen soon. It will probably be during the BAT when it does. So age difference will be less and less significant by then and it will also be the end of the series
That'll be awkward if Murphy does come back as an Einherjar for the BAT, and is effectively immortal as such until she dies again or maybe willingly retires.
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That'll be awkward if Murphy does come back as an Einherjar for the BAT, and is effectively immortal as such until she dies again or maybe willingly retires.
Einherjar can’t return until all mortal memory of them as a person has faded. So we won’t be seeing our Murph again. 😭
And I’m kinda pissed that it didn’t even take half a book for Harry to have more romantic prospects again. He wasn’t over Susan for ages, and he and Murph were way closer.
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Einherjar can’t return until all mortal memory of them as a person has faded. So we won’t be seeing our Murph again. 😭
And I’m kinda pissed that it didn’t even take half a book for Harry to have more romantic prospects again. He wasn’t over Susan for ages, and he and Murph were way closer.
Sure, the rules are in place for the Einherjar, but I think we're going to reach a point where the rules are going to go out the window.
And I don't think Harry is romantically interested yet. He's just being tortured in a new way.
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Einherjar can’t return until all mortal memory of them as a person has faded. So we won’t be seeing our Murph again.
It's possible that this might change if the BAT includes actual Ragnarok, as I think all the Einherjar are supposed to fight then.
Even if Murphy can't return to the mortal world that doesn't mean that Harry and Murphy can't fight together, if the battle is fought in the Nevernever. Perhaps the Plains of Vigrid (where Ragnarok is supposed to be fought) is in the NN.
And I’m kinda pissed that it didn’t even take half a book for Harry to have more romantic prospects again. He wasn’t over Susan for ages, and he and Murph were way closer.
Harry certainly isn't seeing it as a "romantic prospect", and he is this close to outright defying Mab over it, when Molly stops him. He's extremely upset about the idea.
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If you like it, you can keep on reading it. I'd just stop reading the books as I'm no fan of that kind of age difference. *shrug*
39 and 26? My husband was 38 and I was 26, our marriage lasted for over forty years till he died.
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It's a silly comparison in any case. If their lifespan was 300 years the age difference is trivial. He is at about 13 percent of his life span she at 9 percent. Figure that lifespan at 80 and it makes him 10 and her 7. 3 years effective difference at our life spans. Common.
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Main love interest: Elaine, but it turns out she's the big bad because Jim.
For another thing, Who do you think could replace Murphy as Harry main action partner?
Riley. Irwin and his wife. Elaine. The Alphas. Toot and Lacuna. Mirror, Mirror Morgan. Chandler who is a warlock after accidentally time traveling to get away from Drakul's void. Lara's Gard, whatever her first name was. I agree with the suggestions of Kincaid and Original Gard.
In one of the interviews, Jim mentioned that Thomas could feed on Fae but would eat false emotion which would be the same as a normal human eating Fae food in the Nevernever, which would turn him into the monster as soon he returned to the real world. I wonder if the same would apply to the Winter Knight mantle? So if Lara did feed on it, she'd go bonkers.
I think that would only be the case if she fed in the Nevernever and came back and was emptied of all "food."
@bigdangmoose
If you like it, you can keep on reading it. I'd just stop reading the books as I'm no fan of that kind of age difference. *shrug*
@Gryffyn612
Yep. And there's quite a bit of difference between those two ages. Molly's still figuring things out, Harry has more of his ducks in a row and is raising two children.
It depends on how long the series goes on for and how much time Molly spends in Winter. Molly might end up older than him.
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I thought "Cold Case" essentially cut off any possibility of a relationship between Molly and Harry.
But I don't think the age difference is the largest limitation there. Luccio and Harry were briefly together, and as of SmF/TC Harry was about 34-35 and Luccio was something like 210.
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I thought "Cold Case" essentially cut off any possibility of a relationship between Molly and Harry.
But I don't think the age difference is the largest limitation there. Luccio and Harry were briefly together, and as of SmF/TC Harry was about 34-35 and Luccio was something like 210.
The younger you are the more important the age difference is. The difference between 15 and 19 is too big but 30 and 34 is nothing special.
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Harry certainly isn't seeing it as a "romantic prospect", and he is this close to outright defying Mab over it, when Molly stops him. He's extremely upset about the idea.
I know he‘s upset, I don’t mean Harry is the one thinking it. But as readers it seems to having been set up for us to see Harry/Lara in Peace Talks, with all the sexual tension between them at multiple points, plus Freydis telling Harry that Lara *actually* might be interested in him, and now at the end of BG it’s shoved out into the open in what almost feels like a fanfic plot or a romcom, where two people are forced to get married, have to pretend they’re in a relationship, and then slowly fall for each other.
And honestly I’m not even opposed to that happening at all. Lara’s one of my favourite of Harry’s scary allies, and she’s not that scary anymore. I don’t even mind Harry/Lara. I just...wish it wasn’t in the same book where Murph died. 🙁
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I am still opposed to marrying someone who wants to eat you.
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I am still opposed to marrying someone who wants to eat you.
Pretty much. I don’t see how an actual physical relationship between Harry and Lara could work. I guess Thomas and Justine made it work but WHOOPSIE what if the reason Thomas could touch her again was Nemesis? Kinda puts a damper on things.
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Think about it. I would figure out how Mommies curse worked to keep Papa Raith from feeding and develop a charm to do that while I performed the horizontal mamba with my newlywed. Effectively slapping a muzzle on her. I mean, he's inventive right? He knocked up a proto vampire using unicorn rope.
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I thought "Cold Case" essentially cut off any possibility of a relationship between Molly and Harry.
But I don't think the age difference is the largest limitation there. Luccio and Harry were briefly together, and as of SmF/TC Harry was about 34-35 and Luccio was something like 210.
I am curious on this. Jim has started telling people that Fix and Sarrisa are/we're an item, like she was the one in bed with him back in PG. Is that still going on, I mean physically. They could still have feelings for each other and everything. But does the Lady mantle exclude the Knight mantle from her defense. We know what Mab has said, but what Jim said about Fix and Sarrisa makes me wonder. What has he said exactly?
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Think about it. I would figure out how Mommies curse worked to keep Papa Raith from feeding and develop a charm to do that while I performed the horizontal mamba with my newlywed. Effectively slapping a muzzle on her. I mean, he's inventive right? He knocked up a proto vampire using unicorn rope.
But Susan wanted it too and she let Harry bind her. Lara wouldn't and the trust is not there.
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Think about it. I would figure out how Mommies curse worked to keep Papa Raith from feeding and develop a charm to do that while I performed the horizontal mamba with my newlywed. Effectively slapping a muzzle on her. I mean, he's inventive right? He knocked up a proto vampire using unicorn rope.
Well since Leah was able to put the Red Court predator to sleep casually, She or Mab or Molly could give it to them as a wedding gift or an enchantment or their wedding rings.
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Well since Leah was able to put the Red Court predator to sleep casually, She or Mab or Molly could give it to them as a wedding gift or an enchantment or their wedding rings.
Yeeeaaahhhhh, can't see Molly doing that.
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Yeeeaaahhhhh, can't see Molly doing that.
I can not see Lara accepting it either.
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I thought "Cold Case" essentially cut off any possibility of a relationship between Molly and Harry.
No. Only while she is the Winter Lady. Some are sure Mab is going to die. Some are sure Harry's going to get out of being Winter Knight, but Harry said he's not doing it without Molly.
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No. Only while she is the Winter Lady. Some are sure Mab is going to die. Some are sure Harry's going to get out of being Winter Knight, but Harry said he's not doing it without Molly.
And Mab's dead is foreshadowed more than once.
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And Mab's dead is foreshadowed more than once.
It seems everyone's death is foreshadowed more than once.
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It seems everyone's death is foreshadowed more than once.
Empty Night
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And Mab's dead is foreshadowed more than once.
Problem with that logic is that people thought Murphy was foreshadowed to be a Knight. She put the sword in danger. People said it was foreshadowed that she would be upgraded to be a Valkyrie. She's now D.E.D dead. Maybe instead of her dying, it's that the stone table is broken and all the queens powers abandon all of them
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Problem with that logic is that people thought Murphy was foreshadowed to be a Knight. She put the sword in danger. People said it was foreshadowed that she would be upgraded to be a Valkyrie. She's now D.E.D dead. Maybe instead of her dying, it's that the stone table is broken and all the queens powers abandon all of them
Murphy was foreshadowed to be a Knight, but for one night only. She was never foreshadowed to be a Valkyrie. Gard told her she could work for Marcone, and that Vadderung would be interested also, her hair color was even right. However she never said she'd like Murphy to become one of her sisters, i.e. Valkyrie.
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Murphy was foreshadowed to be a Knight, but for one night only. She was never foreshadowed to be a Valkyrie. Gard told her she could work for Marcone, and that Vadderung would be interested also, her hair color was even right. However she never said she'd like Murphy to become one of her sisters, i.e. Valkyrie.
Right. I'm just pointing out how far people go with their versions of foreshadowing. They fight hard for it and it grows in other people's versions and somehow it becomes truth to what's going to happen. And then Jim laughs at us and says NOPE. It's my story and I want to see you cry.
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Right. I'm just pointing out how far people go with their versions of foreshadowing. They fight hard for it and it grows in other people's versions and somehow it becomes truth to what's going to happen. And then Jim laughs at us and says NOPE. It's my story and I want to see you cry.
Oh Mab dying will cause a lot of crying.
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I am curious on this. Jim has started telling people that Fix and Sarrisa are/we're an item, like she was the one in bed with him back in PG. Is that still going on, I mean physically. They could still have feelings for each other and everything. But does the Lady mantle exclude the Knight mantle from her defense. We know what Mab has said, but what Jim said about Fix and Sarrisa makes me wonder. What has he said exactly?
I believe the WOJ on that was that the Lady can do things that wouldn't result in pregnancy so long as her self-control is strong enough that the mantle doesn't perceive a danger of crossing that line, and Maeve did. Presumably Fix and Sarissa are in a similar situation. Summer mantles probably don't amp lust up quite as hard as Winter ones, so they might have it easier.
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I believe the WOJ on that was that the Lady can do things that wouldn't result in pregnancy so long as her self-control is strong enough that the mantle doesn't perceive a danger of crossing that line, and Maeve did. Presumably Fix and Sarissa are in a similar situation. Summer mantles probably don't amp lust up quite as hard as Winter ones, so they might have it easier.
So no front door action. But as long as control is kept, foreplay and back door action are a go. Interesting
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I believe the WOJ on that was that the Lady can do things that wouldn't result in pregnancy so long as her self-control is strong enough that the mantle doesn't perceive a danger of crossing that line, and Maeve did. Presumably Fix and Sarissa are in a similar situation. Summer mantles probably don't amp lust up quite as hard as Winter ones, so they might have it easier.
Maeve didn't bother:
“Maeve, what could I possibly have ruined for you? Did finally moving out of that studio apartment destroy your life? Did getting my nursing degree somehow diminish your power? Did I steal some boyfriend of yours that you accidently left breathing after the first night?”
Also a way for the winter lady to kill someone directly
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As Thomas said though, procreation is very rare for Whamps. Mab can't be banking too hard on the alliance being founded on an actual child being born of the political marriage, because that might not happen for decades even if they were being intimate.
There will be a child born soon -Justine's and Thomas' . It may not be their child however if the parents aren't able to care for the baby, Harry and Lara may need to claim it (that's if they ever catch up to Nem-Justine)
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I wag, when the priest says if anyone has any objections speak now, Molly is going to stand up and before she can utter a word the Archive is going to blow the door in lol. The only real shame is this will probably have to wait til after MM to find out.
@icecream I shudder to think of what will happen to the child if Nemesis raises it. The story doesn't go far enough for them to grow up... But *gulp* long enough for them to be sacrificed...
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I wag, when the priest says if anyone has any objections speak now, Molly is going to stand up and before she can utter a word the Archive is going to blow the door in lol. The only real shame is this will probably have to wait til after MM to find out.
@icecream I shudder to think of what will happen to the child if Nemesis raises it. The story doesn't go far enough for them to grow up... But *gulp* long enough for them to be sacrificed...
You assume a Christian wedding. Mab is not a Christian. Your individual wishes don’t count, only those of your families, courts etc.
Though in this case Lara discovered that you have to be very careful with your favors.
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You assume a Christian wedding. Mab is not a Christian. Your individual wishes don’t count, only those of your families, courts etc.
Though in this case Lara discovered that you have to be very careful with your favors.
Please, Lara knew exactly what she was asking for:
Her eyes lingered on me for a moment "Are you sure what I ask isn't too much trouble?"
"Such things are part and parcel of his duties," Mab said. "assuming you find him acceptable."
"Oh my," Lara said, glancing at me again. "Oh yes."
Taking that, Freydis telling Harry outright that 'dude, Lara's totally into you', Molly being super frosty with Lara when she arrives in Battle Ground... yeah, I feel like she knew what was going on.
She just expected Mab to give her some more time to swing Harry around on it, instead of going "I'm Mab and I declare you two shall be wed"
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You assume a Christian wedding. Mab is not a Christian. Your individual wishes don’t count, only those of your families, courts etc.
Though in this case Lara discovered that you have to be very careful with your favors.
you /assume/ it won't be a christian wedding. And mab pays lip service anyway. Hell being a supernatural she might not want to infringe on something that's specifically a religious ceremony. I'd quite imagine one mask of a supernatural being or another has that aspect as their own. That'd make it their domain, like Hera for instance, Goddess of marriage... Poor lass... Married to the God of adultery lol
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Please, Lara knew exactly what she was asking for:
Taking that, Freydis telling Harry outright that 'dude, Lara's totally into you', Molly being super frosty with Lara when she arrives in Battle Ground... yeah, I feel like she knew what was going on.
She just expected Mab to give her some more time to swing Harry around on it, instead of going "I'm Mab and I declare you two shall be wed"
Yes but it still surprised her how fast and without a proper negotiation of the wedding contract. Who knows what kind of contract Mab thinks is normal and right.
you /assume/ it won't be a christian wedding. And mab pays lip service anyway. Hell being a supernatural she might not want to infringe on something that's specifically a religious ceremony. I'd quite imagine one mask of a supernatural being or another has that aspect as their own. That'd make it their domain, like Hera for instance, Goddess of marriage... Poor lass... Married to the God of adultery lol
But the Sidhe are basically pagans and Harry is sworn to her. I think she won’t give anyone the opportunity to object. Marriage is older than Christianity and can take a lot of forms.
Maybe the let him do it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen_(god)
He is currently busy with his wrestling career so you now know the plot of Harry’s next book.
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But the Sidhe are basically pagans and Harry is sworn to her. I think she won’t give anyone the opportunity to object. Marriage is older than Christianity and can take a lot of forms.
tell me something I don't know? The Sidhe are not pagan... They're Celtic iirc. customs and rules WILL be upheld, so says the Mab.
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tell me something I don't know? The Sidhe are not pagan... They're Celtic iirc. customs and rules WILL be upheld, so says the Mab.
Sure but who's customs and rules? Harry and Lara are not christian either.
And doing everything immediately is not exactly according to rules and customs either. Expect a few surprises about the exact nature of this wedding.
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And doing everything immediately is not exactly according to rules and customs either.
but who's rules and customs?
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but who's rules and customs?
Not according to Christian customs anyway so that points to other customs.
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Not according to Christian customs anyway so that points to other customs.
that's a nice theory.
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Though maybe Mab owns a company like this. https://www.instantmarriagela.com/
That is only a civil ceremony so not strictly speaking a Christian wedding.
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Mab is a lawyer and a Queen. All she has to do is say do you, you do my Knight, you are now man and wife
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Well we know the kiss seals the deal, all the rest is just fluff and theatre.
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Well we know the kiss seals the deal, all the rest is just fluff and theatre.
A burning kiss.
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A burning kiss.
Nice. She just has to put on moisturizing lipgloss.
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Harry will be Thomas's brother twice over, half brother through Margaret and brother-in-law through marriage. Bob will give Harry so much grief.
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Bob will give Harry so much grief.
Oh, man ... I was just thinking of Sanya giving him crap. I hadn't thought about how Bob is going to react!
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I think if Mab wants Harry and Lara to get a kid I cannot see how they will not get one in the very first try.
It is a pretty smart move from Mab. If there is one thing that seems entirely certain it is that Harry protects his children and that he does not want them to grow up orphans (if he can avoid it). After feeling so bad about killing Maggies mother there is no way he will ever let anything happen to Lara. The way his guilt trips works anything that happened to her would be something that he should have thought about protecting her from.
Also, now that the masquerade is starting to fall, I can see why Mab wants to have a strong alliance with the most competent manipulators of humankind.
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You assume a Christian wedding.
I've never been to a wedding with that line.
tell me something I don't know? The Sidhe are not pagan... They're Celtic iirc. customs and rules WILL be upheld, so says the Mab.
How is the non-Christian Celtic belief system not pagan? Pagan: "a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions."
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I've never been to a wedding with that line.
How is the non-Christian Celtic belief system not pagan? Pagan: "a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions."
and whose to say what the main world religions are exactly? That definition is derogatory, a catch all terminology invented by judeo-christian stereotyping. By definition it's basically saying your pagan are f your gods are minor, unimportant, ect. And we could basically use it to cover Egyptian, greek, roman, ect. All of which have their own specific identity. So does Celtic tradition.
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That definition is derogatory, a catch all terminology invented by judeo-christian stereotyping. By definition it's basically saying your pagan are f your gods are minor, unimportant, ect. And we could basically use it to cover Egyptian, greek, roman, ect.
So your point isn't that the term pagan is incorrect, but that it's offensive?
The term pagan was invented by Christians to describe non-Christians. It was used in a derogatory manner. Pagan means basically the same thing as peasant, hick, villain, etc. At some point it came to mean "not monotheistic," but retains many of the other meanings.
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So your point isn't that the term pagan is incorrect, but that it's offensive?
The term pagan was invented by Christians to describe non-Christians. It was used in a derogatory manner. Pagan means basically the same thing as peasant, hick, villain, etc. At some point it came to mean "not monotheistic," but retains many of the other meanings.
my point is pagan is not a religion, it's a description OF religions. If I asked, for instance, what is the pagan creation myth, there isn't just one that can be pointed to. It is... Misapplied.. and at its root it is kinda offensive depending on who says it to who.
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Arjan correctly used the term.
But the Sidhe are basically pagans. ... Marriage is older than Christianity.
By juxtaposing pagans and Christianity it's clear he means not Christian. That's one of the definitions. The Sidhe are "not Christian."
It's not correct to say the Sidhe are not pagan. It is simply false.
I don't have any objection to you saying "pagan" is an offensive term, is too vague, etc. But to call the Sidhe Celtic is also too vague. Celtic doesn't mean "not Christian." It means of or relating to the Celts and their languages.
The statements "But the Sidhe are basically [Celtic] and Harry is sworn to her. I think she won’t give anyone the opportunity to object. Marriage is older than Christianity and can take a lot of forms." don't make any sense in context. Pre-Christian Celtic would work though.
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What are their pagan beliefs then? What makes them pagan? Other than a derogatory denotation? Also, we don't actually know they aren't christian per se. Lea responds deeper to Michaels oath on the blood of christ than any other thing. They also adhere to the three primary movers of faith, keeping to ones word hope,to do ones duty and love, homestead laws. So how are they pagan when they pay lip service to TWG and hold no faith of their own? Why, I could argue they are christian (heck, Santa Clause is a fae and Mab respects Christmas, Christ's day) in that that is the only deity they show deference towards.
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What are their pagan beliefs then?
Their whole attitude is pre Christian.
What makes them pagan? Other than a derogatory denotation? Also, we don't actually know they aren't christian per se. Lea responds deeper to Michaels oath on the blood of christ than any other thing.
It is serious power. She recognizes that. But that is not the same as being a Christian.
They also adhere to the three primary movers of faith, keeping to ones word hope,to do ones duty and love, homestead laws.
Duty? Love? Homestead laws?
Those are not specific Christian values. To claim that is more insulting than using the word pagan as meaning non Christian.
So how are they pagan when they pay lip service to TWG and hold no faith of their own?
They are, or mostly were, the objects of faith. And mark how Mab talks about the white god. She recognizes him as a power but it is not her god, the term itself is a giveaway. It is a Viking term to introduce a foreign god.
And of course she is better at torturing people. Tree days at a cross, Slate suffered more.
Why, I could argue they are christian (heck, Santa Clause is a fae and Mab respects Christmas, Christ's day) in that that is the only deity they show deference towards.
Christmas is a pagan festival with some very superficial Christian additions. Kringle is certainly not a Christian saint. That tree is not a representation of the cross and that sacrificial turkey is not the body of Christ.
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@arjan, it is not insulting, the three powers actually are spoke of in the bible and those things are how the Sidhe respect them. Duty is the hope of every warrior, Maeve, who was infected with fearbringer, didn't do her duty. the parallels exist.
Being prechristian, which they aren't would mean they were before christ, most Celtic, Norse, ect mythology runs concurrently, not before. And if the tuatha were protoSidhe, existing before them, they do NOT come from prechristianity.
Christmas is a pagan what? Pagan has no beliefs of its own, we've already set that standard. The tree gods most call pagan were again, Celtic. Now Santa bring gifts for Christmas and so does mab, she doesn't give maggie the ring based on another holiday similar to Christmas, she says it directly, Christmas present.
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@arjan, it is not insulting, the three powers actually are spoke of in the bible and those things are how the Sidhe respect them. Duty is the hope of every warrior, Maeve, who was infected with fearbringer, didn't do her duty. the parallels exist.
To claim them as specifically Christian is and that is what is done if claimed as proof for Christianity.
Being prechristian, which they aren't would mean they were before christ, most Celtic, Norse, ect mythology runs concurrently, not before.
They represent a different tradition. You can discuss the age of that tradition but that is ultimately a meaningless discussion. There are similarities in the indo European gods that point to a very old tradition
And if the tuatha were protoSidhe, existing before them, they do NOT come from prechristianity.
They are ultimately derived from the Celtic gods and how old they were nobody knows. The romans encountered them in Gaul.
Christmas is a pagan what? Pagan has no beliefs of its own, we've already set that standard.
Define we in this context. The pagan religions Christianity encountered in the west have a few things in common.
Atheism has no beliefs of its own. Most pagan beliefs share some characteristics.
The tree gods most call pagan were again, Celtic. Now Santa bring gifts for Christmas and so does mab, she doesn't give maggie the ring based on another holiday similar to Christmas, she says it directly, Christmas present.
Syncretism is a very interesting thing. When is something pagan or Christian or both? The names are not the most important thing.
The Mayan gods are still worshipped. Sometimes they got a saint name and a festival but the forms are still recognizable and do the worshippers think about their god or the Christian saint during the procession? Sometimes it is clear when they have other rites with other priests as well.
https://www.vagabondjourney.com/maya-and-catholic-religious-syncretism-at-chamula-mexico/
Christmas has so many pagan elements that any pagan or neo pagan can claim it as his own including Mab.
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To claim them as specifically Christian is and that is what is done if claimed as proof for Christianity.
I actually just said I COULD argue they were. And you realize this is DF christianity yes? Ergo no, no it's not insulting. Get back in the book a little. Because I could claim this gratuitous use of pagan is insulting. They represent a different tradition. You can discuss the age of that tradition but that is ultimately a meaningless discussion.
no, that's directly relevant to this discussion. There are similarities in the indo European gods that point to a very old tradition
They are ultimately derived from the Celtic gods and how old they were nobody knows. The romans encountered them in Gaul.Define we in this context.The pagan religions Christianity encountered in the west have a few things in common.
well what a coincidence, Christianity has a few things in common with these 'pagan' religions too. All kinds of holidays, customs adopted ect. Point being?
Atheism has no beliefs of its own. actually the denial of a higher power, otherwise it becomes agnostic, like Sanya Most pagan beliefs share some characteristics. Syncretism is a very interesting thing. When is something pagan or Christian or both? The names are not the most important thing.
why thank you, the names not important, they share so much you just made my point for me.
The Mayan gods are still worshipped. Sometimes they got a saint name and a festival but the forms are still recognizable and do the worshippers think about their god or the Christian saint during the procession? Sometimes it is clear when they have other rites with other priests as well.
https://www.vagabondjourney.com/maya-and-catholic-religious-syncretism-at-chamula-mexico/
Christmas has so many pagan elements that any pagan or neo pagan can claim it as his own including Mab.
in fact, if paganism and christianity are so interelated, it's be hard to prove TWG doesn't have those aspects as part of it's whole too.
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It seems to me that Mab has probably more than one or two reasons for wanting to marry Harry to Lara.
I'd argue, given what we've seen in recent books, that Mab always tries to protect Harry (despite Harry's objections that she would only care for a Knight who can protect himself, she's been doing a lot to help him or prevent him from doing mistakes). So I assume that her main reason for her to make them marry is to protect Harry. She wanted it to happen right away. Why? Most people thought it was to torture Harry, but what had just happened? Harry had just been kicked off the WC, so he's basically defenseless. An alliance/marriage with Lara would mean one thing to Harry's potential enemies: if you attack him, you attack the WCV. Mab cannot protect her Knight openly, or it would make him look weak, but by giving him an ally who is basically a Chief of State of an Accorded Nation, attacking Harry would mean a lot more to potential random enemies (it's not gonna stop Mavra or some crazies/really powerful enemies, but it can stop others).
Second, Mab has to repay the favors she owes to Lara, and from her point of view, there's no reason not to strengthen Winter's position by making a more permanent and reliable ally out of the WCV, especially since Lara is such a good political player.
Third, the marriage is meant to piss off Molly, and to basically tell her to forget her human emotions and to start acting like a Queen of Winter. Mab said she was lacking and too dangerous to become Mab right now. Considering what we've seen about Mab, it's probably about being "cold" enough to put your feelings aside and do what's necessary. And Molly can't say no to Harry and will always run to help him, even if it means somewhat endangering her duties as a Winter Queen or exhausting herself and leaving her vulnerable.
Fourth, it widens the gap between Harry and the WC. From what we've seen at the end of BG, the Accorded Nations don't trust the WC, or they would have invited them to their private talks. One-Eye and Mab at least know that they're probably at least somewhat directed by either Nemesis or the Black Council (or both). It also protects Harry from the WC, because basically killing Harry would mean waging war on two Accorded Nations, which even the WC might be reluctant to do, especially in their weakened state.
Fifth, it protects Harry from Lara. She might be a "good guy" nowadays, but she still puts her interests or that of her family/Court first. Making Harry part of that family would make her less likely to kill him for political reasons.
Also, I agree that Lara totally knew what she was asking. She's completely in femme fatale falling for the detective mode right now. Freydis told us as much in PT.
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Sibelius, if you go and look at the history of the church, they have taken a lot of pagan holidays and slapped Christian beliefs to them. Christmas wasn't a holiday of giving gifts. There was a pagan holiday of gift giving. The church took the pagan holiday, slapped the name Christmas on it, and made it a church holiday
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Sibelius, if you go and look at the history of the church, they have taken a lot of pagan holidays and slapped Christian beliefs to them. Christmas wasn't a holiday of giving gifts. There was a pagan holiday of gift giving. The church took the pagan holiday, slapped the name Christmas on it, and made it a church holiday
Yes, it was a way to gain converts to Christianity. The local pagans perhaps didn't care to warm up to a spoil sport religion. Besides some of the festivals they continued to practice anyway in spite of the new religion, so they were simply incorporated them and gave them new meanings.
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Yes, it was a way to gain converts to Christianity. The local pagans perhaps didn't care to warm up to a spoil sport religion. Besides some of the festivals they continued to practice anyway in spite of the new religion, so they were simply incorporated them and gave them new meanings.
Or they changed some trappings and names to hide their religion from their oppressors. The difference is difficult to see sometimes.
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It seems to me that Mab has probably more than one or two reasons for wanting to marry Harry to Lara.
I'd argue, given what we've seen in recent books, that Mab always tries to protect Harry (despite Harry's objections that she would only care for a Knight who can protect himself, she's been doing a lot to help him or prevent him from doing mistakes). So I assume that her main reason for her to make them marry is to protect Harry. She wanted it to happen right away. Why? Most people thought it was to torture Harry, but what had just happened? Harry had just been kicked off the WC, so he's basically defenseless. An alliance/marriage with Lara would mean one thing to Harry's potential enemies: if you attack him, you attack the WCV. Mab cannot protect her Knight openly, or it would make him look weak, but by giving him an ally who is basically a Chief of State of an Accorded Nation, attacking Harry would mean a lot more to potential random enemies (it's not gonna stop Mavra or some crazies/really powerful enemies, but it can stop others).
Second, Mab has to repay the favors she owes to Lara, and from her point of view, there's no reason not to strengthen Winter's position by making a more permanent and reliable ally out of the WCV, especially since Lara is such a good political player.
Third, the marriage is meant to piss off Molly, and to basically tell her to forget her human emotions and to start acting like a Queen of Winter. Mab said she was lacking and too dangerous to become Mab right now. Considering what we've seen about Mab, it's probably about being "cold" enough to put your feelings aside and do what's necessary. And Molly can't say no to Harry and will always run to help him, even if it means somewhat endangering her duties as a Winter Queen or exhausting herself and leaving her vulnerable.
Fourth, it widens the gap between Harry and the WC. From what we've seen at the end of BG, the Accorded Nations don't trust the WC, or they would have invited them to their private talks. One-Eye and Mab at least know that they're probably at least somewhat directed by either Nemesis or the Black Council (or both). It also protects Harry from the WC, because basically killing Harry would mean waging war on two Accorded Nations, which even the WC might be reluctant to do, especially in their weakened state.
Fifth, it protects Harry from Lara. She might be a "good guy" nowadays, but she still puts her interests or that of her family/Court first. Making Harry part of that family would make her less likely to kill him for political reasons.
Also, I agree that Lara totally knew what she was asking. She's completely in femme fatale falling for the detective mode right now. Freydis told us as much in PT.
And (not sure I have posted that already somewhere) maybe Mab intends Lara to teach Harry how to behave diplomatically on political events. To prepare him for a more politically active role for Winter.
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From an author's view: yes absolutely! There are myriad directions this can be taken, many that have been expressed in this forum.
From Harry's view: Suck it up buttercup! You made the deal, have some integrity for once. Lara is in the Venatori with Thomas, a founder of the BFS, has the same view on family, and can deal with the Winter Knight Mantel in the sack. The list goes on and on.
From Mab's view: Far too many to list, this is a no brainer.
From Lara's view: Suck it up buttercup! You called a favor from Mab without proper framing. How many centuries old are you? You're the head of the White Court for Pete's sake, do better if you didn't like this turn. ESPECIALLY WHEN DEALING WITH MAB!!!
From Molly's view: Ouch!! The mantel as well as Harry's feelings keep your relationship platonic. You hope to have a marriage with your lover Lara, think you both have worked Mab only to be out maneuvered. Now you are tasked with making a marriage happen between your two loves. Again, OUCH!!
From my view: OH HELL YES!!! Murph was never going to last unless she became immortal somehow. I figured she was on the list to be written out at the end of Changes. Granted I thought she would end up a Knight of the Cross and be sidelined that way but when Molly was taken as Winter Lady I knew Murphy was going to die. With Lara there is so much to work with. One book of the two of them trying to prevent the marriage only to be married. One book of them trying to get out of the marriage but still failing, however, because they have to work so closely together they start having feelings. One or more books of them struggling with these feelings before giving in and actually being in love. Then the whole mess that being in True Love will bring about. I say YES!!
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And (not sure I have posted that already somewhere) maybe Mab intends Lara to teach Harry how to behave diplomatically on political events. To prepare him for a more politically active role for Winter.
Harry seducing people? That could be hilarious.
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From an author's view: yes absolutely! There are myriad directions this can be taken, many that have been expressed in this forum.
From Harry's view: Suck it up buttercup! You made the deal, have some integrity for once. Lara is in the Venatori with Thomas, a founder of the BFS, has the same view on family, and can deal with the Winter Knight Mantel in the sack. The list goes on and on.
From Mab's view: Far too many to list, this is a no brainer.
From Lara's view: Suck it up buttercup! You called a favor from Mab without proper framing. How many centuries old are you? You're the head of the White Court for Pete's sake, do better if you didn't like this turn. ESPECIALLY WHEN DEALING WITH MAB!!!
From Molly's view: Ouch!! The mantel as well as Harry's feelings keep your relationship platonic. You hope to have a marriage with your lover Lara, think you both have worked Mab only to be out maneuvered. Now you are tasked with making a marriage happen between your two loves. Again, OUCH!!
From my view: OH HELL YES!!! Murph was never going to last unless she became immortal somehow. I figured she was on the list to be written out at the end of Changes. Granted I thought she would end up a Knight of the Cross and be sidelined that way but when Molly was taken as Winter Lady I knew Murphy was going to die. With Lara there is so much to work with. One book of the two of them trying to prevent the marriage only to be married. One book of them trying to get out of the marriage but still failing, however, because they have to work so closely together they start having feelings. One or more books of them struggling with these feelings before giving in and actually being in love. Then the whole mess that being in True Love will bring about. I say YES!!
Huh? What are you talking about. Molly and Lara, lovers? While I would love to see that with Harry included, I haven't seen anything suggesting it.
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I am still opposed to marrying someone who wants to eat you.
Not much different from real life 8)
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Huh? What are you talking about. Molly and Lara, lovers? While I would love to see that with Harry included, I haven't seen anything suggesting it.
"How tall do the letters have to be?" - Red Cap ;)
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"How tall to the letters have to be?" - Red Cap ;)
Much taller.
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Much taller.
Two references to throuples during PT, conflict between Molly and Lara from the beginning of PT, Molly's prior encounters with the White Court, Molly stating that the year is also for Lara's sake, Molly's Catholic upbringing highlighted in exchange between Friedah & Murphy, Harry's reference to Mab marrying Lara, etc
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Two references to throuples during PT, conflict between Molly and Lara from the beginning of PT, Molly's prior encounters with the White Court, Molly stating that the year is also for Lara's sake, Molly's Catholic upbringing highlighted in exchange between Friedah & Murphy, Harry's reference to Mab marrying Lara, etc
Yeah, no. I think you have wishful thinking there. Why did Molly give Lara a death stare in chapter 2 of BG. There is nothing going on between them.
Maybe I'm missing that your pulling our legs
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Yeah, no. I think you have wishful thinking there. Why did Molly give Lara a death stare in chapter 2 of BG. There is nothing going on between them.
Maybe I'm missing that your pulling our legs
Not pulling your legs, just expressing a theory. By chapter 2 of BG the relationship has been going for a while. The frosties started when Lara first talked to Mab about " a closer relationship ". If Molly were involved with Lara, how would her devote Catholic parents take THAT ... on top of being Winter Lady ... and compromising her soul?
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Yeah, I have to say your reaching in that theory. Sorry. Nothing has shown that Molly has ever had any idea of having a relationship with Lara. But we have had multiple times shown to us that she would stay away from any relationship with the WCourt. Example: Cold Case. Didn't go well for Carlos. Another example: Molly almost dying in TC. If she didn't 8the shield up in time she would have been fed on by Thomas.
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Yeah, I have to say your reaching in that theory. Sorry. Nothing has shown that Molly has ever had any idea of having a relationship with Lara. But we have had multiple times shown to us that she would stay away from any relationship with the WCourt. Example: Cold Case. Didn't go well for Carlos. Another example: Molly almost dying in TC. If she didn't 8the shield up in time she would have been fed on by Thomas.
Both excellent points but Mab explains why the mantel protected itself against Carlos. Kind of hard for Lara to get Molly PG. The shield came up because Molly knew it wasn't Thomas but The Hunger.
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It seems to me that Mab has probably more than one or two reasons for wanting to marry Harry to Lara.
I'd argue, given what we've seen in recent books, that Mab always tries to protect Harry (despite Harry's objections that she would only care for a Knight who can protect himself, she's been doing a lot to help him or prevent him from doing mistakes). So I assume that her main reason for her to make them marry is to protect Harry. She wanted it to happen right away. Why? Most people thought it was to torture Harry, but what had just happened? Harry had just been kicked off the WC, so he's basically defenseless. An alliance/marriage with Lara would mean one thing to Harry's potential enemies: if you attack him, you attack the WCV. Mab cannot protect her Knight openly, or it would make him look weak, but by giving him an ally who is basically a Chief of State of an Accorded Nation, attacking Harry would mean a lot more to potential random enemies (it's not gonna stop Mavra or some crazies/really powerful enemies, but it can stop others).
Second, Mab has to repay the favors she owes to Lara, and from her point of view, there's no reason not to strengthen Winter's position by making a more permanent and reliable ally out of the WCV, especially since Lara is such a good political player.
Third, the marriage is meant to piss off Molly, and to basically tell her to forget her human emotions and to start acting like a Queen of Winter. Mab said she was lacking and too dangerous to become Mab right now. Considering what we've seen about Mab, it's probably about being "cold" enough to put your feelings aside and do what's necessary. And Molly can't say no to Harry and will always run to help him, even if it means somewhat endangering her duties as a Winter Queen or exhausting herself and leaving her vulnerable.
Fourth, it widens the gap between Harry and the WC. From what we've seen at the end of BG, the Accorded Nations don't trust the WC, or they would have invited them to their private talks. One-Eye and Mab at least know that they're probably at least somewhat directed by either Nemesis or the Black Council (or both). It also protects Harry from the WC, because basically killing Harry would mean waging war on two Accorded Nations, which even the WC might be reluctant to do, especially in their weakened state.
Fifth, it protects Harry from Lara. She might be a "good guy" nowadays, but she still puts her interests or that of her family/Court first. Making Harry part of that family would make her less likely to kill him for political reasons.
Also, I agree that Lara totally knew what she was asking. She's completely in femme fatale falling for the detective mode right now. Freydis told us as much in PT.
This is very well phrased and tracks with my thinking. Plus, it'll (hopefully) give us a dumpster fire for a wedding that will be absolutely hysterical to read. "The wedding cake was on fire and it was my grandfather's fault."
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And (not sure I have posted that already somewhere) maybe Mab intends Lara to teach Harry how to behave diplomatically on political events. To prepare him for a more politically active role for Winter.
This. Only it's Mab's special teaching (like her style of physical therapy). When Harry is consort to the White Queen, there will be a whole court of socially-adept manipulative succubi and incubi gunning for him. It's sink or swim time.
The most grievous wounds he took in Peace Talks/Battle Ground were on the social battlefield. He lost the friendship and trust of Ramirez and the political support of Martha Liberty... lost face in front of the whole Accords with his Freydis/Lara shenanigans... damaged his relationship with his grandfather... and ended up being looked at by Chicagoans like a monster rather than a savior.
He really needs to learn to defend his reputation and relationships -- and joining the White Court will be the social combat boot camp from Hell.
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Didn't we learn in an earlier book that a single "normal" feeding from a WCV is not particularly harmful and it's akin to the victim getting some very strenuous exercise? The problem occurs because of repeated feedings, the addiction and the accumulated damage.
It seems as if Dresden repeatedly describes his routine for keeping the Winter Knight's mantle in check as incredibly strenuous exercise -- running miles on the beach weighted down, etc. So, it would seem that Harry probably has the fatal aspects of being married to Lara covered.
I suppose that if Mab instructed Lara not to attempt to use the WCV "whammy" on Harry, that it would cover the other bad effects.
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Oh she is simply too old for him. ::)
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Mab is older.
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My WAG on the what went down in my best guess timetable
1. The Wvamps release the "How To" info to Bram Stoker causing the Blamps (Black Court Vamps) to be almost wiped out. Dracul carries a grudge.
2. Mauvra makes a deal with Bianca to train her in magic so she can assend, kill Dresden, etc, etc in exchange for the Ramps help in wiping out the Wamps. This didn't turn out so well for Bianca.
3. Harry gets the Word and gives it to Mauvra. Que sinister foreboding music.
4. Lara hires Vadderung and Valkyrie, learns the Blamps have something going on as pay back. One-Eye tells her the best person to help against that is Dresden.
5. Lara calls in her markers with Mab to have use of the Winter Knight with an option of retaining him long term. The remaining 2 favors are up to Harry and Lara to work out.
6. The Thomas assassination attempt creates problems in Lara's plans.
7. Poorly crafted and executed (Mab's opinion) rescue puts Winter in a very bad light with the Accorded Nations. Molly, checking up on Harry's negotiations with Lara, finds out that they are in fact bull riding in the exercise room. This triggers Molly's Mantel with jealousy but more strongly territorialism. After all that is Winter's (her) Knight. Three nations (Mab, Odin, Ferrovax) see the escape, Mab is NOT impressed.
8.Everyone survives the battle and Lara says she wants the Winter Knight's service (not marriage) going forward but leaves too much wiggle room for Mab.
Up next, a subplot of the Blamps attacking the Wamps. Harry, the betrothed, helps his future bride as is required but violates Council of Weasels, er, Wizards rules and they order his execution.
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There is something going on between Lara and Molly, whether it's simply a matter of Molly not wanting Lara to have Harry or something unknown to us. However if looks could kill, turn you into an ice cube and ship you off to Siberia, that is the stare that Molly gave Lara when they landed on shore after battling the Kracken. Molly wasn't happy about the marriage proposal/order, that much is clear, but
unlike Harry, she knows better than to fight the boss, and kept Harry from doing the same.
If the marriage doesn't happen it will be because Molly will have come up with a solution that won't allow it. I know, Harry can let Thomas out of jail, Mab can heal him and then marry him, the White Court/Winter Court alliance would still be good. I've never heard that Thomas and Justine were married.
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I know, Harry can let Thomas out of jail, Mab can heal him and then marry him, the White Court/Winter Court alliance would still be good. I've never heard that Thomas and Justine were married.
A possible avenue but isn't Thomas being eaten by his Hunger? So much so that Lara said it would kill him? I thought that was one strong reason Harry put him in crystal, to stop the Hunger as well as prevent location spell work. Does any in Winter or the White Court care about human marriage?
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A possible avenue but isn't Thomas being eaten by his Hunger? So much so that Lara said it would kill him? I thought that was one strong reason Harry put him in crystal, to stop the Hunger as well as prevent location spell work. Does any in Winter or the White Court care about human marriage?
This is what happens when I post on little sleep, a "cure" is found, or at the very least, Mab puts the Hunger to sleep, I think she can do that, until he is fed. Thomas is "fed" by volunteers under Mab's supervision, back to normal, the wedding takes place.
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There is something going on between Lara and Molly, whether it's simply a matter of Molly not wanting Lara to have Harry or something unknown to us. However if looks could kill, turn you into an ice cube and ship you off to Siberia, that is the stare that Molly gave Lara when they landed on shore after battling the Kracken. Molly wasn't happy about the marriage proposal/order, that much is clear, but
unlike Harry, she knows better than to fight the boss, and kept Harry from doing the same.
If the marriage doesn't happen it will be because Molly will have come up with a solution that won't allow it. I know, Harry can let Thomas out of jail, Mab can heal him and then marry him, the White Court/Winter Court alliance would still be good. I've never heard that Thomas and Justine were married.
And I hope that doesn't happen at all because A.) I'm looking forward to the dumpster fire that is a Harry/Lara wedding and marriage (oh, the humor that could be found in just the wedding alone!), and B.) I'm in the group that doesn't particularly care for Harry/Molly at all, so anything that delays or eliminates the chances of that is good to me. Different strokes and all that.
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And I hope that doesn't happen at all because A.) I'm looking forward to the dumpster fire that is a Harry/Lara wedding and marriage (oh, the humor that could be found in just the wedding alone!), and B.) I'm in the group that doesn't particularly care for Harry/Molly at all, so anything that delays or eliminates the chances of that is good to me. Different strokes and all that.
I whole heartedly agree with both points. Molly has stated that she has moved on and Harry has never had those feelings for her. Keep Molly a robust character and don't nerf her like that. A dumpster fire wedding would be fuel for so much!!!!
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I whole heartedly agree with both points. Molly has stated that she has moved on and Harry has never had those feelings for her. Keep Molly a robust character and don't nerf her like that. A dumpster fire wedding would be fuel for so much!!!!
Mab has to die for that pairing first.
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Mab has to die for that pairing first.
Or Mother Winter
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I whole heartedly agree with both points. Molly has stated that she has moved on and Harry has never had those feelings for her. Keep Molly a robust character and don't nerf her like that. A dumpster fire wedding would be fuel for so much!!!!
When did she say that she has moved on?
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Or Mother Winter
It is not wise to walk without your stick at that age.
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When did she say that she has moved on?
I think it was in Cold Days when they were riding in the Munster Mobile after Molly saved Harry from Lacuna. Not exactly sure though.
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I think it was in Cold Days when they were riding in the Munster Mobile after Molly saved Harry from Lacuna. Not exactly sure though.
No, she was telling him that she was still willing to be with him. That if he wanted her, she was willing. He told her no, not like that. That if/when it happens, it will be better than that, that she deserves better than that.
I don't think there is any scene in which she has moved on or tells him that she has moved on.
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No, she was telling him that she was still willing to be with him. That if he wanted her, she was willing. He told her no, not like that. That if/when it happens, it will be better than that, that she deserves better than that.
I don't think there is any scene in which she has moved on or tells him that she has moved on.
I stand corrected
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Is she talking about this here in BG?
Molly gave me a faint, grim smile and shook her head. “No. I get it. Losing someone you feel that way about. Having them taken away. It changes you for a while.”
I looked at her and winced.
I started to apologize.
She saw it coming, and smiled and shook her head firmly, even while tears formed in her eyes. “We’ve dealt with that already. That was pain and it happened and it was real and necessary, and now it’s in the past.”
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Is she talking about this here in BG?
Hard to say, but the last thing she will want to admit to anyone, especially with Mab's ears being everywhere that she has feelings for Harry. Molly isn't dumb, also the last person she'd want to know, is Harry. That wouldn't turn out well for either one of them.
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Is she talking about this here in BG?
My take on that was that she was talking about the suicide setup back in Changes. That's what she went through, loving Harry and then him being taken away from her with his death. She wasn't right for awhile, probably still isn't
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I was reading post talking about pagans and whether or not it was a defensive term I consider myself a pagan I don't find a defensive what I found fensive is when they said that pagans have no belief system of their own while I certainly do
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I was reading post talking about pagans and whether or not it was a defensive term I consider myself a pagan I don't find a defensive what I found fensive is when they said that pagans have no belief system of their own while I certainly do
I mean I think the point they were making is that historically speaking, 'Paganism' began as a pejorative catch-all term made up by Christians for all non-christian religions- the term applied equally to Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Celtic, basically any non-monotheistic religion and it was intentionally derogatory and labelled a vast number of different faiths and beliefs as the same, 'wrong' thing- it was the religious equivalent of calling someone an ill-bred peasant.
This is of course distinct from modern Neo-paganism, which is it's own thing, that happens to have the same name.
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It was intentionally derogatory and labelled a vast number of different faiths and beliefs as the same, 'wrong' thing- it was the religious equivalent of calling someone an ill-bred peasant.
It was almost literally calling someone a peasant. Peasant is "ultimately from the Latin pagus," according to Wikipedia. Also from Wikipedia:The term pagan is derived from Late Latin paganus, revived during the Renaissance. Itself deriving from classical Latin pagus which originally meant 'region delimited by markers', paganus had also come to mean 'of or relating to the countryside', 'country dweller', 'villager'; by extension, 'rustic', 'unlearned', 'yokel', 'bumpkin'; in Roman military jargon, 'non-combatant', 'civilian', 'unskilled soldier'.
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Is she talking about this here in BG?
Thank you Telynn, that is the exact conversation I was unsuccessfully trying to remember.
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My take on that was that she was talking about the suicide setup back in Changes. That's what she went through, loving Harry and then him being taken away from her with his death.
Absolutely
Oh she is simply too old for him. ::)
Is she older than Luccio (about 200-210 when she was dating Harry)?
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Is she older than Luccio (about 200-210 when she was dating Harry)?
I'm pretty sure Lara is much older than Luccio. Lara remembers Luccio's wild youth. Lara is Papa Raith's oldest child.
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I'm pretty sure Lara is much older than Luccio. Lara remembers Luccio's wild youth. Lara is Papa Raith's oldest child.
I think Lara is way older than Luccio, maybe by a couple of hundred years.
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I wouldn't be surprised if she was 1,000 years old. Is there anything form outside the novels and short stories on her age?
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I wouldn't be surprised if she was 1,000 years old. Is there anything form outside the novels and short stories on her age?
Not specifically, but 1,000 years sounds about right, for some reason it sticks in my head from a story, but I cannot remember which one it was.
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Absolutely
Thank you vultur. I thought I read that correctly.
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I think we can all agree that out of Luccio, Lara, Mab and Molly, Molly is by far the one that comes closest to Harrys age and maturity level. Even if we "just" pretended that the other three were 100 years old.
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Thank you vultur. I thought I read that correctly.
It seemed to me that she was referring to the whole relationship at the time. The best friend who realizes that those feeling will not be reciprocated and decided to get on with life. Still has feeling for the other but has put them aside for the sake of the friendship. Of course it is all part and parcel to the suicide. I never read it that she was over Harry, just that she had moved on from actively trying so hard.
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I wouldn't be surprised if she was 1,000 years old. Is there anything form outside the novels and short stories on her age?
Yes. Ish.
Papa Raith paints portraits of the mothers of his children. The oldest portrait is from, I think, the 16th century.
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Papa Raith has also shown no hesitation to whack his kids if they step out of line, so it would not surprise me - in fact, I'd be surprised if this wasn't the case - to learn that Lara is now his eldest child, with him having eaten or straight up murdered the previous eldest ones. As to her age, I think BrainFireBob has it closest with her being a little older than the Merlin and Eb, but nowhere near 1000.
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Yes. Ish.
Papa Raith paints portraits of the mothers of his children. The oldest portrait is from, I think, the 16th century.
Portrait painting as we understand it isn't much older
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Portrait painting as we understand it isn't much older
He might have a hall with painted statues somewhere in Toscane but painting statues went out of fashion.
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I think Lara is way older than Luccio, maybe by a couple of hundred years.
Still younger than Mab and Lashiel
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As to her age, I think BrainFireBob has it closest with her being a little older than the Merlin and Eb, but nowhere near 1000.
So oldest to youngest ....
Lashiel at over 2,100
Mab was a contemporary of Merlin (5th or 6th century wasn't he?) so say 1,400
Lara was from before portraits were popular so 500 or even 600
Luccio 210
Molly 30
He does like 'em older ...
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So oldest to youngest ....
Lashiel at over 2,100
Mab was a contemporary of Merlin (5th or 6th century wasn't he?) so say 1,400
Lara was from before portraits were popular so 500 or even 600
Luccio 210
Molly 30
He does like 'em older ...
If you're talking preference, I think his past loves Elaine, Susan and Murphy kind of matter too - and those weren't old.
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If you're talking preference, I think his past loves Elaine, Susan and Murphy kind of matter too - and those weren't old.
My comment was definitely tongue in cheek
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So oldest to youngest ....
Lashiel at over 2,100
Mab was a contemporary of Merlin (5th or 6th century wasn't he?) so say 1,400
Lara was from before portraits were popular so 500 or even 600
Luccio 210
Molly 30
He does like 'em older ...
What was it, that Harry's Alter-Id said about Luccio? "There's something to be said about experience."
On a different tack, Mab said something about Lara; which is open to different interpretations, but one of those relates directly to Harry. After Harry told Mab that she was forcing him into something that shouldn't be forced, the Queen of Air and Darkness replied, "Yes, I am. Because I judge it necessary. Our world has just become infinitely more uncertain and dangerous. We must become stronger and more stable to face it, securing both the appearance and fact of a secure alliance with a competent partner. This is more important than any given person or their petty desires. Including yours."
I think the obvious interpretation is that Mab wants to secure Lara Raith; someone Mab sees as highly competent, as an ally. However, there could also be a second meaning here. Mab may also believe her Knight needs a competent partner to work with and Lara Raith could help Harry; I not certain here, make Harry a better, more effective monster weapon.
Mab is not trying to create a Love Connection and Harry's dates with Lara won't look like an episode of The Bachelor. I could see Harry saying to Mab, "You know Lara will try to enslave and devour me." To which Mab will reply, "Don't be ridiculous, I saw the burns on Ms. Raith. She got them touching you, didn't she? You're protected from Lara Raith and any of the other Raiths." Harry will then fallback. "You know that protection can very easily be lost." Mab: "Then you'd better hold on to it, especially as you may be married to Lara Raith for some time." Harry, "Wait, I'm going to be married to the Queen of the Succubi, but I have to remain celibate?" Mab: "You've been celibate before and you rejected the entreaties the numerous sidhe ladies who made their desires known to you at your birthday party. Really wizard, I don't see how this is any different. Plus, didn't you say that you didn't want Lara Raith to enslave you? This is the most effective way to prevent that from happening."
By the way, in a very recent interview Jim said that over the next year he will release some fiction that will show Harry over the next 12 months making official visits and appearances as the Winter Knight. Presumably Lara Raith will be at these functions. Jim didn't say if this will be a short story or microfiction.
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By the way, in a very recent interview Jim said that over the next year he will release some fiction that will show Harry over the next 12 months making official visits and appearances as the Winter Knight. Presumably Lara Raith will be at these functions. Jim didn't say if this will be a short story or microfiction.
Oh good, but does he have any clue as to when he will write the next book?
On a different tack, Mab said something about Lara; which is open to different interpretations, but one of those relates directly to Harry. After Harry told Mab that she was forcing him into something that shouldn't be forced, the Queen of Air and Darkness replied, "Yes, I am. Because I judge it necessary. Our world has just become infinitely more uncertain and dangerous. We must become stronger and more stable to face it, securing both the appearance and fact of a secure alliance with a competent partner. This is more important than any given person or their petty desires. Including yours."
I think Mab is underestimating Harry and it has been a long time since she was with anyone in a marriage or something close. Her cemented alliance could totally blow up in a few years or less if
the two people in question really come to work against one another.
Mab is not trying to create a Love Connection and Harry's dates with Lara won't look like an episode of The Bachelor. I could see Harry saying to Mab, "You know Lara will try to enslave and devour me." To which Mab will reply, "Don't be ridiculous, I saw the burns on Ms. Raith. She got them touching you, didn't she? You're protected from Lara Raith and any of the other Raiths." Harry will then fallback. "You know that protection can very easily be lost." Mab: "Then you'd better hold on to it, especially as you may be married to Lara Raith for some time." Harry, "Wait, I'm going to be married to the Queen of the Succubi, but I have to remain celibate?" Mab: "You've been celibate before and you rejected the entreaties the numerous sidhe ladies who made their desires known to you at your birthday party. Really wizard, I don't see how this is any different. Plus, didn't you say that you didn't want Lara Raith to enslave you? This is the most effective way to prevent that from happening."
As I said, Mab has no clue, I think it will blow up in her face, especially since it appears that Molly is on his side and Lara doesn't appear to be thrilled about it either. So I think the three of them will come up with a solution, and Mab will say that was what she wanted all along but they needed an incentive to make it happen. Then she will add that, wasn't she clever to work it the way that she did?
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If Lara, Molly and Harry find some smart and better way to give Mab what she wants she will only applaud it. Purpose triumphs everything.
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If Lara, Molly and Harry find some smart and better way to give Mab what she wants she will only applaud it. Purpose triumphs everything.
I think that is what I said? She will also let them know how clever she was to set it up like she did, so they'd figure out a way to come up with the most effective solution.
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What was it, that Harry's Alter-Id said about Luccio? "There's something to be said about experience."
LOL yes
Mab is not trying to create a Love Connection and Harry's dates with Lara won't look like an episode of The Bachelor.
What??!!?? A female character that isn't reduced to chasing Harry around with her uterus? Mab doesn't underestimate anyone or anything. She puts multiple plans in action to cover any outcome. Maybe Lara will succeed in pulling Harry's narcissistic head out of his sanctimonious rear long enough to get a breath of fresh air.
... and Molly deserves better!!
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A few things I haven't seen mentioned that are worth noting:
Mab was proud Harry didn't give into the Winter Mantle. Then Murph dies and he does give in until the knights stop him. I say she DOES care about his mental/emotional state, because the last lady/knight for winter let the mantel run them which was why they had to be eliminated. It wasn't just about replacing the missing political link between the White Court and Winter, it was about trying to help Harry avoid the fate of the last Winter Knight. Mab has heavily invested in him and doesn't want it all spoiled by the death of one mortal.
And Harry just finishes lecturing them about making the situation right with the mortal world, when Mab decides he gets a replacement romantic interest. IMO, he kinda brought this one on himself.
And I strongly think she's planning something that has nothing to do with the marriage or politics, but needs both these two together. Call it fae foresight for the future books.
IMO both Molly and Harry may end up leaving the Winter Court in the future, after the coming implosion of the White Council happens, and both are safe from their threats. I can see Elaine becoming the Winter Lady in place of Molly. I suspect Harry will end up Merlin in the Post-White-Council meltdown aftermath, and him marrying his original love, Elaine as the bridge to Winter. Mab could potentially gain more by not keeping them on her team forever, but just sheltering them until the Wizard world gets it's crap together.
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IMO both Molly and Harry may end up leaving the Winter Court in the future, after the coming implosion of the White Council happens, and both are safe from their threats. I can see Elaine becoming the Winter Lady in place of Molly. I suspect Harry will end up Merlin in the Post-White-Council meltdown aftermath, and him marrying his original love, Elaine as the bridge to Winter. Mab could potentially gain more by not keeping them on her team forever, but just sheltering them until the Wizard world gets it's crap together.
Actually I had a thought about that while walking the dogs this morning. Butters rendered a great service to Mab by pulling the iron rebar out of her neck. She told him she owes him a favor. So what if in the end after the BAT is over Butters calls in his favor, Mab must free both Harry and Molly from their mantles.
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I've always thought Harry's ability to resist the winter mantle is what makes him an excellent winter knight actually yes. It's meant to mold you not by what it does, but by how you must resist it.
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A few things I haven't seen mentioned that are worth noting:
Mab was proud Harry didn't give into the Winter Mantle. Then Murph dies and he does give in until the knights stop him. I say she DOES care about his mental/emotional state, because the last lady/knight for winter let the mantel run them which was why they had to be eliminated. It wasn't just about replacing the missing political link between the White Court and Winter, it was about trying to help Harry avoid the fate of the last Winter Knight. Mab has heavily invested in him and doesn't want it all spoiled by the death of one mortal.
And Harry just finishes lecturing them about making the situation right with the mortal world, when Mab decides he gets a replacement romantic interest. IMO, he kinda brought this one on himself.
And I strongly think she's planning something that has nothing to do with the marriage or politics, but needs both these two together. Call it fae foresight for the future books.
IMO both Molly and Harry may end up leaving the Winter Court in the future, after the coming implosion of the White Council happens, and both are safe from their threats. I can see Elaine becoming the Winter Lady in place of Molly. I suspect Harry will end up Merlin in the Post-White-Council meltdown aftermath, and him marrying his original love, Elaine as the bridge to Winter. Mab could potentially gain more by not keeping them on her team forever, but just sheltering them until the Wizard world gets it's crap together.
Excellent points all!!!
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Actually I had a thought about that while walking the dogs this morning. Butters rendered a great service to Mab by pulling the iron rebar out of her neck. She told him she owes him a favor. So what if in the end after the BAT is over Butters calls in his favor, Mab must free both Harry and Molly from their mantles.
That is probably too big, you must be careful with these things. Harry was very smart to only ask for a doughnut.
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Actually I had a thought about that while walking the dogs this morning. Butters rendered a great service to Mab by pulling the iron rebar out of her neck. She told him she owes him a favor. So what if in the end after the BAT is over Butters calls in his favor, Mab must free both Harry and Molly from their mantles.
Also an excellent possibility
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That is probably too big, you must be careful with these things. Harry was very smart to only ask for a doughnut.
Yeah, but based on what he said to Eb in Peace Talks, he now ask for two donuts.. ::)
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Well, in a way, Butters removed something from Mab that restrained her and would have led to her death. Butters trying to claim that removing the Lady mantle from Molly might be equal, in the loosest of terms.
But getting both seems highly unlikely. And I doubt he'll try. No doubt something else will come up. Like Butters asking Harry be freed from something he didn't want to be restrained by against his will, a.k.a. the engagement.
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I think we can all agree that out of Luccio, Lara, Mab and Molly, Molly is by far the one that comes closest to Harrys age and maturity level. Even if we "just" pretended that the other three were 100 years old.
I'm not sure about Mab and Lara's maturity levels, but otherwise totally. I still irrationally ship Elaine.
Yes. Ish.
Papa Raith paints portraits of the mothers of his children. The oldest portrait is from, I think, the 16th century.
(Kind of a retread of what Rigil Kent said, but...) Without looking back, I don't remember when the oldest portrait is from, but I do recall that I got the impression that there were more paintings than children. If that's the case, then Lara is the oldest living Raith child. I don't know if we have anything close to an accurate count on the children or the paintings.
Oh good, but does he have any clue as to when he will write the next book?
After he finishes the Olympian Affair.
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(Kind of a retread of what Rigil Kent said, but...) Without looking back, I don't remember when the oldest portrait is from, but I do recall that I got the impression that there were more paintings than children. If that's the case, then Lara is the oldest living Raith child. I don't know if we have anything close to an accurate count on the children or the paintings.
In Blood Rites Lara told Thomas that a number of her brothers and sisters had plotted against Lord Raith and they had all died. So, it's quite possible that Lara wasn't the oldest child or even the oldest daughter, just the oldest surviving child.
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In Blood Rites Lara told Thomas that a number of her brothers and sisters had plotted against Lord Raith and they had all died. So, it's quite possible that Lara wasn't the oldest child or even the oldest daughter, just the oldest surviving child.
Very possible, because I seem to remember that Lord Raith routinely killed off his sons one way or another to prevent the rise of a rival. The only reason Thomas had survived is he considered him too weak to be a threat, he was also looking for a chance to kill him when it would aid in breaking Margaret's death curse. It would make sense, that Lara, who inherited her father's brains and his ruthlessness when she chooses to use it, saw her sisters as competition and killed them off or saw to it that they met with accidents.
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Very possible, because I seem to remember that Lord Raith routinely killed off his sons one way or another to prevent the rise of a rival. The only reason Thomas had survived is he considered him too weak to be a threat, he was also looking for a chance to kill him when it would aid in breaking Margaret's death curse. It would make sense, that Lara, who inherited her father's brains and his ruthlessness when she chooses to use it, saw her sisters as competition and killed them off or saw to it that they met with accidents.
Or, even better - White Night style, pushed them to plot against daddy.
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Or, even better - White Night style, pushed them to plot against daddy.
While she stood back and watched as kind of a "Daddy's girl." ::)
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Has anyone considered that the marriage is a way to redeem the White Court? Mab has a long-term plan for them, and the marriage is part of it.
We need to know more about the origin of the White Court, it must tie into the predecessor beings of the Queens of Faerie.
Besides Lara has to comply with this old charm on her wedding day, and wear:-
Something old,
Something new,
Something borrowed,
Something blue.
There is likely plenty old she can wear, Etruscan? Something new jewellery of some kind as a gift. Something borrowed, most likely from Mab, (and that is going to bite her) something blue? Carlos Testicles?
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It would make sense, that Lara, who inherited her father's brains and his ruthlessness when she chooses to use it, saw her sisters as competition and killed them off or saw to it that they met with accidents.
I don't think so. She values family. Lord Raith didn't.
Has anyone considered that the marriage is a way to redeem the White Court? Mab has a long-term plan for them, and the marriage is part of it.
Why would Mab need them to be redeemed? She's fine with monsters. She probably prefers them.
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I don't think so. She values family. Lord Raith didn't.
She may value family once her rivals are dead. She may value those younger than herself because she doesn't see them as a threat. Thomas isn't interested in power, and Inari wasn't interested in being a vamp, and isn't one if it was true love and she managed to burn out her Hunger Demon before it got started.
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Has anyone considered that the marriage is a way to redeem the White Court? Mab has a long-term plan for them, and the marriage is part of it.
We need to know more about the origin of the White Court, it must tie into the predecessor beings of the Queens of Faerie.
Besides Lara has to comply with this old charm on her wedding day, and wear:-
Something old,
Something new,
Something borrowed,
Something blue.
There is likely plenty old she can wear, Etruscan? Something new jewellery of some kind as a gift. Something borrowed, most likely from Mab, (and that is going to bite her) something blue? Carlos Testicles?
I don't know about redeeming the entire White Court. However, the last time I reread White Night; specifically Harry's final conversation with Lash, and even more specifically, when Harry had an epiphany that the Black Court of vampires has a connection with the Outsiders, instead of wondering what that connection might be, I started thinking about the other vampire courts.
The Red King was the progenitor of the Red Court, but what created him? Seeing as the Red Court is most likely totally dead and gone we may never find out or perhaps it will get mentioned in passing. More important and I think more interesting is the creation of the White Court. Uriel told Harry at the end of Ghost Story that the road of a White Court vampire was a difficult one. Something about being mortal but having the difficulties of immortality. Lately, I have been thinking that Uriel was hinting at something. Perhaps the creation of the White Court wasn't a cosmic accident. Perhaps they were created with a purpose in mind. A purpose so important that it was worth gifting them with the monstrous tendencies their demon gives them. I think they were meant to keep the other vampire courts in check, back when mortals had only a very limited ability to do this themselves. So it might be possible that Lara could be redeemed, though I'm not betting on that happening.
There is one other factor that could possibly change Lara Raith or any White Court vampire, though not necessarily for the better. What I'm thinking about could go either way. Harry has a proven ability to change the nature of some supernatural creatures by giving them names, or more accurately, by renaming them. So far, Harry has referred to Lara as Pheromone Lass in one book and as an apex sexual predator in Peace Talks. Neither of these names has stuck as a nickname. It seems that Harry will be spending a lot more time with Lara, which increases the chance he will come up with a nickname for her. If Lara starts to respond to that name you will know it is having an effect.
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I don't know about redeeming the entire White Court. However, the last time I reread White Night; specifically Harry's final conversation with Lash, and even more specifically, when Harry had an epiphany that the Black Court of vampires has a connection with the Outsiders, instead of wondering what that connection might be, I started thinking about the other vampire courts.
Didn't that go the same for the White Court? Vittorio was possessed, Justine, though vanilla mortal but has close contact with the White Court, she is possessed. Something very empty nightish possesses Lord Raith and keeps him from being killed by magic, but though the hints scream Nemesis/Outsider, Jim hasn't told us yet.
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She may value family once her rivals are dead.
She only stood up to Lord Raith because he didn't value family. If you think Lara doesn't value family, I'd suggest rereading Ch. 41 of BR starting with the line where Harry says "He was my blood."
Didn't that go the same for the White Court? Vittorio was possessed, Justine, though vanilla mortal but has close contact with the White Court, she is possessed. Something very empty nightish possesses Lord Raith and keeps him from being killed by magic, but though the hints scream Nemesis/Outsider, Jim hasn't told us yet.
That's just members of the White Court. We can be fairly certain that the whole White Court isn't subject to Outsiders as there have been repeated Outsider infiltrations and power plays there.
It's the entirety of the Black Court.
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when Harry had an epiphany that the Black Court of vampires has a connection with the Outsiders, instead of wondering what that connection might be, I started thinking about the other vampire courts.
Could you quote this part about Black Court. I cannot remember it.
The Red King was the progenitor of the Red Court, but what created him?
My bet is - Red King started as a result of some ancient wizard experiments with something like hexenwofs but linked to bat-vampire bestialic aspect rather than wolf. Some fort of mix of ancient totemism and shapeshifting with demon, not necessary Outsiders cult. Then he was able to pass this demon through infection, just like WC pass their demons to their children. Sort of like permanently active hexenbelt in your blood.
But then of course Red Court summoned Outsiders to fight White Council so...
A purpose so important that it was worth gifting them with the monstrous tendencies their demon gives them. I think they were meant to keep the other vampire courts in check, back when mortals had only a very limited ability to do this themselves. So it might be possible that Lara could be redeemed, though I'm not betting on that happening.
Dunno. Overall they seem to be too corrupted as whole, with too little of them redeemable.
Not to mention - Black Court is rather way younger (Dracula founded them), only Reds from mayor ones had as ancient origin like Whites, maybe even older.
So doubt. I think White Court is what is it - someone once made a bad mistake of cursing someone with generational curse or linking demon to own bloodline and it went from there. I think in the end it's quite simple pattern. And even naagloshii considered Lara as a mere phage.
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Could you quote this part about Black Court. I cannot remember it.
...
But then of course Red Court summoned Outsiders to fight White Council so...
[Harry thinking at Lash]After which, we were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell was going on.
Lasciel-Lash, rather-nodded once and said, "I will tell you all that I can, Harry."
Harry's stated explanation was that mortal allies were summoning Outsiders for the Red Court. He could have been wrong.
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Could you quote this part about Black Court. I cannot remember it.
In Chapter 41 of White Night
Lasciel leaned closer. "He Who Walks Behind is an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities. But when he came for you, you overthrew him." ...
Thud-thump : 1:25.
"Listen," Lasciel said, giving my head a little shake. "You have the potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you. If you are sure it is what you want, I can give you an opportunity to defy Malvora's sending. But you'll have to hurry. I don't know how long it will take to throw it off, and they are almost upon you."
After which, we were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell was going on.
Lasciel - Lash, rather - nodded once and said, "I will tell you all that I can, Harry."
What I am wondering is when Harry will driven to ask Bonea about the Outsiders and what it means to be Starborn, seeing as she knows everything Lash knew. I have little doubt that the next time Harry talks to LTW; assuming the Senior Council member doesn't die before a year has past, he will be told that the Senior Council, or those SC members who are in the know, don't trust Harry enough to inform him. I doubt anything Harry does as a non-White Council member will increase their confidence in him.
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After which, we were going to have a long talk about my mother and these Outsiders and their relation to the Black Court and exactly what the hell was going on.
Given that line, it makes more sense that Drakul and Mavra would suddenly show up at the beginning of the battle. They were doing their part in the diversion and the sewing of chaos in the middle of things. That doesn't exclude the White Court from a close association with the Outsiders, I believe they also do.
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I resurrect this thread to say that this quote by Nivarius pretty much summarizes what I think
It seems to me that Mab has probably more than one or two reasons for wanting to marry Harry to Lara.
I'd argue, given what we've seen in recent books, that Mab always tries to protect Harry (despite Harry's objections that she would only care for a Knight who can protect himself, she's been doing a lot to help him or prevent him from doing mistakes). So I assume that her main reason for her to make them marry is to protect Harry. She wanted it to happen right away. Why? Most people thought it was to torture Harry, but what had just happened? Harry had just been kicked off the WC, so he's basically defenseless. An alliance/marriage with Lara would mean one thing to Harry's potential enemies: if you attack him, you attack the WCV. Mab cannot protect her Knight openly, or it would make him look weak, but by giving him an ally who is basically a Chief of State of an Accorded Nation, attacking Harry would mean a lot more to potential random enemies (it's not gonna stop Mavra or some crazies/really powerful enemies, but it can stop others).
Second, Mab has to repay the favors she owes to Lara, and from her point of view, there's no reason not to strengthen Winter's position by making a more permanent and reliable ally out of the WCV, especially since Lara is such a good political player.
Third, the marriage is meant to piss off Molly, and to basically tell her to forget her human emotions and to start acting like a Queen of Winter. Mab said she was lacking and too dangerous to become Mab right now. Considering what we've seen about Mab, it's probably about being "cold" enough to put your feelings aside and do what's necessary. And Molly can't say no to Harry and will always run to help him, even if it means somewhat endangering her duties as a Winter Queen or exhausting herself and leaving her vulnerable.
Fourth, it widens the gap between Harry and the WC. From what we've seen at the end of BG, the Accorded Nations don't trust the WC, or they would have invited them to their private talks. One-Eye and Mab at least know that they're probably at least somewhat directed by either Nemesis or the Black Council (or both). It also protects Harry from the WC, because basically killing Harry would mean waging war on two Accorded Nations, which even the WC might be reluctant to do, especially in their weakened state.
Fifth, it protects Harry from Lara. She might be a "good guy" nowadays, but she still puts her interests or that of her family/Court first. Making Harry part of that family would make her less likely to kill him for political reasons.
Also, I agree that Lara totally knew what she was asking. She's completely in femme fatale falling for the detective mode right now. Freydis told us as much in PT.
Also, what Regenbogen said about the courting teaching Harry some social skills, basically.
That said, I hope in the end they don't marry. I am not interested in Harry's being married.
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I resurrect this thread to say that this quote by Nivarius pretty much summarizes what I thinkAlso, what Regenbogen said about the courting teaching Harry some social skills, basically.
That said, I hope in the end they don't marry. I am not interested in Harry's being married.
Except that I do not believe marrying Lara would make him really part of the family. That is not how vampires look at non vampire spouses.
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He does not need to be considered "family" but "under the protection" for alliance.
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He does not need to be considered "family" but "under the protection" for alliance.
At least he is not disposable and food. He symbolises the alliance with winter.
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And it gave Lara an excuse to protecting him without subterfuges. And, as she needs him alive, it is good that she can protect it "officially."
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That's assuming of course Lara is not about to bring Empty Night on Earth :3
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That's assuming of course Lara is not about to bring Empty Night on Earth :3
She could have been infected by Justine.
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She could do it - because that's ancient purpose of White Court :3
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Except that I do not believe marrying Lara would make him really part of the family. That is not how vampires look at non vampire spouses.
White Court Vampires don't marry. See Job Placement (https://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/side-jobs/microfiction-job-placement (https://www.jim-butcher.com/books/dresden/side-jobs/microfiction-job-placement)).
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Nevertheless, Lara has been married before, I believe.
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Nevertheless, Lara has been married before, I believe.
Correct. I think Lara mentioned it in Blood Rites. However, we don't know the circumstances. It might have been a teenage Lara running off with some guy. Unfortunately for that unknown person, that pairing wasn't a true love relationship and Lara ended up devouring her first lover. If Lara married after she knew what she was and is, then it was deliberate murder for a specific purpose or to settle a particular grudge.
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Depends who she married and how much she consumated it
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Depends who she married and how much she consumated it
This. I got the idea that the marriage we are talking about was a few years ago, centuries later than Lara discovering who she is. So, she probably married him for gaining some advantage (money, connections, option of traveling far away her father's place, I don't know. But I don't know if she killed him. Or how much time they were together.
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Some here have always theorized that her marriage was to her first kill and someone she actually cared about. I don't know, though.
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She may have killed him and cared for him too, but I don't think he was his first because, as I said, I've got the feeling the marriage had been recent. And she is very old.