So I just realized something about the Hades sequence in Skin Game. Nicodemus and his crew were doomed the moment Harry beat them to the treasures. One of the most well known supernatural properties of the Spear of Longinus is that whoever is holding it is either literally invulnerable, or otherwise can't be beaten in battle.Assuming it takes nothing additional to activate? Yup :)
And Harry has the head of the spear up his sleeve the whole time.
Assuming it was the Lance, and assuming it really does grant invulnerability/undefeatability.Well, the fake shroud had power just because people believed in it, remember. I could see widespread belief adding or modifying the spear's "actual" powers, whatever they may be.
According to the text of Skin Game, Hades is quite the collector, and as any collector would, he would value authenticity. He obviously had the resources to verify.
It's authentic yes, but that isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not speculation is correct that it IS the spear of Longinus. It doesn't say what exactly it is in the book except that it was a knife. And knifes aren't spears exactly, only if its the tip of said spear.This is true. The vault was Vault 7, housing artifacts of "western religious significance" and the contents were all described as christian directly, or were general art from periods dominated by christian imagery. The pedestal contained 5 artifacts, only two of which are explicitly identified (Grail and Shroud); the Crown of Thorns is kinda obvious though. That's 3/5 of the artifacts being Crusafixion-related, with the placard easily fitting as well (but being an extremely generic object so its hard to confirm without knowing the writing on it). The Spear is the only bladed object I know of related to that field, but it could be something else with a connection not part of the popular myth (something specific to the DV perhaps).
Assuming it was the Lance, and assuming it really does grant invulnerability/undefeatability.Or that merely holding it was enough, as in knowing that just holding it gave one invulnerability.. Nothing is usually that simple..
I think you need to find a public version of your spoiler image.Not working? Damn. photobucket's stopped working in the last few weeks, and Id hoped Id gotten Drive to do it. There's a link around here somewhere. one sec
I'd wondered whether the fact that he had that up his sleeve when he threw the hilt of Fidelacchius to his friends contributed to the blade's transformation.Id have to check but Im pretty sure it was in his pocket by then. He'd done an awful lot of physical activity since then, individually fought and defeated two different Denarians, then got thrown onto horse-back
Im still hoping he mounts in on his Wizard's staff, to get a cool magic spear like Odin
The blade was the same as was used to kill Lloyd slate if you look. Also Woj is it's specifically medea's bodkin, her atheme, not saying that keeps it from being the lance head. I mention it because if it's good vs outsiders might not another Jason's era item show itself on the other side of the equation(click to show/hide)
A Wizard's staff is supposed to have a Knob on the end, not a Knife.I'm sure Harry would prefer no one discuss his knob or lack thereof ;D
I'm sure Harry would prefer no one discuss his knob or lack thereof ;D
Why would Hades' vault have a Knife that we know Mab has in it? Do you really think that Mab would give up an item of that level of Power?Why don't you go look beforehand you make this argument... The knife has purpose, if mab truly needed it it was hers.... It's a mortal weapon though, not for mabs usage anyways.
Why don't you go look beforehand you make this argument... The knife has purpose, if mab truly needed it it was hers.... It's a mortal weapon though, not for mabs usage anyways.
Why don't you provide some evidence that they're the same knife then?I am, it's in the books descriptions, go read them. I don't have them with me, already done this before ages ago with tcf.
Why don't you go look beforehand you make this argument... The knife has purpose, if mab truly needed it it was hers.... It's a mortal weapon though, not for mabs usage anyways.
And yet Harry makes no mention of the fact that the knife he used to slit a man's throat was somehow suddenly in Hades' vault.He was quite destructed in both instances, if I'm right he'll know in pt/ mention it.
He was quite destructed in both instances, if I'm right he'll know in pt/ mention it.
#distracted, sorry autocorrect text....
And this is wear you stop posting anything positive and drip you sarcastic disbelief over everything. He was distracted but described the knife from a writers perspective as to leave clue's for us the reader. I know you won't see anything you don't wanna though so by all means believe what you wish.
Jim told US it was medeas bodkin, Harry doesn't know this.
Unless you can give me some proof that only a single knife with a leaf-shaped blade exists in the Dresdenverse, I'm going to assume for now that they're different.And unless YOU can prove two knives described exactly the same I'll continue to believe them to be the same, it's tough, I guess we all just have to live with that then until Jim comes don from on neigh and we receive the holy word saying as to what must be what. I suppose in DB mab didn't have morgana's atheme on her hip either ???
Because like Eldest said, there is no way in hell Harry wouldn't stop to have an Angst-fest over a Knife that he used to commit a cold-blooded ritualistic murder showing up.
An ancient, ancient knife with a simple leaf shaped blade design, set into a wood handle and wrapped in cord and leather.it was i thought made of bronzeSG 339
A knife with a wooden handle and a leaf shaped blade.That he totally fails to notice the hilt or that it even has one is prof Harry isn't taking in all the details and those put forth were intentional. He only notices the hilt when it becomes central to the plot point of nic noticing the sound. (If not a mistake by Jim in that it's blade was bronze, a hilt isn't necessarily a handle btw, but this was either that, a pommel or a mistake and it should be bronze blade clicked, either way, wood handle)
sp you can catalogue all 5 items drom the crucifixion uh? then do so please. as actually you probly cannot place the plaq, orthe knife without making it a spear. and as was pointed out medea was before christ, it makes reworking it first to a spear then back again illogically done anyway.The plaque was on the cross with the letters INRI.
sp you can catalogue all 5 items drom the crucifixion uh? then do so please. as actually you probly cannot place the plaq, orthe knife without making it a spear. and as was pointed out medea was before christ, it makes reworking it first to a spear then back again illogically done anyway.
Lea claimed the tainted blade she received was a a match for the sword she traded away. I could easily see the blade from the vault becoming such a weapon, but that tainted blade make me wonder just what it is.Have you seen this WoJ?
What is the Black Athame, and what is it’s relation to Medea’s Bodkin?
The Black Athame was Morgan La Fay’s athame. That was the one that got traded around in Grave Peril… at the vampire costume party. Well an Athame is the original knife that was used in magic, and while they aren’t necessarily magical themselves, if you involve them in enough really cool big things that are going on, they start gaining their own sort of power and their own sort of awareness. Which is not to say they become intelligent or anything, but they become very extremely dangerous tools. And that one was a very, very dangerous tool, on a level with Ammoracchius, which is why it got traded that way. Medea’s Bodkin is another Athame that is far older, and is used more classically documented witches. The ones who actually survived falls of several empires there –you still hear about them- Also a very bad news kind of implement, just so you know.
A Wizard's staff is supposed to have a Knob on the end, not a Knife.Yes, but in Changes Odin was using his Spear (presumably Odin's mythic spear Gungnir) /as/ a wizards staff. It would appeal to me for harry to mount the spear of destiny on his staff, giving an upgrade to both. Its always been the point and not the shaft that was important in the histories, but if the shaft were an enchanted Wizards staff (especially the muiltpurpose, layered version he had in SG) it could be all kinds of fun.
Yes, but in Changes Odin was using his Spear (presumably Odin's mythic spear Gungnir) /as/ a wizards staff. It would appeal to me for harry to mount the spear of destiny on his staff, giving an upgrade to both. Its always been the point and not the shaft that was important in the histories, but if the shaft were an enchanted Wizards staff (especially the muiltpurpose, layered version he had in SG) it could be all kinds of fun.
Besides, Harry's staff will always have a knob at the end so long as he is the one holding it 8)Well played, sir ;D
While i do think the knife is the spear i don't think invulnerability is its power. Simply from a storytelling perspective giving your hero invincibility removes way to much tension, plus there's the fact that nic already has an artifact that shields him from almost all harm with the noose.Perhaps not "invulnerability" persay which as you say is too absolute to be much use in a storytelling sense, but perhaps the sort fo ridiculous good fortune that the Knights sometimes get. Or simply a benevolent version of an Entropy Curse?
also when i say i think the knife can kill an immortal i mean it can also kill the mantel that immortal holds, kill mab with it and there will be no winter queen again, think of the chaos that would causeThat's supposed to be Impossible, per the Mothers in SK. Mantles=Power=Conservation of Energy and all that. But a weapon that is essentially a portable Conjunction that allows Immortals to Die (and then their mantles do whatever that particular kind of Mantle does: move, scatter, go dormant, etc) would be a hell of a Game-Changer
If the blade is the point of the Spear of Longinus, I understand why some of us are thinking about Harry turning his staff into a spear, but what about the other artifacts? Does anyone have any ideas about how the Shroud, the Crown of Thorns or the sign with INRI could be used as weapons by Harry? (I assume Nicodemus will try to use the Grail to power some kind of curse.)
Harry said he would research the items. Has anyone done any research on the any of the other items? The Shroud seem less like a weapon then something you would use to bring back a fallen comrade. (Of course there will be catch to using it. Probably Harry will only be able to use it once and he will be forced to decide between Murphy and someone else, someone more vital to defeating the Outsiders.) The Crown of Thorns may have different symbolic meanings, but I'm not seeing how it could be a weapon and I have no idea about the sign.
That's supposed to be Impossible, per the Mothers in SK. Mantles=Power=Conservation of Energy and all that. But a weapon that is essentially a portable Conjunction that allows Immortals to Die (and then their mantles do whatever that particular kind of Mantle does: move, scatter, go dormant, etc) would be a hell of a Game-Changer
Didnt michael kill a dragon with his sword? That might mean it is a mantle killer item.Not everything is a mantle. There's no reason to suspect dragons are.
These items are likely powered by soulfire, so even the fallen would be very vulnerable to them, as well as outsiders.
Conservation of Energy
What about Mother Winters deal she gave to Harry that can undo any magic? I bet that could undo a Mantle.. Anyways why would it mess up conservation of energy? Destroying a Mantle would just be dispersing the energy to a form that wasn't a Mantle... Think of a jar filled with water. If you break the jar the water isn't destroyed. It's just not in the container anymore.The way I see it, the Host IS the jar. What you describe is, to me, more like that high school experiment where you split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen, a bit more fundamentally changing.
Not everything is a mantle. There's no reason to suspect dragons are.Given the Cosmic nature of Dragons, I'd be quite suprised if they are not in fact mantles. Especially, given the WOJ that each Eldest of a given race is a mantle (in Fae at least). And given that they CREATED an entire servator race of the lesser dragons, if Dragon's aren't Mantles, then they are probably far and away the most Powerful thing kicking around that isnt.
Didnt michael kill a dragon with his sword? That might mean it is a mantle killer item.No it doesnt. Harry has killed two mantled Immortal's so far, and has yet to Destroy a Mantle. For all we know that dragon's Mantle is sitting in a Dragon Egg somewhere waiting to be Reborn, or got even distributed to the two surviving Dragons. Or something. We only know how the Fae Queen's mantles are passed, and they are unique enough overall that I dont think they are going to be the best example of "typical" mantle behavior.
Given the Cosmic nature of Dragons, I'd be quite suprised if they are not in fact mantles. Especially, given the WOJ that each Eldest of a given race is a mantle (in Fae at least). And given that they CREATED an entire servator race of the lesser dragons, if Dragon's aren't Mantles, then they are probably far and away the most Powerful thing kicking around that isnt.
Given the Cosmic nature of Dragons, I'd be quite suprised if they are not in fact mantles. Especially, given the WOJ that each Eldest of a given race is a mantle (in Fae at least). And given that they CREATED an entire servator race of the lesser dragons, if Dragon's aren't Mantles, then they are probably far and away the most Powerful thing kicking around that isnt.Mantles have to go somewhere. It's WOJ that there are far fewer big D Dragons around than there used to be. If they were mantles, this wouldn't be the case -- the mantles would have gone to a suitable host (those little d dragons, perhaps).
Not necessarily, Archangels have cosmic levels of power as well but they aren't mantle wielders. They too have underlings of lesser versions of themselves. Granted they didn't create them themselves but still.I submit that we dont really know /what/ angels are, beyond that they are uniquely made of pure soul. For all we know all mantles are just the discarded Grace of now fallen angels.
Mantles have to go somewhere. It's WOJ that there are far fewer big D Dragons around than there used to be. If they were mantles, this wouldn't be the case -- the mantles would have gone to a suitable host (those little d dragons, perhaps).Two, in fact. A recent one said their were three before Michael did his St. George impression, and only Ferrovax and Pyrovax(sp?) are left
I submit that we dont really know /what/ angels are, beyond that they are uniquely made of pure soul. For all we know all mantles are just the discarded Grace of now fallen angels.
Actually, now that I say it, that would make a certain amount of sense; if "power has purpose" because it was the Purpose of an angel that is no longer performing, and so the entire current system is built of substitutes grown from the mortal population, empowered with the cast-off Purposes...
Yes, but in Changes Odin was using his Spear (presumably Odin's mythic spear Gungnir) /as/ a wizards staff. It would appeal to me for harry to mount the spear of destiny on his staff, giving an upgrade to both. Its always been the point and not the shaft that was important in the histories, but if the shaft were an enchanted Wizards staff (especially the muiltpurpose, layered version he had in SG) it could be all kinds of fun.
Yeah, but an imposing guy walking around with a large stick, is a cosplay enthusiast. An imposing guy walking around with a large spear will attract police attention.
In the sage words of Michael Carpenter: "[Harry] destroyI still get chuckles from SG when I read Murphy telling Harry she wouldn't mind him burning down the warehouse when she first sees it. lol ;) 8) ::) :Pbuildings, Fightmonsters openly in the streets of the city, workwith the police, showup in newspapers, advertisein the phone book, and rideDinosaurs down Michigan Avenue, and [you] think that [he] works in the shadows? Be reasonable."
;D
I still get chuckles from SG when I read Murphy telling Harry she wouldn't mind him burning down the warehouse when she first sees it. lol ;) 8) ::) :PLol, ya. Right along with Butters asking Harry if he coudl swing Sue by his boss's car...
Mantles have to go somewhere. It's WOJ that there are far fewer big D Dragons around than there used to be. If they were mantles, this wouldn't be the case -- the mantles would have gone to a suitable host (those little d dragons, perhaps).
What if the mantle is back in Ferrovax or the other dragon? They are just holding the power in themselves, hording the power, but still doing their duty.I believe Jim has a quote out there somewhere about a body only being able to contain so much. If Big-Ds were a mantle, they'd be enormously powerful, so I don't see any body containing more than one for any length of time.
I believe Jim has a quote out there somewhere about a body only being able to contain so much. If Big-Ds were a mantle, they'd be enormously powerful, so I don't see any body containing more than one for any length of time.Only if they are all equal. I mean, a Queen can hold her own mantle and the Knights. And I wouldnt put it past Mother Winter to be able to hold the Lady Mantle at least for a while, if no host were immediately available
I'm only going to consider anything a mantle when the books say or imply they are. Just because it's the Big New Word as of Cold Days doesn't mean everything has to be shoehorned into it.Im currently proceeding under the assumption that any actual Immortal (per the new CD definition) is a Mantle, based on my read of Bob's explanations about Halloween, conjunctions, etc. Outside of that the only creatures we have confirmed to be Mantles are the Eldest of a given Race of Fae, per WOJ. So yes for Sith and Gruff, No for Lea (by specific WOJ), all others by measure of True Immortality.
If we've got Mantles not belonging to an Immortal (Knighthood) I'm not sure that we should assume that Immortals all have Mantles.I agree in the spirit of there being too many mantles, but Bob specifically associates true immortality with having a mantle in CD. They go trick or treating on Halloween to try to add to their mantle. I'm reluctant to go against Bob without more support from somewhere.
I agree in the spirit of there being too many mantles, but Bob specifically associates true immortality with having a mantle in CD. They go trick or treating on Halloween to try to add to their mantle. I'm reluctant to go against Bob without more support from somewhere.
That makes an assumption that all immortals that are killed on Halloween will actually have their "mantles" transferred. We have exactly no evidence of that. What Bob actually says is that the immortals take small amounts of power from one another (i.e. They Trick or Treat).Here are Bob's exact words, my emphasis:
"Halloween is when they feed," Bob said. "Or... refuel. Or run free. It's all sort of the same thing, and I'm only conveying a small part of it. Halloween night is when the locked stasis of immortality becomes malleable. They take in energy--and it's when they can add new power to their mantle. Mostly they steal tiny bits of it from other immortals."
Could we not just chalk that bit up to a Fae specific conversation since it surrounds Harry having to kill one? And he says 'add power to their mantle' not 'mantles' which would lump them all together more. As in they add to their usually unmalleable state of immortality, their power in general. We find out later in the book at least one immortal feels no need to differentiate between a mask and a mantle, so if Bob is using the more general meaning as opposed to a specific 'everyone's got a mantle like the Fae do' definition then we've got our flexibility even within the same book.I don't think so. The paragraph before, Bob says that "Everyone--everything--standing in this world is mortal on Halloween." Bob isn't just talking about immortal faeries.
I don't think so. The paragraph before, Bob says that "Everyone--everything--standing in this world is mortal on Halloween." Bob isn't just talking about immortal faeries.
I really think you are placing too much on the mantle word. So, if Hades dies does the person that kills him absorb the Mantle? I do not believe that every immortal being (remember that Naagloshii are immortals) are mantles.If Jim didn't actually mean mantle when he said mantle, it's not exactly hard to come up with a different phrasing for Bob to use in that sentence. I just think that the text and WoJ point more toward all true immortals having mantles.
Yes, but he makes a point of reminding Harry a little later in the conversation that 'there will just be another Maeve'. That Harry kept thinking about the Ladies as people and they weren't, they are mantles of power. So yes, he lumps every immortal as a 'can die' on Halloween because they can. But that in and of itself, to me, does not require them all to be mantle bearers in the same sense as the Fae. That he chose to use that particular word the way he did is twofold, it keeps Harry and the reader on focus about what he'll be dealing with in Maeve...and it sets up the later point made by Kringle about there being no difference between a mantle and a mask. That one's 'identity', one's power, and one's self is open to a wide array of interpretation and malleability, given the right time and place.Bob keeps saying things like everyone too much for me to buy he was only talking about faerie queens.
Besides, if for instance Siriothrax was a mantle holder then Ferro has no need to be upset as his demise...there will just be another Siriothrax. If Odin were a mantle he couldn't reasonably be expected to hold a second, it would just have been added to his original base of power and augmented it, rather than being separate and apart.
Bob keeps saying things like everyone too much for me to buy he was only talking about faerie queens.
As far as Odin goes, I see no problem in consistency with him holding multiple mantles. Gaining a second mantle doesn't necessarily mean the two mantles will merge. The ability manipulate and split mantles is consistent with theories on the emergence of the Summer/Winter divide.
Siriothrax is automatically a difficult question since a KotC was involved. It makes perfect sense for him to be upset if a Dragon mantle is absorbed into and overpowered by an archangel mantle, for example. That doesn't even consider personal attachments Ferro may have had.
2010 Bitten by Books Q&A:
#189 “Was Sirothrax a major dragon like Ferrovax or a minor dragon?”
He was the real deal, though he was in some ways the weakest of the remaining great dragons.
Ferrovax wouldn’t have given a damn about some nobody minor dragon being slain. :)
2011 Atlanta Signing
You mentioned that Mister Ferro won’t be back until the Apocalyptic Trilogy, right? [Jim: Probably not.] Will we see other dragons before that?
A: How many dragons do you guys want? [audience: “All of them!”] Actually, we’re darn close. There’s only like three or four of them left in the world. Which is why killing one is kind of a big deal. Also, its going to totally upset all kinds of things if that happens. So: of course. You can’t just go ‘I slew a dragon!’ ‘Greaaaaat. You did what? You did what?’ That’s the kind of reaction you garner, especially from people who are defenders of the status quo, which is pretty much everyone.
I could certainly see there being a variety in how mantles are transferred. If a random immortal gets offed, their mantle may not fly directly to the next person. Perhaps if a skinwalker were to take a nuke on Halloween, his mantle would fly away and distribute itself evenly to all the other skinwalkers. Flexibility in the transfers would give more freedom to play around with.
'Add power to their mantle'. Not split or manipulate the power into separate divisions of a mantle(s) to make a new one. They add to themselves. Power cannot be destroyed, only changed per the Einstenian conversation in SK. Kringle re-asserts this in CD, 'none of us are what we once were'. So adapting and adding the power to their own vs separating it into a different function.Right... I'm not sure what you're getting at. Mantles have to be able to be split somehow if immortals can steal tiny bits of power from each other. It doesn't seem like they're all just swapping them around whole every time. Maintaining the separateness of mantles in one vessel isn't that big of a leap. There's WoJ that the Erlking could carve out a mini-Knight mantle from his own if he wanted to, but it wouldn't be as impressive as the Summer/Winter Knight.
That Summer and Winter, (two already fundamentally opposing forces that could just as easily have been examples of those mantles that always existed per WOJ), possibly were founded that way based on an entirely different set of circumstances and power vector (the Stone Table) does not necessarily make it applicable to all or any other circumstances.
Is it though? Why does a KoTC give an Archangel an avenue to absorb the power? They certainly don't do anything of the sort with anything else one of the Swords has killed...vampires, Fae, Denarians...none of them make the Swords stronger or have been shown to create a conduit back to the Angels with which to utilize such power. And did Ferro really strike you as sentimental?Haha not sentimental, but prideful certainly fits his personality. Someone killed his peer and an endangered species. That's enough to piss him off. It doesn't seem like he's mad enough to actually do anything about it, though.
So it seems the general principle is, Ferro has no reason to care since if Dragon's were mantles then the status quo isn't upset...and in that same spirit, Archangels would be loathe to take in such power as part of that status quo.
Which assumes a level of flexibility that, even under Halloween parameters, has never been associated with any known mantle.
Right... I'm not sure what you're getting at. Mantles have to be able to be split somehow if immortals can steal tiny bits of power from each other. It doesn't seem like they're all just swapping them around whole every time. Maintaining the separateness of mantles in one vessel isn't that big of a leap. There's WoJ that the Erlking could carve out a mini-Knight mantle from his own if he wanted to, but it wouldn't be as impressive as the Summer/Winter Knight.
Haha not sentimental, but prideful certainly fits his personality. Someone killed his peer and an endangered species. That's enough to piss him off. It doesn't seem like he's mad enough to actually do anything about it, though.
Archangels are closely associated with the Swords regardless, and we don't have a good enough sense of scale to be able to tell the difference if chunks of power get added onto them. If Siriothrax was going down and he was as huge a deal as he's been depicted, it makes sense that an archangel wouldn't be far away. Something angelic was nearby with Murphy when the RC was getting taken down. As far as being reluctant to take on a Dragon's power and responsibilities, we need more background information. It may have been well worth the consequences.
The flexibility in transfers is a hypothesis at the moment, but it doesn't seem to be based on unreasonable assumptions. We have WoJ that not all mantles work exactly the same way.
If Jim didn't actually mean mantle when he said mantle, it's not exactly hard to come up with a different phrasing for Bob to use in that sentence. I just think that the text and WoJ point more toward all true immortals having mantles.
That if they are adding power to their mantle, then by definition they aren't splitting it up into separate 'mini mantles' within their own power. If Odin is a mantle, and Kringle is a mantle, then whichever was there first ought to have had the other added to it. Changed, absorbed, rolled into...any which way you look at it...they get a piece and fuse it with their 'mantle' or established power base. That is how its done. If they keep them apart then it goes against the 'filled vessel' notion put forth by another WOJ.Ah okay, yeah I agree with you there. If immortals take a small chunk of mantle then it makes sense to merge it with a previously held mantle. But if it's a larger piece of power, it may make more sense to keep them separate. One face for one type of job. For instance, it may not be a good idea to mix the Hercules mantle with a fae mantle if it means you would get an iron allergy all the time. I don't think it violates the "filled vessel" idea to have separated mantles if their sum isn't going to overflow. Odin uses his usual mask to dish out orders to valkyries and have fun battling rampires, but he uses his Kringle face when dealing with Winter.
The Erkling is taking part of his own established power and adding a piece to create his own 'Knight'. He isn't keeping that 'Knight' power for himself then. So if Kringle was a piece of Odin's power gifted to someone else, sure all good. But if he takes in power then it ought to be added to his existing 'mantle'. If Odin himself is a mantle too.
Angelic presence or knowledge on the matter =/= taking in that Power. Again, nothing else the Swords have killed has been noted to follow this principle. Sword doesn't get brighter the more it kills, power isn't felt as being absorbed or transferred by any wielder or sensitive magic user.If everyone was so bound to preserving the status quo, Michael wouldn't have been sent on duty to take down Siriothrax in the first place.
But the idea is, if 'everyone' wants to keep the status quo as far as power bases are concerned, then so too would Archangels. The idea isn't they don't wanna take on the power and responsibilities because of what it entails (which as peer cosmological beings doesn't seem like it would clash) but because it goes against the status quo in general.
And I see plenty of flexibility in the use of the word 'mantle' as it was used by Bob that doesn't require all immortals to be held fast to it in the traditional Fae sense of the power. That not everyone or everything has a mantle based on this conversation.
No I think it was a way for Bob to explain how the exchange power. The conversation was heavily Fae oriented at that point and the Queens in specific, so I think Bob just carried along in the conversation.It takes a lot of logical acrobatics to argue that Bob was only talking about faeries when he says mantles. The queens are very interested in preserving balance, so it doesn't make sense for them to be out trick or treating to gain and possibly lose power. The simple explanation is that Bob meant exactly what he said.
So again, every Naagloshii is a mantle as well? Outsiders as well or just Walkers?
To me, there are positions within the Universe that were set up that need to exist. Then there are other structures that could exist. Those that need to exist at all times are mantles (which is why Warden of DR can't possibly be a mantle). Mantleship means that there is a position to be filled. Not all immortals fill a position. For example, non-Archangels. Naagloshii. Dragons. Lea. They are just beings. Are some/all the gods mantles? Maybe. But the implication in Norse Mythology is that if Thor took over for Odin, he would still be Thor and would not eventually be Odin. There are some examples of this in Greek Mythology as well.
How about Dragons?One explanation I've offered is that an archangel took up his mantle and duties once Michael killed Siriothrax, but they're so big and important that we mere mortals can't tell that a change has been made. Another explanation is that Siriothrax's role isn't needed at all times, so his mantle is lying dormant at the moment. If we need a third option, Siriothrax's mantle may have shattered and gone to hundreds of individuals to share in his responsibilities and portions of his power. We need more information on Siriothrax's Purpose and how different mantles vary and transfer to make a better guess.
Where is the new Sirothrax?
Wow - okay well there you go...Well if you think Siriothrax is only as immortal as your run of the mill whampire, then sure. I don't think the text supports it, but there's nothing that outright says that is false.
We have no idea so we invented some mechanisms. Or how about idea 4. Siriothrax is dead, never to return since not all beings have a cosmic purpose.
Wow - okay well there you go...Nah, that at least doesnt work because all Capital D Dragons have cosmic purpose. Well, Had. They used to control Seasons, but then we know that somebody else's bag now.
We have no idea so we invented some mechanisms. Or how about idea 4. Siriothrax is dead, never to return since not all beings have a cosmic purpose.
There's a very recent WOJ about how the queens created their Knight/Champion mantles by carving off a piece of their own power. The context of the question, iirc, was whether somebody like Erl could make a knight of his own, and I think the answer was yes but he's not really big enough to have that kind of power to spare, whereas the Summer/Winter knights came from the three queens.
Ill see if I can find it. Serack, any idea where it might have been?
James Burnell @SuperSnapper61 Feb 10:
@longshotauthor is it possible for the Erlking to create a Wyld Knight or some equivalent?
Jim Butcher @longshotauthor:
@SuperSnapper61 Engh. He could feasibly take a part of his own power and fashion a new mantle from it. Much weaker than the WK though.
Jim Turnage @jim_turnage Feb 12:
@longshotauthor Wait, Mab as strong as she is despite wrapping enough of her power together to make a Mantle?! Or someone else made it...
The Honorable Dennis @den_down_unda Feb 12:
@jim_turnage @longshotauthor I'm guessing the fact that there are three Queens to a single King of the Wild Fae has something to do with it.
Jim Butcher @longshotauthor Feb 13:
@den_down_unda @jim_turnage The Erlking is simply not on the same scale of power as Mab, though he could probably hand Molly her head.
Well if you think Siriothrax is only as immortal as your run of the mill whampire, then sure. I don't think the text supports it, but there's nothing that outright says that is false.
We don't have first hand evidence of any cosmic disruptions from Siriothrax's demise, (though the WoJ of "you killed WHAT" comes close).I got the impression, but cant cite sources, that the reason there wasnt much in the way of Cosmic disruptions was because Siriothrax had been neglecting his duties for a long time, and so there wasnt as much of a splash once he was gone.
I got the impression, but cant cite sources, that the reason there wasnt much in the way of Cosmic disruptions was because Siriothrax had been neglecting his duties for a long time, and so there wasnt as much of a splash once he was gone.
TIL Siriothrax is Maeve. 8)Pretty much ya, only we dont know if he ever got a replacement.
Pretty much ya, only we dont know if he ever got a replacement.
Not according to the WOJ's which have two Dragons only remaining, Ferro and Pyro.No new Dragon, true. I was thinking more as somebody else taking up the duties. Could be one of the other two (hoarding Sirio's Power) or could be a Non-Dragon successor, with the implication that all the Dragons' Duties have slowly migrated to other creatures. Since the Dragons used to be in charge of Season per WOJ, it could make sense that as they Die off other agents have ascended to their roles, somehow.
No new Dragon, true. I was thinking more as somebody else taking up the duties. Could be one of the other two (hoarding Sirio's Power) or could be a Non-Dragon successor, with the implication that all the Dragons' Duties have slowly migrated to other creatures. Since the Dragons used to be in charge of Season per WOJ, it could make sense that as they Die off other agents have ascended to their roles, somehow.
How do we reconcile Ferro caring about Sirio dying then? Separate WOJ attributes his reaction to basically 'Ferro would not have cared about some little D dragon nobody'.
How do we reconcile Ferro caring about Sirio dying then? Separate WOJ attributes his reaction to basically 'Ferro would not have cared about some little D dragon nobody'. That being the case, if someone did step up to ascend to the role or duties then what does it matter to him if Sirio died? Coupled with the third WOJ that you essentially can't just go around saying you killed a Dragon because those in power will think you're insane...upsetting the 'status quo'...that if someone else took the role it ought not to matter.Hmm, fair points all.
Which is also why I don't like the idea of Dragon's being mantles. Too many ppl per in-book reaction and WOJ seem to be averse to what happened to Siriothrax dying that it doesn't make sense if the role just got interchanged. No need to be as bent out of shape about it then.
Hmm, fair points all.
Well, in the case of other people's reactions, I think they fall into two categories: the low end might not really appreciate the difference between the Smaug-like dragons that St George fought and the actual Dragons, while the upper end that knows better would be the sort that would not seek retribution against a Knight of the Cross acting while On-Duty, if for no other reason than that they'd consider him the Tool of a larger being.
In the case of Ferro's reaction; Michael, a mortal, /did/ manage to kill 1/3rd of all Dragon kind; regardless of cosmic fallout that would have to be an unpleasant thought for a being of Ferro's class (and longevity). And just because the ball doesnt get dropped entirely doesnt mean there wouldnt be a massive upheaval involved; Mab has an understudy waiting in the wings at all times, but...
The Dragons were /once/ keepers of the Cosmic Balances. When asked recently for an example, JB said "the Turning of the Seasons, stuff like that" (from memory). So that one example at least is clearly one of the bits that have been taken over by Humanity and Human-based agents (ie the Sidhe). Im less clear on how much actual responsibility they have, and how much influence otherwise, or if it's mostly just residual honor. Im thinking of the analogy of the Queen of England here; relatively little actual Power compared to the Old Days, but still enough of a Symbol to matter and to cause a massive storm if killed. (this came up recently when discussing the relative security forces around the Offices of the Queen vs the US President, as shown in a Nicholas Cage movie).
And Im not really thinking Mantles persay, not in the sense of what passed from Maeve to Molly, etc. (those are more fully formed with personality/style/theme of their own). But the role, the Purpose behind those mantles or that drives those mantles, the Responsibilities to the Universe. The Power. Mab is a Mantle; Gate Guardian is a Purpose. To fit it into the fae scheme, not he mantle directly, but what I imagine that the Power that would flow into the Court if they were sacrificed using the Table.
Thoughts?
[Spoiler = Misc Dragon WOJ's for reference]
[/spoiler][/spoiler]
How about "Entropy"? ;)
Just because power conservation laws exist doesn't mean that every last bit of magical energy needs to be "accounted for" by a named entity. Consider our world where conservation of energy presumably exists, and yet while the total energy in the universe (assuming closed system, yada yada) is constant, we have things like energy sources getting used up.
Presumably this type of arrangement must exist at some level in the Dresdenverse, since wizards can beget more wizards without sacrificing their power. Based on what we know, the power of Faith might work in a similar manner.
Thus, I don't think it's implausible to say that the sum total of "claimed" magical power (through mantles, faith, e.g.) is less than 0.1% of the total available magical power out there. If so, "releasing" all the magic held by Siriothrax, considerable as it was is simply converting a relatively small amount of the total magic power out there to "unclaimed" status.
i.e. "Entropy". ;)
I thought it was pretty clear that his power went to Where the Dragons Went.
Where did Siriothrax's power go? Where does any power go when one dies who doesn't bear a mantle?
once they lost that cosmic significance
Entropy of some kind, probably.MW cuts their string and they drift off into the memory of the cosmos becoming outsiders. If you think, MW kinda is the outergate, the final barrier, the supreme unmaker, whichever. I mean there's layers to death in the DF, mortal death, spiritual death, ect. the final one is not being part of this reality at all, but as leah says even the comso's remembers, if thats so then it makes sense the comso has the vast imprints of everything that was ever unmade entirely. as a side note, I imagine this is how/why hell,hades and any other form of afterlife exists, to keep the balance of energy inside and not let it drift off to come back as, whatever the heck is outside. everything that doesn't currently exist and all that hasn't yet?
MW cuts their string and they drift off into the memory of the cosmos becoming outsiders. If you think, MW kinda is the outergate, the final barrier, the supreme unmaker, whichever. I mean there's layers to death in the DF, mortal death, spiritual death, ect. the final one is not being part of this reality at all, but as leah says even the comso's remembers, if thats so then it makes sense the comso has the vast imprints of everything that was ever unmade entirely. as a side note, I imagine this is how/why hell,hades and any other form of afterlife exists, to keep the balance of energy inside and not let it drift off to come back as, whatever the heck is outside. everything that doesn't currently exist and all that hasn't yet?
(theoretically by killing sithro Michael put him outside where he might try to find a reflection back into our world, or help greater the power of the outside in other signifigant ways. Woj dragons are on par with archangels so imagine the sudden void from one of those ceasing to exist, that void is now outside power)
So what's Butcher's point with the fae mantles, anyway? That weather systems didn't exist before knife-murdering and black magic ascention rituals?
Mother Winter isn't TWG, just a human hopped up on ascension ritual meth. She has difficulty traveling spatially, and we saw in GS that souls don't just warp to her. So I don't think she has dominion over that kind of thing on a cosmic scale.]We have Woj MW is the original, from the beginning thing, she was never a human like MS. and your right she doesn't have the power to just rip the soul out of anything, anymore. Cause that's what her walking stick does now ::) , funny with it she could also travel just about anywhere meaning nothing was beyond her reach. Now she's stuck in the NN but it don't mean her power much changed.
The Fae embody dual themes: that of the seasons and that of civilization (or lack thereof). In addition to the ice-and-snow thing, the WK is wrath, the WQ is pragmatism, the WM is fear.
Originally, Hecate was the manifestation of these things- but by overpowering her and killing her, the Fae proved themselves worthy to uphold what she represented. Worthier than Hecate.
So we have humans who have stolen power via human sacrifice insinuating themselves into the natural order
If CD was any indication, we need to worry about the opposite. Harry struggles against the Winter Mantle (the 'natural order' personified) urging him to rape and kill. When Mab shows humanity, it is a rare and unnerving thing. The Summer Mantle overwhelms Lily, making her burn the landscape and attack indiscriminately- making her threaten the man her human side loves.
Nature is not the one being (ab)used here. It may not initiate Table rituals, but it certainly dominates their participants.
Those things aren't from nature though. They arise from the mantle, artificial constructs made by humans with black magic and human sacrifice.
A mantle isn't "nature"... it's a thing created with murder.
But yes, nature always dominates in the end. Because it is eternal. What men create -- dams or mantles -- may last a very long time, but a finite amount of energy went into their creation.
Yet these mantles manifest themselves through frost and blossoming flowers. If they're inventions of human sin, why aren't Summer Queens followed by streams of blood? Why is it that howling winds- not dying screams or tortured sobs- herald the Winter Lady's arrival?
Because the Mantles show themselves through clear natural phenomena, we may assume they are creations of nature. Natural creations? That remains to be seen. But there are plenty of situations where nature establishes a symbiotic relationship with human life and humanity's 'artificial' constructs.
When Harry killed a man to protect his daughter, that was also nature. A natural instinct equal to any falcon call or palm leaf. Remember what his id said? "Protect the offspring."
Humanity itself endures. The towers and dams don't matter, they're just byproducts of life- human life. Judging us by dams is like saying all Dalmatians are going extinct because dog shit can be washed away.
fae queens have intimated themselves into natural processes
Those things aren't from nature though. They arise from the mantle, artificial constructs made by humans with black magic and human sacrifice. A mantle isn't "nature"... it's a thing created with murder. Literally, the definition of crimes against humanity.I think you may be assigning a whole lot more characterization to all mantles everywhere, than is necessarily called for here. We know that the fae queens have used their Table to increase their Power, and can assume that some (but certainly not all) of that was Human Sacrifice. We Know that the The Erlking gathered his power by consuming energy in a qualitatively similar fashion to a DarkHallow, and we know that a Darkhallow can gather enough Power to birth in Immortal. We do not know if that is how they all work, or where they actually came from. There are lots of ways to level a building We've seen a Nuke in action, but we can go saying all explosions work that way.
The fae queens -- humans with stolen power obtained by black magic -- have inserted themselves into at the very least, atmospheric weather, in a manner similar to a human building a dam.
If Harry is any indication, the Fae created and bear Mantles because of natural processes: to protect themselves, to protect others, to fight and/or survive better. Remember, Mab doesn't spend her days partying or swimming in mountains of gold: she fights Outsider incursions, she kills traitors, she disciplines the mightiest army Earth has ever known. ("Power has purpose," says Mother Winter in CD.)
Nature is not some flawless harmony where everybody gets what they want. Natural processes always conflict with each other- often to the detriment of nature itself- but that doesn't make them any less natural. It is natural for humans to dislike being cold (because cold is dangerous): therefore, it is natural for humans to build shelters. The resulting houses are no more artificial than the rain wearing them down.
Similarly, Mantle creation is a natural process. Unhealthy, yes- for the Fae involved, and perhaps even the world. But it is not unnatural, or unusual, for any creature to seek power.
We know that the fae queens have used their Table to increase their Power, and can assume that some (but certainly not all) of that was Human Sacrifice.
Why didn't using the red court's bloodline curse, powered by human sacrifice, drive Harry insane?
If we go back to the laws of magic, there seems to be a complete distinction between killing a Human and killing a Red Court Vampire. The latter (associated with the problems of Black Magic) seems to be taint free. Since Harry only killed RCV's there was no problem. If he had killed people, well something else may have happened.Yup. Legally The Laws only ever apply to what is done to Mortals. Mtaphysically I think it's a bit more subjective than that. For example I think you're average Warden would have no fallout from Killing a White Court Vampire, but Harry has a more personal perspective and sees them as actual People. Similarly a Wizard who can speak to animals might have more issues killing them with magic, Thralling them, etc, depending on how their own views of said animals had been changed by contact.
As an extension of this, you would have to look at the Fellowship of St. Giles. Harry did not kill any of the Humans. He killed their Vampire 1/2 and the loss of that aged the Humans past their lifespan.
Yup. Legally The Laws only ever apply to what is done to Mortals. Mtaphysically I think it's a bit more subjective than that. For example I think you're average Warden would have no fallout from Killing a White Court Vampire, but Harry has a more personal perspective and sees them as actual People. Similarly a Wizard who can speak to animals might have more issues killing them with magic, Thralling them, etc, depending on how their own views of said animals had been changed by contact.
Kumori resurrected a Human and broke one of the 7 laws. It was black magic.
Which mantles were created by Black Magic Ascension? For all we know the Faerie Queen Mantles were created originally by TWG. We actually have no information about their origin. All we have is an explanation that a Darkhallow, done correctly, would create something with powers of a "God" (does that mean Mab like, Molly like, MW like, Hades like - we have no idea). If that being was subsequently killed on Halloween, we have no idea if that became a "mantle" and passed on.
Into the Jungle
Hecate got shanked on the stone table. Hence why the statue of Hecate in the Underworld shows the fae queens.
5. If the original base of power of the fae queens (humans) was from a human (Hecate), and human sacrifice (ascension ritual), then I don't really see how they could have insinuated themselves into atmospheric weather systems before humanity existed. And please, no time travel theories, or TWG will kill a kitten.
When it comes to Hecate we've already got three 'conflicting' notions. First Welcome to the Jungle has her ascending this way from a human, or thereabouts iirc. Then Bob offhandedly mentions in DM or BR about big dormant Gods who are still around and brings up Hecate. Now we have SG which has of course given rise to the idea that she is an aspect of power surrounding the six Queens of Faerie, possibly sacrificed on the Table. So...its all conjecture now anyway. Some seem more likely than others.
Missed that DM ref. That's definitely a contradiction between DM and the common reading of SG. And I am so not going there with some time travel or mirror universe thing. WttJ doesn't contradict either.Also keep in mind that Hecate was a Triple Goddess, and so could have easily been the "proto-Queens" in some regard, having already been split that far, so that the only "modern" change is that they/she further split into Summer/Winter halves, presumably when they took over The Gates and thus needed the current system of Checks and Balances. Granted I dont know how easily it will be to reconcile that with Mother Winter's Moirai role. But then we have proof that one entity can be multiple deities, so it's not too crazy.
If you're interested in the lore here, I think reading Into the Jungle would be relevant to your interest
I don't read any of it. I listen to audiobooks, which makes almost no sense with comics. My take on the way things go in terms of relevance:
1 - WoJ: However, they tend to be quite fae-like and often not specific.
2 - Novels: Later is better than earlier. There are some number of retcons and changes to things.
3 - Short Stories: Most of them seem to be more "fun" than part of the lore. Mistakes can be made.
4 - Comics: See 3.
5 - TV Show: Well it has to go somewhere.
6 - Fan Fiction/Speculation: What I am trying to say with all the work that we do, it can all be wiped out by one piece of verbage from JB. There are quite a large number of theories about different things. Many of them directly contradict one another AND have ways of tying to the lore. There are things that will likely never be reconciled. Will we ever find out who fixed LC? Who ran Harry off the road? What was the grand plot behind the attack on AT? I have theories on all of them, but none of them can be proven. For example, we recently discussed Maggie spending her summer vacation on DR (which I still don't know where Quantus got that nugget from). EG and I were discussing why Maggie might not be affected by the bad vibes. I see where that makes sense from an author's standpoint, but struggle to find a way for it to come out of what has been written about DR.
BTW Quantus, I spliced in a link to the original source of the image of the knife you were referring to in Reply #9 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,45369.msg2163413.html#msg2163413)
While i do think the knife is the spear i don't think invulnerability is its power. Simply from a storytelling perspective giving your hero invincibility removes way to much tension, plus there's the fact that nic already has an artifact that shields him from almost all harm with the noose.Didn't the spear not actually kill Christ? I thought He was dead of the rigors of crucifixion first, and then Longinus stabbed Him in the side to make sure He was dead. And He was.
I think the blades power is actually the counter to inviolability, it can kill virtually anything. It could be argued that the spear perceiving him is what killed christ, and if the spear was able to keep the son of god dead for 3 days im willing to beat it can keep anything short of that down a lot longer. given this power it would be no wonder nic would want to get his hands on it, and i think i know who he planed to use it on.
if jim follows the pattern of every 5 books for nic showing up we will see him again right before the end trilogy and im betting the event to kick off that is nic stealing the knife and using it to kill one of the beings who has stood in his way time after time uriel.
2 - Novels: Later is better than earlier. There are some number of retcons and changes to things.Help me out here. Ive been seeing this statement made more and more often these days, and it's got me a little confuse. What retcons? I know of the tweak to Ivy where she doesnt literally know ever single thing that has ever been spoken (though Oral History still seems to be in her purview). And I know of the simple mistakes like Molly's age or the name of Bianca's Assistant. But people are making it sound like he's been re-writing and revising things left and right like a long lived comic book character (Wolverine has no bone claws you whippersnappers!). But Im not aware of anything that significant or numerous?
For example, we recently discussed Maggie spending her summer vacation on DR (which I still don't know where Quantus got that nugget from).It was a recent and very brief interview on Beard and Bean, I believe while at SausomeCon. I got it from facebook, so unfortunately I dont have a link I can post.
Didn't the spear not actually kill Christ? I thought He was dead of the rigors of crucifixion first, and then Longinus stabbed Him in the side to make sure He was dead. And He was.Dredging from my Sunday School memories, but the big deal with the spear was that it preserved the circumstances of a prophesy (of which I remember nothing else). Crucifixion often took days to actually kill the person. It was common practice to break their lets after a bit, which because of their raised arm hanging position would actually strangle them on their own collarbone. The prophesy stated that he would die without any broken bones, however. Longinus was sent up to break his legs, but for some reason chose to stab him instead. In doing so he "preserved the Divinity of Christ" and created the last of "the Five Holy Wounds" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Holy_Wounds) (the others all being Nail Wounds.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
BTW Quantus, I spliced in a link to the original source of the image of the knife you were referring to in Reply #9 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,45369.msg2163413.html#msg2163413)Ah, coolness. It was giving me trouble linking to it (though it might have been do to the content filters Im stuck behind at work) so I dropped in into photobucket. But then Photobocket had to go and "improve" (translation "Break") their link code functionality for a while. I think its back up and running now.
I keep that link tucked under "Random Interwebs coolness involving Jim" in the official all time WoJ index (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28457.msg1220089.html#msg1220089) that hasn't been updated much the past year or so... (although checking, it does have links to the topics containing the newer links... so it isn't as out of date as I feared...)
Help me out here. Ive been seeing this statement made more and more often these days, and it's got me a little confuse. What retcons? I know of the tweak to Ivy where she doesnt literally know ever single thing that has ever been spoken (though Oral History still seems to be in her purview). And I know of the simple mistakes like Molly's age or the name of Bianca's Assistant. But people are making it sound like he's been re-writing and revising things left and right like a long lived comic book character (Wolverine has no bone claws you whippersnappers!). But Im not aware of anything that significant or numerous?Not just Ivy's knowledge, but also how she became the Archive. In Death Masks, she says that when her mother gave birth, she went into a persistent vegetative state, and that that was how the Archive always passed from one to another -- at the new Archive's birth. In Small Favor, the story's completely different -- that Ivy's mother killed herself while still pregnant, that the Archive passes upon the death of the previous Archive, and Ivy's situation is wholly different and unprecedented.
Not just Ivy's knowledge, but also how she became the Archive. In Death Masks, she says that when her mother gave birth, she went into a persistent vegetative state, and that that was how the Archive always passed from one to another -- at the new Archive's birth. In Small Favor, the story's completely different -- that Ivy's mother killed herself while still pregnant, that the Archive passes upon the death of the previous Archive, and Ivy's situation is wholly different and unprecedented.So nothing besides the rejiggering of the Archive?
Not just Ivy's knowledge, but also how she became the Archive. In Death Masks, she says that when her mother gave birth, she went into a persistent vegetative state, and that that was how the Archive always passed from one to another -- at the new Archive's birth. In Small Favor, the story's completely different -- that Ivy's mother killed herself while still pregnant, that the Archive passes upon the death of the previous Archive, and Ivy's situation is wholly different and unprecedented.
Sooo... is there WOJ that this was a mistake, or are we assuming?
Because Small Favor was about preventing the Archive from becoming corrupted, but what if someone wrote down some malicious code that actually rewrote Ivy's memories?
Sooo... is there WOJ that this was a mistake, or are we assuming?There's a WoJ that most of what Ivy tells about her purpose is smoke and mirrors since she's running one side of the Oblivion War. That might extend to her background.
Because Small Favor was about preventing the Archive from becoming corrupted, but what if someone wrote down some malicious code that actually rewrote Ivy's memories?
Sooo... is there WOJ that this was a mistake, or are we assuming?I dont particularly think so myself, I chalk most of it up to her simply not going into all of her most personal details with a man she'd just met (and only in an official capacity), and to The Council being less that perfectly accurate with modern definitions of Death (a Wide and Grey spectrum in the DV, by all accounts). If, for example, Ivy's mother tried to kill herself but only managed Brain-Dead instead of All-dead, then both Ivy's description and the Council's tactical assessment would be accurate.
As far as WOJ, the closest I know of is that he did say he'd intended fro her to be a one-off character, but decided to give her a bigger role after. But That doesnt actually qualify as a Retcon to me, rather I just call that Story Development.
Let me use a classic. Harry and Lea have a conversation in Changes about her garden that guards his other side. She notes she was always able to find him because they are so close together. However, multiple times Harry says that distance in the NN is not like that in the real world. That being 10 steps away in the Real World could be 1/2 the size of the NN. So which is it?That's not really an inconsistency. Faeries are pretty fast in general, and Lea had Maggie Sr.'s NN notes. Lea has the stamina to not worry much about whatever NN environment she's going into next, so no slowing down there. Not to mention whatever option Odin came up with post-Chichen Itza is probably available to her in a pinch. Shadowing Harry shouldn't be all that difficult for Lea. Basically, "close" is relative to the ability to travel quickly.
There's also the fact that in Turn Coat, naagloshii don't procreate but in Skin Game we meet the scion of a naagloshii.
I'll... I'll show myself out.
Going from, 'my mother passed the mantle down to me as a result of my birth which left her as a shell' vs 'my mom resented having me as a teen and decided to kill herself' seems like a pretty serious fork in the road to not be considered a ret-con.Admitting Upfront that I could entirely be wrong about this, I dont think it has to be. Takes a bit of Fae reading of the statements, but that sort of word game is entirely understandable for that particular subject, especially during a first meeting with a known maniac. Check it out:
Admitting Upfront that I could entirely be wrong about this, I dont think it has to be. Takes a bit of Fae reading of the statements, but that sort of word game is entirely understandable for that particular subject, especially during a first meeting with a known maniac. Check it out:(click to show/hide)
So the Bolded bit is the key, as I see it. It can be read as "This was my inescapable birthright, just as it was Mom's" instead of "The Archive Construct Passes to the new host at the moment of Birth." After that everything fits: She is effectively dead, just as both Ivy and Luccio said, and none of the rest was in conflict. You simply have to read "Gig" as the Responsibility of the Archive, rather than the magical construct itself.
Still doesn't jive with the latter info in SmF:Precisely; That is one, and the most common, way to read her statement. I was offering a differing interpretation that I believe would solve all the conflicts. All it would take is the interpretation that nobody actually said the Archive construct always passed at birth, and that Ivy was telling Harry that She was Born with that Fate/Destiny/Job/Gig, and her mother was equally bound to said Fate at Birth. A prince was still Born to be a King (ie the circumstances of his birth are the only requirements for that gig) even if he is not usually invested with the Full power at birth.
The issue is not HOW the Archive mantle is passed (in the what she gets and from whom sense), its the description Ivy gives in the passage you just put. She describes it as if giving birth to her specifically caused the mantle to flow and once that was done her mother essentially ceased to be. Now we find out later than not only is an Archive mantle meant to be passed to a woman who is fully grown, but also has already had a daughter of her own. The Grandmother would have led a full life, not dying in childbirth in order to conceive a new vessel for the Archive, and so on. The outlier here is Ivy's story, her grandmother died in an accident and her mother was much too young (and still pregnant) and didn't want the responsibility of a task she ought not to have had for another 15-20 years. So she killed herself and passed the power on to her newborn (or her death resulted in the pregnancy).
Either way we have two conflicting 'ways' and timelines of how an Archive is made. One has Ivy tell us it happens at childbirth, and then Luccio tells us you inherent in when you're a relatively grown woman with a family all your own. I get what you are saying about the gig part but its not really how the scene reads when she talks about everything flowing into her from her mother. Her birth is the reason it occurred, so she got the gig in every sense...responsibility AND construct. Hence, ret-con.
There's no fae word games. In Death Masks and in Small Favor, the explanations for how the Archive works are described in ways that are directly in conflict with one another and are mutually exclusive.Per the quote I posted, that's not what she said. It is, I admit, the most common and arguably the most logical interpretation, however.
Ivy in Death Masks: Says she got it when she was born, and this is how the Archive has always worked.
Luccio in Small Favor: Ivy got the archive at her mother's death, which is how the Archive always worked.
Ivy in Death Masks: All Archives got it at birth.Per the quote I posted, that's not explicitly/literally what she said. It is, I admit, the most common and arguably the most logical interpretation, however. It all hinges on whether she was interpreting the question of her "gig" as Archive being the Fate/Duty of it, or the actual
Luccio: Ivy is extremely unusual and dangerous because to our knowledge she's the only Archive that got it at birth.
Ivy in Death Masks: Is comforted by the knowledge that her mother lives on in her head through her memories."Comforted" is a pretty big stretch. That implies positive emotions, or really any emotions at all, which were not evident in that scene. The closest she gets is referring to her mother as "Free of It". Otherwise she jsut tells Harry that she has no need to be Sorry for her mother dying because she knows
Luccio: Ivy knows that her mother killed herself to spite her.
Precisely; That is one, and the most common, way to read her statement. I was offering a differing interpretation that I believe would solve all the conflicts. All it would take is the interpretation that nobody actually said the Archive construct always passed at birth, and that Ivy was telling Harry that She was Born with that Fate/Destiny/Job/Gig, and her mother was equally bound to said Fate at Birth. A prince was still Born to be a King (ie the circumstances of his birth are the only requirements for that gig) even if he is not usually invested with the Full power at birth.
"Comforted" is a pretty big stretch. That implies positive emotions, or really any emotions at all, which were not evident in that scene. The closest she gets is referring to her mother as "Free of It". Otherwise she jsut tells Harry that she has no need to be Sorry for her mother dying because she knows
'With it' in the abstract sense certainly. But not 'with it' in actuality. For two reasons, A) a prince can be born destined to be a King but die young and never reach that potential and B) because she wasn't born with a destiny per that description on her part...she was born with it ALL, her mother emptied like a cup and flowed it all into her as she was being pushed out. So while I understand the interpretation, within your own supporting passage is the same girl saying she was born with it all wholesale...not just a destiny but an actuality.True Enough, but that still wouldnt be a contradiction, or a Lie (in the Fae sense at least). It's just that the two sentences werent as connected as they appeared on first read. The first was an explanation of the "Gig" in response to that question, then she was answering his question about her Mother, explaining that she'd died, and that at that same moment all of Mother flowed into her along with the rest of the archive. But the Cause and Effect of that is all left up to implication and assumption.
Well if her eyes turning 'wistful and distant' are any indicator she was perfectly capable of feeling at least sadness and probably no small degree of regret for what reads like a child who knows full well that she is the reason her mother died and essentially that she killed her by absorbing the Archive away from her mother at birth. As opposed to, as we find out later, a girl who knows her mother killed herself rather than be Ivy's mother...who isn't in a persistent vegetative state but gone entirely and who didn't die an essentially noble death, letting all that she was flow into her daughter so that she might have life but a girl who saddled her unborn (or barely born) child with this burden.Aha, but couldnt that wistfulness when saying "She's free of it" simply indicate a surviving echo of her mother's emotional state and Final Decision? Being most likely her First and likely most Powerful memory it would have to have shaped her on a pretty fundamental level, precisely as the Council fears? In the right light it looks like foreshadowing.
The tones are off in the two conversations (especially Ivy's) to fit the 'facts' as we know them per Luccio into the interpretation of the scene with Harry and Ivy, (without a level of hurdling that while I don't fault you if you'd rather see it that way to try and reconcile the scenes, I can't), when the most likely and obvious answer is Jim changed his mind and now we're stuck with a bit of a discrepancy.Oh, make no mistake, I am engaging this exercise specifically to find a logical Watsonian explanation for the discrepancy, because I prefer a smooth continuity for my own peace of mind. In no way am I trying to say that this interpretation is actually what JB intended when he wrote DM, just that an logical explanation that jives with what we know now is indeed possible. If I could find an in-world reason for Molly's age to change (that doesnt involve Time Travel or mirror world theories because shoot me :P) or the Bianca Assistant Name Change, I would.
Hell, Im the guy tried to say the differences between James Marster's narration and John Glover was due to how a difference in Harry sounded while an immaterial Ghost.
Now I KNOW you have too much time on your hands.There was doubt? ;)
Now I KNOW you have too much time on your hands.
Any true believer in the Church of Jim Butcher knows that the Holy Texts can not possibly have inconsistencies in them, and that that the only reason we seem to find such is because we do not fully eff His ineffable will.
We thank brother Quantus for his extreme diligence in his ceaseless drive to enlighten the rest of us unwashed masses. Truly he is of the few blessed chosen. ;)
There is no god but Jim Butcher and Priscellie is his prophet.
5-10) Jim is humanly flawed. :)
Any true believer in the Church of Jim Butcher knows that the Holy Texts can not possibly have inconsistencies in them, and that that the only reason we seem to find such is because we do not fully eff His ineffable will.hahah, nice 8)
We thank brother Quantus for his extreme diligence in his ceaseless drive to enlighten the rest of us unwashed masses. Truly he is of the few blessed chosen. ;)
There is no god but Jim Butcher and Priscellie is his prophet.
Where is your God (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,11009.msg462569.html#msg462569) now? ;)In Glorious Paradox.
That's not really an inconsistency. Faeries are pretty fast in general, and Lea had Maggie Sr.'s NN notes. Lea has the stamina to not worry much about whatever NN environment she's going into next, so no slowing down there. Not to mention whatever option Odin came up with post-Chichen Itza is probably available to her in a pinch. Shadowing Harry shouldn't be all that difficult for Lea. Basically, "close" is relative to the ability to travel quickly.
1. Showing up in 5 minutes no matter WHERE he was in the NN takes more than knowing the ways. (GP)Says who? I can't see Lea being any slower than Thomas, and he can go fast enough that you wouldn't see him take down someone as per "It's My Birthday, Too". Plus in Changes, she was keeping up with all the doggies as herself with absolutely no trouble. Add to that that Chicago is a major nexus of Ways, so odds are that wherever Lea was would probably have a quick path to get to Chicago anyway.
2. She had to bargain with Odin to get the insta-gate (Changes).
3. All the beings chasing Harry from AT could not catch Harry and Team (PG).
So we have to reconcile all the places that Harry went in GP and say they are very near her garden in the NN - which makes no sense as Agatha Hagglethorn lived in her own pocket dimension.
1. Showing up in 5 minutes no matter WHERE he was in the NN takes more than knowing the ways. (GP)the thing is Lea has been watching over Harry. she pops out to save him at Ruel's apt, she pops out to save him at the supermarket, she pops out in the cemetery to save him. places close in the real world could have distances of being on opposite ends of the NN yet she is always there. she has told him that. he even puts it together when she tells him an he thinks of the time w/ Agatha. so I definitely think this leads to her knowing shortcuts as well as insta travel similar to Odin's.
2. She had to bargain with Odin to get the insta-gate (Changes).
3. All the beings chasing Harry from AT could not catch Harry and Team (PG).
So we have to reconcile all the places that Harry went in GP and say they are very near her garden in the NN - which makes no sense as Agatha Hagglethorn lived in her own pocket dimension.
the thing is Lea has been watching over Harry. she pops out to save him at Ruel's apt, she pops out to save him at the supermarket, she pops out in the cemetery to save him. places close in the real world could have distances of being on opposite ends of the NN yet she is always there. she has told him that. he even puts it together when she tells him an he thinks of the time w/ Agatha. so I definitely think this leads to her knowing shortcuts as well as insta travel similar to Odin's.I doubt she can do the same point-to-point Gate that Odin did, simply because she had to bargain "aggressively" to get him to do it, and it would have had far less value if she could do it herself. Other than that I fully expect they can travel far far faster than Harry or even his mother could ever hope to, simply because it's an innate part of them like all their other magic, and the travel in particular is something even the Little Folk get. Granted it would have likely been much harder on Lea if Harry hadnt settled in suhc a massive nexus of Ways.
the armies coming to AT were fighting through time dilation. something which we know Erl does not work with as he tells us in CD. he was the one leading the charge. so Harry was able to maintain a lead for awhile till they reached the gate.
yes it took longer because Harry was leading the way through the NN to get to CI. he never asked Lea for help or guidance.
So, you are saying that Lea AT ALL TIMES was watching Harry. She was NEVER EVER doing anything else.If she considered it to be an implied duty as Godmother then absolutely. Or more accurately, she /kept a watch on him/. It wouldnt have to be a 24/7 personal duty, so long as she was confident of her response time should something occur.
Per the quote I posted, that's not what she said. It is, I admit, the most common and arguably the most logical interpretation, however.Per the quote you posted, that's exactly what she said.
"My mother passed it on to me," she replied. "As I was born, just as she received it when she was born."She's clearly saying this is how the Archive works.
Per the quote I posted, that's not explicitly/literally what she said. It is, I admit, the most common and arguably the most logical interpretation, however. It all hinges on whether she was interpreting the question of her "gig" as Archive being the Fate/Duty of it, or the actual "Comforted" is a pretty big stretch. That implies positive emotions, or really any emotions at all, which were not evident in that scene. The closest she gets is referring to her mother as "Free of It". Otherwise she jsut tells Harry that she has no need to be Sorry for her mother dying because she knowsYes, that is what she said. She says that she got the Archive the same way her Mother did, in a way that is clearly meant to say, "This is how it works." She says she doesn't even understand why Dresden would be sorry, because her mother lives on in her head. That's the opposite of what you'd expect if the mother living in her head hated her so much and was so disgusted that she killed herself to spite her.
...I give up. It was just a means to help even out people's head-cannon anyway