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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: Griffyn612 on February 13, 2015, 05:19:17 PM
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I'm looking for theories on Who attacked Arctis Tor , and specifically What was their Motivation?
I can't see anything but two scenarios, as I don't see an actual motivation for anyone else other than those two. But Eldest Gruff opinioned in another thread that there may be other factions with motivations to attack Arctis Tor. I'd like to see what others think about the who and why of the attack.
Specifically, please provide at least the name of the group involved, and an actual reason for their attack.
i.e. (the only two theories I see as being legitimate)
The Circle
Who: The 'Circle', a faction of powerful beings working together with common goals, while also pursuing personal gain and personal own goals.
> Theoretical Members: Cowl, Maeve, Vito Malvora, Thorned Namshiel, Arianna Ortega, Lord Raith, Lord Omogh, Peabody, others
> Participated in the Attack: Thorned Namshiel, unknown others
When: During the events of DEAD BEAT
> When Harry summoned Lea and Mab came instead, the Circle took their shot. Maeve opened a gate to Arctis Tor for her allies and then sped up time at Arctis Tor. In the minutes that Mab was away, hours passed at Arctis Tor, and the Circle had ample time to press the defenders. When Mab returned, the attackers were routed before they got to the Winter Garden.
Why: Multiple goals, including weaken Winter, occupy Winter's forces, retrieve Lea
> The events of DEAD BEAT were epic in scale. The Red Court nearly wiped out the White Council. Their attacks should have kept the White Council too busy to respond to the Darkhallow attempt. If it had succeeded, Cowl would have then had the power to finish off the White Council. But to harass the wizards in Faerie would draw the ire of the Fae courts. The attack on Arctis Tor successfully put Winter into a defensive mode, which then did the same for Summer, thus freeing the Ways for the Ramps to pursue the White Court.
> Lea might also have been a member of the Circle, as she was working with some of its theoretical members in GRAVE PERIL. If so, they would want to free her so that she could join them in taking on Mab. Lea is only second to Mab in Winter, and with her and Maeve combining forces with the other Circle attackers, they might have stood a shot at defeating Mab.
Relevant Plot Details
> The Fae's inaction during the Ramps' initial intrusion two days prior to the Darkhallow are explained by Luccio, in that the Fae were caught off-guard. But the Fae's inactivity for the next nine months goes unexplained, other than Winter being on guard at the border, and thus occupying Summer. There doesn't seem to be a reason for Winter to guard the border prior to the attack on Arctis Tor. But if it had already been attacked, and Mab was in hyper-defensive mode because of the betrayals involved, it would explain the entire time-span.
> The speed up of time in Arctis Tor to allow time for the attack is supported by the events of PROVEN GUILTY. While just minutes passed in Arctis Tor, a day passed in the real world. Using the reverse flow, hours could have passed in Arctis Tor while minutes passed in the real world, when Mab was speaking with Harry.
> This theory gives a credible explanation to how Mab found out about Maeve's betrayal. She was still speaking as of DEAD BEAT, but we know that some point after Harry's talk with her at the lake, Mab learned of Maeve's betrayal/infection.
> This theory does not address the smell of hellfire that still lingered around Arctis Tor nine months later in PROVEN GUILTY. But it does allow for enough time for the remains of the fallen warriors to rot away to bones.
The Outsiders/NemesisFormerlyKnownAsBlackCouncil
Who: Nemesis agents and summoned Outsiders
> Theoretical members: Namshiel, Maeve, others we haven't seen
When: Some time after the events of DEAD BEAT, but before Harry's arrival in Arctis Tor in PROVEN GUILTY
> In PROVEN GUILTY, Harry advises that the attack could have taken place thousands of years ago or just minutes. The intensity of the emotions he got from the scene made it seem more recent, but the decayed bodies implied older. Some point between DEAD BEAT and Harry's raid would be enough of a window for these to both be true.
Why: Defeat Mab, Weaken Winter, Draw troops from the Gates, Free Lea, Winter Wellspring target
> As the leader of Winter, Mab is the choice target for the Outsiders to defeat. If they were able to reach her and defeat her, infected Maeve would become the person in charge of the Gates.
> The attack could have been aimed at drawing troops from the Gates. With all of Winter already on guard around Winter's borders, they might have been under the impression that others would come to the aide of Arctis Tor under attack.
> Infected Lea likely has information, albeit limited, on Nemesis and how it works. On top of that, she's a powerful ally second only to Mab in Winter. If they could free her, at minimum they'd be regaining a powerful ally and removing Mab's access to intelligence on Nemesis. At best, Lea could then turn against Mab along with the attackers, and possibly defeat her with their help. If not, then they'd at least have a powerful ally with intricate knowledge of the defense of the Gates who could help attack them from within with other forces.
> Part of me wonders if there isn't also a threat to Winter if something happens to its Wellspring. I'm not sure that it could be corrupted per se, since Mab locked up an infected Lea in it. But part of me wonders if by attacking the Wellspring with a lot of power, it might weaken Winter in some capacity, however briefly, that would help the attackers at the Gates.
Relevant Plot Points
> This theory does not explain why Winter is on guard for the full nine months between DEAD BEAT and PROVEN GUILTY. It makes sense to be on guard after the attack on Arctis Tor, but not before.
> This theory explains who there could be time enough for the bodies to have decomposed, and also a short enough time to leave the traces of hellfire in the air.
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Wait, the Black Circle and the Black Council are synonymous. The Outsiders are the Outsiders, they are not the same as the Black Council.
They may work together on occasion, but they are not the same, as far as I know.
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You might also want to add an option for "Other", just in case. ;)
...<cough> Time Travel </cough> ::)
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You might also want to add an option for "Other", just in case. ;)
...<cough> Time Travel </cough> ::)
Don't encourage He who must not be given a Tardis.
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Honestly, I think that the Outsiders are the only ones with the oomph to even think of taking Mab on in the heart of her own power. Yes, Cowl and the rest of the Circle represent a power that could go toe-to-toe with the Senior Council in a fair fight any day, but if I remember correctly, Jim said something about how it would take basically everyone who took on Kemmler, PLUS knowing Mab's Name and isolating her from her power to even put a dent in her defenses.
As for the Hellfire, maybe Nemesis meat puppeted Nammy-boy over there?
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My personal WAG is that there was a breakthrough at the Outer Gates. Rashid came to Chicago to warn Harry about black magic and to repair little Chicago (possibly under Mab's orders to do so) and while he was there, the outer gates were breached and Nemesis gathered as many follower as it could to use it to press their advantage to attack Mab. Thats why Namsciel was there, and whoever else Nemesis could muster. The point of the attack was multiple-fold, but the primary one was to give the Red Court the chance to press its attack on the white council, since it forced Winter to remain on the defensive and Summer to counter the inaction with inaction of their own (silly Sidhe!). Another possible motive of the attack was to try to free Lea, quite possibly the most powerful being we know of that it managed to nfect.
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At its root I think "Outsiders" explains it all. As for motivation... let's see. Harry says he smelled Hellfire. That would mean one of the Fallen was involved. Which means there was a Denarian in place: we presume Thorned Namshiel. As we've discussed the likelihood that Nico is working against Outsiders (and if we also presume Namshiel was following Nico's orders at AT) then it would seem that someone was going after Outsider influence... destroy Lea and/or Maeve or,(iirc the presumption was that Mab was insane/infected at the time) Mab (though tough to credit that -- a lesser powered target would be easier). In the other case, where Namshiel was going against Nico's orders, then it would look like a rescue mission for Lea. Other incidentals such as the attack on the Wellspring are just 'addons' -- targets of opportunity. Remember, the bigger players (like Nico) rarely do anything for just one reason.
So, seems to me that (with as few names as we have to work with) we have to decide first whether Namshiel was working for or against Nico. What we've been given seems to suggest strongly that it's against... but, hey, Nico's been known to lie before.... We need something more solid before it can go much further, in my estimation.
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Wait, the Black Circle and the Black Council are synonymous. The Outsiders are the Outsiders, they are not the same as the Black Council.
They may work together on occasion, but they are not the same, as far as I know.
Yeah. Harry definitely lumped Cowl in as the Black Council, which Cowl calls the Circle. Now, they may or may not be connected with the Outsiders, and Harry doesn't know what's going on with anything resembling certainty, but when he's talking about the Black Council, he's meaning the Circle. Even if he's wrong, that's what he means.
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You might also want to add an option for "Other", just in case. ;)
...<cough> Time Travel </cough> ::)
Don't encourage He who must not be given a Tardis.
Was my name just called?
Consider this, there is a IN MAB and an OUT MAB. They each get turns to play. IN MAB is countering OUT MAB. Karrin plays a pivotal role in countering a Nemesis favored Mab.
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I keep going back to this WoJ (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10920.msg462550.html#msg462550):
which begs the question how badass does a badass have to be to wound Mab as such?
The Wild Hunt lead by a couple of Denarians such at Thorned Namshiel, The Erlking and a bunch of Outsiders could get the job done. That would have been a fight to see (from a distance).
Nah, they wouldn't even come close. I mean... it's like comparing apples and... and hand grenades.
Just about the best they could hope to accomplish would be to force Mab to make an effort. Though when Mab came for them, it wouldn't be a kick-down-the-door-and kick-ass kind of encounter. It would be a One-two-three-four-five-Hey-weren't-there SIX-of-us-here-a-second-ago? situation.
So even with a mix of Outsiders and Denarians, there is zero chance of hurting Mab.
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I keep going back to this WoJ (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10920.msg462550.html#msg462550):
Nah, they wouldn't even come close. I mean... it's like comparing apples and... and hand grenades.
Just about the best they could hope to accomplish would be to force Mab to make an effort. Though when Mab came for them, it wouldn't be a kick-down-the-door-and kick-ass kind of encounter. It would be a One-two-three-four-five-Hey-weren't-there SIX-of-us-here-a-second-ago? situation.
So even with a mix of Outsiders and Denarians, there is zero chance of hurting Mab.
SK has Lea telling Harry specifically that Mab and Titania are powers equivalent to Archangels and lesser deities. That's pretty tough. If Mab has power roughly equivalent to Uriel (archangel) who can destroy galaxies with only a little effort, I don't think a couple of Denarians (who are not Fallen themselves) and a few B-movie 'tentacled horrors' are gonna present much of a threat.
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about the vector of power, ot was in a thread a few weeks ago, but is most likely buried under pages of stuff, I believe it was in TC chapt 1. Prolly best way is to look up what Jim has posted. He also confirmed that Mab is injured not crazy.
Then again, "crazy" is generally considered to be a lack of connection with reality--and a lot of characters in the Dresden Files can MAKE reality. They might have a seriously skewed idea of the way reality should be, but if they can make it happen then they aren't crazy, per se. :)
Jim
I wanted to ask about the girl at Dresden’s grave. Was it Mab or Leah? Or was she someone else?
Mab and Demonreach both made sure they had a proxy present in those two conversations at Dresden’s grave.
One Proxy of Mab was when she was IN other was when she was OUT.
But no one does cold-blooded like the Queen of Winter. Mab's been in the business a long time, she's got a balance sheet, and she is *not* going to come out in the red--
--unless, of course, she really *has* stripped a gear, as Lily and Maeve believe. In which case there's a stark raving bonkers demigoddess whose powers are no longer being held in check by the Escher-esque code of Sidhe behavior. And that's all kinds of bad.
But hey. It's probably not that. I mean, not *everything* that happens can be the absolute worst possible possibility, right? >:D
Jim
Mab IS infected. (She has split personality at the moment due to being IN and OUT)
Think of it as a wavelength. Say she spans a large section of REALITY. Some of these realities are getting severly chewed upon by Nemesis, others are fairly stable. She has very strong will, so even in nemesis favored territory she can counter Nemesis though not as adroitly when she is in reality favored territory.
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My vote goes for "other" at this point, because I think there were allies involved. There is evidence of Denarian involvement, or someone or thing that could use Hell Fire, Harry confirmed that.. We know in the war against the Reds, there were Outsiders involved in the battles.. There were traders on the Senior Council, most likely working for the Circle.. There is also evidence that the attack was a tactic, and there was some kind of long game thing going on with Summer. It could be another group we haven't even heard of yet, using everyone as a gigantic cat's paw.
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ok. I always said that PG was the trickiest book yet. layers upon layers. this is a look at how Mab works. she and Titania worked out a deal or Mab calculated even better than I think.
the attack would never have won through. it was meant to allow Harry a chance to get Molly. Harry would never had been able to gain access and win through if the fortress wasn't hammered already. this was the favor Mab owed Nico I think.
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ok. I always said that PG was the trickiest book yet. layers upon layers. this is a look at how Mab works. she and Titania worked out a deal or Mab calculated even better than I think.
the attack would never have won through. it was meant to allow Harry a chance to get Molly. Harry would never had been able to gain access and win through if the fortress wasn't hammered already. this was the favor Mab owed Nico I think.
Mab owed Anduriel a favor from way back when she became watcher over the Outer Gates, there is a WOJ floating around about it from not that long ago. Nothing to do with Arctis Tor.
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We have confirmation in Small Favor that Nic had no clue that any of the Fallen (at least any in his court) were present at AT. IIRC, Harry pretty much calls out Nic about the attack when they had the convo at the Shea and Nic blinked in shock and hsi manner did seem to change has his brain was going overdrive at who among the fallen would do it...and why.
So we can count Nic is not involved in any form with the attack in PG.
Next question is Thorny acting alone or in concert with other Fallen on this?
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The Fallen (Thorned Namshiel), and Black Council.
"Near the end of Small Favor, Mab says that she and the Archangel Uriel had a common enemy that day, that there was one among the Fallen who had to answer for the Hellfire attack on Arctis Tor. Harry remembers the silvery hand and infers that Mab means Black Council and Thorned Namshiel."
http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Namshiel
My guess is that those in power know shits going to go down. They are forming alliances for when it does. I don't think the Outsiders were responsible but the reason why everyone is so jumpy.
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Wait, the Black Circle and the Black Council are synonymous. The Outsiders are the Outsiders, they are not the same as the Black Council.
They may work together on occasion, but they are not the same, as far as I know.
Going off the WoJ below, I'm convinced there is no 'Black Council'. The 'Black Council' is actually Nemesis and the Outsiders manipulating things. I'm willing to concede that there may be a Circle, which is incorporating mortal/monster cooperation. But the 'Black Council' that showed up in COLD DAYS was revealed to be Nemesis & Co.
How soon are we going to see more direct contact with Cowl and the Black Court (sic, the context sounds like "Council")?
Next book [at the time, Cold Days]. Yeah, next book we’ll see them again Actually, this will be really the first time I get to have them be more active than behind the scenes in terms of what role they’re playing.
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Going off the WoJ below, I'm convinced there is no 'Black Council'. The 'Black Council' is actually Nemesis and the Outsiders manipulating things. I'm willing to concede that there may be a Circle, which is incorporating mortal/monster cooperation. But the 'Black Council' that showed up in COLD DAYS was revealed to be Nemesis & Co.
The other thing could be that Jim changed his mind between saying that and writing the book. He's pushed stuff back before, as I recall.
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The other thing could be that Jim changed his mind between saying that and writing the book. He's pushed stuff back before, as I recall.
That's possible, which is why I'm giving the 'Circle' option as the old 'Black Council' Harry theorized. But there aren't two, that much I'm convinced of. Not actively, anyways. There's only the Outsiders and the Circle, and all the convoluted relationships between them.
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We have confirmation in Small Favor that Nic had no clue that any of the Fallen (at least any in his court) were present at AT. IIRC, Harry pretty much calls out Nic about the attack when they had the convo at the Shea and Nic blinked in shock and hsi manner did seem to change has his brain was going overdrive at who among the fallen would do it...and why.
So we can count Nic is not involved in any form with the attack in PG.
Next question is Thorny acting alone or in concert with other Fallen on this?
The Hellfire produced was in Harry's estimation far greater than he could produce, so either it was a whole passle of Denarians working together, or it was a user of Hellfire more powerful than a Denarian. Fallen Archangel perhaps?
It would make sense if it was the Big Guy behind everything.
Left in Arctis actor was the I egged Lea, perhaps she was the target.
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Keep in mind, the barges were not stolen by a bunch of Outsiders in the middle of the night, they were rented, along with pretty much every other boat available. And the people inside the barges were mortals, even if there were Outsiders protecting the barges in the water.
That means manpower, and resources and someone with sufficient magical knowhow to figure out a spell to unravel Merlin's creation of Demonreach.
Nemesis has gone corporate.
Harry's great arrogance was in assuming that the people in charge of the Circle were wizards opposing the White Council. Cold Days taught him that the White Council is just a sideshow in all this.
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Going off the WoJ below, I'm convinced there is no 'Black Council'. The 'Black Council' is actually Nemesis and the Outsiders manipulating things. I'm willing to concede that there may be a Circle, which is incorporating mortal/monster cooperation. But the 'Black Council' that showed up in COLD DAYS was revealed to be Nemesis & Co.
Nemesis is just a tool or cat's paw for what Mother Summer called simply, The Enemy...
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Mab owed Anduriel a favor from way back when she became watcher over the Outer Gates, there is a WOJ floating around about it from not that long ago. Nothing to do with Arctis Tor.
never seen it. i still stand behind Mab involved in it more so than an enemy attack. that reads more like deception than threat. if the debt is as you say, i can easily switch gears to a tricked Denarion lead/ Circle grp trying a fast strike to free Lea. they were set-up by Mab thus clearing the way for Harry.
cause seriously, you think Harry was getting in there if it wasn't wrecked?
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Nemesis is just a tool or cat's paw for what Mother Summer called simply, The Enemy...
Or 'The Enemy' is another nickname for Nemesis, like 'The Adversary'.
But I agree that there's a chance Nemesis is just a Walker, in which case the Big Bad is still the Outsiders, but we haven't seen the master. Probably Lord of Slowest Terror.
never seen it. i still stand behind Mab involved in it more so than an enemy attack. that reads more like deception than threat. if the debt is as you say, i can easily switch gears to a tricked Denarion lead/ Circle grp trying a fast strike to free Lea. they were set-up by Mab thus clearing the way for Harry.
cause seriously, you think Harry was getting in there if it wasn't wrecked?
I don't think Harry would have had to go there if it wasn't wrecked. I also don't think Mab would allow someone to destroy her home and its guards just to lure someone in. Especially since it appears that at least some of them (Namshiel and others that she said would pay) are still at large. And the fact that she seemed upset about people attacking her place. Of course, Marcone acting mad that one of his people got killed in his own plot that used his place sounds similar. Maybe both of them are nuts.
The Hellfire produced was in Harry's estimation far greater than he could produce, so either it was a whole passle of Denarians working together, or it was a user of Hellfire more powerful than a Denarian. Fallen Archangel perhaps?
It would make sense if it was the Big Guy behind everything.
Left in Arctis actor was the I egged Lea, perhaps she was the target.
It was greater than Harry could produce as a non-Denarian who hadn't taken up the coin. There's always the chance that an actual Bearer with magical ability (like Namshiel apparently had) could tap more power than Harry ever got.
My vote goes for "other" at this point, because I think there were allies involved. There is evidence of Denarian involvement, or someone or thing that could use Hell Fire, Harry confirmed that.. We know in the war against the Reds, there were Outsiders involved in the battles.. There were traders on the Senior Council, most likely working for the Circle.. There is also evidence that the attack was a tactic, and there was some kind of long game thing going on with Summer. It could be another group we haven't even heard of yet, using everyone as a gigantic cat's paw.
If you provide a who and why I'll add them to the list.
SK has Lea telling Harry specifically that Mab and Titania are powers equivalent to Archangels and lesser deities. That's pretty tough. If Mab has power roughly equivalent to Uriel (archangel) who can destroy galaxies with only a little effort, I don't think a couple of Denarians (who are not Fallen themselves) and a few B-movie 'tentacled horrors' are gonna present much of a threat.
Did she say archangels? Because no way. I think she must have meant angels. Uriel can destroy galaxies. Mab can, at most, destroy Earth, or all of reality if she neglected her duties. But I think if she did that, the Mothers would get involved.
I keep going back to this WoJ (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,10920.msg462550.html#msg462550):
Nah, they wouldn't even come close. I mean... it's like comparing apples and... and hand grenades.
Just about the best they could hope to accomplish would be to force Mab to make an effort. Though when Mab came for them, it wouldn't be a kick-down-the-door-and kick-ass kind of encounter. It would be a One-two-three-four-five-Hey-weren't-there SIX-of-us-here-a-second-ago? situation.
So even with a mix of Outsiders and Denarians, there is zero chance of hurting Mab.
That's why my 'Circle Attack' theory fits. It postulates that Mab wasn't there. And if Maeve did the time slowdown, then the couple of minutes Mab and Harry chatted could have been hours. Then when Mab came back, she kicked ass, while also realizing that Maeve was infected to be working with the bad guys against her.
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One aspect to consider- the raiders either left no casualties or they were indistinguishable from the winter fae defenders.
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One aspect to consider- the raiders either left no casualties or they were indistinguishable from the winter fae defenders.
Yeah, Harry mentions thousands of human-like skeletons, but we've no way of knowing if they were defenders, ramps, Fomor, servitors, or something else. the burned state of some implies defenders, but not all were burned.
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So, I have enjoyed the many thoughtful posts in this thread. It has led me to another question. I don't have a theory yet, but wanted to post it to allow others to add it to the questions here.
If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue? It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force. Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending? If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.
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'The Enemy' is another nickname for Nemesis, like 'The Adversary'.
"The Enemy", "Nemesis", "The Adversary". Before (Hope slayer), Behind ( Terror), Beside. Fidelacchius (Sword of Hope), Esperacchius (Sword of Faith), Amoracchius (Sword of Love). Dunno if it means anything but maybe each sword is a counter to the Walkers.
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So, I have enjoyed the many thoughtful posts in this thread. It has led me to another question. I don't have a theory yet, but wanted to post it to allow others to add it to the questions here.
If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue? It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force. Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending? If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.
Or scarier thought: the attacking force was so powerful that Mab only just managed to beat it off.
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"The Enemy", "Nemesis", "The Adversary". Before (Hope slayer), Behind ( Terror), Beside. Fidelacchius (Sword of Hope), Esperacchius (Sword of Faith), Amoracchius (Sword of Love). Dunno if it means anything but maybe each sword is a counter to the Walkers.
Possibly. The feeling that Harry got from Behind in GHOST STORY's flashback was a sense of pure Hate. That would seem to be the antithesis of Love. Before being the Hopeslayer makes its equivalent obvious, leaving Faith and Beside. Since my personal belief is that Nemesis is Beside, and it's method is betrayal of trust, it might work to erode Faith in each other.
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So, I have enjoyed the many thoughtful posts in this thread. It has led me to another question. I don't have a theory yet, but wanted to post it to allow others to add it to the questions here.
If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue? It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force. Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending? If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.
There was definitely something else going on there, Harry himself notes it in the Book:
"That's the part I can't figure," I said. "I think someone set Molly up to be a beacon for the fetches. And I'm damned sure that it was no accident that those fetches took Molly to Arctis Tor when it was so lightly defended. Someone wanted me there at Arctis Tor."
It could be that Mab just took the losses despite not having to because she wanted Harry to rescue Molly. There's also the fact that it was the attack on Arctis Tor that triggered Harry's realisation about the 'Black Council' moving behind events.
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Yeah, Mab allowing her citadel to be attacked and nearly overrun just to allow Harry to rescue Molly from there seems like a stretch. I got the feeling that Molly being taken there, and Harry coming to rescue her from there, was Mab's attempt to let Harry see what had already happened there.
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Wait, the Black Circle and the Black Council are synonymous.
The Circle is an organisation that actually exists. So far as we know they're involved in WN, and maybe DB; and they may or may not be the same Circle the Eebs talk about in Changes,
The Black Council is a theory of Harry's that one organisation is behind a lot more than that.
It seems important to me to not casually assume they are interchangeable.
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I can't see anything but two scenarios, as I don't see an actual motivation for anyone else other than those two.
the Hellfire blowing the doors in and killing the trolls and goblins being by a Denarian working for Mab, with the intent of letting Harry in to kill the Scarecrow and rescue Molly, fits together and is different from either of those two; and it doesn't even (necessarily) involve time-travel.
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the Hellfire blowing the doors in and killing the trolls and goblins being by a Denarian working for Mab, with the intent of letting Harry in to kill the Scarecrow and rescue Molly, fits together and is different from either of those two; and it doesn't even (necessarily) involve time-travel.
A single Denarian killing thousands of Arctis Tor defenders for Mab, only to let Harry in? Why not just order all of the defenders away from Arctis Tor as part of the guard-the-borders program that was running? You don't needlessly waste resources, you don't put yourself into debt (or cash in a token) for something unnecessary, and you don't pretend to make yourself look vulnerable.
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So, I have enjoyed the many thoughtful posts in this thread. It has led me to another question. I don't have a theory yet, but wanted to post it to allow others to add it to the questions here.
If the WoJ is that Mab is as powerful as stated, then why did she the attack on Arctus Tor to continue? It seems to me that given the location that she could have shown up and pretty much crushed any attacking force. Which leads me to ask, why do we think Winter was defending? If Mab was distracted, Maeve could have been in control of Arctus Tor and that the battle was an attempt to retake it.
I see one of two possibilities for this coupled with Maeve being in control of the forces at that time...possibly her failure hinted to Mab that something was seriously wrong with her. But either theory requires Mab to be 'indisposed'.
Option 1: Mab was AT the Outer Gates. We know from Rashid that certain years the battling is more intense than others. The Red Court's decimating of the Council forces coupled with their 'invasion' of Fae territory in the NeverNever was both done with the help of them calling up Outsiders. What if a subsequent or parallel push was made at the Gates themselves, enough that Mab HAD to step in even if just briefly. This is either a plan to get her away from Arctis Tor to attack it, OR they are just opportunistic enough to take advantage while she is gone and Maeve is probably in charge with Lea incapacitated.
Option 2: Mab was busy curing Lea. This is admittedly the weaker of the two choices because we still don't have nearly enough information regarding Nemesis, how it infects, and what it takes to rid a person of their influence. But supposing for a moment that it requires someone more or less of Mab's power to eradicate it thoroughly from the system, that could take some working...maybe she has to slip into Lea's consciousness and actively burn Nemesis away. As she is busy at work, enemy forces are at the gate ready to strike because Maeve has informed them she is in charge while Mab sees to Lea.
Either way I think overall Maeve WAS in control of the forces at Arctis Tor for some reason or another. Whether Mab is at the Gates or in Lea's head she could still be aware of what is going on around her, (hence the statue wink), but could not pull away from one of those tasks because doing so would mean she lost something...either a pivotal battle, or her right hand woman.
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My best guess of what happened given we've seen nashciel, (spelling? sry), and tessa since, and they're probably the only two that could have pulled it off, is that the denarian was just hired to blow in the doors and wisely GTFOOH'd after doing so. The main attack was outsider plus Black Council who'd summoned them. A whole metric ton of them. Assuming Mab won't to mostly avoid friendly fire at first she's going to have to target her attacks carefully and the outsiders are pretty magic resistance so she could genuinely have issues hitting more than a handful at once from a simple power control PoV. Eventually the attackers start to win through and Mab decides to invoke the Nuclear option and just mass cleanse the whole of Arctis Tor Fae and Outsider alike.
Also semi-related WAG. Anyone want to bet Arctis Minor is now positioned on the NN side of the Carpenter household?
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Just going to add this for consideration.
The bones piled higher as I went, forcing me to walk atop them as best I could.
...
Bones spilled out in a wave from the gate, rapidly tapering off after a few yards. Beyond that were only scattered groupings of bones.
...
The remains of perhaps a thousand creatures lay scattered about.
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“These trolls were her personal guard.” I gestured back at the gate. “Covering her retreat to the tower, maybe. Some of them got taken down along the way. The others made a stand at the tower’s base. Died there.”
But I had noticed something. Those layers and mounds of shale? They weren’t shale. They were bones. Millions and millions and millions of fucktons of bones.
Harry clearly describes piles of bones lying in the remnants of Arctis Tor's defenses. The only other time I can recall piles of bones is in COLD DAYS, describing the bones of the fallen guards at the gates. There would seem to be a correlation there.
And I can't see Mab sacrificing at least a dozen or more of her personal guard along with a thousand other troops just to let Harry stroll into Arctis Tor. If Harry is right, then whoever was attacking Arctis Tor had Mab retreating. That's got to be a seriously powerful coalition of troops, even if they were someone like the Circle with Outsider support. It makes me think of the horde of Outsiders we saw in COLD DAYS storming Demonreach.
Of course, maybe the bones weren't all defenders. Maybe they were the attackers too. Maybe it was Circle and Ramps and Outsiders and others all working together, and some of those bones are Ramps and such. But still, I can't see all of that being a setup for Harry walking in to save Molly.
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Pretty sure the similarity between the two situations with bones is that there were a lot of dead bodies around.
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Pretty sure the similarity between the two situations with bones is that there were a lot of dead bodies around.
(http://www.thestickerfactory.co.uk/images/products/main/401.png)
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Just going to add this for consideration.
Harry clearly describes piles of bones lying in the remnants of Arctis Tor's defenses. The only other time I can recall piles of bones is in COLD DAYS, describing the bones of the fallen guards at the gates. There would seem to be a correlation there.
And I can't see Mab sacrificing at least a dozen or more of her personal guard along with a thousand other troops just to let Harry stroll into Arctis Tor. If Harry is right, then whoever was attacking Arctis Tor had Mab retreating. That's got to be a seriously powerful coalition of troops, even if they were someone like the Circle with Outsider support. It makes me think of the horde of Outsiders we saw in COLD DAYS storming Demonreach.
Of course, maybe the bones weren't all defenders. Maybe they were the attackers too. Maybe it was Circle and Ramps and Outsiders and others all working together, and some of those bones are Ramps and such. But still, I can't see all of that being a setup for Harry walking in to save Molly.
I see one of two possibilities for this coupled with Maeve being in control of the forces at that time...possibly her failure hinted to Mab that something was seriously wrong with her. But either theory requires Mab to be 'indisposed'.
Option 1: Mab was AT the Outer Gates. We know from Rashid that certain years the battling is more intense than others. The Red Court's decimating of the Council forces coupled with their 'invasion' of Fae territory in the NeverNever was both done with the help of them calling up Outsiders. What if a subsequent or parallel push was made at the Gates themselves, enough that Mab HAD to step in even if just briefly. This is either a plan to get her away from Arctis Tor to attack it, OR they are just opportunistic enough to take advantage while she is gone and Maeve is probably in charge with Lea incapacitated.
Option 2: Mab was busy curing Lea. This is admittedly the weaker of the two choices because we still don't have nearly enough information regarding Nemesis, how it infects, and what it takes to rid a person of their influence. But supposing for a moment that it requires someone more or less of Mab's power to eradicate it thoroughly from the system, that could take some working...maybe she has to slip into Lea's consciousness and actively burn Nemesis away. As she is busy at work, enemy forces are at the gate ready to strike because Maeve has informed them she is in charge while Mab sees to Lea.
Either way I think overall Maeve WAS in control of the forces at Arctis Tor for some reason or another. Whether Mab is at the Gates or in Lea's head she could still be aware of what is going on around her, (hence the statue wink), but could not pull away from one of those tasks because doing so would mean she lost something...either a pivotal battle, or her right hand woman.
What if the retreating person was Maeve? She could easily play off 'running' as she is already infected AND probably part of the plan to some degree.
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What if the retreating person was Maeve? She could easily play off 'running' as she is already infected AND probably part of the plan to some degree.
Wait, I think there's a divergence in theory here.
Namkas seemed to be implying that Mab was absent, and Maeve took over Arctis Tor. Then there was a battle to retake Arctis Tor. But who was retaking it? Mab? Why would she need fire to destroy her gates? Or did Maeve attack Arctis Tor to take it? Why would Mab's personal guard be guarding Maeve when she retreated from Mab?
Or is it that Mab was at the Gates, so she left Maeve in charge of defense at Arctis Tor? And then the bad guys attacked Arctis Tor, and Maeve subtly sabotaged the defensive efforts, which almost caused Arctis Tor to fall?
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Wait, I think there's a divergence in theory here.
Namkas seemed to be implying that Mab was absent, and Maeve took over Arctis Tor. Then there was a battle to retake Arctis Tor. But who was retaking it? Mab? Why would she need fire to destroy her gates? Or did Maeve attack Arctis Tor to take it? Why would Mab's personal guard be guarding Maeve when she retreated from Mab?
Or is it that Mab was at the Gates, so she left Maeve in charge of defense at Arctis Tor? And then the bad guys attacked Arctis Tor, and Maeve subtly sabotaged the defensive efforts, which almost caused Arctis Tor to fall?
The two theories I posited above were that either Mab was at the Gates or curing Lea. Either way Maeve was in charge of Arctis Tor at the time and 'allowed' a breach which she maybe thought she could play off as incompetence, overwhelming force or some such excuse but might have alerted Mab in the end to her actually being afflicted by Nemesis.
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The two theories I posited above were that either Mab was at the Gates or curing Lea. Either way Maeve was in charge of Arctis Tor at the time and 'allowed' a breach which she maybe thought she could play off as incompetence, overwhelming force or some such excuse but might have alerted Mab in the end to her actually being afflicted by Nemesis.
Fair enough. What would the goal be, though? Free Lea, if Mab is at the Gates? Or defeat Mab if she were busy and distracted? Or both, if she's there?
I've added it as an option, since it's specific enough to differentiate from just a general Circle or Outsider attack.
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Fair enough. What would the goal be, though? Free Lea, if Mab is at the Gates? Or defeat Mab if she were busy and distracted? Or both, if she's there?
I've added it as an option, since it's specific enough to differentiate from just a general Circle or Outsider attack.
Strike a blow at the heart of Winter while Mab is otherwise occupied maybe. Gauge how well their hold over Maeve is progressing if it is an Outsider led offensive. If it is another party, they likely do not know that Mab is the protector of the Outer Gates and perhaps simply saw an opportunity to attack while she was gone and her second is indisposed of...after all Maeve had been shirking her duties before she became infected, perhaps an enemy like the Reds of the Circle could have viewed her as a less than capable defender and sought to bring down her forces as with the White Council or simply 'show Mab up' with a display of power. Say to her yes in fact we CAN get to you, you are not untouchable.
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To answer, I don't know. The whole AT scenario doesn't make sense to me. I think of Harry showing up and getting Molly only seeing one Lea and Eldest Fetch. Now Harry is retreating and then an entire hunting force shows up? So it's okay for only infected Winter Fae to be there?
So, I am in the mood to ignore what Harry thinks and say how could that situation evolve. If I go back to Mab only being able to speak through Grimalkin, is that her being mad about Lea or Maeve? Maybe she doesn't know about Maeve until the attack on AT? I am just confused.
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I am just confused.
That's always been the case for me when it comes to PROVEN GUILTY. None of it made sense at the time, and it was my least favorite book. Only when I started thinking about the Time Travel Harry theory did it become interesting. But if we disregard that, and simply try and figure out what happened, even knowing everything we know now, it still doesn't make sense.
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Also semi-related WAG. Anyone want to bet Arctis Minor is now positioned on the NN side of the Carpenter household?
I stated something like it but I placed more emphasis on Molly seeking refuge at the Carpenter's home.
I like your idea that MOLLY places her residence on other side of Carpenter home. It probably would be some sort of contradiction in how it linked up but I could see Molly making a deal with Sarissa to somehow split the real estate.
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I'm looking for theories on Who attacked Arctis Tor , and specifically What was their Motivation?
I can't see anything but two scenarios, as I don't see an actual motivation for anyone else other than those two. But Eldest Gruff opinioned in another thread that there may be other factions with motivations to attack Arctis Tor. I'd like to see what others think about the who and why of the attack.
Specifically, please provide at least the name of the group involved, and an actual reason for their attack.
IN MAB vs. OUT MAB (or at least IN Winter vs. OUT Winter)
This was a plot with one Mab plotting to take down the other Mab.
They each have their chess pieces.
Reality favored Mab ultimately won this battle by virtue of the fact that Team Dresden entered Arctis Tor and accomplished what they did there.
I think Proven Guilty is a contest between these two powers.
Our Mab though lost one piece and that was Maeve.
Our Mab positioned her assets at the WALL. There Mab used this opportunity to seize the capital, and place her goons there. It was in essence a plot where Winter is at war with itself.
That is what I think happened.
I think there are lots of cases in which, OUT wants to kill Harry and at other times wants to keep Harry. They are targeting him when he has turned different states. Likewise, this occurs with other characters too.
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I like your idea that MOLLY places her residence on other side of Carpenter home. It probably would be some sort of contradiction in how it linked up but I could see Molly making a deal with Sarissa to somehow split the real estate.
Er what?
No idea what your talking about there.
To elaborate on my thinking though. It's as simple as: Arctis Minor is the WL's official residence. And Molly probably still thinks of eh Carpenter household as home so the natural associative place for Arctis Minor to be associated with would be the Carpenter Household.
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That depends on if Molly can control where the associations are. If it's more based on function and general emotions, I imagine AM to be somewhere like the Russian Consulate or something similar. The secondary government location of a cold nation.
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Er what?
No idea what your talking about there.
To elaborate on my thinking though. It's as simple as: Arctis Minor is the WL's official residence. And Molly probably still thinks of eh Carpenter household as home so the natural associative place for Arctis Minor to be associated with would be the Carpenter Household.
I'm not sure the angels would really approve. You know what kind of dark and nasty creatures probably reside in Arctis Minor? The angels on the Carpenter's roof are probably glaring into the Never-never constantly now.
And knowing that there's a connection between the two, would Molly risk any of the dark, cold, bitterness of Winter and Arctis Tor seeping through to her parents home? I know its supposed to go the other way, but that seems like it might be possible.
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I'm not sure the angels would really approve. You know what kind of dark and nasty creatures probably reside in Arctis Minor? The angels on the Carpenter's roof are probably glaring into the Never-never constantly now.
And knowing that there's a connection between the two, would Molly risk any of the dark, cold, bitterness of Winter and Arctis Tor seeping through to her parents home? I know its supposed to go the other way, but that seems like it might be possible.
That is why I think Molly makes a deal with Sarissa. To locate one of her bases in Summer territory which lines up with the Carpenter home.
Maybe, Sarissa gets a base inside or with Winter as a result. Would be nice to see more Mab and Sarissa socialization going on and defeat Nemesis goal of separating the two.
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That is why I think Molly makes a deal with Sarissa. To locate one of her bases in Summer territory which lines up with the Carpenter home.
Maybe, Sarissa gets a base inside or with Winter as a result. Would be nice to see more Mab and Sarissa socialization going on and defeat Nemesis goal of separating the two.
I don't think that was Nemesis' goal. I got the impression that was one of Maeve's personal goals, based on her feelings toward her mother and sister. I doubt Nemesis cares either way, other than taking a pawn away from Mab.
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So I sat here over the last 2 days and am getting ready for another re-read of PG. Going into that, I want propose my theory.
First to answer the questions from the OP: AT was attacked by forces aligned with the Outsiders for the purpose of driving a wedge between Harry and Mab.
My theory in a bit more detail.
I am of the view that there is a lot of Fog of War in the DF. I think that a lot less is known about characters as they enter the story by our main actors than we often assume. In this case, Molly is a target of opportunity. Her magic is noticed by some agent of the Outsiders (and I have trouble organizing them) and a trap is laid around Splattercon. The idea is to kill Molly at AT and have Lea be the only being there to talk about what happens. Lea will claim that Mab did the killing or that Mab ordered Lea to kill Molly.
From there we have a kidnapping plot around Splattercon which goes rather badly for the Outsider forces. Eventually they do succeed and take Molly. Now, in my model Mab is occupied and Maeve is the highest level Winter Court member around. However it is done, Maeve betrays the defenders of AT and the battle is lost. Who is in the attacking forces does not matter too much, but it is headed by infected characters - Maeve, Eldest Fetch and a Denarian (presumably Thorned Namschiel). The idea is to kill all the defenders so that there is nobody to be a witness to future events. Eldest Fetch is designated to kill Molly. This would be done to have Harry see a senior member of the Winter Court do the killing. That is why Molly is not killed off screen.
In typical Harry fashion, he overcomes the Scarecrow and wins the day. At the same point (in a bit of confusion), Lea's infection is revealed to Harry. Mab assists Team Harry's exit via time manipulation (slowing the pursuers) and winks at him to show Harry that she has seen what he has done and approves of it.
So, I want to point out here what is supposed to happen again from the Outsider side's perspective. Molly is killed, hurting Harry's relationship with Michael. On top of that, Molly's death would be placed squarely at the feet of the Winter Court. Just FYI, this might drive Harry to take up the Coin and take him out of Mab's WK list forever. Molly's death at AT would have definitely put an end to any potential Mab/Harry hookup. Imagine the following line:
Lea: "Dear Child, mine Queen has gone Mab. She has killed your friend's daughter and imprisoned me to keep me from warning you. Maeve can help you protect your friends. Seek her out and tell her we spoke."
Edit: My view is this is the place and time where Mab found out that Maeve was infected.
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Why drag Molly to AT to do that? Why not just kill Molly whenever, and blame Mab, somehow? Plus, the part about how Mab can't kill people who aren't associated with the fae, and as we saw in SK, palling around with someone who is doesn't cut it.
And why would it hurt Harry's relationship with Michael, since at that point, Harry was not Molly's mentor or anything other than family friend?
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I am of the view that there is a lot of Fog of War in the DF. I think that a lot less is known about characters as they enter the story by our main actors than we often assume. In this case, Molly is a target of opportunity. Her magic is noticed by some agent of the Outsiders (and I have trouble organizing them) and a trap is laid around Splattercon. The idea is to kill Molly at AT and have Lea be the only being there to talk about what happens. Lea will claim that Mab did the killing or that Mab ordered Lea to kill Molly.
From there we have a kidnapping plot around Splattercon which goes rather badly for the Outsider forces. Eventually they do succeed and take Molly. Now, in my model Mab is occupied and Maeve is the highest level Winter Court member around. However it is done, Maeve betrays the defenders of AT and the battle is lost. Who is in the attacking forces does not matter too much, but it is headed by infected characters - Maeve, Eldest Fetch and a Denarian (presumably Thorned Namschiel). The idea is to kill all the defenders so that there is nobody to be a witness to future events. Eldest Fetch is designated to kill Molly. This would be done to have Harry see a senior member of the Winter Court do the killing. That is why Molly is not killed off screen.
In typical Harry fashion, he overcomes the Scarecrow and wins the day. At the same point (in a bit of confusion), Lea's infection is revealed to Harry. Mab assists Team Harry's exit via time manipulation (slowing the pursuers) and winks at him to show Harry that she has seen what he has done and approves of it.
So, I want to point out here what is supposed to happen again from the Outsider side's perspective. Molly is killed, hurting Harry's relationship with Michael. On top of that, Molly's death would be placed squarely at the feet of the Winter Court. Just FYI, this might drive Harry to take up the Coin and take him out of Mab's WK list forever. Molly's death at AT would have definitely put an end to any potential Mab/Harry hookup. Imagine the following line:
Very good, it is rather IN and OUT of you.
So, I want to point out here what is supposed to happen again from the Outsider side's perspective. Molly is killed, hurting Harry's relationship with Michael. On top of that, Molly's death would be placed squarely at the feet of the Winter Court. Just FYI, this might drive Harry to take up the Coin and take him out of Mab's WK list forever. Molly's death at AT would have definitely put an end to any potential Mab/Harry hookup. Imagine the following line:
I think that is what they tried. It failed. (OUT side failed)
Now, Inside gets there turn at BAT.
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Peregrine,
No better place to frame Mab than AT. And remember, I have Eldest Fetch killing Molly under orders. So Mab does not do the killing. The best part is you have Lea right there to blame Mab. Now Harry may not like Lea but he thinks at that point that she can not lie. So, if Lea says "Mab orders Molly killed". You don't think Harry will believe that?
Harry fails to rescue Molly...you can't imagine that would make them less close? Charity for sure would rail against Harry forever. Michael would be pushed by her to move away from Harry.
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I doubt Nemesis cares either way, other than taking a pawn away from Mab.
I'd say the things you do while mostly infected is WHAT Nemesis mostly cares about.
Also, think of the series as mostly one way from past=>future. At a pivotal point, Harry gets to travel from future=>past. Why? Because the other side already did. They took future Harry on a path to hell from future=>past. So there is an imbalance because In hasn't played all their chips yet.
It isn't until Harry recognizes the significance of "there you are" within Uriel's hint that "no matter where you go, there you are." Does Inside's unspent chips come into play. I think MAC may be a future echo of this HARRY, or at least of SOMETHING, who hasn't yet spent the chips.
I'd say that Storm Front is nearly when a merging of Harry occurs on the return trip. Maybe it will go as far back as to when HWWB makes his play in Harry's past during the Harry and Justin encounter. Maybe more precisely back to when a choice creates an inconsistency when Harry first learned used magic.
Think of the emotional anguish it would cause for Harry that one of his past/future IN/OUT selves was the Shadowman, Victor Sells.
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@Raidem: Okay your officially crazy :o.
@Peregrine: Depends we don;t know precisely what Arctic Minor is for, we've never been there. I mean look at Arctis Tor, sure it's technically Winter Capitals, a major winter fortress, irrespective of who's in residence), and all the rest, but it's emphasized as Mab's personal home/fortress and place of power much more. I'm working on the Assumption that Arctis Minor is a similar thing for the WL. And really i'd say specifically because of all the angels camped out there that the Carpenter household is much more that to Molly in the real world than her appartment.
@Griffyn612: true but it's not like anything non-mortal can get across with the angel's there. I imagine they can seal the border against them. And having it sealed against mortals by proxy would probably please them. I also suspect that they can protect against seepage though i don't really see the placement as under Molly's control. Besides remember Mother Summers line from CD about winter not being so cold it freezes the heart entirely. Their cold but not heartless. And probably not stupid enough to piss Molly off by doing anything to harm her family. n a way Nic probably got off lightly at the end of SG. If he'd succeeded Molly's reaction would not have been pretty...
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From there we have a kidnapping plot around Splattercon which goes rather badly for the Outsider forces. Eventually they do succeed and take Molly. Now, in my model Mab is occupied and Maeve is the highest level Winter Court member around. However it is done, Maeve betrays the defenders of AT and the battle is lost. Who is in the attacking forces does not matter too much, but it is headed by infected characters - Maeve, Eldest Fetch and a Denarian (presumably Thorned Namschiel). The idea is to kill all the defenders so that there is nobody to be a witness to future events. Eldest Fetch is designated to kill Molly. This would be done to have Harry see a senior member of the Winter Court do the killing. That is why Molly is not killed off screen.
I like your interpretation of events, but you still run into the old WoJ (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,330.msg152191.html#msg152191) that Mab had Molly brought to AT. Would your theory still work if Maeve's plan was to kill Molly outright and Mab pulled her to AT to protect her?
Ask yourself why Mab had Molly brought in. What chain of events did that set in motion? What secondary effects came about because of it?
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We have confirmation in Small Favor that Nic had no clue that any of the Fallen (at least any in his court) were present at AT. IIRC, Harry pretty much calls out Nic about the attack when they had the convo at the Shea and Nic blinked in shock and hsi manner did seem to change has his brain was going overdrive at who among the fallen would do it...and why.
And we believe that at a point when Nicodemus was doing his very best to distract Harry by any means necessary, he'd be above appearing shocked ? Or not good at it, enough for Harry to see through him ?
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A single Denarian killing thousands of Arctis Tor defenders for Mab, only to let Harry in? Why not just order all of the defenders away from Arctis Tor as part of the guard-the-borders program that was running?
Because Harry would find that suspicious. We do have a WoJ that Mab would sacrifice her entire Court without an instant's hesitation if there was something to be gained from it.
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Because Harry would find that suspicious. We do have a WoJ that Mab would sacrifice her entire Court without an instant's hesitation if there was something to be gained from it.
I very much doubt that she would sacrifice her entire Court without getting at a minimum the Outsiders permanently banned from reality.
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I very much doubt that she would sacrifice her entire Court without getting at a minimum the Outsiders permanently banned from reality.
But sacrificing a thousand goblins to have Harry remove the Outsider-corrupted Scarecrow works for me. (Even with WoJ that unfortunately I was wrong about Mab doing that to get Harry to dump Summer fire in Winter's well and thus enable Summer to hit the Red Court.)
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I don't agree that she did kill everyone just as window dressing, but she could have done so with just those we saw at AT no problem. Keep in mind she has a massive force at the Gates, and can have her minions sex up whatever they need to replenish their numbers right quick.
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But sacrificing a thousand goblins to have Harry remove the Outsider-corrupted Scarecrow works for me. (Even with WoJ that unfortunately I was wrong about Mab doing that to get Harry to dump Summer fire in Winter's well and thus enable Summer to hit the Red Court.)
Yeah Mab's job is to make Mab's life easier, not Summers. But do we really think Eldest Fetch was corrupted? I mean it spoke like a Fae who was proud of its station, fed off the fear like other fetches do, Summer powered fire killed it AND I think iirc Harry SAW it with his Sight. Even then he would have noticed a swirling corruption even if he was totally ignorant of what it was back then, something would have been off about the fetch.
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My theory,
I do not think the fallen are that interested in Mab, their main concern is humanity and not the Sidhe. Nemesis had however a clear motive for the attack.
During dead beat Lea was already with Mab but Mab did not know yet about Maeves infection. Lea knew about Maeves infection but apparently Nemesis could keep Lea from telling Mab.
But then Mab started to cure Lea and Nemesis knew what was happening. To protect Maeves cover Lea had to be removed from Mab's custody as soon as possible.
Nemesis gathered everything she could and tried a surprise attack. That attack failed and Maeve tried again with Harry. Harry was supposed to rescue his godmother together with Molly but Lea had gained enough self control to prevent this. A nemesis controlled Lea would have been able to persuade Harry to take her with him.
But Lea stayed where she was and Mab winked.
I might add that Mab probably feigned a weak moment to see who would show up in that Nemesis attack. That is how she learned about the fallen involvement.
I think there is enough proove to show that the circle is just a nemesis thing and the black council is Harry's working name for Nemesis activities.
The rest is puzzling out who is working for Mab and who is working for Nemesis (and maybe who thinks he is working for Mab or someone else but is really working for Nemesis)
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Mab was deliberately trying to draw out the attack and to have Harry witness the aftermath.
If you bear this in mind you can fit everything into place. Mab is a mistress of manipulation, she is manipulating both Harry and the Denarians, almost certainly with a view towards identifying the infected Denarians and who is behind them.
She has certainly drawn out Namshiel and probably Lucifer as being Nemesis infected, she also confirmed Maeve's infection.
Mab NEEDS Harry and to have Harry operating from his free will. She cannot command Harry, she can only persuade him, or manipulate him into thinking he has arrived at a particular point through his own decisions. We have yet to see why Mab needs Harry, doubtless it is linked into him being a Starborn.
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Yeah Mab's job is to make Mab's life easier, not Summers.
The thing about that is, required to oppose each other or no, Winter and Summer are explicitly shown to work together in CD, and every Faerie-themed book does end up with the results of both of their actions benefiting both courts.
But do we really think Eldest Fetch was corrupted?
Yes. Because a) Harry's magic fades out before touching it, like with Lord Raith's explicitly Outsider-backed protection, rather than just being bulled through like Grum in SK or Ursiel in DM, and b) its nature is different from other fetches, it looks like the Scarecrow rather than a fetch disguised as a Scarecrow under Harry's glamour-penetrating ointment which is off enough for me.
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The way I understood PG is that Lea had been infected by Nemesis, but rather than total control it made her go against her nature and due it she rebelled against her queen in order to gain more power for herself. Lea's rebellion then resulted in a huge attack aimed at the very heart of winter. In the end Mab triumphed and captured Lea and found out Lea was strong enough to resist Nemesis with help, so she made a Leacicle Harry finds during PG.
Why attack on AT? Because Lea wanted to take out Mab. And because outsiders want Mab to be removed.
Who attacked AT? Outsiders, Faeries and Mortals under Lea's command and odd bunch of Black Hats crazy enough to attack Mab.
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The way I understood PG is that Lea had been infected by Nemesis, but rather than total control it made her go against her nature and due it she rebelled against her queen in order to gain more power for herself. Lea's rebellion then resulted in a huge attack aimed at the very heart of winter. In the end Mab triumphed and captured Lea and found out Lea was strong enough to resist Nemesis with help, so she made a Leacicle Harry finds during PG.
Why attack on AT? Because Lea wanted to take out Mab. And because outsiders want Mab to be removed.
Who attacked AT? Outsiders, Faeries and Mortals under Lea's command and odd bunch of Black Hats crazy enough to attack Mab.
Except that in Changes Lea specifically stated:
“ Shame , child, is for those who fail to live up to the ideal of what they believe they should be.” She waved her hand. “It was shame that drove me to my queen, to beseech her aid.”
So I think Lea was wrestling with the infection and tried to overcome it unaided but realised that was impossible and went to Mab for aid.
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So I think Lea was wrestling with the infection and tried to overcome it unaided but realised that was impossible and went to Mab for aid.
I suspect Lea made things she shouldn't have before Mab froze her in the garden. It's possible she aided assault on AT and realized it was a mistake, and turned herself in afterwards. Who knows.
Look at it like this, if only thing Lea being infected accomplished was infection spreading to Maeve it's almost lame. Lea is much more central figure to winter than Maeve. She is the one in control of forces at the outer gate 50% of the time.
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I suspect Lea made things she shouldn't have before Mab froze her in the garden. It's possible she aided assault on AT and realized it was a mistake, and turned herself in afterwards. Who knows.
Except I think nemesis attacked to stop Lea from telling Mab about Maeves infection. Protecting that cover is the only reason for attacking arctis tor that makes sense to me.
For some reason Nemesis control of Lea was weakened and Lea ran to Mab, maybe Nemesis can control a limited number of people directly and it got overextended.
Or Lea's sense of self was just very strong, much stronger than Cat Sith.
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Except I think nemesis attacked to stop Lea from telling Mab about Maeves infection. Protecting that cover is the only reason for attacking arctis tor that makes sense to me.
For some reason Nemesis control of Lea was weakened and Lea ran to Mab, maybe Nemesis can control a limited number of people directly and it got overextended.
Or Lea's sense of self was just very strong, much stronger than Cat Sith.
Somehow it seems odd that Nemesis would arrange a huge attack on AT just to prevent a single message from reaching Mab. How would that even work? Lea standing outside AT and seeing massive army between her and the gate is unable to deliver a the information to Mab? Somehow that doesn't sound reasonable at all.
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Except I think nemesis attacked to stop Lea from telling Mab about Maeves infection. Protecting that cover is the only reason for attacking arctis tor that makes sense to me.
For some reason Nemesis control of Lea was weakened and Lea ran to Mab, maybe Nemesis can control a limited number of people directly and it got overextended.
Or Lea's sense of self was just very strong, much stronger than Cat Sith.
I don't think so, I think Mab figured it out once she figured out that the knife was infected. She treated Lea, and I believe treated herself as well, Maeve she couldn't do much about until she got a new Winter Knight.
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I don't think so, I think Mab figured it out once she figured out that the knife was infected. She treated Lea, and I believe treated herself as well, Maeve she couldn't do much about until she got a new Winter Knight.
I think she could, just didn't want to. Maeve was her daughter after all.
Edit: Now that I think about it Lea infecting Maeve and then regretting it should fit the bill too. Then again I think it would fit quite nicely if Lea was atleat in part responsible for what happened @ AT. And while Maeve could have been the one planning the attack on AT, I find it extremely unlikely Maeve wouldn't have taunted Mab about it during the confortation at the end of CD.
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Or Lea's sense of self was just very strong, much stronger than Cat Sith.
I don't know, Cat Sith was very defined as a personality. The Sith infection is the oddest we've seen, to be honest.
Anywho, there's got to be more to Lea's resistance than just being more aware. Maybe Sith would have realized it himself given time, but Harry's blunt reveal caused Nemesis to take over.
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Somehow it seems odd that Nemesis would arrange a huge attack on AT just to prevent a single message from reaching Mab.
"Maeve is infected" extremely valuable information.
How would that even work? Lea standing outside AT and seeing massive army between her and the gate is unable to deliver a the information to Mab?
Lea inside and Nemesis trying to get her out before she loses control over Lea.
Somehow that doesn't sound reasonable at all.
Because Lea was infected.
Nemesis had a certain control over Lea and could keep her from sharing information with Mab but that only worked until Mab cured Lea. Because Nemesis was in Lea she knew what was going on.
It was when Nemesis control of Lea began to slip that she became more desperate. A cured Lea would tell Mab about Maeve and Maeves cover was valuable. That was when Nemesis organised the attack on Arctis Tor to get Lea back.
Lea was in Arctis Tor when Nemesis attacked and Mab was busy curing her.
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I like your interpretation of events, but you still run into the old WoJ that Mab had Molly brought to AT. Would your theory still work if Maeve's plan was to kill Molly outright and Mab pulled her to AT to protect her?
knnn,
Man that is a tough one. Because no I can not reconcile that in my mind. But you have opened my eyes to something I think I missed. The Fetches crossed the Carpenter's Threshold to take away Molly. Which means that they could not mean her harm or were invited. The only way I get around that is the inadvertent summoning allowing that to happen. If I make an assumption that it is just they meant no harm, then I can get there. Until Daniel gets hurt. Which I might be able to explain as a violation of guest rights by Daniel attacking them. Still it is REALLY hard to get to.
So, I just re-listened to the part where Bob and Harry are talking about defending the Hotel. If we make the same assumption set that they made, then I still don't see Molly as the summoner. Not that she did not have the power, but I don't see her having the knowledge. This leads to the possibility is that Molly was tagged by Mab as the beacon AND sent the Fetches.
The thing I don't like about this possibility is Old Man Pell. Hurting him seems completely out of character with the rest of the actions. But if I say it is required, then the Fetches expected to take Molly at Splattercon!!! (sorry I forgot the exclamation points last post). I think I am stuck at the moment until I listen to more.
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I don't know, Cat Sith was very defined as a personality. The Sith infection is the oddest we've seen, to be honest.
Anywho, there's got to be more to Lea's resistance than just being more aware. Maybe Sith would have realized it himself given time, but Harry's blunt reveal caused Nemesis to take over.
Power coupled with will. I mean that's the only bit that really makes sense. Harry for example is an incredibly antagonistic personality towards his 'enemies' but that alone would not be enough if he didn't have say, Soulfire or his starborn-ness to help fend off a possible Nemsis infection.
Lea is second only to Mab, (and I guess third overall but Mother Winter isn't really active in that sense), in overall strength AND has a strong personality that is all her own. Maeve WANTED the freedom that being infected provided her in her own mind so she was unwilling to fight it, in her mind it gave her exactly what she wanted. Cat Sith is an awfully prideful creature, even if he wasn't force taken almost right away he might not have gone to Mab like Lea did because it would be a stain on his reputation, something he might want to fight off himself. So he is both not strong enough, and not willful enough. My two cents anyway.
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The thing about that is, required to oppose each other or no, Winter and Summer are explicitly shown to work together in CD, and every Faerie-themed book does end up with the results of both of their actions benefiting both courts.
If you are referring to Maeve and Lily as I assume you are, that is a very abnormal circumstance. Maeve is infected and Lily is lonely/impressionable and overall too willing to 'do good' for her own good. Summer and Winter are diametrically opposed at all other times, its why every time Mab chose Harry as representative or emissary before he became the Knight, Summer was there to oppose him in some way.
I would argue Summer benefitted one time and one time only, when Harry unknowingly blew up the interior of Arctis Tor with summer fire...something that Mab seemed not all that concerned with anyway...and that allowed Summer forces to come to the Council's aid. Every other time Summer gets shafted, their Lady dies TWICE, their Knight once and the new one gets his ass handed to him. The Gruffs are defeated and felled at every turn, the exception being Eldest who gets sent to be an errand boy...amusing thou he found it. Titania is in a perpetual state of depression now and no longer cares if the world goes down. So i'm not certain where the notion that Summer has come out positively in the end is coming from.
Yes. Because a) Harry's magic fades out before touching it, like with Lord Raith's explicitly Outsider-backed protection, rather than just being bulled through like Grum in SK or Ursiel in DM, and b) its nature is different from other fetches, it looks like the Scarecrow rather than a fetch disguised as a Scarecrow under Harry's glamour-penetrating ointment which is off enough for me.
Raith's protection isn't explicitly stated to be Outsider related, its just assumed at this point and yeah probably likely considering he had the three Strega's calling up HHWB. But for Scarecrow, the reason his nature is different is because he holds the mantle of Eldest, just like Cat Sith, the oldest and most powerful of its kind. Just like the Red King is far stronger and has more capabilities that pretty much all of his progeny. To me Eldest Fetch is just that, and his nature is a bit different thanks to his mantle.
Consider there are plenty of beings that can snuff or shut Harry down with little more than a thought. Ferrovax does so in GP, Odin in Changes, Mother Winter in CD temporarily...these are the eldest, strongest beings of their respective factions. If Eldest Fetch has been around as long as it claimed, AND is a personal servitor to Mab, surely it could possess much more refined magic that doesn't require it to just brute thru it, Ursiel and Grum are tanks but no one is crediting them with any more than that. Scarecrow rubs his status right in Harry's face with contempt, it knows its power is superior in its own mind anyway, and does not need to bulldoze thru it.
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Man that is a tough one. Because no I can not reconcile that in my mind. But you have opened my eyes to something I think I missed. The Fetches crossed the Carpenter's Threshold to take away Molly. Which means that they could not mean her harm or were invited.
Maybe.
There's another WoJ (don't have the time to give you exact quote), that Faeries with enough power *can* punch through a threshold with evil intent, and the fetches are sited as a specific example. Take a look also at the Toad Demon from StF who very blatantly crosses Harry's threshold.
As an aside, have you read Elegast's post on this http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html? It takes something I wrote years ago and works Nemesis into it. I'm not saying it's the end-all theory, but it really seems to pull everything together. You may find it useful to steal a few ideas from there.
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Thanks knnn! More thinking to do on my part.
But I do want to point out something about that WoJ. It is not as absolute as we think. If you look at the entire post by Jim, he is actually posting a hypothetical about how we should think about such mysteries. Clearly, this is a case where this in an intentional event. All I can say is that just like Elegant's post, that the WoJ is absolute that Mab is behind the kidnapping. But I will definitely need to think through a viable Mab based alternative.
Secondly, the whole...who cast the ward at Splattercon!!! adds to this.
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As an aside, have you read Elegast's post on this http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html? It takes something I wrote years ago and works Nemesis into it. I'm not saying it's the end-all theory, but it really seems to pull everything together. You may find it useful to steal a few ideas from there.
Ah, the old TTH theory, how I miss thee. You may have only gotten 25%, but gosh darn it, that's 25% more than MDwaKotC ever got.
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One thing to consider. Mab may have lost the battle. She may have been forced to agree to something. Grant someone a favor. As a Fae, she cannot back out of it. She may betray Dresden at some point because of this.
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One thing to consider. Mab may have lost the battle. She may have been forced to agree to something. Grant someone a favor. As a Fae, she cannot back out of it. She may betray Dresden at some point because of this.
Meh... there's a WoJ that implies that Mab won. It basically said, "after it was all over, she was still there". It was vague enough to allow for multiple interpretations, but his tone seemed to imply that it was a victorious stand rather than a compromised end to hostilities.
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Meh... there's a WoJ that implies that Mab won. It basically said, "after it was all over, she was still there". It was vague enough to allow for multiple interpretations, but his tone seemed to imply that it was a victorious stand rather than a compromised end to hostilities.
I didn't mean it was a compromise. I meant the attack all along wasn't meant to be a victory for the bad guys. The intent was to force Mab into a type of deal for later down the road, not to defeat her.
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I didn't mean it was a compromise. I meant the attack all along wasn't meant to be a victory for the bad guys. The intent was to force Mab into a type of deal for later down the road, not to defeat her.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what type of deal you're referring to.
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I didn't mean it was a compromise. I meant the attack all along wasn't meant to be a victory for the bad guys. The intent was to force Mab into a type of deal.
If the enemy had enough power to force her into a deal then why not just eliminate her entirely? I mean Mab is until Harry harnesses his 'starborn-ness' THE main force keeping the Outsider's at bay and thwarting the plans of the enemies in this world. So if that force was powerful enough to compel her to make a deal, then that was immensely short-sighted on their part when they could have just eliminated or weakened her.
And considering there are only a handful of beings that could do that, it seems unlikely.
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If the enemy had enough power to force her into a deal then why not just eliminate her entirely? I mean Mab is until Harry harnesses his 'starborn-ness' THE main force keeping the Outsider's at bay and thwarting the plans of the enemies in this world. So if that force was powerful enough to compel her to make a deal, then that was immensely short-sighted on their part when they could have just eliminated or weakened her.
And considering there are only a handful of beings that could do that, it seems unlikely.
There is a big difference attacking Arctis Tor, and taking on hundreds of millions of Fae many of which are watching the Outer Gates... The ones attacking may have needed her to do something that she could do, but they couldn't. Just because someone wanted something from her doesn't mean they wanted her to be defeated, and allowing the Outsiders to break through.
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Alternatively they could have wanted her to not do something. Not even Mab can be everywhere after all.
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If you are referring to Maeve and Lily as I assume you are, that is a very abnormal circumstance. Maeve is infected and Lily is lonely/impressionable and overall too willing to 'do good' for her own good. Summer and Winter are diametrically opposed at all other times, its why every time Mab chose Harry as representative or emissary before he became the Knight, Summer was there to oppose him in some way.
In SK, the net result overall is to remove a dangerously errant Summer Lady and restore the balance.
In SmF, the net result is to keep the Archive from falling to the Denarians, which benefits both courts. And Mab makes it clear to Harry that Summer's forces opposing him are not there to stop him but to compel him to be Winter's Emissary for this job when she can't (by her own given word in SK) do so herself.
Every other time Summer gets shafted, their Lady dies TWICE, their Knight once and the new one gets his ass handed to him.
Their Knight is killed by their own rogue Lady. And killing rogue ladies is not a loss to the Court they belong to, that I can see; they get replaced.
The Gruffs are defeated and felled at every turn, the exception being Eldest who gets sent to be an errand boy...amusing thou he found it.
None of the gruffs up until Eldest are particularly plausible challenges for Harry, and Eldest basically slowly gives Harry hints until Harry figures out how to get out of the situation; this is not the action of an Eldest-level entity that wants Harry dead and is not an idiot.
Raith's protection isn't explicitly stated to be Outsider related, its just assumed at this point
Harry cites it as specifically feeling like the mordite he dealt with in DM.
But for Scarecrow, the reason his nature is different is because he holds the mantle of Eldest, just like Cat Sith, the oldest and most powerful of its kind.
Harry offers that as one possible theory alongside external corruption, and is not at all sure of it.
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But for Scarecrow, the reason his nature is different is because he holds the mantle of Eldest, just like Cat Sith, the oldest and most powerful of its kind.
Harry offers that as one possible theory alongside external corruption, and is not at all sure of it.
I found one example of Harry's magic being effective until it wasn't on the same entity.
In DM, on encounter with Ursiel his magic was VERY effective.
Then, during the soulgaze, Ursiel says "GET OUT"
After that, Harry's magic doesn't work against him.
I think there is a change of state for Harry and that it is why his magic sometimes is very effective and other times not.
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In SK, the net result overall is to remove a dangerously errant Summer Lady and restore the balance.
In SmF, the net result is to keep the Archive from falling to the Denarians, which benefits both courts. And Mab makes it clear to Harry that Summer's forces opposing him are not there to stop him but to compel him to be Winter's Emissary for this job when she can't (by her own given word in SK) do so herself.
Both of those results benefit the world in general so yes if you wish to attribute it to Summer and Winter both coming out equally I suppose technically you are correct. But originally you made it sound as if Mab's actions end up benefitting both Courts almost by design, I very much disagree with that notion.
Their Knight is killed by their own rogue Lady. And killing rogue ladies is not a loss to the Court they belong to, that I can see; they get replaced.
It really doesn't matter HOW they get killed, they still died. Aurora is replaced by a totally inexperienced and unprepared Lily, who just a few short years later herself is led to her own downfall. And she was not Maeve, Aurora still fulfilled her role for all those centuries. Ronald Reul who would have been a match for just about any Winter Knight over that time period is replaced by another novice who takes several years to come into his own confidence and power, who lost pretty much all his friends and NOW has lost his lady and the woman he was probably in love with. Now they have another Lady who never wanted that kind of power, even if she was born to it and I happen to actually be of the mindset Sarissa will be good for both Summer and Titania in the long run...still doesn't change the fact that its going to be a rough transition for her.
But no matter that these roles get filled, it cannot be good for the stability of a powerful faction to keep rotating out all their experience from the most important positions every decade or so when an enemy like Nemesis is lurking. And clearly Aurora's death, while 'necessary', pretty much killed Titania's will. Harry goes to her and asks for help when he doesn't know whether to believe Mab or Maeve and she basically shrugs him off saying she no longer cares if the world dies, HER world died in her mind. What if Mab does for some reason get infected, who will protect humanity if not Titania when that's her whole purpose?
So yes, the Summer Court gets shafted a whole helluva lot and to me whatever slight benefits they may have gained are far outweighed by what they've lost in the past say 15 years...even more obvious when you see how much Winter has gained.
None of the gruffs up until Eldest are particularly plausible challenges for Harry, and Eldest basically slowly gives Harry hints until Harry figures out how to get out of the situation; this is not the action of an Eldest-level entity that wants Harry dead and is not an idiot.
Tiny gruff was more than a match for Harry but the Hobs helped get him out of that, the other hitters could have gotten him too if Thomas hadn't come along so lets not discount that they weren't a match for Harry, he was pretty well on the ropes.
Harry cites it as specifically feeling like the mordite he dealt with in DM.
Like I said, i'm fine with the belief that Raith is protected by Outsiders...but Harry's FEELING is not an explicit notion that it can only be Outsiders like you made it out to be.
Harry offers that as one possible theory alongside external corruption, and is not at all sure of it.
Not being sure doesn't preclude the option, just means there's still some information about it that needs to be resolved.
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There is a big difference attacking Arctis Tor, and taking on hundreds of millions of Fae many of which are watching the Outer Gates... The ones attacking may have needed her to do something that she could do, but they couldn't. Just because someone wanted something from her doesn't mean they wanted her to be defeated, and allowing the Outsiders to break through.
Standing troop count of 50,000 is still quite a lot to take on and seeing as how the majority of the Outsider's forces would ALSO be at the Gates, i'm not certain how that helps your case.
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Lea is second only to Mab, (and I guess third overall but Mother Winter isn't really active in that sense), in overall strength AND has a strong personality that is all her own. Maeve WANTED the freedom that being infected provided her in her own mind so she was unwilling to fight it, in her mind it gave her exactly what she wanted. Cat Sith is an awfully prideful creature, even if he wasn't force taken almost right away he might not have gone to Mab like Lea did because it would be a stain on his reputation, something he might want to fight off himself. So he is both not strong enough, and not willful enough. My two cents anyway.
Lea may be second to Mab politically but i'm not convinced she is magically. A quick look at the wiki shows that, (depending on how exactly you interpret the CD text and weather the ramps around the pyramid moved to the ball court for the duel or not), anywhere from a couple to around a dozen uses of Lilly's CD fire wall attack would have cleaned out pretty much the entire red court at CI, (and it's not like Lilly showed any real drained effect from throwing that wall around or is especially well trained). Sure the Red king and the Lords of the Outer night if prepared for an attack, (unlike Lea's little gambit the cheeky madam), would be a real pain to put down. But all that chaff. Nah not even a challenge Lea's powerful magically, but not that powerful.
The other thing with the Lea, (and Eldest Gruff), situation politically speaking is we've only met them post SNAFU within their respective courts with one or more of their queens, so it's not clear if their power comes from them taking up the slack, or if they'd hold that much power normally. For that matter given the different duties to different queens thing we've head for the knight and "area's of responsibility" WoJ's it's not even clear how absolute the power structure is. It's quite possible that the ladies can give the queen's lieutenants orders under certain specific circumstances but are subject to their orders under other. Which would be just the kind of twisted, messed up, mind screwing situation the fae adore.
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Lea may be second to Mab politically but i'm not convinced she is magically. A quick look at the wiki shows that, (depending on how exactly you interpret the CD text and weather the ramps around the pyramid moved to the ball court for the duel or not), anywhere from a couple to around a dozen uses of Lilly's CD fire wall attack would have cleaned out pretty much the entire red court at CI, (and it's not like Lilly showed any real drained effect from throwing that wall around or is especially well trained). Sure the Red king and the Lords of the Outer night if prepared for an attack, (unlike Lea's little gambit the cheeky madam), would be a real pain to put down. But all that chaff. Nah not even a challenge Lea's powerful magically, but not that powerful.
The other thing with the Lea, (and Eldest Gruff), situation politically speaking is we've only met them post SNAFU within their respective courts with one or more of their queens, so it's not clear if their power comes from them taking up the slack, or if they'd hold that much power normally. For that matter given the different duties to different queens thing we've head for the knight and "area's of responsibility" WoJ's it's not even clear how absolute the power structure is. It's quite possible that the ladies can give the queen's lieutenants orders under certain specific circumstances but are subject to their orders under other. Which would be just the kind of twisted, messed up, mind screwing situation the fae adore.
I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote. And yes I agree Lily's attacks were very strong but she was also highly unstable/emotional at that point. I submit that Lea who was told to 'indulge herself' was more likely focused on inflicting 'pain' rather than really cutting loose at CI and she had to prepare the way for the Grey Council for the first part of the battle...she also had to contend with several of the Lords of Outer Night on her own which I think shows she is plenty powerful it just didn't make sense for her to go nuclear during that particular battle.
As for power structure if I had to guess Lea and Eldest seem to hold these roles of handmaiden and advisor, roles they have had for a long long time...in that while technically the Lady is next in line to become Queen, Lea for example is answerable only to Mab. Whether that means she controls more political power is debatable but I would guess that since when Mab steps out she is the one who fills in and NOT Maeve even before she became infected, I would think she has some pretty strong cache. Eldest seems more of a check on Lea power wise than politically...but hey maybe Eldest, who seems to be the first choice for ambassador of the Court, has similar political pop and it just has not been shown.
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I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote.
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I've got to re-read either Dead Beat or one of the other slightly earlier books because I know Mab herself said Lea was second only to her in power in the Court I just can't remember the exact book or quote. And yes I agree Lily's attacks were very strong but she was also highly unstable/emotional at that point. I submit that Lea who was told to 'indulge herself' was more likely focused on inflicting 'pain' rather than really cutting loose at CI and she had to prepare the way for the Grey Council for the first part of the battle...she also had to contend with several of the Lords of Outer Night on her own which I think shows she is plenty powerful it just didn't make sense for her to go nuclear during that particular battle.
Your not wrong on that first sentence but it never specifies magical power. Political power, (which Lea certainly has as she IS Mab's current second in command per WoJ), would count too.
Also Lea was told to hurt yes. But she was also, (paraphrasing here as i can't remember exact quote), to "help as much as your power allows". Holding back really wouldn't qualify. And based on what we saw with Adrienne the fact that Lea took out a bunch of the Lords of the Outer Night isn't very impressive. Sure they're powerful, but Ramp's seem to work under the same "can't defend against what you don;t see coming" shtick human wizards have. They're not like some Fae who seem to have really solid defenses even if they don;t see it coming.
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Your not wrong on that first sentence but it never specifies magical power. Political power, (which Lea certainly has as she IS Mab's current second in command per WoJ), would count too.
Also Lea was told to hurt yes. But she was also, (paraphrasing here as i can't remember exact quote), to "help as much as your power allows". Holding back really wouldn't qualify. And based on what we saw with Adrienne the fact that Lea took out a bunch of the Lords of the Outer Night isn't very impressive. Sure they're powerful, but Ramp's seem to work under the same "can't defend against what you don;t see coming" shtick human wizards have. They're not like some Fae who seem to have really solid defenses even if they don;t see it coming.
I suppose not, thou I always interpreted it as magical...saying someone's power is second only to your own GENERALLY means magical I would think, iirc that part of the conversation did skew towards what Lea knew or could do in comparison to Mab so that's why I've always taken it as magical.
And Lea did help, she was told to indulge herself. But by the same token, wildly throwing around destructive magic when there were other preparations to make like preparing the way for the Grey Council or resisting the will of the Lords it would be a waste of her time and power to just sling around Lily sized firebolts at every foot soldier who crossed her, the whole point is that Lily was having a breakdown and acting unrestrained. Lea really had no cause or reason to do the same, a battle that large is chaotic enough and her task to 'help Harry' makes it not very conducive to letting loose fully.
They, (Lords), may not has 'seemed' like all that much but I feel that's probably more likely due to the fact that they really were not essential to the main point of the battle and so their power wasn't much expanded on. BUT if you take into consideration Odin's analysis that each of them were nearly as powerful as he especially since they were at the center of their power, it remains highly impressive for Lea to have taken on any of them.
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Erm. I don;t get where your getting the idea that A) lea did much of anything at CI, (she didn't), or that B) such display's of power wouldn't have been useful, (they'd have ended the battle before it began).
Lea's contributions to the whole venture where as follows:
The transformation spell that got them there faster.
The Magical attire for Harry e.t.c.
The pre-prepared transport gem that let her carry Eb and co in unnoticed.
Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night.
Everything else was Harry and allies, and swords.
Conversely drop a lady in there and have her swing a Fire/ice wall like the one Lilly threw in CD right as the RC start attacking all out and one entire side of the stadium gets taken out, a handful of seconds later the other side joins them. Suddenly the handful that made it to the floor aside the only ramps in there are the Red King and the Lords of the Outer Knight. Lets not even get into how much more quickly it could have cleared the way to the pyramid. And that's assuming none of that force was made up of ramps from the ball court.
I also think you totally missed my point about how based on Adrienne Ramps are like Human's. Catch them unprepared and their squishy. Hitting a half a dozen Lords of the Outer Night and knocking them out when their defending from you is major. Doing it when they're totally unprepared and well, Ramirez with Molly veiling could have achieved the same effect.
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Erm. I don;t get where your getting the idea that A) lea did much of anything at CI, (she didn't), or that B) such display's of power wouldn't have been useful, (they'd have ended the battle before it began).
Lea's contributions to the whole venture where as follows:
The transformation spell that got them there faster.
The Magical attire for Harry e.t.c.
The pre-prepared transport gem that let her carry Eb and co in unnoticed.
Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night.
Everything else was Harry and allies, and swords.
Conversely drop a lady in there and have her swing a Fire/ice wall like the one Lilly threw in CD right as the RC start attacking all out and one entire side of the stadium gets taken out, a handful of seconds later the other side joins them. Suddenly the handful that made it to the floor aside the only ramps in there are the Red King and the Lords of the Outer Knight. Lets not even get into how much more quickly it could have cleared the way to the pyramid. And that's assuming none of that force was made up of ramps from the ball court.
I also think you totally missed my point about how based on Adrienne Ramps are like Human's. Catch them unprepared and their squishy. Hitting a half a dozen Lords of the Outer Night and knocking them out when their defending from you is major. Doing it when they're totally unprepared and well, Ramirez with Molly veiling could have achieved the same effect.
And I don't much see why in your mind dropping a Lady in there is conducive to anything. So great they throw around a ton of power and pyramids go down. Eb and Harry could have done that too, hell so could Odin...but clearly that would have just made the battle chaos worse and not in an effective way like Molly's one woman rave technique. If it was a simple matter of just brute force being necessary then they would have done it. As it stands they still had to rescue Maggie so a Lady blowing up everything in sight does nothing.
You are also supposing Lea did nothing BECAUSE of the lack of I guess firepower in your mind which is he only thing that constitutes a contribution. I think also because you don't view the Lords of the Outer Night as anything all that tough even though they clearly were...hell if Lea's ONLY contribution was 'Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night' that would have been of great help considering how strong they are...but she also did all those other things.
So fine the ramps are squishy...they had almost the entire army there! You mean to tell me that one Lady just makes them all insignificant? I think in the same way you see me overestimating Lea I think you are doing much the same with Lily or the ladies in general.
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So back to the primary topic of this thread, I just finished my re-read of PG. Beyond the standard mysteries, I think I need to understand the Scarecrow a lot more. He has 3 roles in the book:
1 - The first mention is when he attacks Harry et al after Harry has freed himself from Madrigal Raith.
2 - The second mention is the recount by Daniel in the attack on the Carpenter House (must have happened before the attack on Harry - but Harry is occupied at the time).
3 - The third mention is when he is found at the top of Arctus Tor and he battles with Harry/Charity.
Okay so here is the problem. If we assume Mab sends the kidnapping fetches, then why attack Harry? It looks from the outside that the primary purpose of the kidnapping is to draw Harry to Arctus Tor. But if so, why not give Harry a clear path to AT? Delaying tactic? If we assume that Mab does not send the kidnapping fetches, then who do the fetches that attack Harry et al in AT belong to? Why would they not go after one of Mab's enemies? On top of that the Scarecrow declares itself loyal to Mab - not that this is definitive. I think this is the crucible of the answer to what happened at AT.
One other problem with the attack on Harry. Madrigal Raith says he was booked at Splattercon!!! for a year prior to the actual convention. Harry concludes that Glau is attacked first to shut him up. That would make Glau the reason that Madrigal gets booked at Splattercon!!! So, why would Mab want Glau dead? Mab seems to put many obstacles in the way of recovering Molly, but seems approving of his actual recovery.
So, when I come up with a resolution for all this...I will post again.
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And I don't much see why in your mind dropping a Lady in there is conducive to anything. So great they throw around a ton of power and pyramids go down. Eb and Harry could have done that too, hell so could Odin...but clearly that would have just made the battle chaos worse and not in an effective way like Molly's one woman rave technique. If it was a simple matter of just brute force being necessary then they would have done it. As it stands they still had to rescue Maggie so a Lady blowing up everything in sight does nothing.
You are also supposing Lea did nothing BECAUSE of the lack of I guess firepower in your mind which is he only thing that constitutes a contribution. I think also because you don't view the Lords of the Outer Night as anything all that tough even though they clearly were...hell if Lea's ONLY contribution was 'Launching a surprise attack on the Lords of the Outer Night' that would have been of great help considering how strong they are...but she also did all those other things.
So fine the ramps are squishy...they had almost the entire army there! You mean to tell me that one Lady just makes them all insignificant? I think in the same way you see me overestimating Lea I think you are doing much the same with Lily or the ladies in general.
Several points to address.
1. No Harry and Eb cant do that, we've certainly seen Harry hit his limit well before the point of the fire wall Lilly threw out and whilst we don't have quite as clear a demonstration for Eb, but given we've never seen or heard of him doing anything like that without opportunity to pull a ritual i'm going to go with no he can't either. The closest we've seen was Harry tapping the Ley line earlier
They could certainly do some very big spells i'm sure that's true, but the really big stuff seriously drains them, they can't do a lot of it or at that kind of scale, not without prep time, Lily didn't even feel throwing her big spell around. And that wall of fire was hundreds of feet long and hot enough that Harry had serous issues blocking it even with winter backup. I can give the top handful of Ramps 1 step below the LotON, (like Adrienne) an "okay lets say they survive it due to foci benefits" pass since that seems to be "Harry Tier". But the rest are dead, deader, and even deader. Based on what it did to Fitz sword they won't even leave corpses.
2. Odin is a fairer point to raise, but the very fact that we never see him throwing around really big magical stuff, (the biggest thing he's done to date is the time trick in CD, and we don't really know how hard that is from a power PoV, it may well), makes it hard to judge his power. But given the lack of fireworks at CI i'm going with no he can't.
3. I understand the point about nuking not being useful at points in the battle. But that's why i picked the two examples i did. Immediately after Lea throws down the gem most of the ramps are still on the stands racing to get down, if she had that kind of power she could cut loose kill several percent of the total RC forces at the battle and have no friendly fire worries. And it's a level of blasting we know a lady can do. The second, when they're making their way to the pyramid base again includes a situation with no friendly fire potential, and againn included large numbers of Ramps tightly packed. Perfect area spell bait for someone who can hit an area that huge.
4. You still don't seem to get my point about the LotON. Hit the Merlin in the back with a very low power fireball when he doesn't know your going to attack him and he dies. Period. Doesn't matter that he's probably the most powerful mortal wizard alive, he's just as dead. Adrienne shows the same kind of "can't defend against what she doesn't see coming" problem in her duel with Harry. I'm sure a LotON is tougher even than a normal ramp physically. But their still going to go down if you hit them hard enough and anyone warden level or above can throw out spells many orders of magnitude above that required to kill a normal Ramp, so a group of LotOK? Not a challenge. IF you can catch the unawares as Lea did so they don't get to use all that awesome magical might to do anything about you smacking them down.
5. No i'm not judging Lea on her inability to nuke. I'm judging her on her inability to decisively effect the outcome of the battle once it's in progress through direct applied magic. Nuking is certainly the simplest and easiest method of doing that. But anything that akllows you to take large numbers of enemies out of the fight with very little effort will do.
Drop a Lady in lea's place and whilst saving Maggie is still not certain, (the battle will take time no mater what and thee are so many factors in play it's hard to predict specifics), the actual outcome of the battle, (the complete destruction of the RC), would have been assured. Don't get me wrong without the grey Council backing her up a Lady would have a serious time against the combined might of the 12 LotON and if you throw in the Red King i wouldn't want any Lady to try it without a bag full of Names. But with the mortal and birdman backup, no i don't think the RC could have survived the battle.
Lea never even comes close to demonstrating the kind of battle swinging power necessary to guarantee win that fight without using the ritual. A Lady given what we see could just by following harry around wipe out a goodly percentage of the RC's strength and given sufficient extra time, (how much depending on how much friendly fire she has to worry about), clean house with the whole lot of them.
That said i still ate Lea at a minimum equivalent to a LotON , i just don't think she compares with the Ladies.
6. I wouldn't say a Lady makes it insignificant, but depending on weather the ones in the stadium where there when harry reached the pyramid or came from the pyramid wiping them out wold take out anything from several percent, to potentially in excess of 10% of the total strength there. Throw in another swing whilst running to the pyramid afterwards and it's say anywhere from 10-20% of the total forces in 3 swings is doable. anything more than that comes down to having a sufficiently clear set of targets.
Based on the description of the setup at the pyramid when they first get there and the dimensions of the pyramid 4 swings would have wiped out >80% of the court in one go, (anywhere from 10,000-40,000 ramps depending on how you interpret some of Harry's descriptive text off the top of my head). Now i'm not suggesting that would have been the ideal thing to do. But it gives you an idea of what a Lady could do if they gave her a nice target, (and as noted we have a minimum 3 instances of such nice targets in the battle).
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Okay here we go...my theory of why Mab kidnaps Molly leading to who attacks Arctis Tor and why...
Let's start with the notion of why kidnap Molly if it is Mab. Mab has at least 3 purposes:
- Show Lloyd Slate to Harry to try to entice him to take up the Winter Mantle as a Mercy
- Show Lea to get him to introduce him to Nemesis obliquely
- And most importantly get Nemesis to reveal traitors within the Winter Court (This is the primary Mission)
So, Molly is kidnapped to bring Harry to Arctis Tor to show him these things. It all goes back to the attacks at Splattercon!!! These attacks have to look natural as part of the workings of Mab. She does not know who to trust so tells nobody about her plan. That is why the attacks at Splattercon!!! are so violent. Mab knows that this will draw Harry. The fact that Molly involves Harry first is a bonus, not part of the plan. Magical beings killing people in Chicago means Harry is showing up. This is the inducement to attach Harry to this program. Now, you need to recall that according to our timelines there are about 4 years between SK and PG. That means there is plenty of time to keep tabs on Harry and learn about Molly's magic. I think this plan is long in coming because Madrigal Raith was part of Splattercon!!!'s agenda for about 1 year. This timeline and the knowledge of Molly's Magic gives Mab time to prepare.
Molly is taken and brought to Arctis Tor. Now, remember right after that Harry is attacked by the Scarecrow. The attack occurs AFTER Harry gets out of Splattercon!!! having beaten the one Fetch that stayed at the event. The other Fetches (including the Scarecrow) are part of the kidnapping. But then the Scarecrow attacks Harry. The reason for this is to keep Harry out of events as they progress and reveals the Scarecrow as an agent of Nemesis potentially unwittingly (will come to this at the end).
Once Harry is free, the forces of Nemesis realize that Harry is going to get to AT to rescue Molly. So, they attack AT with a LOT. In PG, it says that the Winter Defenders were killed by Fire done with such power that Harry could not have done it. So maybe Namschiel, but maybe more - a lot more. Mab lets them win through, and I propose this as a test to Harry. The bulk of the Nemesis backing force goes away (probably because they believe they are no longer needed here - maybe help the Red Court?). Given the small size of Harry's force, nobody sees the need for a big group to kill him.
Harry wins through killing the Scarecrow which scatters the rest of the Fetches (who probably get commanded to run away by Mab once the Scarecrow is dead).
A whole LOT of things come from this that are less obvious: Harry has his first talk with Eb about the Black Council near the end and will eventually see that Fae - including a very senior one like Lea can be affected.
The biggie for this is Mab finds out that Maeve is a traitor. I am not clear if this comes from her meeting with Lily and Harry at Macs OR by giving orders to the Scarecrow to kill Harry (this is my indirect theory on why the Scarecrow attacked Harry). 2 books later in Small Favor if you recall Mab is no longer able to speak without hurting people. We find out later this is because she has uncovered Maeve and infected by Nemesis. It is these events that cause Mab to find out that Maeve is infected.
So, again why does Mab do things this way? The whole method is to look like something Mab would do or what people think Mab would do. No place in the novel does anyone doubt that Mab could be behind the kidnapping and murders. She needed to bring in a force she thinks she can trust to force the hand of Nemesis - namely Harry. She uses Rashid as a messanger as she sees him as trustworthy as well. The entire way of getting Harry to AT involves beings outside of Faerie. Think about it, outside of battle and talks with the Summer/Winter Ladies and Summer Knight there are no Faeries in this conversation. This is a dangerous plan for all involved, but that never bothers Mab.
In many ways, this means that there are echoes that come from this attack through Changes, CD and even SG.
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Assume Murphy is a MAB construct. Or that she was/is/will be MAB.
We got Gatekeeper warning Harry about black magic.
Dresden,
In the past ten days there have been repeated acts of black magic in Chicago. As the senior Warden in the region, it falls to you to investigate and find those responsible. In my opinion, it is vital that you do so immediately. To my knowledge, no one else is aware of the situation.
Rashid
We got someone who tried to take out Harry in an attack of opportunity. AKA Chrysler hit Harry.
We get Grayson who calls in Murphy.
Grayson let out a wry chuckle. “I need to fill out some papers. You okay to help me fill in the blanks?”
“Sure,” I told him.
“Thanks for the call, Sergeant,” Murphy said.
“De nada,” Grayson replied, touching the brim of his cap with a finger. “I’ll get those forms, Dresden, soon as the wrecker gets here.”
She reached out and twitched a stray bit of hair from my forehead. “You’re a great big girl, Dresden. One little fender bender and you go all emotional and pathetic.” Her eyes flickered to the Beetle again, and suddenly burned with a cold blue fire. “Do you know who did this to you?”
“Not yet,” I growled as the wrecker arrived. “But you can bet your ass I’m going to find out.
Murphy is informed that something kinky is going on via Gatekeeper.
“I understand.” I looked around for a change of subject. “So. There’s black magic afoot in Chicago, according to an annoyingly vague letter from the Gatekeeper.”
“Who is he?”
“Wizard. Way mysterious.”
“You believe him?”
“Yeah,” I said. “So we should be on the lookout for killings and strange incidents and so on. The usual.”
“Right,” Murphy said. “I’ll keep an eye out for corpses, weirdos, and monsters.”
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Assume Murphy is a MAB construct. Or that she was/is/will be MAB.
We got Gatekeeper warning Harry about black magic.
We got someone who tried to take out Harry in an attack of opportunity. AKA Chrysler hit Harry.
We get Grayson who calls in Murphy.
Murphy is informed that something kinky is going on via Gatekeeper.
(AHEM), dude, I'm turning in my notice as an infected minion.
I've nearly completed my Rite of Ascension based on getting 100,000 people to laugh while drinking beverages, thus causing them to back up into their noses. The signs of my elevation to a super bad-a$$ ambulatory thunderstorm with incomparable magical power will be:
(1) Transformation of Miley Cyrus into a bullfrog tadpole (the Laws will no longer apply to me and besides, no one will notice the difference)
(2) April first will henceforth be remembered as the day of the Million Tyrannosaur March
(3) It'll go downhill from there
You have been warned.
Oh yeah, almost forgot--the question of "Who attacked Arctis Tor" will become irrelevant because it will be superseded by the question of "Who will attack Arctis Tor?" That would be ME. That is all.
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(AHEM), dude, I'm turning in my notice as an infected minion.
I've nearly completed my Rite of Ascension based on getting 100,000 people to laugh while drinking beverages, thus causing them to back up into their noses. The signs of my elevation to a super bad-a$$ ambulatory thunderstorm with incomparable magical power will be:
(1) Transformation of Miley Cyrus into a bullfrog tadpole (the Laws will no longer apply to me and besides, no one will notice the difference)
(2) April first will henceforth be remembered as the day of the Million Tyrannosaur March
(3) It'll go downhill from there
You have been warned.
Oh yeah, almost forgot--the question of "Who attacked Arctis Tor" will become irrelevant because it will be superseded by the question of "Who will attack Arctis Tor?" That would be ME. That is all.
100,000 seems like a bit of an overestimation. I count thus far...one 8)
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100,000 seems like a bit of an overestimation. I count thus far...one 8)
That's just because my mysterious Jedi powers keep you from seeing the other 99,000...
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That's just because my mysterious Jedi powers keep you from seeing the other 99,000...
Still leaves you 999 short.
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Still leaves you 999 short.
Wayulll...hadn't said I'd completed it, had I? Proof of this is that your head is not on fire.
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Wayulll...hadn't said I'd completed it, had I? Proof of this is that your head is not on fire.
Could be the ice bucket I wear to keep cool just as easily
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Wait, is that 100,000 people, or 50,000 each of IN people and OUT people?
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Could be the ice bucket I wear to keep cool just as easily
Ah. Well, I guess that's OK. Just don't let it happen again.
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Wait, is that 100,000 people, or 50,000 each of IN people and OUT people?
(http://i.imgur.com/slkNhno.jpg)
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Wait, is that 100,000 people, or 50,000 each of IN people and OUT people?
I'm no longer an infected minion, so I can't tell you.
And I don't have any more ice. Eldest Gruff took the bucket. Tell him to give it back to Lea when he's done with it.
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I'm no longer an infected minion, so I can't tell you.
And I don't have any more ice. Eldest Gruff took the bucket. Tell him to give it back to Lea when he's done with it.
This is MY bucket. There are many like it but this one is MINE.
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This is MY bucket. There are many like it but this one is MINE.
Yes. But the real question is...is that your pizza? And do you have to eat it cold?
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Yes. But the real question is...is that your pizza? And do you have to eat it cold?
I live in NY my friend. I am never without hot delicious pizza at my fingertips if needed.
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I live in NY my friend. I am never without hot delicious pizza at my fingertips if needed.
While I, on the other hand, live in Anchorage, so I am never without cold at my finger (and other) tips...
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You two are hilarious :p.
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I live in NY my friend. I am never without hot delicious pizza at my fingertips if needed.
Flushing Queens baby..... at least 3 pizzerias ina 4 block radius from my apartment ;) 8)
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Flushing Queens baby..... at least 3 pizzerias ina 4 block radius from my apartment ;) 8)
However, the best and most unique pizza I've encountered anywhere (including Queens and Brooklyn) is "Capri Pizza" on Sphenard Rd., Anchorage. Owned by a Pakistani Muslim couple and I can get it Halal (Zabiha). Their bar-b-q chicken pizza--seasoned with Indian spices!--is so good I want to get a 12", fold it in thirds, then lie down on my back and feed it continuously into my mouth "Tasmanian Devil"-style until I've scarfed it whole. Their Teriyaki Philly cheese steak calzones are damn near as good!
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Their Teriyaki Philly cheese steak calzones are damn near as good!
You just made my unbearably hungry...
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...I hate all of you. Literally as far away as you can get from NY in the continental US here.
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...I hate all of you. Literally as far away as you can get from NY in the continental US here.
Olympia, Washington?
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Olympia, Washington?
Okay, maybe not that literally. Socal.
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SF is further from NY than Olympia is according to the distance calculators I have found
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SF is further from NY than Olympia is according to the distance calculators I have found
I would object that, as Alaska is separated from New York by political division rather than a large expanse of salt water that we qualify as being furthest from NY on the "continental" US.
Olympia, WA? Nah. Besides, most of Olympia's population is up fishing in the Bering Sea right now...
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ok - contiguous continental United States - I think San Diego gets the honor of being the farthest away from NY
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ok - contiguous continental United States - I think San Diego gets the honor of being the farthest away from NY
Actually, San Ysidro ;)
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May as well say Spokane....lol
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May as well say Spokane....lol
NOW you've done it! Google, here I come...
2,869 miles by car from NYC to San Ysidro, CA (which is on the US/Mexican border). Haven't found anyplace further in contiguous US. But Circle, MN is the furthest place from a Starbuck's in the contiguous US. Huh. Montana can't be all bad, then...
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NOW you've done it! Google, here I come...
2,869 miles by car from NYC to San Ysidro, CA (which is on the US/Mexican border). Haven't found anyplace further in contiguous US. But Circle, MN is the furthest place from a Starbuck's in the contiguous US. Huh. Montana can't be all bad, then...
Wow...you get a B + ! :D
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Wow...you get a B + ! :D
How about if I ditch class for the rest of the day?
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In that case you get an a A ... if you get the rest of the kids to go with you you'll get an A+ !!! ;D
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In that case you get an a A ... if you get the rest of the kids to go with you you'll get an A+ !!! ;D
That's what I thought. Now if I got 'em to leave coffee and donuts on your desk instead of the proverbial apple, could I just skip ahead to graduation and be done with it?
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Coffee's a go....if it is really good coffee then take week off !!!! :) :D ;)
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I know you all ignored my answers two pages ago, but I thought I should point out that this entire topic was discussed in Small Favor by Mab and Harry. I suggest listening to it.
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I know you all ignored my answers two pages ago, but I thought I should point out that this entire topic was discussed in Small Favor by Mab and Harry. I suggest listening to it.
To be fair this topic hasn't really been discussed since page six, few different tangents have spewed off since then ::)
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Yes, we came for the Arctis Tor debate, and stayed for the geographical debate.
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What if Mavra took up one of the Coins? She's a pretty powerful sorcerous, and Black court vamp. Wouldn't that make her pretty powerful? Maybe she was one of the people bringing down a ton of Hell fire?
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What if Mavra took up one of the Coins? She's a pretty powerful sorcerous, and Black court vamp. Wouldn't that make her pretty powerful? Maybe she was one of the people bringing down a ton of Hell fire?
Not mortal. She may not be eligible.
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Not mortal. She may not be eligible.
We've been batting around the idea of eligibility on another thread...do you need a soul or is it just preferred because the Fallen love twisting souls away from God, things of that nature.
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We've been batting around the idea of eligibility on another thread...do you need a soul or is it just preferred because the Fallen love twisting souls away from God, things of that nature.
So far every person who's gotten a coin has been mortal with free will.
How that meshes with nic's offer to grey, I don't know. My speculation is that grey is a naagloshi scion, not full on naagloshi or other shapeshifting immortal without free will.
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So far every person who's gotten a coin has been mortal with free will.
How that meshes with nic's offer to grey, I don't know. My speculation is that grey is a naagloshi scion, not full on naagloshi or other shapeshifting immortal without free will.
Predicated on a couple of assumptions: (1) Humans are the only beings with souls. I disagree. Jinni, at least, have souls too. Maybe other sentient being as well. (2) Grey is half-Naagloshii. (3) That Grey is half human. (4) That Nick knew what Grey was, and that he had a soul on which one of the Fallen could ride.
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So far every person who's gotten a coin has been mortal with free will.
How that meshes with nic's offer to grey, I don't know. My speculation is that grey is a naagloshi scion, not full on naagloshi or other shapeshifting immortal without free will.
But technically isn't Mavra a demon with free will? Maybe after Dresden threatened her she was willing to make them an offer. A merger. "I help you with your goals, you help me with mine, then we go our separate ways." or something like that.
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But technically isn't Mavra a demon with free will? Maybe after Dresden threatened her she was willing to make them an offer. A merger. "I help you with your goals, you help me with mine, then we go our separate ways." or something like that.
I don't think the Denarians have anything she wants. Mavra is all about Mavra, and with the Darkhallow ritual at her fingertips i'm sure she has much bigger plans. A Fallen would just get in her way.
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But technically isn't Mavra a demon with free will? Maybe after Dresden threatened her she was willing to make them an offer. A merger. "I help you with your goals, you help me with mine, then we go our separate ways." or something like that.
Hmm...when a human is killed by a Black Court Vampire, does his/her soul depart? My guess would be yes, as our souls depart when we die--or, according to my faith, the connection (i.e. will) between our souls and bodies is severed, such that we remain aware of our surroundings but can no longer respond to them physically through our bodies.
Mavra was originally human. Is her rotting corpse now inhabited by her shade? She's dead, after all. Can a human shade pick up a coin and receive a Fallen?
You've broached a really intriguing subject, Groinkick--I suggest you start a topic thread on it.
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I don't think the Denarians have anything she wants. Mavra is all about Mavra, and with the Darkhallow ritual at her fingertips i'm sure she has much bigger plans. A Fallen would just get in her way.
I got the impression that Mavra wanted Kemmler's book so it couldn't be used against her and her kind, not that she had delusions of god-hood.
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I got the impression that Mavra wanted Kemmler's book so it couldn't be used against her and her kind, not that she had delusions of god-hood.
Idk, the Word of Kemmler is kind of a non-threat to her and her people, who's gonna attain god-hood and go aiming for the scraps of the Black Court? I actually thing she wanted it for someone else entirely.
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Idk, the Word of Kemmler is kind of a non-threat to her and her people, who's gonna attain god-hood and go aiming for the scraps of the Black Court? I actually thing she wanted it for someone else entirely.
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure there's either brief mention in DB text or a WoJ that she wanted the book because it could be used by necromancers to threaten the Black Court. Anyone with a reasonably intact memory care to take a swing at this?
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Yeah, but I'm pretty sure there's either brief mention in DB text or a WoJ that she wanted the book because it could be used by necromancers to threaten the Black Court. Anyone with a reasonably intact memory care to take a swing at this?
Well, Harry's threat to her at the end of Dead Beat certainly seems to suggest that Mavra believes that necromancy can be turned against blampires like herself, and that the Word of Kemmler specifically contained that information.
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Hmm...when a human is killed by a Black Court Vampire, does his/her soul depart? My guess would be yes, as our souls depart when we die--or, according to my faith, the connection (i.e. will) between our souls and bodies is severed, such that we remain aware of our surroundings but can no longer respond to them physically through our bodies.
Mavra was originally human. Is her rotting corpse now inhabited by her shade? She's dead, after all. Can a human shade pick up a coin and receive a Fallen?
You've broached a really intriguing subject, Groinkick--I suggest you start a topic thread on it.
Thank you very much. Is it her shade that possesses her body? I had assumed that the demon had taken over her corpse. Like the demon's that are within the White Court, or the demons the Red Court transform into. I just thought the Black Court demons reanimated the corpse, and maybe retained memory's or shade of the corps?
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Well, Harry's threat to her at the end of Dead Beat certainly seems to suggest that Mavra believes that necromancy can be turned against blampires like herself, and that the Word of Kemmler specifically contained that information.
Yayus. Think there was other mention of this as well.
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Thank you very much. Is it her shade that possesses her body? I had assumed that the demon had taken over her corpse. Like the demon's that are within the White Court, or the demons the Red Court transform into. I just thought the Black Court demons reanimated the corpse, and maybe retained memory's or shade of the corps?
Hmm...good points. Could they animate it by binding its shade inside it, thus artificially re-establishing a connection between will and dead flesh? that sounds real close to necromancy. Perhaps this is why new vampires fumble around so much, and why the older a BC vampire is the more powerful it gets, i.e. through a strengthening of the connection, as in the more ancient spirits resurrected in DB being the most powerful. This could be why Mavra was so anxious to get hold of the Word of Kemmler--perhaps both to protect the Black Court from being enslaved by necromancers such as Cowl and/or Corpsetaker and to accelerate the development of powerful vampires and rebuild her Court.
Also, I have read accounts of vampires of the Stoker variety being referred to as "blood-sucking ghosts." I think we're on to something here.
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Yayus. Think there was other mention of this as well.
There was a big discussion about it on this forum as well. It is about this quote from dead beat:
"I've got a fallen angel tripping all over herself to give me more power. Queen Mab has asked me to take the mantle of Winter Knight twice now. I've read Kemmler's book. I know how the Darkhallow works. And I know how to turn necromancy against the Black Court."
woj is that Harry was not bluffing. My interpretation of this quote is that Harry made every new threat bigger than the previous one and the last one is the scariest one for Mavra.
And he got that knowledge from Kemmlers book.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26717.msg1138970.html#msg1138970
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To get back to the OP, I think that while the Outsiders, Nemesis, or its agents might have long-term goals, like world domination, it's short-term strategies may change as events unfold.
For example, it appears Cowl made a deal with the Red Court to destroy the Senior Council for them. When that plan failed, it's possible the Outsiders or there allies decided it wouldn't be a bad thing for the Red Court to get hit by both Fairy Courts in order to wear the Red Court down, and make the Reds more dependent than ever on Outsider support.
Mab could have had more than one reason for holding almost all of her forces on the border with Summer. First, she would have wanted to keep the way to Arctis Tor mostly clear for the time when she would bring Harry Dresden to Arctis Tor to rescue Molly. Remember, there is evidence that the events at Splattercon!!! were planned about a year before the convention opened.
A second reason for Mab's behavior is more speculative. Mab may have not wanted the Red Court to get hammered by both the Summer and Winter Courts. She might have calculated that if both Summer and Winter attacked the Red Court, and the White Council later recovered enough strength to add its own weight to such attacks, the Reds might decide to sue for peace. I think that is something Mab would not have wanted to occur. I think Mab wanted revenge against the Red Court to come in a time and place of her own choosing way and she wanted her victory to be complete. Holding her forces at Summer's border ensured the Red Court would continue with its ruinous war.
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Five questions need answers before you can understand the attack on Arctis Tor
• Why did Mab prohibit Winter from going to war with the Red Court when they attacked through winter lands in Dead Beat?
• Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
• Who attacked Arctis Tor?
• Why attack Arctis Tor?
• What did Harry have to do with the above?
I see the first and second question as related. My best guess is that someone on the Black Council was owed a major debt by Mab. They used that debt to prohibit Mab from attacking or directly opposing their interests. If worded correctly, this would both force Mab to not respond to the provocation and also prevent her from destroying whoever attacked her base. This bargain would also explain why anybody would be so stupid as to provoke Winter to enter the war. If they knew that Winter could not enter the war, then the “stupid” act was actually a brilliant stratagem allowing the Red Court/Black Council to set the Council up for a very nasty fall.
As to who attacked Arctis Tor, I have no idea of specifics other than it would have to include a Denarian (likely Thorned Namshiel) and would have to include whoever made the bargain with Mab, presumably Cowl.
The last question is still a bit of a mystery to me. The most likely reason I can think of is that the Black Council was trying to kill Mab herself, counting on the bargain to prevent her from defending herself. They did not count on Mab simply hiding. This would make a lot of sense if Maeve was already infected and this fact known to the Outsiders, even if Maeve herself was not working with the Council.
Notice, none of the above attributes Mab with planning the death of her guards (which would be against her obligations as their liege), nor does it mandate that Mab sent the Scarecrows. The guards would have died to give Mab time to hide effectively.
Nothing about the above has anything to do with Harry at all. It is much more likely in my mind that Harry’s involvement was due to Maeve’s planning. She needed a way to get Lily to trust her and this plan with Harry enabled that. Maeve ordered the scarecrows into action and Maeve made sure Harry would be involved.
Yes Maeve was infected, but I doubt she was consciously allied with the Black Council at this stage and instead was pursuing her own interests.
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IMO Wnter stayed out of the war because Maeve was out of the game. I dug up a bunch of info on celtic lore a little while ago and based on that, (it really all lines up very neatly with what we know of the queens allready, although the idea that they might have acquired some hellish mantles at some point is worrisome, but that's a bit more speculative), Maeve would be the one who should have done the smacking around. Sure Mab could have done it but that isn't really whether power is about and she probably has a lot of annoying limitations making it harder than it should be, and she has a lot fo other responsibilities she may not be able to ignore for long enough. Not to mention it would have clearly stated Maeve wasn't doing her job to anyone with more than Harry's level of knowledge of the courts which would be baaaad.
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• Why did Mab prohibit Winter from going to war with the Red Court when they attacked through winter lands in Dead Beat?
Mab found out that Lea was infected but concluded she was not the only creature that was a problem in the Winter Court. She was concerned that with the imbalance of power between Summer and Winter that she needed to be extra careful. On top of that, she was concerned that Summer might be compromised as well.
• Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
Again, this is a plot understand who was under the influence of Nemesis.
• Who attacked Arctis Tor?
The Outsider backed forces.
• Why attack Arctis Tor?
To try to get Molly and prevent Mab from showing Lea to Harry.
• What did Harry have to do with the above?
This is the first time that he was shown somebody that was infected in an obvious manner. He had met infected Maeve but even Mab was not sure at that point.
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IMO Wnter stayed out of the war because Maeve was out of the game. I dug up a bunch of info on celtic lore a little while ago and based on that, (it really all lines up very neatly with what we know of the queens allready, although the idea that they might have acquired some hellish mantles at some point is worrisome, but that's a bit more speculative), Maeve would be the one who should have done the smacking around. Sure Mab could have done it but that isn't really whether power is about and she probably has a lot of annoying limitations making it harder than it should be, and she has a lot fo other responsibilities she may not be able to ignore for long enough. Not to mention it would have clearly stated Maeve wasn't doing her job to anyone with more than Harry's level of knowledge of the courts which would be baaaad.
Mab could have supported the war pretty easily and it woudl have been pretty devistating to the Red Court even if Mab and Maeve never got involved themselves. Harry was pretty clear. If Winter and Summer got involved, it was suicide for the Red Courts. There are a lot of very powerful fey that would have a ball killing Red Court Vampires anytime they went anywhere near the never-never.
The first indication that Mab knew about Maeve was small favor, which is after these events. Does not mean she did not suspect Maeve earlier, but your argument still seems a stretch.
Why did Mab not destroy any intruders attacking her citadel in Proven Guilty?
Again, this is a plot understand who was under the influence of Nemesis.
Not following this. Allowing an attack on Arctis tor is accepting a huge insult and a direct challange to Mab's authority and thus her power. She might do it to find out who is infected, but you need to explain how allowing outsiders to attack her home helps her identify infected fey. There does not seem to be an obvious connection to support this claim. In fact, the opposite would be true. Capture the intruders, torture them for information and see who among her people tries to free/kill them. Much better strategy to find infected individuals.
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dspringer1,
The whole plot of PG is Mab trying to uncover a traitor. If she crushes the plot, the traitor's plot does not advance. If the plot does not advance, then the traitor is not uncovered.
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Mab could have supported the war pretty easily and it woudl have been pretty devistating to the Red Court even if Mab and Maeve never got involved themselves. Harry was pretty clear. If Winter and Summer got involved, it was suicide for the Red Courts. There are a lot of very powerful fey that would have a ball killing Red Court Vampires anytime they went anywhere near the never-never.
The first indication that Mab knew about Maeve was small favor, which is after these events. Does not mean she did not suspect Maeve earlier, but your argument still seems a stretch.
Maeve has not been doing her job in any way shape or form for the last 150 years, there's a WoJ about it and SG has Molly mention it. Maeve didn't start acting up when she got infected, she already was, getting infected just let her act out in even more ways.
You also totally missed my point. Not sure if that's my fault or not.
What i'm saying is that based on what i dug up i rate it at a very high probability that smacking down errant supernatural nations is Maeve's Job. Sure the winter army may get involved in particularly major cases, but it's still the Lady's jobe to be the tip of the spear. If Mab went after the RC though at this stage with her Lady AWOL the simple absence of the Lady from said spear would tell everyone with knowledge of how the Fae work in big flashing neon signs that the winter court has a queen AWOL, which makes the winter court look supremely weak, something Mab just cannot afford.
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dspringer1,
The whole plot of PG is Mab trying to uncover a traitor. If she crushes the plot, the traitor's plot does not advance. If the plot does not advance, then the traitor is not uncovered.
Yes, but not just a traitor. I wrote this a month or two ago but never posted it in a thread called Proven Guilty mysteries.
What did Nemesis think about the Red Court? I think Nemesis probably saw them much as Nicodemus did. Nic described them as well organized and annoying in the short-term and dangerous and fatal in the medium to long-term. The Red Court had sorcerers, though we don’t know much about their abilities other than they were destructive. It’s possible that some of these Red Court magic users had the ability to harm or at least slow down The Outsiders; much as some mortal wizards do, making the Red Court a target that the Outsiders would want to remove as much as the White Council of Wizards.
The Red Court may have had human wizards or sorcerers on the payroll and used them to call up Outsiders during the fighting which was described in Dead Beat, but the vamps would have been stupid to assume the Outsiders were simply a tool they could use to defeat the wizards. More likely the Red Court was the tool of the Outsiders.
While kicking the White Council’s ass during a battle in Sicily, the Red King (probably) ordered his vampire warriors to chase the retreating White Council into the Nevernever, even though it meant going to war with both Winter and Summer. We know from Changes that the Big Red was pretty much insane. He was either Nemfected or just getting old and losing it as Duchess Arianna thought.
If he was Nemfected, the idea was to create a situation where the Red Court would be crushed by both Fairy Courts and any remaining wizards. Meanwhile the White Council; crippled by the Red Court assault which battered it in Sicily and in the Congo, would be over-matched when the Outsiders could make a full assault on our realty. Add to this, both Summer and Winter would take losses as well. If the Red King was just going senile, the Outsiders, or I should say their Nemfected agents, saw the possibilities the Red Court’s assault in the Nevernever had opened.
Unfortunately for the Nemesis, Mab refused to play that game. Many people think Mab had made some kind of bargain which precluded her from attacking the Red Court. I think Mab saw that doing so immediately would be a huge mistake and decided the best thing she could do was to do nothing. Mass most of her troops on the border with Summer, order them not to attack the Red Court even if the opportunity presented itself, and thereby pin Summer’s forces to their own border as well. In this manner Mab temporarily preserved the Red Court, but because Harry had prevented Cowl from making himself into a demi-god and destroy the Senior Council, the White Council was also preserved. Make no mistake, Mab wanted to see the Red Court pay for invading her turf; but she would defer punishing them until a time when doing so wouldn’t derail her own purpose of defeating the Outsiders. The White Council would have to repair its losses first.
Mab also gained one other critical advantage by refusing to take the bait and attack the Red Court. She forced Nemesis agents to make overt moves to attempt to achieve their goals. Mab may have hindsight, intellectus or just a great intelligence network, but whatever she has, she doesn’t have the ability to easily discern the identity of those beings who have been taken over by Nemesis. If she could do that she would have known Aurora was behind the murder of the Summer Knight. She would have known early on that Lea was infected and might have prevented Maeve from being taken over. Mab’s plan of sitting still worked. It drew Thorned Namshiel, Maeve and possibly the Scarecrow (Eldest Fetch) into making overt moves. My guess is when a way was opened for Thorned Namshiel to attack Arctis Tor, Maeve revealed herself as being Nemfected. Thorned Namshiel revealed itself as being Nemfected or an Outside ally (Black Circle member) simply by leading the attack on Mab's capital.
We can now understand the reason for so-called Black Council attack on Arctis Tor. It was intended to force Mab to recall her troops to defend her home from the invaders, and allow Summer to attack the Reds. An attack by Summer alone would not destroy the Red Court, but it would cut the Red Court down to size so neither side had an advantage and both the Red Court and White Council would continue to wear each other down.
However, the plan failed. Whatever magic abilities Thorned Namshiel had and whatever allies it brought to the party, they couldn’t do more than kill a rear guard of Mab’s personal troll body guards. Mab was too strong at the heart of her power to be intimidated into recalling her forces because Thorned Namshiel and company couldn’t break in. We have never seen Mab do more than direct a battle, but there is a WoJ that states that she is very impressive when fighting. So I guess even hellfire couldn’t melt Arctis Tor with Mab there.
However, there is an addendum to the above scenario. Spiny boy and company couldn’t break in to Arctis Tor, but Mab couldn’t drive them away without recalling her forces from the border, so instead a parley occurred and a deal was struck. Mab agreed to not directly involve herself in the activities which came next in Winter and specifically not to harm Eldest Fetch. Thorned Namshiel probably promised to leave and never return. Though you can’t trust the word of a Denarian, Mab would not have had to keep her word if Thorned Namshiel had not at least fulfilled the first part of the deal and left. Mab kept her word but cheated in other ways, like going to Chicago and fixing Little Chicago so Harry Dresden could track the Fetches.
So in the end Mab identified Nemesis agents or allies; witnessed Harry eliminate Eldest Fetch who was likely Nemfected, or at least got further confirmation that Harry was the perfect choice to be her next Knight, and got to size up Molly's potential as a future recruit. However, Maeve was able to win Lily's trust and start her long-con designed to destroy both Summer and Winter. Nemesis; thanks to Maeve, got to see the Red Court take a beating ensuring the war would drag on, with the new goal of gradually wearing down both sides so when the time came neither the Council nor the Reds could hope to stand up to the Outsiders.
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I totally get the argument that PG is a mole hunt by Mab. That Mab specifically acted in atypical ways to force infected fey to reveal themselves. If it is indeed true that Maeve is the war leader of the winter fey, then keeping winter out of the war is the obvious tactic to hide that weakness.
However, I still feel the argument is weak and overly complicated
• If her true enemies are the outsiders, then her true enemies already know Maeve is infected. So she takes this huge prestige hit (of not going to war) to avoid her allies and neighbors from knowing weaknesses (Maeve refusing to lead) that are obvious to her deadliest enemies? Not sure that makes a lot of sense.
• What purpose would attacking Arctis Tor have for the Black Council/Outsiders? Either Mab kills them or her guards kill them or other winter fey kill them. The only reason they got in and out without heavy losses is because Mab let them. Yes you can argue the black council was testing her to see if she is really insane, but insane people can kill intruders as easily as sane people. Seems a very large risk for the black team to take unless they were confident that Mab would not kill them.
• Nothing about Maeve’s actions in the book indicated her infection. So making the argument that Maeve revealed herself through her actions here seems a stretch given the evidence in the books.
• Mab could easily have started a war while specifically forbidding Maeve to participate. It is no more “insane” than her other actions and equally likely to find her mole.
It is far simpler to argue that Mab is constrained by a debt, one made to a White Council wizard she had no reason to suspect was allied with the Outsiders.
BTW – my personal opinion is that Maeve revealed her infected status when she sent her 2nd in command (Green Teeth) to disrupt the Borden wedding and kill Georgia. By all the laws of fey, Maeve should not have been able to do that. Her conflict was with Harry and the Bordens were simply his tools in fey eyes. Queens cannot order mortals to be harmed without cause. The fact that Maeve did anyway showed she was infected.
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Nothing about Maeve’s actions in the book indicated her infection.
Maeve's interactions at Mac's Pub is where it became apparent. She gave a straight answer.
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KurtinStGeorge - love the analysis. Except for this piece:
However, there is an addendum to the above scenario. Spiny boy and company couldn’t break in to Arctis Tor, but Mab couldn’t drive them away without recalling her forces from the border, so instead a parley occurred and a deal was struck. Mab agreed to not directly involve herself in the activities which came next in Winter and specifically not to harm Eldest Fetch.
This part doesn't track with what we've seen. Mab would never make a bargain with an invading enemy at the heart of her power to go away. To do so would be to indicate weakness, and Mab never shows weakness. I get how you are tying her inaction into a larger plan, but Mab's larger plans always have her dealing from a position of strength. If Thorned Namshiel and his forces had invaded Winter, won their way to the gates of Arctis Tor itself, and Mab says "If you go away and not attack me any longer, I'll give you _____ ", then it would appear to one and all that Mab was unable to defeat TN's forces in the middle of her domain. Regardless of whether it was part of a larger plan or not, that sort of show of weakness would never happen by Mab.
More likely is that Mab knew exactly how many of her forces would be necessary to destroy TN's attackers and she let them fight to the last man/faerie/thing, and that was that.
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The attack looks more like a desperate action that failed. You do not attack Arctis Tor without a very good reason. It is a waste of resources and some of those resources were hidden resources, the use of hellfire points in that direction.
To even contemplate such an attack Nemesis must have thought she had a chance to achieve a worthwhile goal and that goal was not the capture of Arctis Tor, impossible to hold anyway, or the destruction of Mab, very unlikely to achieve.
Nemesis must also have been in a hurry to try something like this and not something more elaborate. There is only one explanation for that. Nemesis hoped to capture Lea before she could tell Mab about Maeves infection. Mab feigned some weakness and send all her troops away and waited for the attack. Nemesis hoped with Maeves help to get in and take Lea away but failed because Mab was ready and Maeve was revealed anyway. Lea was the bait and Nemesis went for it.
Maeve tried a second time with Harry but Lea had enough self control to prevent that.
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Hey, how about the attack on Arctis Tor was an attack of opportunity similar to Murphy's belief that the car hit on Harry was an attack of opportunity.
It is given to us as a means of explanation in the same book. Could it also be relevant to the attack on Arctis Tor too.
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This part doesn't track with what we've seen. Mab would never make a bargain with an invading enemy at the heart of her power to go away. To do so would be to indicate weakness, and Mab never shows weakness. I get how you are tying her inaction into a larger plan, but Mab's larger plans always have her dealing from a position of strength. If Thorned Namshiel and his forces had invaded Winter, won their way to the gates of Arctis Tor itself, and Mab says "If you go away and not attack me any longer, I'll give you _____ ", then it would appear to one and all that Mab was unable to defeat TN's forces in the middle of her domain. Regardless of whether it was part of a larger plan or not, that sort of show of weakness would never happen by Mab.
Totaly agree. My arguement is that somebody made the deal with Mab much earlier, before Mab began to realize the Outsiders were making a major play. Because this agreement existed, the Black council KNEW that they could attack Mab in her place of power and not be destroyed by Mab. I would argue that Mab has been trapped in this way since she first began to recuit Dresden due to all her talk about adoring freedom then.
Nemesis hoped to capture Lea before she could tell Mab about Maeves infection. Mab feigned some weakness and send all her troops away and waited for the attack. Nemesis hoped with Maeves help to get in and take Lea away but failed because Mab was ready and Maeve was revealed anyway. Lea was the bait and Nemesis went for it.
No way to capture lea or attack Arctis Tor without negating Mab. They fought Mab's guards outside the citadel --- it is not like they tried ot sneak in. Which means they either wanted Mab go fight (suicidal in her place of power) or they were confident that Mab could not fight.
Maeve might oppose Mab, but counting on Maeve to oppose Mab on your attack would have thrown away a secret and highly valuable asset (Maeve). The Black council woudl never have done that withought great need. And arguably, even if Maeve threw down with the black council folks, they still would have lost. Mab would have destroyed Maeve and created a new Winter lady who was not infected. yes we know now Mab was paralyzed by her love of her daughter, but I doubt anybody else knew this at the time of PG
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This part doesn't track with what we've seen. Mab would never make a bargain with an invading enemy at the heart of her power to go away. To do so would be to indicate weakness, and Mab never shows weakness. I get how you are tying her inaction into a larger plan, but Mab's larger plans always have her dealing from a position of strength. If Thorned Namshiel and his forces had invaded Winter, won their way to the gates of Arctis Tor itself, and Mab says "If you go away and not attack me any longer, I'll give you _____ ", then it would appear to one and all that Mab was unable to defeat TN's forces in the middle of her domain. Regardless of whether it was part of a larger plan or not, that sort of show of weakness would never happen by Mab.
I can maybe just about believe that kind of argument as plausible to Harry, when he brings it up about why to keep fighting the Red Court. It's still wrong but I can believe he believes it.
Mab, otoh, doesn't work for me at all.
There's something fundamentally Chaotic, to my mind, about this whole "worried about appearing weak" thing. It presupposes that other entities' short-term opinions of you are widely variable, and that they will act based on those short-term opinions; that it doesn't matter if you've been visibly strong for a thousand years, an afternoon of not looking strong is a risk. It presupposes that if someone does you an injury, you do better to go way over the top in retaliation and frighten them off, rather than respond proportionally and treat them as a rational actor who will accept a fair exchange.
Mab is the essence of Lawful. Faerie are bound to equal exchange, the entire supernatural legal system in the DV is something of which Mab claims personal ownership. That's a perspective that focuses on the long view, on understanding that if you can win against a given opponent 99.9% of the time, them getting lucky enough to end up in the 0.1% today doesn't make a blind bit of difference to what they can plausibly achieve against you tomorrow and the odds overwhelmingly favour them failing miserably if they try.
So I don't read Mab as giving a bent penny over anyone stupid enough to think "she bargained with an enemy under duress" means "now she's weak" because she's no less an archangel-level hitter for the sake of one specific circumstance, and the enemy who came out ahead is going to lose longer term, and anyone with any sense knows this. Why should she worry about people having opinions of her that are wrong ? She knows who and what she is.
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"Terrible pride in that creature. She'll never bend it."
Mab won't permit herself to appear weak to anyone, because her Ego is roughly the size of her Army.
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I'm looking for theories on Who attacked Arctis Tor , and specifically What was their Motivation?
Who -
The Carebears.
Why -
Because Mab wasn't loving enough...
What was their motivation? -
To break into the fairy network, stealing top information about the care share ray. Which Mab had been working on; to steal the feelings of all the worlds children.
What did they use? -
Hellfire, because Carebear's are generals of Lucifer. EVILbears... telling me how to feel, then using magic to change how I feel. EVIL, I tells ya.
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"Terrible pride in that creature. She'll never bend it."
Mab won't permit herself to appear weak to anyone, because her Ego is roughly the size of her Army.
See, I read that as never bending to care what anyone else thinks.
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Mab doesn't "personally" care how people view her and her relative strength. She cares about it "professionally".
As the leader of Winter, the arbiter of the Accords, a literal force of nature unto herself, who has her entire Court in fear of her wrath if they step even the tiniest toe out of line: witness a single drop of blood on the floor drawing her up from her throne while the entire Court froze in place at the sure knowledge that this tiny transgression would bring swift and deadly retribution. With a single word she demanded her Knight freeze/shatter the bleeder. She didn't need to explain what was happening or her wishes. Everyone there KNEW that with Mab, the consequences are instantly lethal. And then she approved of her Knight freeze/shattering a court noble just to prove how powerful he was in Mab's service, and everyone would be reminded that Mab's right hand was going to be just as lethal.
These are not the actions of a monarch who is content to follow a path of "don't sweat the small stuff". If she is known for following up seemingly minor points of etiquette in her Court with instant lethality, there is no way whatsoever that she would allow herself to be seen as unwilling or unable to defeat an attack against her stronghold.
From a simply logical standpoint, if enemies of Mab are shown that they can attack Arctis Tor, and doing so can allow them to walk away, with something for their efforts in the form of whatever bargain was struck to entice them to walk away, then the attacks will occur more readily. She doesn't have time for such nonsense, so its better, logically, to act in such a way whenever an attack comes, that future attackers are given pause before attempting to do so. And Mab is all about logic. She's not about to act in such a way that more attacks will come, or that attackers who walk away after a bargain can take knowledge of her defenses and tactics away with them for further study. That would be akin to giving away information, and Mab gives nothing away.
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See, I read that as never bending to care what anyone else thinks.
Even though the context of the scene is Kringle warning she'd have killed Harry if anyone had seen him challenge her? And it was a warning that he should never challenge her pride?
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Even though the context of the scene is Kringle warning she'd have killed Harry if anyone had seen him challenge her? And it was a warning that he should never challenge her pride?
Even so. Kringle is a trickster deity in disguise, remember ?
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Even so. Kringle is a trickster deity in disguise, remember ?
Ah, so we're back to your favourite pose of 'everyone is lying to Harry any time something happens that contradicts my theory'. Good to know.
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Ah, so we're back to your favourite pose of 'everyone is lying to Harry any time something happens that contradicts my theory'. Good to know.
Commence trolling
It's the IN Harry who always get lied to. The OUT Harry gets the straight scoop at all times
End trolling
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I like it.
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Ah, so we're back to your favourite pose of 'everyone is lying to Harry any time something happens that contradicts my theory'. Good to know.
No, we're on my long-established position of "Odin says whatever he wants to attain the end he wants and its relation to truth is immaterial, because he's a trickster deity and that goes with the territory."
If you want to claim I think everyone is lying to Harry, find an example where I've said it about Michael. Or Sanya. Or Mab. Heck, even Murphy would do. Otherwise, please stop treating my reasoned assessment of the differing reliability of different characters in the series as if it was either "everyone always lies" or cherrypicking for convenience.
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I'm not saying that you think everyone is lying to Harry. I'm saying that whenever someone provides something from the text that runs counter to whatever theory you're arguing for, your default response it "that isn't evidence that I'm wrong, it just proves that that character is lying/Harry is misinterpreting that/Jim is tricking us/whatever".
Which is especially ridiculous when the character in question (Kringle) is a Fae, and therefore physically incapable of lying.
Quite frankly it makes it near impossible to have any sort of reasonable discussion with you because you fit the evidence to your conclusion, rather then drawing a conclusion from the evidence.
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Which is especially ridiculous when the character in question (Kringle) is a Fae, and therefore physically incapable of lying.
That only applies to sidhe.
ebliss hit the nail on the head IMO. Mab's got major issues to deal with at the gates and just cannot afford to have people stabbing her in the back.
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That only applies to sidhe.
ebliss hit the nail on the head IMO. Mab's got major issues to deal with at the gates and just cannot afford to have people stabbing her in the back.
And when Odin is acting as Kringle, he's likely held by Winter Law or something like it. There's a chance that he can't lie as Kringle. It makes sense, really. If the Fae mantles' natures are determined by human faith, then Kringle probably can't outright lie.
Harry can still lie because he's mortal and has free will. I'm not sure that Odin really does.
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Oh, I have no doubt that Odin can lie. He's famous for being a trickster and a manipulator. One of his Names is "Oathbreaker".
But Kringle =/= Odin. Kringle is a Fae, and has to obey Fae rules. I also suspect that as Kringle he's vulnerable to Iron, but as Odin he isn't.
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One of his Names is "Oathbreaker".
I'd forgotten about that tidbit until now. Wonder how Jim's going to play it out in-story? After all, one keeping one's oath is hugely important in Dresden's world.
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Oh, I have no doubt that Odin can lie. He's famous for being a trickster and a manipulator. One of his Names is "Oathbreaker".
But Kringle =/= Odin. Kringle is a Fae, and has to obey Fae rules. I also suspect that as Kringle he's vulnerable to Iron, but as Odin he isn't.
That strikes me as an assertion that thus far has not one shred of proof.
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That strikes me as an assertion that thus far has not one shred of proof.
As Kringle he is a winter king and subject to Mab. Woj calls him a winter king and a specific aspect of winter, a more benevolent one.
Harry would be wise to work via Kringle and not Odin, it is probably safer that way.
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As Kringle he is a winter king and subject to Mab.
Winter King, yes. Subject to mab ? I thought we had a WoJ somewhere that the Faerie Kings aren't technically subjects to their Queens, just generally go along with them because it's easier than making a fuss.
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Winter King, yes. Subject to mab ? I thought we had a WoJ somewhere that the Faerie Kings aren't technically subjects to their Queens, just generally go along with them because it's easier than making a fuss.
They have SOME latitude but they must be beholden to the Queens otherwise Kringle wouldn't have felt obliged to show up to Mac's in SG as anything.
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They have SOME latitude but they must be beholden to the Queens otherwise Kringle wouldn't have felt obliged to show up to Mac's in SG as anything.
I think that the distinction is that while the "Summer King", the Erlking, is nominally affiliated with Summer but is in reality a major lord of the Wyldfae, the "Winter King" is actually a member of Mab's court, hence why she can order him around. At the same time, ol' Kringle is allowed latitude to act outside of the rules and restrictions of the Winter Fae in his role as Donar Vadderung, CEO of Monoc Securities, which is about as separate from the Fae as you can get.
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They have SOME latitude but they must be beholden to the Queens otherwise Kringle wouldn't have felt obliged to show up to Mac's in SG as anything.
Remind me where in the text it says he was obliged to show up ?
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Remind me where in the text it says he was obliged to show up ?
I do not have SG in front of me. Harry more or less goes 'Seriously, you showed up as Kringle?' to which Vadderung replies, 'Mab has the right to call on Kringle'. Paraphrashing.
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I do not have SG in front of me. Harry more or less goes 'Seriously, you showed up as Kringle?' to which Vadderung replies, 'Mab has the right to call on Kringle'. Paraphrashing.
I shall doublecheck when next I am home and remember. Because I am not recalling anything to lock down that he absolutely has to come when she calls him, but my memory is far from perfect.
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Kringle is a subject of hers. She can call on him. But not on Vadderung.
It kinda goes with the territory of holding that mantle. He chose to use that mask instead of making a fight for territory.
But, it isn't like Mab is coercing Kringle. It is in Kringle's interest to assist Mab.
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Kringle winked at me. “The Winter Knight called for me in his official capacity as an agent of the Winter Court. Mab has the right to summon Kringle. If she’d called for Vadderung, I’d have told her to get in line.”
The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.
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The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.
Agreed. The relationship itself is more mutual because of who Vadderung is otherwise and i'm sure she bears that in mind when deciding to summon him. But if Mab wants Kringle at the end of the day, she's gonna get Kringle.
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The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.
OK, thank you.
Next question: Odin's decision of when to wear the Kringle mantle, is it informed by awareness of the possibility of summoning ? I incline to think yes.
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OK, thank you.
Next question: Odin's decision of when to wear the Kringle mantle, is it informed by awareness of the possibility of summoning ? I incline to think yes.
As in does he have it for that reason, wanting some sort of relationship within Winter beyond whatever form of 'alliance' he might be able to gin up as his role as Odin...or that he wears it on every other say Saturday anticipating a jingle?
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As in does he have it for that reason, wanting some sort of relationship within Winter beyond whatever form of 'alliance' he might be able to gin up as his role as Odin...or that he wears it on every other say Saturday anticipating a jingle?
I was thinking more, he puts it on when there's something big and obvious on the horizon like a trans-temporal attack which it would benefit him to be able to use Kringle's particular powerset with, and where being summoned by Mab (is that summoned in the magic-circle sense or in the sending a messenger saying "your assistance is needed" sense, I wonder?) fits with his plans to counter it. Whereas by contrast at the end of Changes, it seems to have suited him better to show up at CI in his own guise.
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I was thinking more, he puts it on when there's something big and obvious on the horizon like a trans-temporal attack which it would benefit him to be able to use Kringle's particular powerset with, and where being summoned by Mab (is that summoned in the magic-circle sense or in the sending a messenger saying "your assistance is needed" sense, I wonder?) fits with his plans to counter it. Whereas by contrast at the end of Changes, it seems to have suited him better to show up at CI in his own guise.
Hard to say because we don't yet quite know what Odin's deal with this mantle is. By which I mean does he slip it on and off at will. I'm more inclined to think he always has the mantle...for one if it were so easy to discard then it kinda defeats the definition of a mantle, two it could be made vulnerable to theft or outside influence...and that its part of his overall power.
Think of it like and first person shooter picking up different guns. You don't use them all at once, you re-quip as needed...but strictly speaking that doesn't mean you lose the other weapons either they just go in the 'magic pocket'. So I think he is always Kringle, always has Kringle and just chooses when to be 'active' as Kringle.
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Think of it like and first person shooter picking up different guns. You don't use them all at once, you re-quip as needed...but strictly speaking that doesn't mean you lose the other weapons either they just go in the 'magic pocket'. So I think he is always Kringle, always has Kringle and just chooses when to be 'active' as Kringle.
So you reckon he's summonable by Mab because of having Kringle in his magic pocket even when he's not active as Kringle ?
I incline to think not, but without any solid argument. Only thing I can think of that might be related is Harry trying to summon the Nightmare in GP without having exactly the right name but being able to get it anyway, but then at that point the Nightmare has goodly chunks of several people's souls including Harry's own, and it's ages since I've read that bit.
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So you reckon he's summonable by Mab because of having Kringle in his magic pocket even when he's not active as Kringle ?
I incline to think not, but without any solid argument. Only thing I can think of that might be related is Harry trying to summon the Nightmare in GP without having exactly the right name but being able to get it anyway, but then at that point the Nightmare has goodly chunks of several people's souls including Harry's own, and it's ages since I've read that bit.
I just think it would entirely fly in the face of what we currently know mantles to be, admittedly incomplete thou it is, that he can just set it aside here and there. Now suppressing it or having another source of primary power on top of it that you can go to sure. Kinda like when Harry uses soulfire...its an alternative source of power separate and apart from his mantle or his original base of magic. Not always used, not always necessary but always THERE.
If the Kringle mantle could be 'set aside' then the same rule as Vadderung could apply, Mab summons him and he shrugs saying 'i'm not Kringle today, try again later.' and then what good does that do anyone?
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I just think it would entirely fly in the face of what we currently know mantles to be, admittedly incomplete thou it is, that he can just set it aside here and there.
In a sense of power, yes. But in a sense of identity, I think the scale of difference is not dissimilar to Harry being extended invitations as "Harry Dresden, Winter Knight" or "Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council"; it seems clearly in earlier books that him being in certain situations as Emissary of Winter has different significance to him being there when invited as a Council member though he does not stop being a Council member while he is Emissary.
If the Kringle mantle could be 'set aside' then the same rule as Vadderung could apply, Mab summons him and he shrugs saying 'i'm not Kringle today, try again later.' and then what good does that do anyone?
I'm not seeing that a way to have a smart and powerful and really dangerous player on your side when he wants to be is particularly less useful than a way of calling him to your side whether he wants to be or not, whether it antagonises him or not.
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The right to summon seems to me as an obligation to come.
I think compulsion more than just obligation. "Right" means a power to act without "let" or permission. None can stop you or interfere. If Mab has a "right" it cannot be gainsaid by anyone, least of all the one she is calling.
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In a sense of power, yes. But in a sense of identity, I think the scale of difference is not dissimilar to Harry being extended invitations as "Harry Dresden, Winter Knight" or "Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council"; it seems clearly in earlier books that him being in certain situations as Emissary of Winter has different significance to him being there when invited as a Council member though he does not stop being a Council member while he is Emissary.
I'm not seeing that a way to have a smart and powerful and really dangerous player on your side when he wants to be is particularly less useful than a way of calling him to your side whether he wants to be or not, whether it antagonises him or not.
Odin's motive for attaining and maintaining the Kringle mantle is secondary, I think, to how it's used in the context of the story at that point. Mab needed Harry to have certain information and/or "connections"/"assistance". Odin/Kringle had what was needed, but the Odin portion might be disinclined to "share" without some sort of recompense/deal being struck. The Kringle portion, as Mab's subject, would have no choice but to obey his liege. Mab's selection of using Kringle instead of Odin to provide the necessary bypassed Odin's predilection for "doing business" and went straight to "obey me" and everybody's happy... Harry gets what he needs, Mab exercises her "right" without issue/resistance and Odin can both discharge his Kringle-Mantle duty to Mab and support Harry's cause to his own benefit without the works getting mucked up over "jurisdictional" issues among "Powers". Win-Win all around and tidily done.
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Agreed. There is woj that mab is too smart to attempt to abuse the relationship.
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Remind me where in the text it says he was obliged to show up ?
Right here, not that it'll do us any good.
Kringle winked at me. “The Winter Knight called for me in his official capacity as an agent of the Winter Court. Mab has the right to summon Kringle. If she’d called for Vadderung, I’d have told her to get in line.”
Butcher, Jim (2014-05-27). Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 371). Penguin Group US. Kindle Edition.
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Agreed. There is woj that mab is too smart to attempt to abuse the relationship.
On the other hand there is also a quote that no knows who would win in a fight between Odin and Mab, but that everyone knows it is coming IIRC. So presumably either Mab is eventually going to abuse the relationship, or maybe Odin has plans that don't include Mab being around.
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On the other hand there is also a quote that no knows who would win in a fight between Odin and Mab, but that everyone knows it is coming IIRC. So presumably either Mab is eventually going to abuse the relationship, or maybe Odin has plans that don't include Mab being around.
Never heard that one. Can't even see how Odin could hope to stand up to Mab.
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Never heard that one. Can't even see how Odin could hope to stand up to Mab.
I don't remember where it is, but it was within the last couple of years.
Some people argued that as Odin is a god renowned for foresight that he could plan something that Mab couldn't counter, my theory was that we haven't seen Odin at full power, only as Kringle and Vadderung. There is another WOJ that Vadderung enjoys being in the mortal world, subject to people trying to take him out. So my idea is that Vadderung is Odin without his Odin or Kringle powers so that he can live in the mortal world without causing cracks in reality, kinda like Ferrovax boasting that his full form would crack the earth.
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Yeah, foresight gives odin the edge. Mab would lose a very resourceful vassal too.
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I don't remember where it is, but it was within the last couple of years.
Some people argued that as Odin is a god renowned for foresight that he could plan something that Mab couldn't counter, my theory was that we haven't seen Odin at full power, only as Kringle and Vadderung. There is another WOJ that Vadderung enjoys being in the mortal world, subject to people trying to take him out. So my idea is that Vadderung is Odin without his Odin or Kringle powers so that he can live in the mortal world without causing cracks in reality, kinda like Ferrovax boasting that his full form would crack the earth.
I'll agree that Vadderung seems to be a lesser form of Odin. But I'm not sure they're so easily divided. We saw Vadderung at the seat of his power, and Vadderung's power is directly tied to Odin. He has Odin's ravens, he has his troops, he uses Odin's eye as his symbol. It seems more like Odin became Vadderung as his power waned. He's not what he once was. He's probably still packing more than what we've seen, but as we've seen him take the field with Gungnir, I think he's still definitely what's left of Odin.
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I'll agree that Vadderung seems to be a lesser form of Odin. But I'm not sure they're so easily divided. We saw Vadderung at the seat of his power, and Vadderung's power is directly tied to Odin. He has Odin's ravens, he has his troops, he uses Odin's eye as his symbol. It seems more like Odin became Vadderung as his power waned. He's not what he once was. He's probably still packing more than what we've seen, but as we've seen him take the field with Gungnir, I think he's still definitely what's left of Odin.
Hang on a moment. Does anyone remember the exact quote from Cold Days?
Kringle says something to the effect of "Before Halloween, I'm not Santa; afterwards, I am." Maybe his Mantle is dependent on when in the year it is?
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Hang on a moment. Does anyone remember the exact quote from Cold Days?
Kringle says something to the effect of "Before Halloween, I'm not Santa; afterwards, I am." Maybe his Mantle is dependent on when in the year it is?
He shows up as Kringle in the spring in SKIN GAME, and as Odin in November in CHANGES.
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He shows up as Kringle in the spring in SKIN GAME, and as Odin in November in CHANGES.
...well, balls.
It's a shame that it isn't anything as simple as Mab swapping out personas depending on the occasion.
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I'll agree that Vadderung seems to be a lesser form of Odin. But I'm not sure they're so easily divided. We saw Vadderung at the seat of his power, and Vadderung's power is directly tied to Odin. He has Odin's ravens, he has his troops, he uses Odin's eye as his symbol. It seems more like Odin became Vadderung as his power waned. He's not what he once was. He's probably still packing more than what we've seen, but as we've seen him take the field with Gungnir, I think he's still definitely what's left of Odin.
We saw him at the seat of his power in Midgard I think, Odin's seat of power was in Valhalla as far as I know.
It may be that Odin can only dwell in Asgard, and that if he wants to dwell on earth for long, he needs to leave behind most of his power. Thus Vadderung.
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We saw him at the seat of his power in Midgard I think, Odin's seat of power was in Valhalla as far as I know.
It may be that Odin can only dwell in Asgard, and that if he wants to dwell on earth for long, he needs to leave behind most of his power. Thus Vadderung.
The only being with location restrictions appear to be Naagloshii. More likely its that his power, like most all the other gods, waned as belief stopped.
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The only being with location restrictions appear to be Naagloshii. More likely its that his power, like most all the other gods, waned as belief stopped.
I think there's a range of location restrictions and effects.
Odin said he was the most powerful in his office in changes.
Naag have an energy bleed when they leave their home
DR has to bargain to move his consciousness beyond the island.
A threshold's power and the wards based on it are restricted to that home.
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I think there's a range of location restrictions and effects.
Odin said he was the most powerful in his office in changes.
Naag have an energy bleed when they leave their home
DR has to bargain to move his consciousness beyond the island.
A threshold's power and the wards based on it are restricted to that home.
Odin was at the focus of his power, just like Arctis Tor is for Mab or Demonreach for Harry...its their sanctums. But Naagloshii, unless otherwise provided for, steadily lose power when away from their native lands. The other three would not, they just wouldn't be at their absolute most powerful 24/7 away from those places that's all. So its still very different.
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Odin was at the focus of his power, just like Arctis Tor is for Mab or Demonreach for Harry...its their sanctums. But Naagloshii, unless otherwise provided for, steadily lose power when away from their native lands. The other three would not, they just wouldn't be at their absolute most powerful 24/7 away from those places that's all. So its still very different.
WOJ says that powerful beings only send a whisper of their power through to the mortal world so that they don't damage it. We see from Mab that her continued presence makes winter stick around longer, and that Ferro isn't in his true form because it would crack the earth.
Vadderungs place of power was in the mortal world, aka Midguard, but myth puts his place of power as Valhalla in Asgard (ie part of the Never Never). So if Odin is truely powerful to challenge Mab, and we know that the Erlking leading the Wyld Hunt with a few Denarians haven't got a chance in hell against her, than he can't be on earth at full power or he would be impacting the world in a discernable way. Remember that even Shagnasty disrupted the world enough for Harry to sense it and Odin should be vastly more powerful than it.
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WOJ says that powerful beings only send a whisper of their power through to the mortal world so that they don't damage it. We see from Mab that her continued presence makes winter stick around longer, and that Ferro isn't in his true form because it would crack the earth.
Vadderungs place of power was in the mortal world, aka Midguard, but myth puts his place of power as Valhalla in Asgard (ie part of the Never Never). So if Odin is truely powerful to challenge Mab, and we know that the Erlking leading the Wyld Hunt with a few Denarians haven't got a chance in hell against her, than he can't be on earth at full power or he would be impacting the world in a discernable way. Remember that even Shagnasty disrupted the world enough for Harry to sense it and Odin should be vastly more powerful than it.
Beings like the Mothers or the Archangels sure, that's why the former don't make a habit of wandering earth, and the latter have rules governing their strength to keep the earth 'whole'. Shagnasty disrupted the immediate area around him ON Demonreach, which is an island designed to lock him up. The disruption was it sensing a powerful, evil force. Odin may not be at the very apex of his strength in say Mac's pub, neither would Mab. But they could still swat down Shaggy in a heartbeat from their barstools.
Personally I do not see Odin as a pound for pound challenge to Mab, not as he is anymore. His strength is cunning, resourcefulness and an information network second to pretty much none. Does he still come as an incredibly formidable challenge absolutely, could he give her a rub for a bit, sure I wouldn't count the All-Father out. But in true raw power terms, probably not.
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I don't even think when we see Mab on Earth that she in her entirety is even on Earth. I go along with what others have stated that the construct we see on Earth is a whisper of power from that other being which resides within NN.
The NN is walled off from Earth with a threshold. Those being that exist within NN lose power when crossing that threshold.
I think the only being that could extend a complete invitation to cross the threshold without loss of power would be Mother Earth.
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Kringle says something to the effect of "Before Halloween, I'm not Santa; afterwards, I am." Maybe his Mantle is dependent on when in the year it is?
This remark was made as a complaint about how early Christmas Season has begun.
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I don't even think when we see Mab on Earth that she in her entirety is even on Earth. I go along with what others have stated that the construct we see on Earth is a whisper of power from that other being which resides within NN.
The NN is walled off from Earth with a threshold. Those being that exist within NN lose power when crossing that threshold.
I think the only being that could extend a complete invitation to cross the threshold without loss of power would be Mother Earth.
Gotta take issue with this interpretation, my brother:
A threshold is established by the beings that inhabit a space (structure/building whatever). I see no evidence--in the DV at least--that a world sentience/personification of the earth even exists, and in the RW posit that, if it does (big if), it's some form of "collective consciousness" of which all living inhabitants are a part (while ironically being unconscious of it, for the most part).
There has been some suggestion that fire ants, for example, may represent a "hive mind" that extends over many square miles, incorporate millions of nests and billions of individuals. Similarly, Acacia trees can chemically communicate their "distress" when fed upon by giraffes or elephants, such that neighboring trees in a radius of several miles increase production of tannic acid to make their own leaves less palatable. But this is a long way from extrapolating a worldwide consciousness.
Therefore if a threshold exists, it would have to be generated by the beings inhabiting the earth in this dimension. For a variety of reasons I think that would be difficult to maintain on a worldwide basis. It may depend on the nature of the beings seeking to cross from the NN--since the Fae or largely of human origin, they may not be inhibited by "threshold" effects, if these exist between NN/our world. Some of the really evil bastards might have more trouble.
Historically, at least in RW beliefs (including my own), other sentient beings besides ourselves have inhabited this world. Jinni, for example, were once earth's sole sentient inhabitants until they departed to "al-Gaib"--the Unseen Realm--which is close enough to be considered the NN in my book. And at lease some of them readily move back and forth between dimensions.
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Gotta take issue with this interpretation, my brother:
A threshold is established by the beings that inhabit a space (structure/building whatever). I see no evidence--in the DV at least--that a world sentience/personification of the earth even exists, and in the RW posit that, if it does (big if), it's some form of "collective consciousness" of which all living inhabitants are a part (while ironically being unconscious of it, for the most part).
There has been some suggestion that fire ants, for example, may represent a "hive mind" that extends over many square miles, incorporate millions of nests and billions of individuals. Similarly, Acacia trees can chemically communicate their "distress" when fed upon by giraffes or elephants, such that neighboring trees in a radius of several miles increase production of tannic acid to make their own leaves less palatable. But this is a long way from extrapolating a worldwide consciousness.
Therefore if a threshold exists, it would have to be generated by the beings inhabiting the earth in this dimension. For a variety of reasons I think that would be difficult to maintain on a worldwide basis. It may depend on the nature of the beings seeking to cross from the NN--since the Fae or largely of human origin, they may not be inhibited by "threshold" effects, if these exist between NN/our world. Some of the really evil bastards might have more trouble.
Historically, at least in RW beliefs (including my own), other sentient beings besides ourselves have inhabited this world. Jinni, for example, were once earth's sole sentient inhabitants until they departed to "al-Gaib"--the Unseen Realm--which is close enough to be considered the NN in my book. And at lease some of them readily move back and forth between dimensions.
Ooooooh, but what if everyone's belief in reality and the real world is the source of the barrier between the earth and the never-never? And the barrier grows weaker on Halloween not because of some cosmic cycle, but because people believe in the supernatural more on that night than any other, thus making it happen?
Don't mind me, just eating my Chinese food and tripping on the beef and broccoli sauce.
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Ooooooh, but what if everyone's belief in reality and the real world is the source of the barrier between the earth and the never-never? And the barrier grows weaker on Halloween not because of some cosmic cycle, but because people believe in the supernatural more on that night than any other, thus making it happen?
Don't mind me, just eating my Chinese food and tripping on the beef and broccoli sauce.
Enjoy. Gotta get hold of a copy of CD (left mine on an airplane) and review what Bob said about Halloween. Get back to you on it.
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Gotta take issue with this interpretation, my brother:
A threshold is established by the beings that inhabit a space (structure/building whatever). I see no evidence--in the DV at least--that a world sentience/personification of the earth even exists, and in the RW posit that, if it does (big if), it's some form of "collective consciousness" of which all living inhabitants are a part (while ironically being unconscious of it, for the most part).
Your entirely right to take issue with the interpretation. In particular the part about Mother Earth. When I wrote it, I considered who would be that 'person' who is allowed to invite. I disagreed with any one mere mortal as having the ability to give permission to an entity to completely come over without any loss in power. So, I made a guess as to what entity could play that part.
That said, it is obvious that mortals do get a privileged position in being able to summon things to Earth.
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Your entirely right to take issue with the interpretation. In particular the part about Mother Earth. When I wrote it, I considered who would be that 'person' who is allowed to invite. I disagreed with any one mere mortal as having the ability to give permission to an entity to completely come over without any loss in power. So, I made a guess as to what entity could play that part.
That said, it is obvious that mortals do get a privileged position in being able to summon things to Earth.
Sometimes certain mental associations give me the creeps. Your post reminded me of a short-story I read in one of the old SF pulp magazines back in the 60s or 70s. I remember neither title nor author.
Theme was that a guy on a psych ward in, I think NYC, and who thought he was Napoleon actually was Napoleon--he'd been whisked from his own time and place and a delusional lookalike from the mid-20th century who thought he was Napoleon was sent to replace him on the battlefield. At Waterloo.
A disembodied voice explained to him, as he sat on his bunk at night in the locked psych ward that humans were merely the pawns in an eternal game played between all-powerful factions identified only as "the Red", "the Black" and "the White". One of them made the switch as a gambit to alter history, thus furthering its own position vis-a-vis the other two. These three factions controlled all reality, all power, and formed a collective consciousness that for all practical purposes was "God" to the poor ignorant humans with whom they played.
Napoleon finally demanded to know these "Red" "Black" and "White" puppet masters. The voice replied, "It will drive you mad." Napoleon repeated his demand. The voice told him, "Walk to the door."
He did, but for several minutes he saw nothing. Then he looked closer, and saw a black ant crawling on the door. Napoleon went mad.
Later he was "cured" of his delusion and released. And the game went on...