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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: cander891 on April 14, 2025, 01:10:55 PM
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Recently I have been thinking a lot about Mirror Mirror, specifically what choices Harry could change that would have a profound ripple effect to himself and the series. Therefore, I started a reread with that specific question in mind.
Now -- I think that realistically, this change has to happen either before Storm Front OR up to the end of Grave Peril. I don't think it can go any deeper in the series to be effective.
With that said, thus far I have reread SF and FM and here is what I have so far:
Storm Front
- Beginning of book, Harry takes Marcone's offer to sit out the investigation.
- End of book, Harry choses to use the Dark Energy at the Sell's lake house to take out Viktor (This I believe would lead to him also taking out Morgan).
Fool Moon
- Early in the book, Harry choses to work for Marcone.
- Middle of book, Harry takes Chauncey's offer.
- End of book, Harry succumbs and continues to use the Wolf Belt
I will be moving to Grave Peril later and will add. In the meantime, feel free to opine. I believe this may have been a topic years ago, but I wanted to take a new look at it.
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Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.
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Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.
Was that a word of Jim? I missed that then. I knew the choice in GP would make my list and was the most likely. But I didn't know Jim actually confirmed it.
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Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.
I agree but see it a bit differently, 1] Agreed Harry chooses not to save Susan.. A bunch of possible ripples emanate from that.
A] Bianca lives, and whatever her plans were at the party when she was handing out come into play. One being the Reds do not go to war prematurely with the White Council, lots of ripples emanate from that.. B] Susan ends up either dead or fully turned.. Obvious one, little Maggie is never conceived.. So for starters Harry then becomes the youngest in Eb's line to be sacrificed and Harry has no way to reverse the generational spell because he has no youngest Red Court Vampire to kill.. The Red Court stays fully in power, thus the Fomor are held in check... Or are they? Harry neither becomes Winter Knight nor Warden of Demonreach.. Harry doesn't attempt suicide and have his soul walk about. The Weapons in the Vault cannot be retrieved by Harry. The Battle of Chicago is lost and the Titian cannot be stopped... There is a lot more but you get the point..
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Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.
Do you have a source or cite for that?
Because while Jim told us happens "at the end of Grave Peril," the details of what that choice is (and how close to "the end" is close-enough to count) are oft-debated; but that one looks frankly-improbable.
Here's the only WoJ I know of:
Jim: It’s going to be a different character because it’s going to be Dresden as he would have been if he made one choice differently, and the fallout from that effect on his life...
In this case it will be the big decision at the end of Grave Peril.
Exactly which decision is "the big decision" has AFAIK never been disclosed. As I say, I'm happy to be shown to be mistaken, if you've got a WoJ citation!
Why do I find your "Harry absorbs the ghosts' power" proposal so improbable? Because that would be Harry performing a mini-Darkhallow; just pulling the concept and the methods out of his hat (a hat, let it be noted, that Harry does not wear!) in the spur of the moment (and getting it right!) based on essentially zero experience with necromancy. Later, we see how a pile of very-experienced professional necromancers hadn't been able to figure it out, all vying for the lost Word of Kemmler. Harry is already too much of a Special Snowflake character; if he was also out-necromancing the professional necromancers, I'd find that far too OTT (just doing a mass-summons that way is already kind of a Big Deal).
My own main theory is that "the choice" was when Harry decided to let Susan walk away, at the very end of the book. He made that choice out of selfless love for Susan, and as we've seen Love is a Big Freaking Deal in the Dresdenverse. Had he instead convinced her to say -- applied emotional pressure or coercion -- out of his own selfishness and fear, the outcome could have been very different indeed.
My secondary theory is much darker... when Harry faced-off against Bianca, she offered him a choice: to let her have Susan (already half-turned) as "recompense" for how Harry "took away" her own preferred pet, and Bianca would consider the matter settled. Maybe Mirror!Harry accepted that choice. I don't like it as well, but that's my emotional reaction; IMO there's several ancillary details that line up very nicely, almost looking like Jim intentionally wrote-in foreshadowing elements.
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If we consider Harry as a decent person even in the Mirror universe and makes a decision that, in effect, is decent (but questionable--ie. Molly helping her friends), then maybe something subtle becomes much more---adding up to him taking up the coin of Lashiel.
I'm most curious about how we'll find him in Mirror Mirror. Is he under the radar or out and hello on wheels, so to speak.
B
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If we consider Harry as a decent person even in the Mirror universe and makes a decision that, in effect, is decent (but questionable--ie. Molly helping her friends), then maybe something subtle becomes much more---adding up to him taking up the coin of Lashiel.
I'm most curious about how we'll find him in Mirror Mirror. Is he under the radar or out and hello on wheels, so to speak.
Mirror!Harry is not a decent person any longer, no; he has gone full-on villain. Not sure if he's just gone overboard on the "fighting the good fight" theme, embracing "acceptable losses" in collateral damage, or if he's actually working towards objectively bad ends.
I'm pretty sure there is WoJ specifying that one of Mirror!Harry's closest allies is (brace yourself) ... Mavra. And he has discovered how to contact/summon other Alt!Harry's from other universes, and has been substituting them in for himself, when he's deeply trapped... letting those Harry's die in his place.
His foes keep thinking they've "killed Harry Dresden" because they have... just not their Harry Dresden, the one native to their own universe, who keeps slipping out the side door while the summoned Harry dies.
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Mirror!Harry is not a decent person any longer, no; he has gone full-on villain. Not sure if he's just gone overboard on the "fighting the good fight" theme, embracing "acceptable losses" in collateral damage, or if he's actually working towards objectively bad ends.
Do we know that for sure, or assume that? When you consider the original Trek story which supposedly this is the inspiration for Jim's story, we see what we think is "evil Jim Kirk" verses the good Kirk of our world.. However taken in the context of his universe, "evil Kirk" really isn't at all, because everyone with the exception of the Spock of that parallel universe is like that. In other words, "evil Kirk" is the norm for his world and because he is every bit as clever and resourceful as our Kirk he has used the tools and morals of his world to get to the top. We and our Kirk may have seen him as evil but who knows, our Kirk may have screwed up big time by telling that Spock to assassinate the "evil Kirk" when he returns and change their universe. He also added that this Spock had the same values as his Spock of his universe... Maybe, or because both Spocks had logic in common Kirk just made the assumption that their values were the same. When you think of it, it was logical for the other universe Spock to want the Captain Kirk of his universe back to set things right again... In other words our Harry may see that Harry as evil, but he will have to be seen in the context of the world that he lives in.. In the "evil Harry's" world, Murphy may be a corrupt cop with no morals at all and Molly might be entering a convent to become a nun! Then what? If our Harry screws with those norms, he may have screwed up more than he fixes in doing that.. Which I might add maybe the point of the story and why time travel is one of the forbidden Laws of Magic.
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@g33k,
While I may have misremembered (I can't find the specific WOJ), I don't think it's improbable that Harry would have been able to do a mini-Darkhallow. I think that Harry's been tempted to do something like that several times from the very beginning. I'll add a description of the very first time that this has happened in the end of Storm Front below here. For context, Harry has just driven up to Victor's house and he's thinking about his past brush with Dark Magic, the suspicions he's gotten from the White Council, and how slighted he feels.
[Harry] could kill the Shadowman, now, before he knew I was here. I could call down fury and flame on the house and kill everyone in it, not leave one stone upon another. I could reach out and embrace the dark energy he had gathered in this place, draw it in and use it for whatever I wanted, and the consequences be damned.
When I look at the part that I italicized for emphasis, Harry is pretty clearly thinking about a Darkhallow-type action. While he isn't discussing absorbing the power of ghosts permanently, he is pretty clearly discussing using the dark emotional energy to power a destructive spell. Harry has also made it clear at other points in the series that doing things like this affects the practitioner. I think that this is what evil Harry did in the end of Grave Peril. Evil Harry absorbed the emotional energy of Bianca's building then lashed out at Bianca with it. Our Harry summoned ghosts then pointed them at Bianca. My memory isn't perfect though so I might have messed something up.
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When I look at the part that I italicized for emphasis, Harry is pretty clearly thinking about a Darkhallow-type action. While he isn't discussing absorbing the power of ghosts permanently, he is pretty clearly discussing using the dark emotional energy to power a destructive spell. Harry has also made it clear at other points in the series that doing things like this affects the practitioner. I think that this is what evil Harry did in the end of Grave Peril. Evil Harry absorbed the emotional energy of Bianca's building then lashed out at Bianca with it. Our Harry summoned ghosts then pointed them at Bianca. My memory isn't perfect though so I might have messed something up.
I believe you got it right as far as I remember and what I thought reading that passage in Grave Peril. Yes, Harry did summon and point the ghosts at Bianca, however doing more than that wasn't needed because the ghosts were Bianca's victims and they wanted revenge.
Harry did have dark thoughts when he drove up to Victor's house, using dark magic would have been the easiest way to deal with it.
But then possibly it was his mother's spirit intervened, he felt pressure on the pendent she had left for him and felt a slim hand on his, then he thought again..
page 278 Storm Front
I took deep breaths, struggling to see clear of the anger, the hate, the deep lust that burned within me for vengeance and
retribution, that wasn't what magic was for.
Harry has usually thought things through in that manner, even in Changes when he thinks of the three options open to him to save little Maggie, accepting the coin, Darkhallow, or Winter Knight, he picks the least bad of the bad options.
While I may have misremembered (I can't find the specific WOJ), I don't think it's improbable that Harry would have been able to do a mini-Darkhallow. I think that Harry's been tempted to do something like that several times from the very beginning. I'll add a description of the very first time that this has happened in the end of Storm Front below here. For context, Harry has just driven up to Victor's house and he's thinking about his past brush with Dark Magic, the suspicions he's gotten from the White Council, and how slighted he feels.
Except until he met Cowl and got and read Kemmler's book, I don't think while he might have known what Darkhallow was, I don't think he had much of an idea of how to do it.
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I think that the Darkhallow was similar to normal energy absorption but scaled up drastically and improved somehow. We've seen Harry do energy absorption a lot including the fight in the aquarium in Small Favor. Based on that fight, the typical way to do it has limits because it literally raised Harry's body temperature. The Darkhallow must have some type of containment mechanism to handle the extra energy. Maybe it's a combination of the ascension spell in "Welcome to the Jungle" along with the normal energy absorption?
Either way, I suspect that what Harry was tempted to do in Storm Front, and what Evil Harry did in Grave Peril, would be a scaled down version of the Darkhallow. It would have just been sucking the ambient emotional energy of a dark place to do destructive things. That would have in turn affected Harry in a bunch of different ways.
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Do we know that for sure, or assume that? ...
We don't exactly know how far Mirror!Harry has stepped over that line. WE do know he's a much darker character than Prime!Harry.
WoJ has stated he's allied with Mavra, and has taken (when cornered) to summoning Alt!Harry's to die in his place; that looks like pretty far over the line, to me.
... When you consider the original Trek story which supposedly this is the inspiration for Jim's story, we see what we think is "evil Jim Kirk" verses the good Kirk of our world.. However taken in the context of his universe, "evil Kirk" really isn't at all ...
I'm not much for moral relativism.
Sure, some things are relative. But some other things are outright evil, and not relative at all. Mirror!Kirk is evil.
Now, "it's not his fault" & all that -- he's evil because he was raised in that setting, where kindness was seen as weakness (& exploited as such). But being a victim of evil doesn't mean he didn't become evil as a nearly-inevitable result of being informed by that setting. It's exactly similar to how child-abuse is always evil, even when we learn that the abuser turned out that way because they themselves were abused as a child.
... because everyone with the exception of the Spock of that parallel universe is like that ...
I always suspected that Spock mirrored most Vulcans: being ruthlessly logical is the logical Vulcan consequence of being embedded in (literally) an Evil Empire. But the Mirror!Vulcan history was presumably similar to the Prime!Vulcan history (i.e. driven by tradition & logic) up until Vulcan/Terran "first contact," and they adapted (in their logical way) to ruthlessly match the the circumstances they found themselves in.
... In the "evil Harry's" world, Murphy may be a corrupt cop with no morals at all and Molly might be entering a convent to become a nun! Then what? ...
Remember, though: there was no alt!universe or branching up until Harry's "choice" at the end of Grave Peril. There was only a single timeline up until that divergence. The rest of the universe isn't just up for grabs, with random alterations; the changes rippled outward, as alternative consequences resulting from Harry's alternative choice.
I don't think we have any reason to think Murphy would have become corrupt / immoral. Defeated, maybe; hopeless, and "just getting by," rather than crusading for what's right. What is Murphy (and SI) like, without having been able to rely upon Dresden? Less clued-in, less-successful; but what else?
This, I think, is going to be the core of Mirror,Mirror: exploring the consequences of Harry's choice. Even more than the ST:TOS episode Mirror,Mirror, I think Jim's going to write an alt for Harry's own life: this is going to be Dresden's It's a Wonderful Life (1946 with Jimmy Stewart). But also, of course, more of Jim's primary job: tormenting Harry.
You ask after Molly, and I think it's pertinent. In fact, I think we'll be revisiting most/all of Harry!Prime's "Scooby Gang" (Michael & Thomas & Butters & Bob & the Alphas &c), and the followups/consequences of his prior Casefiles & how Mirror!Harry handled them differently from how Prime!Harry did. We may even see the return of Little Chicago! ;D I'm unclear about the particulars of any of these, of course... it depends how Jim writes the alt!timeline. Speculating specifically about Molly (and Michael), though: Harry has become a serial murderer & Blampire-ally; I don't think Michael is his friend, or ally, or trusts him in any way. So, Molly hasn't idolized him: she hasn't seen him as a mysterious badass, fighting monsters (alongside the father she adored). Presumably, Mirror!Molly began developing powers just as Prime!Molly did; but without Harry's example perhaps she turned more towards her parents & they helped her tamp them down? But I suspect empowered Molly is too narratively-useful to Jim, so we'll see some sort of Magical Molly (unless we learn that she got executed by the Wardens -- very much a torment-for-Harry element!).
I suspect Prime!Molly was guided by Lea or Mab toward her Black Magic path, specifically to use Molly to entangle Dresden; but without the Michael/Harry alliance that entanglement wouldn't happen; so no Winter shoving Molly down the left-hand-path.
In fact... I suspect Harry's "choice" in GP was basically one made from being scared, hopeless. From giving up, instead of fighting-against-all-odds. I'm not at all sure Mirror!Mab would even want this weaker Mirror!Harry as WK.
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I think that the Darkhallow was similar to normal energy absorption but scaled up drastically and improved somehow. We've seen Harry do energy absorption a lot including the fight in the aquarium in Small Favor. Based on that fight, the typical way to do it has limits because it literally raised Harry's body temperature. The Darkhallow must have some type of containment mechanism to handle the extra energy. Maybe it's a combination of the ascension spell in "Welcome to the Jungle" along with the normal energy absorption? ...
I'm almost certain I recall a WoJ saying that the hag's rite in "WttJ" was a smaller and/or more-primitive spell, but largely along the same lines as Kemmler's "Darkhallow" rite.
The Darkhallow was specifically ghost-eating. It used necromantic methods unknown to (pre-Word of Kemmler) Harry: if Harry could just siphon ghosts to power-up whenever he wanted, those foes (such as Agatha Hagglethorn & the Nightmare) would have been trivially handled.
The other examples are stuff Harry already knows about, drawing upon raw "magical energy" from the environment, as he often does for magic.
In Storm Front, he had found a huge supply of magic summoned by Victor Sells, but realized it was "tainted" -- dark, violent, corrupt -- because of how it was raised. This ambient magic was influencing him to act in dark, violent, corrupt ways; but he was able to resist.
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Sure, some things are relative. But some other things are outright evil, and not relative at all. Mirror!Kirk is evil.
But so was EVERYONE else in that universe, by our standards! By their standards our universe is populated by weak fools. As for the two Spocks, they had Vulcan logic in common, it was logical to restore what was natural for for universes.. And for the record, deciding what is evil and what isn't is a moral judgement.
I don't think we have any reason to think Murphy would have become corrupt / immoral. Defeated, maybe; hopeless, and "just getting by," rather than crusading for what's right. What is Murphy (and SI) like, without having been able to rely upon Dresden? Less clued-in, less-successful; but what else?
And why would you think that? Unless Murphy is the Spock of the story, hell yeah she could be corrupt simply because she will be a product of and reflect the values of the universe she is living in. Heck she still could be the Spock of the story and be totally corrupt.. That also might be acceptable in the universe she is living in. Actually might make for a much better story that evil Harry, many already feel that Harry dances on that tightrope anyway.. However many cannot conceive of a corrupt Murphy, but a Chicago cop? Especially in a certain era? Not a stretch at all, and think of the shock that would be to Harry, first to see her alive again, second to realize she is a corrupt cop on the take..
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... And for the record, deciding what is evil and what isn't is a moral judgement.
For the record... I'm OK with that!
There's some things that are merely "cultural values" and (despite being dearly-held beliefs about what's right & wrong) amount to "opinions." But other things (murder, child abuse, etc) I hold to be "evils" -- yes, evils in an absolute sense -- and reject "moral relativism" in such cases.
If such evils are "OK" in some other culture, I hold that entire culture to be evil (at least in those regards).
I am entirely comfortable making that moral judgement.
Blampires are evil, in that absolute sense. Unless Mirror!Harry is allying with Mavra specifically to best fight off some even-greater evil, then Mirror!Harry is being evil, too. Mirror!Harry summoning other-universe Alt!Harry's to die in his place absolutely is evil: even if he says he's doing it to "fight evil better," he cannot know what evils those other Harry's were facing, that he thereby allows to run amok in those other universes. That's evil.
... And why would you think that? Unless Murphy is the Spock of the story, hell yeah she could be corrupt simply because she will be a product of and reflect the values of the universe she is living in ...
I think that because it's more or less the same universe.
It had been a single timeline, up until the GP "choice;" that was where they diverged, where the alternative timelines branched apart; Mirror!Murphy didn't grow up any differently from our Murphy. For Murphy to be "corrupt" in Mirror Mirror, she'd have to have turned that way since the time of GP. I don't think that's possible for her (unless some mindbender broke her mind).
( The ST mirrorverse, in contrast, is taken to have diverged centuries -- even millenia -- beforehand (before humans first reached space):
Philippa Georgiou also claimed that Terrans had abolished compassionate ideologies "millennia ago" as of the 2250s.
-- https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Mirror_universe#History
So, "compassion" was "abolished" at least back as far back as the high medieval era (and the histories had certainly differed longer than that, for competing ideologies to have been warring for (presumably) a long time before that). )
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Assuming Jim hasn't changed his mind, he's told us what the big choice was. It's at the end of Grave Peril when Harry goes to save Susan. Our Harry summons a bunch of vengeful ghosts to kill the vampires when he could have absorbed their power and lashed out. The other Harry does the later.
He said the divergence was late in GP. There's still room for it to be a few possibilities. One of the big possibilities is !Harry might have taken Bianca's coward's bargain, to abandon Susan and walk free.
Depending how far back you stretch late in Grave Peril, it could also be a few other things. There was a moment relatively late in the book when Thomas came to Harry to return Amoracchius after he recovered it from the earlier fighting and propose teaming up to rescue Susan and Justine, where Michael wanted to kill him without even seeing what was in the box because vampires are all bad. If Harry hadn't gone to bat for hearing Thomas out at that point? Well, that could start a pretty dark timeline.
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It had been a single timeline, up until the GP "choice;" that was where they diverged, where the alternative timelines branched apart; Mirror!Murphy didn't grow up any differently from our Murphy. For Murphy to be "corrupt" in Mirror Mirror, she'd have to have turned that way since the time of GP. I don't think that's possible for her (unless some mindbender broke her mind).
Really? No, a choice is like a pebble thrown into a still pond, it creates ripples.. Everything is altered.
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Mirror!Harry is not a decent person any longer, no; he has gone full-on villain. Not sure if he's just gone overboard on the "fighting the good fight" theme, embracing "acceptable losses" in collateral damage
This has been my pet hypothesis. Nicodemus argues in these terms. His rationalization for all the murder and mayhem he causes is that it is in pursuit of a much greater good. Harry could, one death at a time, rationalize his way down that road. Maybe not as far as Nic, but to the point where he's a lot less careful about how he uses his magic to achieve his goals, and shuts down the part of himself that would normally feel immense guilt over collateral damage.
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This has been my pet hypothesis. Nicodemus argues in these terms. His rationalization for all the murder and mayhem he causes is that it is in pursuit of a much greater good. Harry could, one death at a time, rationalize his way down that road. Maybe not as far as Nic, but to the point where he's a lot less careful about how he uses his magic to achieve his goals, and shuts down the part of himself that would normally feel immense guilt over collateral damage.
Yeah, but I doubt that that is the choice since then you'd think it would be more along the lines of deciding to accept the coin or not to ultimately reject the temptation of Lasciel's Shadow, both of which happen in a later book. No, if it's the decision he made at the end of Grave Peril, then there were several that could have sent things going in another direction... It could also be that as a person Harry isn't any different than the Harry we know and love, but because he made the wrong choice he has to walk a whole different path that ruins what our Harry has been trying to do.. Then it's possible that what Uriel told him in Changes about straying from the path and why, as in out of love does matter.. This could be yet another object lesson that Uriel is trying to teach Harry.. Could be that Mirrormirror turns out to be more "It's A Wonderful Life," than a classic Star Trek remake.
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Really? No, a choice is like a pebble thrown into a still pond, it creates ripples.. Everything is altered.
A change in a moment only ripples forward in time, though.
Harry's choice in GP can't have touched Murphy's childhood, upbringing, young adulthood, etc.
She was a truly-good person going into GP; only one Murphy.
There is potential for change by the end of it, Mirror!Murphy's life begins to diverge (as do others).
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A change in a moment only ripples forward in time, though.
Harry's choice in GP can't have touched Murphy's childhood, upbringing, young adulthood, etc.
She was a truly-good person going into GP; only one Murphy.
There is potential for change by the end of it, Mirror!Murphy's life begins to diverge (as do others).
A stone tossed in a lake sends out ripples in all directions.. And as far as that goes, Murphy and Harry's lives touched from The
Restoration of Faith.. However if Harry's choice changes the world, it changes everything around him as well, not just him. That's why time travel is so dangerous.
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A stone tossed in a lake sends out ripples in all directions..
Your simile is misleading; time has flow, an inherent direction. It is not a placid lake amenable to "ripples in all directions."
An event has consequences moving forward in time. Causality does not go backwards (until you time-travel backwards -- but then only forward again, from whatever point you insert yourself).
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Your simile is misleading; time has flow, an inherent direction. It is not a placid lake amenable to "ripples in all directions."
An event has consequences moving forward in time. Causality does not go backwards (until you time-travel backwards -- but then only forward again, from whatever point you insert yourself).
You misunderstand.. Time has flow, but if Harry is different from the Harry we know because of a poor choice, everyone he touches also is changed because of the way he affects them and what has happened because of his choice. The Murphy you know has been shaped by the Harry we know, she made her own choices because of him... If it is a different Harry, we won't see the same Murphy.. Now Michael, who is shaped by his devotion to God and being a Holy Knight would be perhaps constant, because his choices are shaped more by faith than Harry.
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You misunderstand.. Time has flow, but if Harry is different from the Harry we know because of a poor choice, everyone he touches also is changed because of the way he affects them and what has happened because of his choice. The Murphy you know has been shaped by the Harry we know, she made her own choices because of him... If it is a different Harry, we won't see the same Murphy.. Now Michael, who is shaped by his devotion to God and being a Holy Knight would be perhaps constant, because his choices are shaped more by faith than Harry.
Up until the moment of "the choice" in GP (and we don't know what that was) was identical.
Same people, same events, same impacts of the events upon the people.
SAME.
That includes Murphy being the same Murphy -- a strong person, a good cop, not corrupt.
Ripples forward in time, thereafter... yep, that's the entire premise!
Impacts on Murphy, undoubtedly.
But enough to turn Mirror!Murphy into a corrupt cop? I don't think so.
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Ripples forward in time, thereafter... yep, that's the entire premise!
Impacts on Murphy, undoubtedly.
But enough to turn Mirror!Murphy into a corrupt cop? I don't think so.
But maybe enough that Murphy ends up dead earlier than in the canon timeline. In canon, Murphy was better equipped to deal with the supernatural threats in Chicago because Harry brought her fully in, shared with her knowledge about the supernatural world and what was happening, protected her as best as he could and as she would allow, etc. while she did her job. Without Harry's help or the same level of protection, is she able to do her job and stay alive as long as she did in canon?
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But maybe enough that Murphy ends up dead earlier than in the canon timeline. In canon, Murphy was better equipped to deal with the supernatural threats in Chicago because Harry brought her fully in, shared with her knowledge about the supernatural world and what was happening, protected her as best as he could and as she would allow, etc. while she did her job. Without Harry's help or the same level of protection, is she able to do her job and stay alive as long as she did in canon?
Yup, consider how she was in both Storm Front and Fool Moon, you could argue she was a good cop, but she was also quick to jump to conclusions and as a result got people killed as happened in Fool Moon! Depending on her attitude, she may have developed more of a closed mind, stayed a cop, but to the determent of the world around her..
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But maybe enough that Murphy ends up dead earlier than in the canon timeline. In canon, Murphy was better equipped to deal with the supernatural threats in Chicago because Harry brought her fully in, shared with her knowledge about the supernatural world and what was happening, protected her as best as he could and as she would allow, etc. while she did her job. Without Harry's help or the same level of protection, is she able to do her job and stay alive as long as she did in canon?
I am relatively-confident Mirror!Murphy will be alive; simply because of the vast opportunities it gives Jim to further torture Harry.
Early-books Harry was still giving Murphy lots of stay-alive info (albeit limited/incomplete), and I expect that didn't stop completely when he made the Choice. Remember that Murphy got so deeply into the supernatural because of Harry. Without Harry there, opening the doors he opened, Murphy's likely to have had shallower, less-dangerous encounters.
Alternatively, maybe Mirror!Murphy teamed up with Michael, who -- while (mostly) not as clued-in as Harry -- had much more info than Murphy!
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I am relatively-confident Mirror!Murphy will be alive; simply because of the vast opportunities it gives Jim to further torture Harry.
Early-books Harry was still giving Murphy lots of stay-alive info (albeit limited/incomplete), and I expect that didn't stop completely when he made the Choice. Remember that Murphy got so deeply into the supernatural because of Harry. Without Harry there, opening the doors he opened, Murphy's likely to have had shallower, less-dangerous encounters.
Alternatively, maybe Mirror!Murphy teamed up with Michael, who -- while (mostly) not as clued-in as Harry -- had much more info than Murphy!
If torturing Harry is the point, obviously Murphy will be happy and safe, and be absolutely murderously angry when she sees Harry.
So yes, teaming up with the Knights of the Cross to actually deal with supernatural threats Mirror!Harry doesn't deal with properly, cleaning up his mess... that would sound just the kind of torturous that Harry needs to see. His Choices have Consequences, and maybe even the RIGHT choice in GP has a BAD influence on someone he loved.
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Early-books Harry was still giving Murphy lots of stay-alive info (albeit limited/incomplete), and I expect that didn't stop completely when he made the Choice. Remember that Murphy got so deeply into the supernatural because of Harry. Without Harry there, opening the doors he opened, Murphy's likely to have had shallower, less-dangerous encounters.
Alternatively, maybe Mirror!Murphy teamed up with Michael, who -- while (mostly) not as clued-in as Harry -- had much more info than Murphy!
Or closed minded, and why would she team up with Michael? I doubt without Harry she would have even known Micheal. You forget even in this timeline she got a Holy Sword broken because she felt her judgement was better than God's Judgement when it came to Nic.
For the record? If you really want to torture Harry, have Murphy act like he never existed, and treat him that way as well with a totally closed mind towards the supernatural... Oh and maybe still married to one of her husbands... ::)
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... and why would she team up with Michael? I doubt without Harry she would have even known Micheal ...
You forget: Michael has some extra guidance! ;D
Without Harry's assistance, SI & Murphy will have needed some extra help... help that Michael is well-situated to provide! Obviously, that's no guarantee Jim will have written it that way; but it'd be a nice exemplar of God's Providence, with Michael's multiversal presence situated to support Murphy (or in a different Alt!Universe, Morty?) when that alt!Harry does not.
... For the record? If you really want to torture Harry, have Murphy act like he never existed, and treat him that way as well with a totally closed mind towards the supernatural...
Murphy 1st met Harry in the Restoration of Faith short, earlier even than Storm Front.
He was a regular consultant for SI, for the first few novels (the earliest such (that we see onscreen) he had already been consulting with them for a while).
All of that is the same, between the "prime" and "Mirror" universes.
The entirety of the setting & character-development isn't subject to revision -- only from GP's "choice" onwards.
I don't see any way for Mirror!Murphy to have buried her head in the sand and deny the supernatural; and Harry will *very* much be on Mirror!Murphy's radar -- as a Bad Guy(tm)!
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You forget: Michael has some extra guidance! ;D
Without Harry's assistance, SI & Murphy will have needed some extra help... help that Michael is well-situated to provide! Obviously, that's no guarantee Jim will have written it that way; but it'd be a nice exemplar of God's Providence, with Michael's multiversal presence situated to support Murphy (or in a different Alt!Universe, Morty?) when that alt!Harry does not.
Unless Murphy is closed minded about the supernatural, there is no guarantee that she'd be receptive to a so called "Holy Knight."
I don't see any way for Mirror!Murphy to have buried her head in the sand and deny the supernatural; and Harry will *very* much be on Mirror!Murphy's radar -- as a Bad Guy(tm)!
Actually you make my point very well.. Murphy sees things in black and white, if all she sees is an "evil Harry" how do you think she will see the supernatural in general? Also remember how quickly she was to jump to conclusions in the first couple of books because she did not understand Harry's world at all.
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... there is no guarantee that she'd be receptive to a so called "Holy Knight."
Michael doesn't often introduce himself as a "Holy Knight," though: he just steps up to help.
And Murphy actually has amazingly-good "people-sense."
It'd make good sense in both Doylist & Watsonian terms.
If Michael is guided to aid her in time of need -- and I allege that (in an Evil!Harry universe) this is likely to happen -- Murphy will take the help, and (cautiously) begin trusting Michael, as he becomes a good source of supernatural intel & an ally in protecting Chicago.
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Michael doesn't often introduce himself as a "Holy Knight," though: he just steps up to help.
And Murphy actually has amazingly-good "people-sense."
It'd make good sense in both Doylist & Watsonian terms.
If Michael is guided to aid her in time of need -- and I allege that (in an Evil!Harry universe) this is likely to happen -- Murphy will take the help, and (cautiously) begin trusting Michael, as he becomes a good source of supernatural intel & an ally in protecting Chicago.
Will she? Or will she take the attitude that whatever it is, it is a law enforcement issue so some civilian carpenter can butt out?
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Will she? Or will she take the attitude that whatever it is, it is a law enforcement issue so some civilian carpenter can butt out?
Remember: at the point of divergence, it's the exact same Murphy, with the exact same attitudes. So yes, there may be some suspicion/distrust, just as she wasn't yet to the point of trusting Harry. Also remember: Murphy doesn't need to "call Michael for help" in order for Michael to show up via his own guidance.
But she'll be just as in-need of assistance from Michael as she was from Harry. How many times will Michael need to selflessly risk himself to pull her (and other SI) out of danger, before she trusts him ... at least a little bit?
Michael's fundamental goodness is something that will speak to Murphy; and his free and ready faith (which Harry *never* displays) will do so too.
= = =
In the end, of course, it will depend 100% on how Jim writes it; the whole point may be moot; maybe one or both of them die in the stories between GP & MM...
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Remember: at the point of divergence, it's the exact same Murphy, with the exact same attitudes. So yes, there may be some suspicion/distrust, just as she wasn't yet to the point of trusting Harry. Also remember: Murphy doesn't need to "call Michael for help" in order for Michael to show up via his own guidance.
You are assuming that nothing around Harry changes, that all the people around him remain the same.. That's the mistake I think, because Harry's choice and his change in this other universe doesn't happen in a vacuum.
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You are assuming that nothing around Harry changes, that all the people around him remain the same.. That's the mistake I think, because Harry's choice and his change in this other universe doesn't happen in a vacuum.
No, I agree: things around Harry will begin changing, from the moment of "the Choice." Harry changes, so what Harry does changes -- how he acts, how he reacts -- and everyone in his orbit will in turn be changed.
But Michael's northstar isn't Harry; it never was. He'll be among the less-changed (at least for the first few books); I don't expect any of Harry's changes will affect Michael's faith, or status as a Knight, or his Divine Guidance to help others in need.
And because there is a confluence in Chicago -- all of the same "dark powers" that Harry noted are still coming to bear, there -- I think Michael will more-often be Guided to Murphy's aid, than he originally was in the first few books.
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And because there is a confluence in Chicago -- all of the same "dark powers" that Harry noted are still coming to bear, there -- I think Michael will more-often be Guided to Murphy's aid, than he originally was in the first few books.
Or not, Michael wasn't guided to her aid in the first few books.. I go back to the original assumption that everyone seems to have, and since I don't keep up with them I don't keep up very well with WOJs, is the other Harry is an evil counter point to our Harry.. If nothing if changed because of that, shrug of shoulders, Harry in the other universe is evil.. However I don't think so.. If one goes by "It's a Wonderful Life," all matter of things go wrong because our hero was never born... One prime example is at the age of 10 he saved his brother, who grew up to in the Medal of Honor because he saved hundreds of men on board a ship if I remember correctly... If he hadn't been saved, then not just he would have died, but the hundreds that he saved would have died, and maybe hundreds more children who would have done great things were never born.... It goes on and on like that.. It isn't about the now evil Harry, it's about the wrong choice that was made that really screws things up in both timelines.
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Or not, Michael wasn't guided to her aid in the first few books...
No, of course not! It's the Dresden Files, not the "Carpenter Files;" the Scooby Gang forms around Harry.
But in an Alt!Verse -- where Alt!Harry isn't a suitable nucleus for Scoobies -- Michael looks like he might be a more-active part of the Chicago scene. "God will provide..." and in lieu of Harry, Michael looks like a damned-good candidate!
... I go back to the original assumption that everyone seems to have, and since I don't keep up with them I don't keep up very well with WOJs, is the other Harry is an evil counter point to our Harry.. If nothing if changed because of that, shrug of shoulders, Harry in the other universe is evil.. However I don't think so ...
The "evil Harry" idea comes from the older WoJ's; new ones are much less readily available/searchable, in that nobody AFAIK has taken the time to transcribe interview/etc videos... or even collect them.
From 2016:
When are we going to see Mavra again?
Um… 19? *pondering* Wait, I’m sorry we’ll definitely see her in Mirror Mirror. She’s a fast ally of Dresden’s in Mirror Mirror.
-- https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-vampires/
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At this point we have put in so many ideas of our own in anticipation that I think there will be a lot of disappointment when it finally comes out.
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At this point we have put in so many ideas of our own in anticipation that I think there will be a lot of disappointment when it finally comes out.
<shrugs> Odd theories & alternatives are fine!
"Why, sometimes I've believed six impossible things before breakfast!" -- the White Queen
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<shrugs> Odd theories & alternatives are fine!
"Why, sometimes I've believed six impossible things before breakfast!" -- the White Queen
No, actually that was Alice... ::)
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At this point we have put in so many ideas of our own in anticipation that I think there will be a lot of disappointment when it finally comes out.
The author has been talking about mirror mirror for a long time. I dare say that book has been discussed more pre-writing than any other book he has written. There is a danger of the book not living up to our expectations. That being said, theories are fun!
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No, actually that was Alice... ::)
:o
No, actually that was the White Queen.
(I just re-read the passage to confirm; I can quote the full context, or link you an online copy, if desired)
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:o
No, actually that was the White Queen.
(I just re-read the passage to confirm; I can quote the full context, or link you an online copy, if desired)
You are right, I was thinking of the movie where it is Alice who says it, but the passage is confusing in the book..