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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: EBRIEN on February 22, 2025, 03:31:48 PM
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Just a very tiny detail near the end of the book...minuscule.
When Lara is about to have her way with Lord Raith, she is described as Wintry.
Like I said---Minuscule, but telling.
Anyhow--Have a great weekend!
Cheers and best to all---B
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Nice find. Do you think she will one day replace Mab or the Winter Lady?
I think she is more suited to be Mab's replacement. The whole Winter Lady virgin thing would not be so nice for Lara.
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I expect a family pattern to be acknowledged in 12 Months. Maggie Sr. is the consort of (marries?) the head of the White Court. Her son Harry is engaged to marry the successor head of the White Court, Lara.
That also suggests a hidden truth. Harry is the Winter Court's White Knight. Did Maggie Sr. also have as of yet unknown status in the Winter Court, or was she otherwise beholden to the Winter Court via Lea like Harry? And is Harry's betrothal Mab's second attempt to use one of her vassals to ally with the White Court? Or maybe used for some more devious machination? Mab quickly deciding to marry Harry off to ally with the White Court makes me think Mab's up to something else or at least some additional else - maybe she needs a second spy/provocateur within the White Court because of suspicions that the White Court may have an agenda adverse to Mab or even the Summer Court. I have no idea or even a WAG but put me down as suspicious, waiting for another shoe or two to drop.
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Nice find. Do you think she will one day replace Mab or the Winter Lady?
I think she is more suited to be Mab's replacement. The whole Winter Lady virgin thing would not be so nice for Lara.
Good question. I mean...if Lara becomes either, who leads the White Court? Thomas? Agree, Queen is a much better fit than Lady. I think Mab recognizes like-minded individuals. Lara is calculating like Mab.
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I expect a family pattern to be acknowledged in 12 Months. Maggie Sr. is the consort of (marries?) the head of the White Court. Her son Harry is engaged to marry the successor head of the White Court, Lara.
That also suggests a hidden truth. Harry is the Winter Court's White Knight. Did Maggie Sr. also have as of yet unknown status in the Winter Court, or was she otherwise beholden to the Winter Court via Lea like Harry? And is Harry's betrothal Mab's second attempt to use one of her vassals to ally with the White Court? Or maybe used for some more devious machination? Mab quickly deciding to marry Harry off to ally with the White Court makes me think Mab's up to something else or at least some additional else - maybe she needs a second spy/provocateur within the White Court because of suspicions that the White Court may have an agenda adverse to Mab or even the Summer Court. I have no idea or even a WAG but put me down as suspicious, waiting for another shoe or two to drop.
I'm curious how long Lord Raith's Outsider magic immunity continues once Harry digs into the Raith household and library of the arcane. His mind is probably close to gone at this point, but magically, he's probably still immune.
Perhaps Mab is tracing the Outside connection. ??? We shall see.
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I'm curious how long Lord Raith's Outsider magic immunity continues once Harry digs into the Raith household and library of the arcane. His mind is probably close to gone at this point, but magically, he's probably still immune.
Perhaps Mab is tracing the Outside connection. ??? We shall see.
That might be what Mab wants to get at, if anyone can get to the bottom of things it will be Harry.
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I'm curious how long Lord Raith's Outsider magic immunity continues once Harry digs into the Raith household and library of the arcane. His mind is probably close to gone at this point, but magically, he's probably still immune.
Perhaps Mab is tracing the Outside connection. ??? We shall see.
There's Papa Raith's immunity, Vitto's Outsider-summoning (that disabled dozens of potent Earthly minds),
and the fact that Justine seemingly got Nemfected from hanging around Lara (and thus, Raith's Outsider Library) ... once (they say) is bad luck; twice is a coincidence; three times is enemy action.
The Outsiders have deeply-infiltrated the Whampires.
Mab is tossing a Dresden Grenade into that bunker.
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There's Papa Raith's immunity, Vitto's Outsider-summoning (that disabled dozens of potent Earthly minds),
and the fact that Justine seemingly got Nemfected from hanging around Lara (and thus, Raith's Outsider Library) ... once (they say) is bad luck; twice is a coincidence; three times is enemy action.
The Outsiders have deeply-infiltrated the Whampires.
Mab is tossing a Dresden Grenade into that bunker.
I concur with this theory.. It fits with my theory that Justine had been infested from the beginning. Lord Raith knows full well who the half brother of Thomas is, he may even know what Harry is, so Justine infected thrown together with Thomas as a way to control him. Also knowing that Thomas and Harry will get together at some point so eventually a way to get at Harry. And as we saw at the end of Battleground it almost worked.
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There's Papa Raith's immunity, Vitto's Outsider-summoning (that disabled dozens of potent Earthly minds),
and the fact that Justine seemingly got Nemfected from hanging around Lara (and thus, Raith's Outsider Library) ... once (they say) is bad luck; twice is a coincidence; three times is enemy action.
The Outsiders have deeply-infiltrated the Whampires.
Have they? Or were the White Vampires always closely tied up with the Outsiders?
Remember that a favorite swear term among them is 'Empty Night'. IIRC, that's the title of the last book in the series, too. Harry and Elaine picked up 'stars and stones' from Justin, and IIRC Ebenezar at one point rebuked Harry for using it, too. Justin and Margaret were mixed up with the Court, too.
I wonder if the phages themselves are some kind of outsider.
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I concur with this theory.. It fits with my theory that Justine had been infested from the beginning. Lord Raith knows full well who the half brother of Thomas is, he may even know what Harry is, so Justine infected thrown together with Thomas as a way to control him. Also knowing that Thomas and Harry will get together at some point so eventually a way to get at Harry. And as we saw at the end of Battleground it almost worked.
My only problem with that idea is that it has a lot of moving parts that have to play out just right. Sort of like the theory that Martin wanted Harry and Susan to get together in Death Masks.
Yeah, LR, Lara, Nicodemus, Marcone, Mab, Martin, etc. are all chessmasters, but there are still limits to how far ahead they can calculate and how many moving parts they can juggle. If Justine has been nemfected all along, that would mean lots of opportunities for someone to detect it. Suppose a rival WV offs Thomas and claims Justine? Suppose some circumstance forced her to handle a Sword? If Harry is her target in LR's plot, suppose he happens to be with Rashid at some point when she's near him?
That's a lot of variables that he just can't control.
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My only problem with that idea is that it has a lot of moving parts that have to play out just right. Sort of like the theory that Martin wanted Harry and Susan to get together in Death Masks.
Yeah, LR, Lara, Nicodemus, Marcone, Mab, Martin, etc. are all chessmasters, but there are still limits to how far ahead they can calculate and how many moving parts they can juggle. If Justine has been nemfected all along, that would mean lots of opportunities for someone to detect it. Suppose a rival WV offs Thomas and claims Justine? Suppose some circumstance forced her to handle a Sword? If Harry is her target in LR's plot, suppose he happens to be with Rashid at some point when she's near him?
That's a lot of variables that he just can't control.
I think it very possible that Justine could go along neminfected and no one notice it. Why? Because like Voldermort, no one was even saying the name. Harry had to force a name, Nemesis, out of Titania and even Mother Summer and Mother Winter do not speak the name, they call it the "Enemy." So it lurks in the shadows unnoticed, even when he is well aware of Nemesis, Harry cannot spot that Justine is possessed by an Outsider until she nearly kills him to gain access to Demonreach. Don't you think it just a bit odd that Justine is "insane" and is set up to be the lover/kine for Thomas by Lord Raith and becomes "cured" because Thomas was feeding off of her emotions and this leveled things out? It just died away not to return when he wasn't feeding?
Here is a very telling point I think. Justine and Thomas had true love, once that happened he couldn't touch her unless she wore a rubber suit to protect him from being burned.. It wasn't until she had sex with another that that changed and then she could have sex once more with Thomas.. However if it was always that simple, why didn't she do it sooner? I mean she waits until the end of Ghost Story when Harry was thought to be dead!
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... he couldn't touch her unless she wore a rubber suit to protect him from being burned.. It wasn't until she had sex with another that that changed and then she could have sex once more with Thomas.. However if it was always that simple, why didn't she do it sooner? ...
This bothers me, too.
Not just with the Thomas/Justine: why TF is this (obvious) method not part of the toolkit that every whampire knows??!?
They use sex for feeding their Hunger... but also as a critical tool for political power.
They're used to thinking of sex, and sexual permutations, as tools.
They have zero expectations of sexual fidelity: each Whampire has multiple kine, and many kine get passed around amongst the Whamps; gifted, loaned, traded, &c.
They know of "sex outside of love" as the "magic key" to get past the "True Love" protections.
They should know "have willing, friendly sex to break TL protections" and then renew said protections (when they make love to their TL) as the way to move forward.
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They know of "sex outside of love" as the "magic key" to get past the "True Love" protections.
They should know "have willing, friendly sex to break TL protections" and then renew said protections (when they make love to their TL) as the way to move forward.
Yes, and supposedly Justine and Thomas had true love over several books and short stories because Thomas mentions it. So what gives? Oh here is another one that doesn't quite fit, unless I am not remembering it correctly, in Blood Rites Justine supposedly was willing to sacrifice herself to save Thomas, an act of true love, right? But because of his true love for her, Thomas stopped short of killing her in order to save himself.. So why didn't he just burn up?
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I concur with this theory.. It fits with my theory that Justine had been infested from the beginning. Lord Raith knows full well who the half brother of Thomas is, he may even know what Harry is, so Justine infected thrown together with Thomas as a way to control him. Also knowing that Thomas and Harry will get together at some point so eventually a way to get at Harry. And as we saw at the end of Battleground it almost worked.
According to Blood Rites, Lord Raith somehow didn't know who the half-brother of Thomas was until he spied them discussing it in his mansion. Otherwise he no doubt would have tried to kill Harry earlier.
This bothers me, too.
Not just with the Thomas/Justine: why TF is this (obvious) method not part of the toolkit that every whampire knows??!?
They use sex for feeding their Hunger... but also as a critical tool for political power.
They're used to thinking of sex, and sexual permutations, as tools.
They have zero expectations of sexual fidelity: each Whampire has multiple kine, and many kine get passed around amongst the Whamps; gifted, loaned, traded, &c.
They know of "sex outside of love" as the "magic key" to get past the "True Love" protections.
They should know "have willing, friendly sex to break TL protections" and then renew said protections (when they make love to their TL) as the way to move forward.
Remember, the White Court thought that Thomas was a freak for loving a human in the first place- kinda like how people would look at a man that married a cow.
Love is not, broadly speaking, a thing that the White Court do.
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... Remember, the White Court thought that Thomas was a freak for loving a human in the first place- kinda like how people would look at a man that married a cow.
Love is not, broadly speaking, a thing that the White Court do.
I don't know that "freak" is the right term (I only recall that term being the Whampire term for wizards).
Unusual, for sure!
But they know the phenomenon -- protection via Love -- well.
And they know how to bypass it, if they really need to get to someone protected: get one of their more-attractive Kine to seduce the protected victim; if needs be, they can apply their (non-contact) lust-enhancing mojo until the victim is "willing:" being in Love doesn't mean being immune to the Whamp-mojo of heightened arousal.
If you aren't being all emo & addicted to the tragedy of the thing, Justine's solution seems kind of obvious; particularly from the POV of "sex is a tool" Whampires.
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... my theory that Justine had been infested from the beginning ...
A small datum in favor of your theory: remember the end of the book where we met the oh-so-lovely Justine?
Didn't Thomas send Justine as a "gift" to Harry?
That was a horribly... objectifying thing to do; which seems unlikely if he was in love (or falling in love) with Justine! If he just wanted to "be nice to Harry," he could doubtless have arranged for any number of lovely kine in the Raith orbit, who'd willingly have given Harry the most erotic night of his life, just to curry a bit of extra favor with the Whampires.
What if Thomas actually didn't send her?
What if it was Nemesis, trying to get closer to Harry?
Or maybe he did do it... but only because of some subtle manipulation by Nemfected-Justine?
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... I think she is more suited to be Mab's replacement. The whole Winter Lady virgin thing would not be so nice for Lara.
The basic theory that Mab is considering en-Mantling Lara seems likely.
I think Mab has thoughts about which role would be better for Lara, but that -- being Mab -- she has specific plans for each of the Lady-Mantle and the Queen-Mantle going to Lara (depending on how things play out).
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The basic theory that Mab is considering en-Mantling Lara seems likely.
I think Mab has thoughts about which role would be better for Lara, but that -- being Mab -- she has specific plans for each of the Lady-Mantle and the Queen-Mantle going to Lara (depending on how things play out).
Actually I don't think so, for one thing, Mab cannot control Lara, and Lara is into controlling things as much as Mab and is as smart as well. So no, when you think about it Mab doesn't really want Lara as her Lady,replacement or most important of all, rival. She does have an obligation to honor, Lara wants an alliance with Winter, but Mab wants it on her terms.. What better way to throw a rock in the machinery than to order her Knight who will find a way of not doing what she orders, and thus doing exactly what she wants..
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Is it possible that Mab is Lara's mother? I don't believe Lara's mother has ever been mentioned. As noted elsewhere in this topic thread, there are times where wintry words and phrases are used to describe Lara, including by at least one of the Fae (Toot-Toot).
Being Lara's mother would also explain why Mab couldn't marry Lara. You know there was a reason for Butcher to insert that curious and awkward exchange into Battle Ground; wholly unnecessary other than to provide some clue or foreshadowing to the readers. What other reason could be something that would be fair to readers? Later explaining with saying *because magic* or *because an offspring is needed* wouldn't be a payoff for the wording of that exchange.
And it seems clear that Mab as the Winter Queen can get pregnant since she gave birth to changeling near-twins Maeve and Sarissa - unless their father was Fae and they were conceived when Mab was human and before she assumed a mantle, which was no earlier than the Battle of Hastings in 1066. But that would mean that Sarissa was a changeling for more than 1,000 years. Maeve's recitation of Sarissa's pursuits suggests many decades, maybe a few centuries, but I don't think 1,000+ years.
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Is it possible that Mab is Lara's mother? I don't believe Lara's mother has ever been mentioned. As noted elsewhere in this topic thread, there are times where wintry words and phrases are used to describe Lara, including by at least one of the Fae (Toot-Toot).
Being Lara's mother would also explain why Mab couldn't marry Lara. You know there was a reason for Butcher to insert that curious and awkward exchange into Battle Ground; wholly unnecessary other than to provide some clue or foreshadowing to the readers. What other reason could be something that would be fair to readers? Later explaining with saying *because magic* or *because an offspring is needed* wouldn't be a payoff for the wording of that exchange.
And it seems clear that Mab as the Winter Queen can get pregnant since she gave birth to changeling near-twins Maeve and Sarissa - unless their father was Fae and they were conceived when Mab was human and before she assumed a mantle, which was no earlier than the Battle of Hastings in 1066. But that would mean that Sarissa was a changeling for more than 1,000 years. Maeve's recitation of Sarissa's pursuits suggests many decades, maybe a few centuries, but I don't think 1,000+ years.
Why do you call them near twins and not just twins? No, they are not alike but maternal twins are not alike though they develop
in the womb at the same time, but two eggs and two sperms. I don't think unless it is a WOJ that it says anywhere that Fae cannot have children.. Also even now Mab isn't totally Fae, some human remains as we learned at the end of Cold Days.
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Is it possible that Mab is Lara's mother?
Harry would have noticed Mab's picture in Lord Raith's Gallery Of Baby Mamas.
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Harry would have noticed Mab's picture in Lord Raith's Gallery Of Baby Mamas.
I agree.
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I concur with this theory.. It fits with my theory that Justine had been infested from the beginning. Lord Raith knows full well who the half brother of Thomas is, he may even know what Harry is, so Justine infected thrown together with Thomas as a way to control him. Also knowing that Thomas and Harry will get together at some point so eventually a way to get at Harry. And as we saw at the end of Battleground it almost worked.
Given the number of slots of how many characters Nemesis can have infected at a time is limited, using one to seduce Thomas before he even met Harry would be a pretty big gamble on her turning out to be usefully positioned later on.
I think they got to her quite a while ago, but after her first appearance on page.
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Given the number of slots of how many characters Nemesis can have infected at a time is limited, using one to seduce Thomas before he even met Harry would be a pretty big gamble on her turning out to be usefully positioned later on.
I think they got to her quite a while ago, but after her first appearance on page.
Not really, Lord Raith put Justine together with Thomas, then arranged for Thomas to be as the party in Grave Peril. Also Nemesis would know a lot more about the connection between Thomas and Harry because of Lord Raith's connection to their mother, Margaret.