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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: WereElephant on May 24, 2018, 12:38:01 PM
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Nominate two contestants (Say, Arianna Ortega and Mavra). List their strengths/ weaknesses for analysis. Describe how you think the battle would go, and the victor you think is statistically most likely.
The Scenario: an Almighty-ish being or force whisks the two chosen contestants to a planet resembling earth. It is inhabited by the same flora and fauna, however no civilization or intelligent life lives there. Gravity is earth normal. There are three moons. Both contestants are placed at opposite ends of a football field sized clearing in light woods. It is dawn, during the planet's spring. The being manifests before the two, and informs them that they have been chosen to fight to the death. Only once one of them no longer functions will the other be returned to Earth. They have 24 hours to finish the job. At the end of the day, if both are still standing, both die.
The region of the Nevernever for the entire planet has been cordoned off by the Almightyish force for the duration of the fight. On the Nevernever side is an abandoned fortress surrounded by the hosts of the Almightyish force. No calling allies, no escape.
This planet is experiencing the equivalent Earth phenomenon of Halloween. Immortals can die during this day.
Restriction on Nominations: only nominate contenders who would actually fight each other in the circumstances described. For instance, if Harry and Michael were chosen, they would argue over who should sacrifice themselves without fighting, and at the end, Harry would sacrifice himself so Michael could go back to his family. No battle.
Contestants enter the field armed with what they would normally bring to a fight. For example, Harry appears with staff, blasting rod, shield bracelet, pistol, force rings, duster, his normal gear. Murphy would appear with maybe some kevlar and at least one gun. Her P90 would be acceptable. Kincaid would definitely be armed, but he probably wouldn't have the bag full of dragon's breath shotguns from Death Masks - that was a specialty preparation.
I would start things off, but I'm still planning the fight, and wanted to get this thread out there. Feel free to post a fight, reply to others' posted fights with comments, etc.
*After discussion, modified to start at dawn.
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Arianna Ortega (circa Changes) vs Mavra (circa Blood Rites)
Arianna
- multi thousand years old
- capable sorceress
- Red Court speed, strength
- can move through daylight in shadow of flesh mask
Mavra
- 600 years old (if I remember my WoJ correctly)
- very capable sorceress (taught Bianca)
- Black Court speed, strength
- helpess during day
THE FIGHT: After the Almightyish entity says begin, Mavra immediately calls up a veil and begins moving in a zig zag pattern toward Arianna, who fired a bolt of lightning too late to hit Mavra. She responds with her own veil, barely managing to get out of the way in time to dodge the inbound Bamp. Mavra, seeing that she has missed, draws the heat out of the grassy field in a 50 foot radius around her, causing the grass to become brittle and crunchy. Ortega is slow to modify her veil to disperse the new sounds, so Mavra gets an auditory cue to her location, and lunges with her drawn sword. Her aim is slightly off, only knocking the Ramp down and shooting past her. Both veils come down in the confusion. Arianna's flesh mask is ripped slightly on one arm, but the wound to her true form is already healing. Off balance from missing her lunge, by the time Mavra turns around, Arianna is hidden beneath another veil. No matter. Mavra restores her own veil and departs the field, looking for a secluded place to begin a spell using the fresh Ramp's blood on her sword. Her veil is good enough that Arianna cannot pursue, and Mavra successfully performs black magic to end Arianna remotely.
ANALYSIS: Both being vampires, they shared enhanced physical strength, speed, and agility. Mavra's enhancements exceeded Arianna's, however. Black Court are universally regarded as the strongest in this area.
Both are sorceress's. We've seen Arianna throw evocation around in Changes. To my knowledge, we haven't seen Mavra do the same, though I'm sure she can. The main thing with Mavra is her impeccable veils, demonstrated in Grave Peril. The veil, combined with her speed, allowed her to be an unseen predator faster than Arianna could deal with.
If Arianna had chosen to veil herself initially instead of attempt to smite the opposition, she might have fared better. However, we're told that she is a capable sorceress who is inexperienced in dueling with magic. As such, I assumed her first instinct as a haughty Red Court princess would be to try and crush this unknown interloper.
While the specifics of this sequence are certainly up for debate, Mavra's overall statistical advantages seem pretty solid to me. Not quite a curbstomp, but this is definitely a Black Court game.
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Hardly seems fair to me that the fight started at night, perhaps at dawn would be fairer/making more sense. I was rooting for Arianna tbh :D
In Changes, Arianna gave Harry quite the workout during their fight, which makes her at least as qualified as a White Council wizard, along with enhanced senses and strength/speed, she seemed the most likely winner. The escaping with a bit of blood was a sneaky bit though.
I like the idea of the topic, I will probably post one soon. One question though, is it the right board for this?
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Hardly seems fair to me that the fight started at night, perhaps at dawn would be fairer/making more sense. I was rooting for Arianna tbh :D
In Changes, Arianna gave Harry quite the workout during their fight, which makes her at least as qualified as a White Council wizard, along with enhanced senses and strength/speed, she seemed the most likely winner. The escaping with a bit of blood was a sneaky bit though.
I like the idea of the topic, I will probably post one soon. One question though, is it the right board for this?
I considered Dawn, but since a lot of beings like lower Ramps and all Bamps can't handle the sunlight, I figured evening would level the playing field some. Dawn would effectively hand this fight to Arianna on a silver platter since Mavra is vulnerable.
For this being the right board, I figured pulling different versions of the characters from different times (Dresden during GP vs Dresden in CD, ie) would count as spoilery. If this isn't the correct place, I will gladly move it.
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I have no idea, I'm not a mod :D
Dawn doesn't mean sunlight. There will still be more than 90 minutes without sunlight for the Blampires to enjoy, they can either try to crush the opposition quickly, or find a hiding spot and bring hell at sunset.
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I have no idea, I'm not a mod :D
Dawn doesn't mean sunlight. There will still be more than 90 minutes without sunlight for the Blampires to enjoy, they can either try to crush the opposition quickly, or find a hiding spot and bring hell at sunset.
Modified parameters to start at dawn, but left my battle submission untouched.
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I'm not actually sure the older blampires like Mavra are fully vulnerable to the sun either. And given that Harry mentioned charms to protect the Reds from sunlight as something they might ask for as a price to end the war that the Council shouldn't give them, Mavra might even be able to come up with magical countermeasures of her own against sunlight with sufficient effort.
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Arianna hurls her magic at Mavra. With one hand, Mavra disperses it with the same darkness spell she taught Bianca that dispersed Harry's magic. With the other hand, Mavra then wraps Arianna in coils of cold chain and thorny wire. With a flick of her wrist, the coils tighten, and then spin as they shred Arianna, sawing through flesh mask and blubbery skin alike, until she's nothing more than bits and pieces.
All in all, less than ten seconds start to finish.
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Arianna hurls her magic at Mavra. With one hand, Mavra disperses it with the same darkness spell she taught Bianca that dispersed Harry's magic. With the other hand, Mavra then wraps Arianna in coils of cold chain and thorny wire. With a flick of her wrist, the coils tighten, and then spin as they shred Arianna, sawing through flesh mask and blubbery skin alike, until she's nothing more than bits and pieces.
All in all, less than ten seconds start to finish.
Really? That much of a curb stomp? I know Dresden said Arianna didn't have much a duelist's mindset, but she was a competent sorceress. You don't think she could offer any resistance to the chain spell? Or at least dodge?
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That trouncing could mean that Mavra can crush Harry like a bug. Still, she's afraid of him..
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That trouncing could mean that Mavra can crush Harry like a bug. Still, she's afraid of him..
I'd be curious to see your take on the sequence. I know you said you were rooting for Arianna. How do you think it would play out?
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Really? That much of a curb stomp? I know Dresden said Arianna didn't have much a duelist's mindset, but she was a competent sorceress. You don't think she could offer any resistance to the chain spell? Or at least dodge?
I could get behind that comparison, if you consider it the difference between an experienced Sorceress and a full, albeit undead, Wizard. Arriana has no Sight, for example, but McCoy speculated that Mavra could be enough of a real Wizard to have a Deathcurse; that could indicate they are on different plateau's of magical prowess.
That trouncing could mean that Mavra can crush Harry like a bug. Still, she's afraid of him..
Apparently Harry can Cheat in this fight, thanks to the Word. WOJ has it that Harry was very much Not Bluffing her.
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Haughty Red Princess or not, a Blamp is nothing to scoff at, here's how I think it would play out:
Round 1 .... FIGHT!
Arianna immediately sets fire to the whole arena between her and Mavra, Mavra throws a bolt of black lightning that goes wide of the mark because of the distorted vision, meanwhile, Arianna whips up wind in a cyclone of air, directed more or less towards Mavra, Mavra's second spell, a firebolt, hit Arianna in the side, searing through her flesh mask and causing her immense pain. Mavra immediately draws her sword and starts to rush towards Arianna, but the cyclone of air is fanning the flames and turning them into a blazing inferno, causing her to hesitate. Arianna takes advantage of the time by pulling up a veil, and retreating from the arena to play a 2 hour hide and seek. Mavra attempts to pursue, catching a clue here and there but ultimately fails in finding Arianna in time, and with 20 minutes to go to sunrise, she decides to make herself a hideout to survive the sunlight, and the no doubt searching Arianna. She finds a clearing, layers it with illusions and digs a deep hole, using a spell to bury herself without a trace. A further proximity trigger will wake her up if Arianna stumbles into the clearing, with a couple of nastier traps set in.
At Sunrise, Arianna drops her veil, and takes time to heal herself and restore the damaged portions of the flesh mask. She starts to seek out Mavra, but realizes it won't be as easy as that, and she expects a few traps.
Mavra wakes up at sunset, no traps or alarms were triggered, and so she goes in search of Arianna, after a few hours, she finds Arianna in an area not far off of the original clearing. They sight each other almost at the same time, and Arianna starts raining firebolts at Mavra, Mavra negates them, taking a couple of hits and shrugging them off as she closed with impossible speed on Arianna, eager to put the upstart sorceress in her place.
50 feet from Arianna, she accidentaly triggers a trap, opening a portal into the NN. She tries to stop, but momentum carries her through to the NN, and into the middle of the Almightyish army, who destroy her as she attempts to escape.
Analysis:
Arianna did not spend the day searching for Mavra, she picked a decent spot with a 360 view, and positioned herself well, littering the area with hidden portals to the NN, and conserved her strength, waiting for Mavra to find her.
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Haughty Red Princess or not, a Blamp is nothing to scoff at, here's how I think it would play out:
Round 1 .... FIGHT!
Arianna immediately sets fire to the whole arena between her and Mavra, Mavra throws a bolt of black lightning that goes wide of the mark because of the distorted vision, meanwhile, Arianna whips up wind in a cyclone of air, directed more or less towards Mavra, Mavra's second spell, a firebolt, hit Arianna in the side, searing through her flesh mask and causing her immense pain. Mavra immediately draws her sword and starts to rush towards Arianna, but the cyclone of air is fanning the flames and turning them into a blazing inferno, causing her to hesitate. Arianna takes advantage of the time by pulling up a veil, and retreating from the arena to play a 2 hour hide and seek. Mavra attempts to pursue, catching a clue here and there but ultimately fails in finding Arianna in time, and with 20 minutes to go to sunrise, she decides to make herself a hideout to survive the sunlight, and the no doubt searching Arianna. She finds a clearing, layers it with illusions and digs a deep hole, using a spell to bury herself without a trace. A further proximity trigger will wake her up if Arianna stumbles into the clearing, with a couple of nastier traps set in.
At Sunrise, Arianna drops her veil, and takes time to heal herself and restore the damaged portions of the flesh mask. She starts to seek out Mavra, but realizes it won't be as easy as that, and she expects a few traps.
Mavra wakes up at sunset, no traps or alarms were triggered, and so she goes in search of Arianna, after a few hours, she finds Arianna in an area not far off of the original clearing. They sight each other almost at the same time, and Arianna starts raining firebolts at Mavra, Mavra negates them, taking a couple of hits and shrugging them off as she closed with impossible speed on Arianna, eager to put the upstart sorceress in her place.
50 feet from Arianna, she accidentaly triggers a trap, opening a portal into the NN. She tries to stop, but momentum carries her through to the NN, and into the middle of the Almightyish army, who destroy her as she attempts to escape.
Analysis:
Arianna did not spend the day searching for Mavra, she picked a decent spot with a 360 view, and positioned herself well, littering the area with hidden portals to the NN, and conserved her strength, waiting for Mavra to find her.
Cool. When is this being released in theaters?
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I may have gotten carried away. Just a bit :D
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I may have gotten carried away. Just a bit :D
Not at all. That is exactly what I was hoping to see on this thread. Eager to see more!
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Mavra wins hands down. The Vampire courts by threat from pure power are Black Court, Red Court, White Court. However since the White Court is the last standing it goes to show that cunning may trump pure power.
Without a Black Court weakness to use, Mavra's speed, and power are very very high. We've only seen a glimpse of what she can do however in one scene she was standing in one spot, and faster than human vision could detect she'd moved to another. Also Jim said that only the smartest of the Black Court are still alive which means she's very smart. She's survived a very dangerous Supernatural world without support while Ortega can make no such claim, she's existed with the support of a very powerful, and united Red Court. That's a big factor right there. Mavra has proven to be a survivor in a world where her species is nearly extinct while Ortega by comparison has lived a pampered life.
The entire fight would last less than a minute with the combatants moving at super human speed.
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Mavra wins hands down. The Vampire courts by threat from pure power are Black Court, Red Court, White Court. However since the White Court is the last standing it goes to show that cunning may trump pure power.
Without a Black Court weakness to use, Mavra's speed, and power are very very high. We've only seen a glimpse of what she can do however in one scene she was standing in one spot, and faster than human vision could detect she'd moved to another. Also Jim said that only the smartest of the Black Court are still alive which means she's very smart. She's survived a very dangerous Supernatural world without support while Ortega can make no such claim, she's existed with the support of a very powerful, and united Red Court. That's a big factor right there. Mavra has proven to be a survivor in a world where her species is nearly extinct while Ortega by comparison has lived a pampered life.
All very good points. So how do you envision the fight playing out?
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All very good points. So how do you envision the fight playing out?
Well a professional writer would have a long drawn out fight scene... Me not so much.
Mavra lets out a hiss and crosses the grass with incredible speed, Ortega has barely enough time to cast a spell that Mavra evades easily. She strikes Ortega across the face with her clawed fingers ripping the once beautiful face apart. Ortega in a flash loses her human form and replaces it with her greasy, black, vampire form and screams at Mavra. The two leap at one another and in a flash of claws, and teeth Mavra tears into the belly of Ortega. Blood is splattered, and entrails fall to the ground. Mavra stands above Ortega with gore dripping from her smiling mouth. Ortega is still alive, but just barely. Mavra says "Take your time to die, I want to relish this".
The entire fight lasts around 30 - 45 seconds with both moving at super human speed with Mavra being significantly faster than Ortega
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Well a professional writer would have a long drawn out fight scene... Me not so much.
Mavra lets out a hiss and crosses the grass with incredible speed, Ortega has barely enough time to cast a spell that Mavra evades quickly. She strikes Ortega across the face with her clawed fingers ripping the once beautiful face apart. Ortega in a flash loses her human form and replaces it with her greasy, black, vampire form and screams at Mavra. The two leap at one another and in a flash of claws, and teeth Mavra tears into the belly of Ortega. Blood is splattered, and entrails fall to the ground. Mavra stands above Ortega with gore dripping from her smiling mouth. Ortega is still alive, but just barely. Mavra says "Take your time to die, I want to relish this".
Doesn't have to be drawn out if you don't think the fight would be. :D
Very nice. It captures everything you said about Mavra's strengths and how you said they overcome Ortega's.
Anyone else for an Ortega vs Mavra fight, or shall we move on to another pair? Summer Knight Fix vs Vittorio Malvora? Eldest Fetch vs Eldest Gruff?
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Really? That much of a curb stomp? I know Dresden said Arianna didn't have much a duelist's mindset, but she was a competent sorceress. You don't think she could offer any resistance to the chain spell? Or at least dodge?
Honestly, I thought it was generous to suggest that Mavra would bother using her hands. It seems more likely that she could defeat Arianna without moving a muscle.
We're talking about a Blamp that was "locked down" by Blackstaff McCoy, and was still free to use veils that were flawless.
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She wasn't locked down, actually. I don't think she was even in that place, just a dupe to take the fall. Or maybe she was there at first, then hightailed it when she found out she was locked out. Remember she had Renfields with flamethrowers attack Harry and company, if she's so deadly as all that, and had any shred of power, she would've used it to disrupt his shield at least.
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She wasn't locked down, actually. I don't think she was even in that place, just a dupe to take the fall. Or maybe she was there at first, then hightailed it when she found out she was locked out. Remember she had Renfields with flamethrowers attack Harry and company, if she's so deadly as all that, and had any shred of power, she would've used it to disrupt his shield at least.
A few of us think that the double image Harry sees with his Sight in the main room, the specter of death behind Kincaid's hulking image, was Mavra. That he saw her but didn't realize who it was. And considering that she's known for veils, and someone was hidden in the room taking photos, it makes sense.
Not to mention that if McCoy hadn't sensed her power, he wouldn't have stayed outside.
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Looks like a stretch to me, didn't realize who it was? Well he has all the time in the world, as things seen through the Sight are etched indelibly in his mind.
And who's taking photos around a scared, nervous, spell slinging mortal wizard? Susan was 50 yards away or so, and still the image came out blurry and almost useless. Regardless, a hidden camera is a more logical option.
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Anyone else for an Ortega vs Mavra fight?
Ortega looks to Mavra, a smart smile flashing across his handsome face. "We are not the kind to bow to such demands, are w--"
His voice cuts off as an invisible line of ice cold barbed wire tightens around his throat. As his eyes bulge in surprise, the wire tightens, slicing through his neck. The air intended for his final words gasp out of his severed larynx in a red mist of blood as his head and body topple to the ground.
Mavra, unsmiling, addresses the unseen being that brought her there.
"Next."
Summer Knight Fix vs Vittorio Malvora?
Vittorio sized up the Summer Knight. "Perhaps after I kill you, the Summer Queens will gift me with a boon, in appreciation for freeing them to choose a more worthy champion."
Fix stood stock still, save for his fingers lightly closing around the hilt of the sword at his waist. "I'd say the same, but your King's probably never heard of you. I know I haven't."
Vittorio's eyes narrowed. "I will show you--"
Fix blinked in surprise as the vampire's head exploded, his pale blood glistening wetly in an expanding cloud around a sphere of inky darkness. As he tried to process the sudden and unexpected violence, an icy cold sensation spread across his body as something akin to frozen piano wire tightened across him.
"What.." he gasped out, even as the power of the Summer Knight coursed through his veins. His muscles tensed as his skin grew hot. The cold wire ensnaring him crumbled as heat rolled off his body in waves. Freed from the trap, Fix's head spun, looking for the unseen threat. His eyes fell upon a pale, deathly form stalking toward him. His sword flashed free of its sheath, the blade glinting far brighter than it should have in the faint light of the coming dawn. "Who are you?"
The gray, dead face twisted grotesquely. It took Fix several moments to realize it was supposed to be a smile. "Whoever you are, I warn you. Come any closer and I won't hold back."
The thing, which he could now see was slightly feminine, kept approaching.
"Alright," Fix said, his voice growing grim. "I tried--"
His words stumbled to a halt. A confused frown flickered across his brow as he wondered at why his voice had failed. The world spun as his mind struggled to focus. His vision blurred as a searing hot pain spread across his neck, even as a splash of something hot and wet landed across his chest.
"Grrgh," he managed to croak out, the air escaping through the ragged rends that had appeared in his throat.
His eyes failed to see the blood spurting from his exposed vein. Nor did they see the illusion of the approaching woman flicker and fade, even as the woman revealed herself behind him.
His ears failed to register the sound as she licked her bloodied fingers clean. Nor did he hear, as his limp form crashed to the ground, what she rasped in the pre-dawn air.
"Next."
Eldest Fetch vs Eldest Gruff?
The two members of the Sidhe Courts stared at each other from across a short distance.
Eldest Fetch, having assumed the form of a Spanish swordsman, narrowed his eyes at the short, stocky Gruff. "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you."
A bemused smile began to form at the edges of Eldest Gruff's snout. "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die."
The form of Eldest Fetch shifted, blurring into the shape of a Scarecrow. "I haven't got a brain. Only straw."
The beginnings of Gruff's smile bloomed into a full grin. "How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?"
Eldest Fetch's straw neck tilted to one side. "I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?"
Gruff shook his head. "Yes, I guess you're right."
Eldest Fetch's form blurred again, this time into the shape of a pale, regal man in fashionable clothing several centuries late. "Listen to them. Children of the night. What music *they* make."
A puzzled look appeared on Gruff's face, as he considered the appropriate response. He knew the reference, of course. Dracula, as if the stiff white collar hadn't been enough to give it away. But there was no reply in the original movie, save for the howling of the wolves.
A dark and malicious grin spread across Eldest Fetch's face, revealing his vampiric teeth. It seemed that he'd stumped his counterpart from Summer. And per the terms of their duel, if the stocky creature couldn't provide the correct response to his quote, he would lose the game. And with it, his life.
The seconds ticked by, as Summer's eldest servant wondered if this was the end.
But then Gruff's ears twitched, and he understood. His smile returned.
Rather than replying with words, his staff rose and fell, striking the alien ground with the sound of a thundering spring storm.
And with it, a column of flame erupted into thin air a few dozen yards away, enveloped the creature that had attempted to sneak up on them as they dueled. Dracula's creature howled as the flames consumed her.
When her howls finally faded, and her form crumbled to ash, Eldest Fetch gave a respectful bow to Eldest Gruff. The champion of Summer did the same, and then Winter's champion blurred again, assuming a new form.
And so they continued, until the day ended.
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Looks like a stretch to me, didn't realize who it was? Well he has all the time in the world, as things seen through the Sight are etched indelibly in his mind.
And who's taking photos around a scared, nervous, spell slinging mortal wizard? Susan was 50 yards away or so, and still the image came out blurry and almost useless. Regardless, a hidden camera is a more logical option.
The text from Dead Beat suggests otherwise.
I stared at the photos. The pictures were from different angles. That meant that someone else had been in the room taking them. Someone we hadn’t even seen.
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How about these fights..... Battles of the baddies
Mavra vs Shagnasty
Shagnasty vs Coin powered Genoskwa
Mavra vs Coin powered Genoskwa
Dierdre vs Mavra
Dierdre vs Shagnasty
Red King vs Coin powered Genoskwa
Red King vs Mavra
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A few of us think that the double image Harry sees with his Sight in the main room, the specter of death behind Kincaid's hulking image, was Mavra. That he saw her but didn't realize who it was. And considering that she's known for veils, and someone was hidden in the room taking photos, it makes sense.
He saw Mavra with the Sight before at Bianca's party, though. She looked exactly like herself. And Mavra probably figured there from complimenting him on seeing her when she didn't wish to be seen that the Sight detects her despite a veil (if she wasn't aware of that limitation of veils already). If it was her personally taking the photographs used for blackmail, she has the speed to easily stay out of Harry's line of sight while he's playing 'spot the Renfield'.
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He saw Mavra with the Sight before at Bianca's party, though. She looked exactly like herself. And Mavra probably figured there from complimenting him on seeing her when she didn't wish to be seen that the Sight detects her despite a veil (if she wasn't aware of that limitation of veils already). If it was her personally taking the photographs used for blackmail, she has the speed to easily stay out of Harry's line of sight while he's playing 'spot the Renfield'.
And yet we have Harry saying someone was moving around the room unseen, presumably using a veil. That same person would have to be extremely good at veils, working for Mavra to supply her with the photos, and hereto unheard of.
Or, it was her.
Looking at it logically, it being Mavra is the most likely scenario. Given that she would have been aware of Harry using his Sight to detect Renfields (he all but announced as much to the others), the most logical place to stand is behind a creature with a hulking Sight appearance that would complicate what Harry was seeing. And the only reason he saw either image was because he left his Sight up too long and reflexively looked when he heard a sound.
Her counting on all her speed and power while being suppressed by McCoy seems unlikely. She was probably using all the power at her disposal to stay hidden and get the job done.
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Her counting on all her speed and power while being suppressed by McCoy seems unlikely. She was probably using all the power at her disposal to stay hidden and get the job done.
He was suppressing her from just killing them with dark sorcery, not from moving fast enough to stay behind Harry. Super-speed is just a physical stat for blamps.
Which was kind of a waste of McCoy's abilities, since assuming the photos were her handiwork (and I agree with you that's the most likely option), she had a perfectly good opportunity to shank Harry, Murph and Kincaid with her choice of sword or firearm, and she didn't take it. The entire visit to Chicago with the failed assassination attempts was just bait to get Harry to come provide her a chance to take the blackmail photos.
Which makes Harry getting angry and declining her offer to discuss his assault on her scourge when they talked at the start of DB instead of actually fishing for some information one of the more irritating cases of him being an incurious protagonist.
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What about Harry's wizard senses? No, I don't think she was in the room herself.
And the Renfields with flamethrowers? AP mine? She was serious in setting the trap, but I don't think she stuck around to watch.
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He was suppressing her from just killing them with dark sorcery, not from moving fast enough to stay behind Harry. Super-speed is just a physical stat for blamps.
Which was kind of a waste of McCoy's abilities, since assuming the photos were her handiwork (and I agree with you that's the most likely option), she had a perfectly good opportunity to shank Harry, Murph and Kincaid with her choice of sword or firearm, and she didn't take it. The entire visit to Chicago with the failed assassination attempts was just bait to get Harry to come provide her a chance to take the blackmail photos.
Which makes Harry getting angry and declining her offer to discuss his assault on her scourge when they talked at the start of DB instead of actually fishing for some information one of the more irritating cases of him being an incurious protagonist.
You really think magical power has nothing to do with a corpse moving fast? I'd assume that magical power was all that was animating her. And if Blamps are weaker during the day (which fits the lore Harry was working with) and she was supressed by McCoy, and she was spending enough power on a veil to avoid Harry's detection, I'd say she didn't have much left to spare.
I agree it was all a setup. She lured him in with the attack outside Arturo's place. (I think she was also the buyer of the temple dogs, and that going sideways kicked off the rest). She got what she needed for the future and then waited.
What about Harry's wizard senses? No, I don't think she was in the room herself.
And the Renfields with flamethrowers? AP mine? She was serious in setting the trap, but I don't think she stuck around to watch.
So for the record, what you're proposing is that Harry's wrong about someone being in the room, and she instead counted on tech to work around a wizard coming to raid her place?
Or are you suggesting that someone even better at veils than someone purportedly great at veils was there to take the photos and then give them to the person great at veils that was supposed to be there?
And you're suggesting that McCoy, one of the (if not the most) experienced combat wizards showed up to target the power of a specific bad guy, but had no idea if the bad guy was there, or if he was wasting his time?
???
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1. So for the record, what you're proposing is that Harry's wrong about someone being in the room, and she instead counted on tech to work around a wizard coming to raid her place?
2. Or are you suggesting that someone even better at veils than someone purportedly great at veils was there to take the photos and then give them to the person great at veils that was supposed to be there?
3. And you're suggesting that McCoy, one of the (if not the most) experienced combat wizards showed up to target the power of a specific bad guy, but had no idea if the bad guy was there, or if he was wasting his time?
???
1. The camera worked, didn't it? I'm not saying that he was wrong about someone in the room, but I doubt it was Mavra herself. I didn't catch the different angles thing when I read the book, so I'll concede that much :D
2. I had a bad taste of comparatives, and Vs in my mouth when I read that.
3. I have no idea how blocking a practitioner's magic works exactly. It's at a distance, he has no idea who's there, and presumably no way to sense them from this far. Maybe McCoy just put a firewall on the whole building and added an exception for Dresden.
McCoy isn't supposed to know Mavra, he'd have to touch her to know her magic for sure, and I doubt he'd live to tell the tale.
PS: We're derailing the thread a bit, and it was a good choice to put it in the spoilers section, WereElephant. (Y)
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I would have liked to see Morgan and Kincaid fight. Although given the rules of this post I think that Morgan would probably win. A prepared Kincaid might have a chance. Especially if Morgan underestimated him. I feel like Morgan was used to dealing with fighting magic users and more supernatural threats. I know that Kincaid is technically a supernatural threat but he fights with mostly mortal tactics and weapons. Regardless I think it would be a fun scenario to see played out.
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1. The camera worked, didn't it? I'm not saying that he was wrong about someone in the room, but I doubt it was Mavra herself. I didn't catch the different angles thing when I read the book, so I'll concede that much :D
A film camera is quite simple. It might not even have any electronic components at all if it's an old one, so there's no reason to think tech disruption would preclude taking a photo.
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The two members of the Sidhe Courts stared at each other from across a short distance.
Eldest Fetch, having assumed the form of a Spanish swordsman, narrowed his eyes at the short, stocky Gruff. "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you."
A bemused smile began to form at the edges of Eldest Gruff's snout. "You seem a decent fellow. I hate to die."
The form of Eldest Fetch shifted, blurring into the shape of a Scarecrow. "I haven't got a brain. Only straw."
The beginnings of Gruff's smile bloomed into a full grin. "How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?"
Eldest Fetch's straw neck tilted to one side. "I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?"
Gruff shook his head. "Yes, I guess you're right."
Eldest Fetch's form blurred again, this time into the shape of a pale, regal man in fashionable clothing several centuries late. "Listen to them. Children of the night. What music *they* make."
A puzzled look appeared on Gruff's face, as he considered the appropriate response. He knew the reference, of course. Dracula, as if the stiff white collar hadn't been enough to give it away. But there was no reply in the original movie, save for the howling of the wolves.
A dark and malicious grin spread across Eldest Fetch's face, revealing his vampiric teeth. It seemed that he'd stumped his counterpart from Summer. And per the terms of their duel, if the stocky creature couldn't provide the correct response to his quote, he would lose the game. And with it, his life.
The seconds ticked by, as Summer's eldest servant wondered if this was the end.
But then Gruff's ears twitched, and he understood. His smile returned.
Rather than replying with words, his staff rose and fell, striking the alien ground with the sound of a thundering spring storm.
And with it, a column of flame erupted into thin air a few dozen yards away, enveloped the creature that had attempted to sneak up on them as they dueled. Dracula's creature howled as the flames consumed her.
When her howls finally faded, and her form crumbled to ash, Eldest Fetch gave a respectful bow to Eldest Gruff. The champion of Summer did the same, and then Winter's champion blurred again, assuming a new form.
And so they continued, until the day ended.
Not quite what I had in mind, but I like it!
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I would have liked to see Morgan and Kincaid fight. Although given the rules of this post I think that Morgan would probably win. A prepared Kincaid might have a chance. Especially if Morgan underestimated him. I feel like Morgan was used to dealing with fighting magic users and more supernatural threats. I know that Kincaid is technically a supernatural threat but he fights with mostly mortal tactics and weapons. Regardless I think it would be a fun scenario to see played out.
The problem with that match up is prep time. No prep time, Morgan takes it. Prep time, Kincaid. Morgan's job is to enforce the laws of magic, which does put him up against many nasties. However, Kincaid's job is to kill people in thorough, clandestine ways. He'd set Morgan up for one of the shots he described to Dresden.
How about these fights..... Battles of the baddies
Mavra vs Shagnasty
Shagnasty vs Coin powered Genoskwa
Mavra vs Coin powered Genoskwa
Dierdre vs Mavra
Dierdre vs Shagnasty
Red King vs Coin powered Genoskwa
Red King vs Mavra
Even though we stipulated that the earth facsimile is undergoing a Halloween equivalent, would Shagnasty be able to be killed? I'm not entirely clear on what he is. Skinwalker/Naagloshi, yeah, but to what is that an equivalent in terms of mortality? Immortal? Demigod? Minor god?
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Even though we stipulated that the earth facsimile is undergoing a Halloween equivalent, would Shagnasty be able to be killed? I'm not entirely clear on what he is. Skinwalker/Naagloshi, yeah, but to what is that an equivalent in terms of mortality? Immortal? Demigod? Minor god?
Shagnasty, the specific one we met, was one of the "Real" Skinwalkers (per Bob) and is an actual "Need Halloween or equivalent to Kill permanently" immortal, albeit "one of the Least" of them, by Alfred's reckoning.
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Shagnasty, the specific one we met, was one of the "Real" Skinwalkers (per Bob) and is an actual "Need Halloween or equivalent to Kill permanently" immortal, albeit "one of the Least" of them, by Alfred's reckoning.
Yeah, Bob was pretty clear that the Halloween conjunction applies to 'all of them' immortals.
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Shagnasty, the specific one we met, was one of the "Real" Skinwalkers (per Bob) and is an actual "Need Halloween or equivalent to Kill permanently" immortal, albeit "one of the Least" of them, by Alfred's reckoning.
Yeah, Bob was pretty clear that the Halloween conjunction applies to 'all of them' immortals.
Thanks for the clarification. Shagnasty vs Coin-powered Genoskwa sounds good. I'd also like to see one of them take on Macfinn. Will start planning...
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Shagnasty
- Immortal
- Shapeshifter
- Immense durability
- prodigious strength
- centuries (millenia?) of experience killing and tormenting
- can deflect magical attacks
Genoskwa/Ursiel
- Two forms: anthropoid and demon-bear
- Anthropoid - Very fast
- Anthropoid - Very strong
- Anthropoid - Durable
- Demon-bear - Very durable
- Demon-bear - Very strong
- Genoskwa age unknown, Ursiel age prehistoric (literally)
The apparition that brought the two vanishes. Both predators eye each other across the field in the light of the dawn. Shagnasty's golden fur ripples in a slight breeze, his wide mouth twisted into a grin of anticipation.
"Little hunter," says Shagnasty, his voice almost a purr, "You are going to die. I would like to make sport of this," the purr became almost sensual here, "But I must return to my business quickly. Yield, and I will end you swiftly."
"Abomination," spat the Genoskwa. His eyes gleamed with rage, "I am not your prey!"
The Genoskwa began sprinting toward Shagnasty. He crossed distance between them in mere seconds, and threw a massive limb straight toward Shagnasty's grinning visage. Or rather, where Shagnasty's grinning visage used to be. The golden-haired Naagloshi side-stepped the charge, and grabbed the Genoskwa's outstretched limb, flipping him into the air and sending him sailing away. The Genoskwa landed on his feet in a crouch, a look of surprise and malice etched onto his features.
"Pitiful," said the Skinwalker, still grinning. He walked leisurely toward the crouching simian. "Try again."
"Shut your mouth!" growled the Genoskwa.
He lunged forward a second time, preparing a large limb in a punch as before. The Skinwalker dodged, grabbing at the Genoskwa's arm, but this time the Genoskwa evaded the grasp. He pulled his gray-furred arm back from the Skinwalker's reaching fingertups, and struck with his other fist right in between Shagnasty's eyes. The Skinwalker grunted in surprise, but the Genoskwa wasn't done. He followed up with two blows to the golden-furred abdomen, and aimed a kick at the Naagloshi's knee. Shagnasty barely dodged the kick, then shoved the gray-furred form away from him into the grass.
The Skinwalker let out an ear-splitting shriek. His form blurred, becoming a large saber-toothed tiger. The tiger pounced on the Genoskwa, who rolled to the side and jumped back, eyeing the new shape of his opponent.
"Your shape matters not - it will only decide how your corpse looks!" he shouted.
The tiger pounced, crossing the thirty feet between them in a single bound. The Genoskwa dodged its leap, grrabbing for one of its hind limbs. The tiger whirled, enormous front teeth bared, golden eyes gleaming with avarice and bloodlust. The teeth found a mark in the Genoskwa's shoulder. He gasped in pain, jerking the tiger away with a twist of his hips. Blood drenched the gray fur with dark red spots.
The tiger rolled away, blurring once again into the golden haired, nine-foot tall gorilla-esque shape. The grin was even wider now. "I have tasted your blood, Little Hunter. It tastes of fear."
The Genoskwa glowered furiously at the Naagloshi. He could be faster, but the thing was a predator with many a century, or possibly even millenium, beyond his own experience. It had killed thousands, maybe tens of thousands of other predators, some stronger than the Genoskwa, and only become stronger for it. It had seen so many battles that it could probably predict his every move. For a moment, he felt a prickle of fear.
Then a voice in his head, but not his own, said in a smooth rumble. "No, do not let it intimidate you. Lead it on, let it stalk you. Appear to become the prey. When it finally tires of the game, and comes for you in earnest, I will show myself."
So the Genoskwa turned and ran for the woods at the edge of the clearing.
The Skinwalker guffawed. "Little Hunter? Little Prey." He turned into a large hawk, and pursued the Genoskwa.
It went on like that for several hours, through the afternoon, as the Skinwalker tracked the Genoskwa, sometimes closing in for a skirmish. Each time, the Genoskwa evaded probing attempts at his life, sustaining a new flesh wound. Somehow, though, the wounds were not taking a toll on it, and it remained unafraid. That puzzled the Skinwalker, for surely the creature must know it was doomed.
At sunset, the Skinwalker caught up with the Genoskwa. The Naagloshi took on its golden haired form at top of a wooded hill. The Genoskwa stood opposite it, just in front of the entrance to a cave.
"Little Prey," said Shagnasty, "You have run well. I have enjoyed our chase. But now it must end. I will extend my offer one final time, and not again. Yield, and I will end you swiftly."
The Genoskwa bared its teeth. "The stench of your corpse will be an improvement."
The Skinwalker blinked. "Truly? So be it."
The Naagloshi's form blurred again, becoming not one, but two large wolves. They moved to circle the Genoskwa, who retreated into the cave. It was narrow in the cave. The two wolves had enough room to walk abreast into its darkness, but not much more. The scent of the Genoskwa remained strong in their noses. Ordinary creatures might have found the darkness an impediment, but the Skinwalker's senses were keen, beyond what should have been feasible. The Genoskwa should have been blind in the darkness, even with its own keen senses, but somehow it moved on undeterred. Shagnasty wondered how that worked, but the wolves shrugged. He wouldn't have to worry about it much longer.
The wolves emerged into a large cavern. Stalagmites and stalagtites covered the floor and ceiling respectively. The scent of the Genoskwa remained strong. He was somewhere in here.
"Little prey," said Shagnasty, reverting to his golden form. "The darkness is not your friend."
Then a new voice thrummed throughout the cavern.
"Messenger," it crooned, sounding smooth as marble and deep as oceans. "Your time has long since been over."
Shagnasty froze. This was unexpected. Though the voice itself was unfamiliar, its quality, and the aura it gave off, was unmistakable to the Naagloshi.
"You continue to walk this earth, making sport of those weaklings who are unlucky enough to cross your path," the voice of Ursiel continued, echoing off the walls. Its source was unknowable. "Yet their unhappy fates are naught compared to the oblivion that awaits you, Naagloshi."
Shagnasty flinched. No one, and he meant no one, ever dared mention that word aloud to him. For the first time since the fight with the medicine man on that prison-island, he felt a small amount of fear.
The Skinwalker heard a small shuffling across the stone in front of him. With his enhanced vision, he could make out the outline of a hindleg of something large. In an instant, he changed his form to the tiger again, and leaped, sinking his long teeth into the leg in the blink of an eye.
Just as he did so, jaws closed around his spine, cracking it. The lower half of his body went limp. Out of the corner of Shagnasty's eye, he could now see the glowing orange eyes, and the second set of green eyes above them, set adjacent to the glowing demonic sigil of Ursiel.
Shagnasty shrieked, and the sound echoed off the cavern walls. His form blurred, becoming something slimy and octopus like, with tentacles out the wazoo and, most importantly, no backbone. But the demon-bear's teeth still blazed agony into the Naagloshi, and not four, but six enormous paws held Shagnasty in place. The jaws chomped away, burning pain into the Skinwalker's being. His form changed and changed, but the demon-bear held every one in place, and soon the damage done to one form bled through to another. Finally, Shagnasty reverted to his golden furred normal self, golden eyes shining with terror. He wasn't used to that feeling. Not in himself.
Ursiel's voice boomed triumphantly. "Your time is done." The jaws snapped shut one final time around the Naagloshi's throat.
SUMMARY
By himself, the Genoskwa would fail. Shagnasty's predatory expertise and divinity would trounce him. Only by concealing his advantage of the coin and planning a trap that exploits the Skinwalker's predictability let him win this set up.
Thoughts? Comments? Disagreement? How do you think it would go?
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The only point of disagreement is that I think Magic would make a much more prominent appearance, though I dont know if it would actually tip the scales either way. One of the mistakes Harry made with Shaggy is to forget that he was also a perfectly capable magical practitioner (he showcased a huge variety of different attacks vs LTW). Meanwhile the Genoskwa was born to Earth Magic in a way that a Human simply is not, thus presumably in a way that the Fallen can
take make Advantage of. We saw him neutralize Harry's spells, but never saw him actually try anything active and/or offensive.
Also, fwiw, I think they might actually be euqal in terms of Age and Experience, since both have origins rooted right there at the Creation of things.
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I liked the fight scene, very well written (Y)
And I don't think there would be much in the way of magical attacks. Judging from LtW's fight, when shifters fight, they don't use magic all that much. It makes sense, I think, as magical attacks against a prepared foe with supernatural speed and predator's instincts and the ability to shrug off most of them would be futile.
But... Ursiel is described as a thug, and quick to anger, I don't think he has it in him to plan such a trap. Maybe that was Genoskwa's part.
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I liked the fight scene, very well written (Y)
And I don't think there would be much in the way of magical attacks. Judging from LtW's fight, when shifters fight, they don't use magic all that much. It makes sense, I think, as magical attacks against a prepared foe with supernatural speed and predator's instincts and the ability to shrug off most of them would be futile.
With LTW Shaggy opened with boatloads of Magic, he only Shifted to Shifting (heheh) when it was clear that LWT could dodge everything (and the kitchen sink). He didnt choose physical fighting over Magic, it's what was left.
But... Ursiel is described as a thug, and quick to anger, I don't think he has it in him to plan such a trap. Maybe that was Genoskwa's part.
Honestly, the fact that the genoskwa seemed to still have an intact personality and drive at all makes him noticeably different from Ursiel's supposed MO. Im curious what the cause of that was; Time? Or are Rock People just that much more resilient.
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The only point of disagreement is that I think Magic would make a much more prominent appearance, though I dont know if it would actually tip the scales either way. One of the mistakes Harry made with Shaggy is to forget that he was also a perfectly capable magical practitioner (he showcased a huge variety of different attacks vs LTW). Meanwhile the Genoskwa was born to Earth Magic in a way that a Human simply is not, thus presumably in a way that the Fallen can take make Advantage of. We saw him neutralize Harry's spells, but never saw him actually try anything active and/or offensive.
I thought about that. The magic showed up once he found someone he considered a threat (LTW). He didn't really use it (that I remember) while attacking the Alphas or the Raith estate. I assumed because he enjoys the more physical aspects of prey he doesn't consider threatening. That being said, maybe he should have broken some out once Ursiel made his appearance.
I liked the fight scene, very well written (Y)
And I don't think there would be much in the way of magical attacks. Judging from LtW's fight, when shifters fight, they don't use magic all that much. It makes sense, I think, as magical attacks against a prepared foe with supernatural speed and predator's instincts and the ability to shrug off most of them would be futile.
But... Ursiel is described as a thug, and quick to anger, I don't think he has it in him to plan such a trap. Maybe that was Genoskwa's part.
Thank you! And I agree, it is a little of a departure from Ursiel's MO, but once I thought of that sequence, I couldn't resist exploring it. Then again...
Honestly, the fact that the genoskwa seemed to still have an intact personality and drive at all makes him noticeably different from Ursiel's supposed MO. Im curious what the cause of that was; Time? Or are Rock People just that much more resilient.
...maybe there's something to this? Dunno.
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You're right Quantus. I just reread the fight scene, I didn't remember offensive magic being much of a factor. It wasn't, after all. He is a shifty character. Heh
Im curious what the cause of that was; Time? Or are Rock People just that much more resilient.
They're particularly hard headed. Heh. Heh.
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You're right Quantus. I just reread the fight scene, I didn't remember offensive magic being much of a factor. It wasn't, after all. He is a shifty character. Heh
They're particularly hard headed. Heh. Heh.
Ouch, so much punnage... ;D
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Gard vs Kincaid?
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Gard vs Kincaid?
Depends how good Gard's "health plan" actually is. Can Choosers of the Slain be killed?
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Depends how good Gard's "health plan" actually is. Can Choosers of the Slain be killed?
Good question. I'm assuming magical means with enough oomph would work, but I don't know about conventional weaponry. They could be immune to mortal weapons as a job perk. Otherwise, getting killed by a stray arrow while choosing slain from the Battle of Hastings would be a tad embarrassing.
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Good question. I'm assuming magical means with enough oomph would work, but I don't know about conventional weaponry. They could be immune to mortal weapons as a job perk. Otherwise, getting killed by a stray arrow while choosing slain from the Battle of Hastings would be a tad embarrassing.
On the flip side, if anyone (besides Harry) were going to know how to Kill the Unkillable, it's Kincaid.
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She's totally killable. Heh.
Her bones break, the Grendlekin did a number on her and almost killed her with purely physical methods, and she doesn't look like she's able to perform evocation. She'd bring her axe and box of rune tiles though, which would make her dangerous in a prolonged encounter.
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She's totally killable. Heh.
Her bones break, the Grendlekin did a number on her and almost killed her with purely physical methods, and she doesn't look like she's able to perform evocation. She'd bring her axe and box of rune tiles though, which would make her dangerous in a prolonged encounter.
Oh, she's HURTable, no denying. But then her plan was to just superglue her sleeve back together and wait for it to repair itself. Even Mantled immortals can take damage, the question was more whether it takes Special Circumstances to keep her down. you could /hurt/ Aurora with Iron, but it had to be on the proper Killing Field for it to be permanent damage
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We're assuming this almightyish force has taken that into account and enabled sudden death mode for pseudo earth, otherwise what's the freaking point?
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We're assuming this almightyish force has taken that into account and enabled sudden death mode for pseudo earth, otherwise what's the freaking point?
As specified, Pseudo-Earth is experiencing the equivalent of Halloween, so Immortals are not safe. That being said, some things grant a similar effect to Immortality that might not be suspended by Halloween. For instance, the noose Nicodemus wears. It ostensibly makes the wearer invulnerable to all but itself. We haven't put Nick on a nuclear test site while wearing the thing, but we also haven't seen him hurt while wearing it, either. I am assuming the question posed by Quantus is of a similar vein - does Gard have anything that prevents her from being killed in certain ways or under certain circumstances? And if she does, would Kincaid have a way around it?