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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: PatchR on May 05, 2013, 12:52:46 AM
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Hey DFRPG Community,
When you make custom Scion templates, do you include some sort of catch or action that if they do, they fully become the supernatural template? This came up recently in a discussion. I say if you base it on Changelings (and for that matter the WCVi and the RCI templates) there has to be some consequence that could make you go into either NPC land or near to it. At the same time, I understand the aspect of making a PC into an NPC and limiting what they can take is sort of a tactical nuke option. If everyone has the same refresh, does this ever make the game unbalanced or does that matter? Does imposing this sort of "catch" on a player seem fitting to the -Verse?
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Such a condition might be fun, but it's certainly not necessary to game balance. Templates don't really matter, balance-wise.
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I've always treated non-Fae Scions almost exactly the same as Changelings - you have to make a Choice at some point, spending more refresh on powers brings you closer to the Choice, etc. It seems the simplest, most reasonable way to handle these things.
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Hey DFRPG Community,
When you make custom Scion templates, do you include some sort of catch or action that if they do, they fully become the supernatural template? This came up recently in a discussion. I say if you base it on Changelings (and for that matter the WCVi and the RCI templates) there has to be some consequence that could make you go into either NPC land or near to it. At the same time, I understand the aspect of making a PC into an NPC and limiting what they can take is sort of a tactical nuke option. If everyone has the same refresh, does this ever make the game unbalanced or does that matter? Does imposing this sort of "catch" on a player seem fitting to the -Verse?
What if that particular template arguably has some form of Free Will? Say a arhat who is a disciple (scion) of Buddha. Or a scion of angelic origin - I was told that angels have some form of Free Will.
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What if that particular template arguably has some form of Free Will? Say a arhat who is a disciple (scion) of Buddha. Or a scion of angelic origin - I was told that angels have some form of Free Will.
Angels may have some sort of free will but they are not free to act against their nature.
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I've always treated non-Fae Scions almost exactly the same as Changelings - you have to make a Choice at some point, spending more refresh on powers brings you closer to the Choice, etc. It seems the simplest, most reasonable way to handle these things.
The Choice will have to be made at some point... What's that point? Can it have a mechanical, game definition?
For example, in the Neutral Grounds play scenario, there is a Half-Elf named Dania. Her power is Glamours [-2]. In her write-up, they go on to say that she has the ability to develop more Fae powers such as Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Toughness. If she develops these powers, she will have given herself over wholly to her Fae side and become an Elf, turning into an NPC at the end of the gaming session. They are playing in a Waist Deep scenario. She only has 7 Refresh to begin with and when you look at all her Stunts and Powers, taking those two aforementioned abilities will take her Refresh to Zero. That's the point where she loses Free-Will and becomes an NPC according to the book.
But lets say this character stuck around for a longer Chronicle and achieved a Major Milestone, gaining +1 Refresh. Now, even if she develops Inhuman Speed [-2] and Inhuman Toughness [-1], she will still have 1 Refresh and still, technically, be a PC. Has Dania staved off the Choice for a little while longer? Can she keep it up if she takes things slowly?
Or, is it inevitable? No amount of Milestones or Refresh is going to prevent her from becoming wholly Fae as long as she keeps developing supernatural powers? Is that meant to be a conceit of the game? You can be a Pure Mortal or a Spellcaster and remain human indefinitely as long as you make the right choices. Anything else... even when you make the right choices...you're doomed to become a Monster.
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I'd have to check a few different places to be sure, but I am under the impression that a strict reading forces NPC-dom only on the basis of net refresh, regardless of Choice.
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I think for Changelings (and I'd apply it to any other Scions as well) the point where the Choice is made (and thus NPCdom) is when either refresh reaches 0 or the selection of powers matches the parent. At that point, the choice is made, whether or not refresh is still positive.
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That's when the Choice is made, yes, but the Choice is not necessarily where NPC-dom is decided.
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That would depend on the type of Scion. If the "parent type" of being is deemed playable, of course the post-choice scion will be as well; while if it isn't (such as fae, not playable
by RAW in my mind no matter the refresh) the scion will become NPC upon choice.
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fae, not playable by RAW no matter the refresh
Is there actually a definitive statement to that effect in the RAW?
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Um, darn it, now you went and made me uncertain here...
Edit: After looking at it, I think I might actually have mixed it up with the note by "Spectre" on OW57 about "low refresh but still unplayable" and just in my head expanded it. Will duly edit my previous post to reflect that it was opinion, not RAW.
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Angels may have some sort of free will but they are not free to act against their nature.
They can act against their nature, but it causes them to Fall. They are "free to act against their nature" in terms of this choice being possible, but definitely not "free" in the sense that this choice has no inherent consequence.
For functional gameplay purposes, I'd run angels as constantly choosing not to Fall, which looks exactly like not having free will. I'm not exactly sure how I'd treat an angelic scion, though; it would probably depend on the background and justification I was given.
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This is where FATE and Butcher's fiction deviate a little. By the setting, Fae have no true free will and can't be PCs. By Fate - if you have enough refresh, they can be.
Personally, I'd allow players to play a full Fae if they had a backstory to explain why they have free will. Possibly a force of nature corrupted?
Scions on the other hand I read as 'half breeds' - as opposed to a changeling that makes a choice to be Fae or human, Scions are human that have inherited power from their non-human parents and therefore are the exception - they mostly do have free will, although they might feel the pull of their parents. The downside of this is they never had the choice to go to one side or the other - they're stuck in the middle with no way out. Thus why Scions are the ideal, if a bit more boring, choice for a PC. They're also a lot more rare than a changeling, and I'd personally say a magnitude weaker than their parentage by default, but that's just me.
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They can act against their nature, but it causes them to Fall. They are "free to act against their nature" in terms of this choice being possible, but definitely not "free" in the sense that this choice has no inherent consequence.
For functional gameplay purposes, I'd run angels as constantly choosing not to Fall, which looks exactly like not having free will. I'm not exactly sure how I'd treat an angelic scion, though; it would probably depend on the background and justification I was given.
According to Genesis, the angelic Half-breeds (Nephilim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim) were the Giants (like Goliath) and by some interpretations it was their capacity for wickedness that led to God sending the Flood. By that I would think that they had mortal style Free Will and none of the imposed Purpose that seems to bind the full, Created Angels.
That being said, it might be fun to run them as having a Light Side/Dark Side sort of Choice hanging over them, where they can ultimately Choose to be more like a Loyalist angel (soulfire, etc) or a Fallen (gaining denarian-esk powers)
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The old Woj about Kincaid made it clear that scions do have a Choice.
The new Woj (from the KC q and a iirc) would at least seem to raise the distinct possibility of fae characters being playable and still not venturing outside of cannon (if that concerns your group).
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The old Woj about Kincaid made it clear that scions do have a Choice.
The new Woj (from the KC q and a iirc) would at least seem to raise the distinct possibility of fae characters being playable and still not venturing outside of cannon (if that concerns your group).
I think the question that concerns our group is: Can a player be forced to "Choose?" Can a player be forced to make their character non-playable? An NPC? Even if it is part of a story, like with Changelings...
The whole vibe from DF RPG and FATE system in general tells me... Probably not. If a player doesn't want their character to become an NPC, then they can make all the right choices to prevent that from happening by the rules as written.
Scions on the other hand I read as 'half breeds' - as opposed to a changeling that makes a choice to be Fae or human, Scions are human that have inherited power from their non-human parents and therefore are the exception - they mostly do have free will, although they might feel the pull of their parents. The downside of this is they never had the choice to go to one side or the other - they're stuck in the middle with no way out. Thus why Scions are the ideal, if a bit more boring, choice for a PC. They're also a lot more rare than a changeling, and I'd personally say a magnitude weaker than their parentage by default, but that's just me.
Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?
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I think the question that concerns our group is: Can a player be forced to "Choose?" Can a player be forced to make their character non-playable? An NPC? Even if it is part of a story, like with Changelings...
The whole vibe from DF RPG and FATE system in general tells me... Probably not. If a player doesn't want their character to become an NPC, then they can make all the right choices to prevent that from happening by the rules as written.
Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?
I didnt say that :P
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The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?
A taken out result could be having the Choice forced upon you. IIRC, it also gets effectively forced if, with a template that can't get rid of powers, you go off the deep end with non temporary powers.
This ignores the hybrid cases (Mom's a Wizard, Dad's a Fey, I'm a practitioner with a few Changeling assists) where making the 'Mortal' side of the Choice may actually leave you with 'powers' (or let you redevelop them).
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Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?
Changelings are technically scions, but fae scions are not necessarily changelings, at least how I understand it. Please let me know if I've missed that part in the books. Basically what this means is not all of them even get a choice: some just plain don't get to choose one or the other, they're permanently stuck in between. That's why I usually like to differentiate between scions and changelings. I'd also say that the concept of the choice is unique to Fae, since the idea of mantles of power is there. For other races, it might not be possible to become a full blooded creature, or it might require some more difficult or simple right of passage - such as a ritual, or simply hitting a certain age, etc.
But as for being forced to make a decision? I'd say yes, but it's quite difficult to force such a decision and might require a strong compel on your high concept. As a GM, I'd never make such a compel if the player couldn't buy it off, and would use it to basically exhaust that players fate points for a fight. I'd also have a good and very personal reason for the compel - your sisters in danger, you could save her if you had more power! etc. etc.
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Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?
Another important point: you have the changeling choice wrong. The choice is to become fae and have power and no free will, or become Human and have free will and no power. Not choosing is how they keep a little of both.
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Woj from 2011 bitten by books q and a
Does Kincaid have the ability to “choose” like Faerie changelings (i.e Meryl/Fix/Lily)?”
All scions do, though if they never twig to the fact that they ARE a scion, it’s their actions that make the Choice for them. Kincaid made his Choice a long, long time ago.
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Just want to note that by RAW, the GM can force a human into NPCdom by hitting him with Lawbreaker stunts, so that might be precedent for decreeing (under the right circumstances) that a changeling character will burn his refresh and become an NPC.
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A GM could do that, but it's a bit of a jerk move, to force a player to give up their character if they don't want to. Apart from killing with magic (which isn't going to happen unless the player chooses to kill in a conflict, or negotiated as part of a compel), it's pretty hard to break the Laws without meaning to.
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Actually, killing with magic is exactly what I was thinking of. This stems from the fact that, to me, the First Law doesn't seem to make any sense RAW, because it effectively means that doing the right thing for the right reason can turn you evil. I understand the First Law to be a specific prohibition against magical murder, which is distinct from magical killing. The former is definitely always wrong, the later may be right or wrong depending on circumstances.
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The point is that according to the rules of magic it is never the right thing to kill a mortal with magic.
It is a perversion of the energies of creation to use it to snuff out one of the "free agents" of creation. (Mortals being the group than can use "free will" to choose outside of their blueprints).
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I understand the First Law to be a specific prohibition against magical murder, which is distinct from magical killing.
Your understanding is mistaken.
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Well, I can't understand it any other way, it just doesn't make any sense.
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Killing with magic is bad for your soul, whether or not its in self-defense, defense of innocents, or execution.
If you absolutely must kill, and absolutely must use magic, then use the magic to incapacitate them long enough for you to stomp their face into the mud.
That won't corrupt your soul quite so dramatically.
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Essentially yes. It's made abundantly clear in the novels and DFRPG that specifically taking a life through the use of mortal magic is a violation of the natural order of the universe, on par with altering a person's mind, raising the dead, or altering the past.
This isn't a moral judgement in any way, and Anastacia Lucco points this out bluntly to Harry. The Wardens do not uphold morality, they uphold the Laws of Magic.
And yes, you're right, sometimes it means a character can be punished for doing what they believe to be the right thing. Like Harry killing DuMorne. That was in self-defence, and still was a violation of the Laws of Magic, setting up Harry's initial conflict with the Council. This is also why, as stated in the novels, the Wardens carry swords, so they can finish off an opponent, or carry out an execution, without using magic.
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I think the question that concerns our group is: Can a player be forced to "Choose?" Can a player be forced to make their character non-playable? An NPC? Even if it is part of a story, like with Changelings...
The whole vibe from DF RPG and FATE system in general tells me... Probably not. If a player doesn't want their character to become an NPC, then they can make all the right choices to prevent that from happening by the rules as written.
Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?
I would say that the Choice can't be forced, with a caveat. Narratively, if the character keeps drawing on their nonhuman heritage and developing more and more powers, they're going to get to the point where they effectively make their Choice and become an NPC. This isn't forced - this is due to actions the character took, the Choice the character made to keep drawing on and developing those powers despite knowing where that path would lead. At any point up until they become an NPC, though, they can make the opposite Choice and become a pure mortal.
Mechanically, a GM can compel a PC to take actions that lead to the character making their Choice, but the player can refuse the compels as long as they have Fate Points to spare. And, as others have said, it's bad form for a GM to compel a character to become an NPC.
The caveat is this: In the case of Changelings, there is one known way to force someone's Choice - arrange for them to receive the mantle of a faerie queen/mother/lady. However, to do this, you would need to A) Be able to kill one of the most powerful beings of faerie and B) Arrange it so that the Changeling was the closest possible vessel for the mantle. So...it's extremely unlikely to come up in play.
This is pure speculation on my part, but it's possible other scions might be forced into their Choice the same way, depending on how gods' mantles work. In the highly unlikely event that a god is killed, would the god's mantle then settle on his nearest scion, effectively making their Choice for them?
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As a GM I wouldn't force a Choice or call that Choice made when the PC's powers match the parent. My group uses the choice as a "nuclear option" for changeling PCs,they can reach beyond their ability to handle and take on a hefty template for one scene before they are surrendered. We still allow the child to surpass the parent if they do it the slow way and stay at a positive refresh.
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It is important to note that it only counts as killing with magic if the intent of the spell directly is to cause death. For example casting a spell that makes your sword burn? Not killing with magic. Casting a spell to cause a boulder to fall and that boulder kills a person? Not killing with magic.
Casting a spell to deliberately cause a boulder to fall and kill someone with magic is. It's a fine line though and many wardens will be likely to kill you for the grey area but intent is important.
Particularly with enchanting, you can enchant a weapon to do lots of nifty things that make it deadly as long as it isn't enchanted to kill. Shapeshifters are another good example, if you shapeshift into an animal and kill them you are killing them with magic sure, but the magic's purpose was to change your form, not focused on killing. The books talk more about this distinction I believe.
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Killing with magic is bad for your soul, whether or not its in self-defense, defense of innocents, or execution.
If you absolutely must kill, and absolutely must use magic, then use the magic to incapacitate them long enough for you to stomp their face into the mud.
That won't corrupt your soul quite so dramatically.
or use methods lead to regular dead like hearth attack due having one hell of a sex with white court vampire
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or use methods lead to regular dead like hearth attack due having one hell of a sex with white court vampire
White Court Vampires dont seem to be subject to Lawbreaker, at least normally, though Id argue that the heart failure is still a magical attack since it's the result of a severe drain of Chi.
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White Court Vampires dont seem to be subject to Lawbreaker, at least normally, though Id argue that the heart failure is still a magical attack since it's the result of a severe drain of Chi.
you dont need the drain it competently just drain slowly enough to overclock the targets heart to fail. Like lara does the idea is using incite emotion to remotely throttle the heart until its no longer keep same high rhythm and enters the cardiac arrest which kills the target not you feeding until they are dry( lara and her sisters used this method to mercy kill injured guards in the book) so when butters looks the corpse he can write natural cause instead of drain completely by vampire call dresden asap.
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you dont need the drain it competently just drain slowly enough to overclock the targets heart to fail. Like lara does the idea is using incite emotion to remotely throttle the heart until its no longer keep same high rhythm and enters the cardiac arrest which kills the target not you feeding until they are dry( lara and her sisters used this method to mercy kill injured guards in the book) so when butters looks the corpse he can write natural cause instead of drain completely by vampire call dresden asap.
...That's still killing with a magic effect. Might be a little harder to spot, but that's about it; it's just the equivalent of using a n ice-pick to the ear for assassination rather than a sniper bullet.
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...That's still killing with a magic effect. Might be a little harder to spot, but that's about it; it's just the equivalent of using a n ice-pick to the ear for assassination rather than a sniper bullet.
I dont think needs action from warden. harry might investigate it but not as warden but as P.I on case paid by some one. And warden needs to break the laws ( mind magic one ) to uncover why random muggle died erect with smile in his face. so no warden cant be bothered with it and even harry didn't know until butters basicly request him to look at corpse he got.
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I dont think needs action from warden. harry might investigate it but not as warden but as P.I on case paid by some one. And warden needs to break the laws ( mind magic one ) to uncover why random muggle died erect with smile in his face. so no warden cant be bothered with it and even harry didn't know until butters basicly request him to look at corpse he got.
OK, so we're agreed? It's both not a practical way for a mortal wizard to avoid Lawbreaking and also not an example of a way to kill without magic? But as a supernatural death it would still function as a story hook.
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OK, so we're agreed? It's both not a practical way for a mortal wizard to avoid Lawbreaking and also not an example of a way to kill without magic? But as a supernatural death it would still function as a story hook.
It will act as a story event not full fledged plot hook and with out special knowledge like Thomas giving feeding info to harry. I dont think random warden can lead to case of serial killings and they still need to address and use mortal authorities which kinda big no no in wardens book. its not practical alright but leads kinda less evidence to mortal authorities since all they know and interested is its dead by natural cause so no empty shells or poison or injury via anything so they dont need to investigate the case any longer than real ones.