Scion Question

[PatchR]

Hey DFRPG Community,

When you make custom Scion templates, do you include some sort of catch or action that if they do, they fully become the supernatural template? This came up recently in a discussion. I say if you base it on Changelings (and for that matter the WCVi and the RCI templates) there has to be some consequence that could make you go into either NPC land or near to it. At the same time, I understand the aspect of making a PC into an NPC and limiting what they can take is sort of a tactical nuke option. If everyone has the same refresh, does this ever make the game unbalanced or does that matter? Does imposing this sort of "catch" on a player seem fitting to the -Verse?

[Sanctaphrax]

Such a condition might be fun, but it's certainly not necessary to game balance. Templates don't really matter, balance-wise.

[EdgeOfDreams]

I've always treated non-Fae Scions almost exactly the same as Changelings - you have to make a Choice at some point, spending more refresh on powers brings you closer to the Choice, etc. It seems the simplest, most reasonable way to handle these things.

[toturi]

Hey DFRPG Community,

When you make custom Scion templates, do you include some sort of catch or action that if they do, they fully become the supernatural template? This came up recently in a discussion. I say if you base it on Changelings (and for that matter the WCVi and the RCI templates) there has to be some consequence that could make you go into either NPC land or near to it. At the same time, I understand the aspect of making a PC into an NPC and limiting what they can take is sort of a tactical nuke option. If everyone has the same refresh, does this ever make the game unbalanced or does that matter? Does imposing this sort of "catch" on a player seem fitting to the -Verse?

What if that particular template arguably has some form of Free Will? Say a arhat who is a disciple (scion) of Buddha. Or a scion of angelic origin - I was told that angels have some form of Free Will.

[Mr. Ghostbuster]

What if that particular template arguably has some form of Free Will? Say a arhat who is a disciple (scion) of Buddha. Or a scion of angelic origin - I was told that angels have some form of Free Will.

Angels may have some sort of free will but they are not free to act against their nature.

[Troy]

I've always treated non-Fae Scions almost exactly the same as Changelings - you have to make a Choice at some point, spending more refresh on powers brings you closer to the Choice, etc. It seems the simplest, most reasonable way to handle these things.

The Choice will have to be made at some point... What's that point? Can it have a mechanical, game definition?

For example, in the Neutral Grounds play scenario, there is a Half-Elf named Dania. Her power is Glamours [-2]. In her write-up, they go on to say that she has the ability to develop more Fae powers such as Inhuman Speed and Inhuman Toughness. If she develops these powers, she will have given herself over wholly to her Fae side and become an Elf, turning into an NPC at the end of the gaming session. They are playing in a Waist Deep scenario. She only has 7 Refresh to begin with and when you look at all her Stunts and Powers, taking those two aforementioned abilities will take her Refresh to Zero. That's the point where she loses Free-Will and becomes an NPC according to the book.

But lets say this character stuck around for a longer Chronicle and achieved a Major Milestone, gaining +1 Refresh. Now, even if she develops Inhuman Speed [-2] and Inhuman Toughness [-1], she will still have 1 Refresh and still, technically, be a PC. Has Dania staved off the Choice for a little while longer? Can she keep it up if she takes things slowly?

Or, is it inevitable? No amount of Milestones or Refresh is going to prevent her from becoming wholly Fae as long as she keeps developing supernatural powers? Is that meant to be a conceit of the game? You can be a Pure Mortal or a Spellcaster and remain human indefinitely as long as you make the right choices. Anything else... even when you make the right choices...you're doomed to become a Monster.

[Tedronai]

I'd have to check a few different places to be sure, but I am under the impression that a strict reading forces NPC-dom only on the basis of net refresh, regardless of Choice.

[Cadd]

I think for Changelings (and I'd apply it to any other Scions as well) the point where the Choice is made (and thus NPCdom) is when either refresh reaches 0 or the selection of powers matches the parent. At that point, the choice is made, whether or not refresh is still positive.

[Tedronai]

That's when the Choice is made, yes, but the Choice is not necessarily where NPC-dom is decided.

[Cadd]

That would depend on the type of Scion. If the "parent type" of being is deemed playable, of course the post-choice scion will be as well; while if it isn't (such as fae, not playable by RAW in my mind no matter the refresh) the scion will become NPC upon choice.

[Tedronai]

fae, not playable by RAW no matter the refresh

Is there actually a definitive statement to that effect in the RAW?

[Cadd]

Um, darn it, now you went and made me uncertain here...

Edit: After looking at it, I think I might actually have mixed it up with the note by "Spectre" on OW57 about "low refresh but still unplayable" and just in my head expanded it. Will duly edit my previous post to reflect that it was opinion, not RAW.

[Vairelome]

Angels may have some sort of free will but they are not free to act against their nature.

They can act against their nature, but it causes them to Fall.  They are "free to act against their nature" in terms of this choice being possible, but definitely not "free" in the sense that this choice has no inherent consequence.

For functional gameplay purposes, I'd run angels as constantly choosing not to Fall, which looks exactly like not having free will.  I'm not exactly sure how I'd treat an angelic scion, though; it would probably depend on the background and justification I was given.

[cold_breaker]

This is where FATE and Butcher's fiction deviate a little. By the setting, Fae have no true free will and can't be PCs. By Fate - if you have enough refresh, they can be.

Personally, I'd allow players to play a full Fae if they had a backstory to explain why they have free will. Possibly a force of nature corrupted?

Scions on the other hand I read as 'half breeds' - as opposed to a changeling that makes a choice to be Fae or human, Scions are human that have inherited power from their non-human parents and therefore are the exception - they mostly do have free will, although they might feel the pull of their parents. The downside of this is they never had the choice to go to one side or the other - they're stuck in the middle with no way out. Thus why Scions are the ideal, if a bit more boring, choice for a PC. They're also a lot more rare than a changeling, and I'd personally say a magnitude weaker than their parentage by default, but that's just me.

[Quantus]

They can act against their nature, but it causes them to Fall.  They are "free to act against their nature" in terms of this choice being possible, but definitely not "free" in the sense that this choice has no inherent consequence.

For functional gameplay purposes, I'd run angels as constantly choosing not to Fall, which looks exactly like not having free will.  I'm not exactly sure how I'd treat an angelic scion, though; it would probably depend on the background and justification I was given.

According to Genesis, the angelic Half-breeds (Nephilim were the Giants (like Goliath) and by some interpretations it was their capacity for wickedness that led to God sending the Flood.  By that I would think that they had mortal style Free Will and none of the imposed Purpose that seems to bind the full, Created Angels.

That being said, it might be fun to run them as having a Light Side/Dark Side sort of Choice hanging over them, where they can ultimately Choose to be more like a Loyalist angel (soulfire, etc) or a Fallen (gaining denarian-esk powers)