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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Bruce Coulson on July 07, 2010, 06:51:19 PM

Title: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 07, 2010, 06:51:19 PM
This is a campaign/rules/style conflict.

My take on the game is that it includes everything we've seen; but that there's a lot of room for expansion. (i.e. Harry hasn't seen everything in the supernatural world...or the real world, for that matter).

One of the players (who's been thinking about being a co-GM) is big on Rules As Written and doesn't want anything in the campaign that's not in the books.

The big sticking point is psychic powers.  One player wants to run a psychic with powers not listed in the game book.  The possible GM/player is very much against this.

The power in real question is telepathy, a standard psychic (if not seen in the Dresdenverse) power.  With proper limitations, I felt that it wouldn't unbalance the game, nor ruin the adventures I had vaguely in mind.  He feels very much otherwise.

Primarily, I see the Fate system as allowing a lot of cool things for the players; of me saying Yes as much as possible when a player wants something (and explaining why the game will be better for the group when I say No when that's required).  Am I reading something that isn't there?
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Ala Alba on July 07, 2010, 06:57:00 PM
A canon example of Telepathy can be found in Turn Coat, if that helps.

Not to mention also in White Night, and maybe Summer Knight(I'm very iffy on this one).
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: rickayelm on July 07, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
I would think that telepathy would be covered under supernatural senses. The real problem with telepathy is that it violates the laws of magic, so if you use it the wardens will try to kill you.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: luminos on July 07, 2010, 07:00:00 PM
The basic rule is, as long as things don't contradict whats already there, go wild with putting in new stuff.  The Rules as Written explicitly encourage players to tinker with stuff in certain frameworks.  

The only real problem with a telepathy power is that mind reading would be a big time violation of one of the laws of magic in most cases.  But as long as the consequences of breaking a law of magic is handled, go for it.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: austinmonster on July 07, 2010, 07:00:48 PM
well... Other than a conflict with the Laws of Magic (how's THOSE for rules as written)  that could easily just be a Minor Power (-1) type ability if it only allowed the character to communicate with those who would be willing to communicate with them.

They they wanted to start walkin' around and bustin' up the laws, you could just take Channeling "mental" (-2) I suppose.  It would allow for psychomantic attacks, as well as forceful communication.  

Remember that "psychic powers" in the dresdenverse are just minor talents that don't have proper training.  All those psychics out there are really mages that just learned a few spells on their own.  If they studied, they might have the ability to do far, far more.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Ravangames on July 07, 2010, 07:02:56 PM
I would think that telepathy would be covered under supernatural senses. The real problem with telepathy is that it violates the laws of magic, so if you use it the wardens will try to kill you.


Doesn't that only count if you are a wizard concept? 

It's not like they go around killing Fae for poking around in people's minds.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Crion on July 07, 2010, 07:03:10 PM
Primarily, I see the Fate system as allowing a lot of cool things for the players; of me saying Yes as much as possible when a player wants something (and explaining why the game will be better for the group when I say No when that's required).  Am I reading something that isn't there?

I would have to agree with your point that yes, Fate does allow you to say "yes" to your party more often. You aren't misreading something there.

Now, to this other co-GM/player, I'd point out the difference between the Rules As Written (i.e. the Seelie Accords) and the Spirit of the Rules (White Council stuff). If you go in as-written, you are just focusing on blocks of texts and restraining yourself because the system can't cover everything, especially since, as you thoughtfully mentioned, what we see in the game consists of what Harry and the Alphas have seen.

Besides, if you take a look at most of the margins and sidebars, you'll see that they offer possibilities for things that haven't been directly encountered or explained yet. For example, we've seen Kincaid for what he truly is, but we don't know what that is yet. Does this mean we can't put him in the game?  What about Mouse? We don't have a Scion template, but instead notes and guidelines on how to make it instead of the hard and fast rules.

Long story short: I think you have a better grip on the spirit of the rules, but there is still the Golden Rule of Gaming: Have Fun. If you and the players aren't having fun, then why are you playing?

And it seems like everyone else beat me to the comments field, but I think the point still stands. Go crazy on adding things that are fitting to the Dresdenverse, and enjoy yourself.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: DFJunkie on July 07, 2010, 07:03:24 PM
Quote
The real problem with telepathy is that it violates the laws of magic, so if you use it the wardens will try to kill you.

Not necessarily.  Consentual mind-to-mind communication is perfectly kosher,
(click to show/hide)
.  

A couple options for making this sort of psychic playable:
1) It could be possible to pick up a person's surface thoughts without invading their minds, maybe they somehow affect the aether/mana-sphere/whatever in a way the player can read.
2) Include a certain amount of precognition.  Sure it might butt up against the Sixth law, but as long as the PC sticks to the gray area it should be points well spent.
3) Be sure to throw plenty of inhuman foes at the players.  Your psychic can go ahead and mindrape vampires, faeries, and other non-human sentients at will.

Your co-GM needs to learn to say yes to the players more.  So long as no one is being immature and attempting to break the game there's really no reason to turn down a player's concept.  If I was worried about anything when I picked up Dresden it's that the characters would have too much weight, and no one would want to play anything/anyone original (ie. we'd have a Harry clone, a Murphy clone, a Thomas clone, etc.).  You and your co-GM got lucky in having a player who wants to break some new ground.

Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: neko128 on July 07, 2010, 07:03:29 PM
For violations of the laws of magic, wouldn't it depend heavily on the type of telepathy?  I would have thought that broadcast telepathy, for example, was fine - reading someone's mind is not necessarily the same as hearing their thoughts.

Also, there's a fine line between empathy and telepathy and mind-reading.  I'd have said there's definitely room for grey in there.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: luminos on July 07, 2010, 07:08:03 PM
Oh yes, there are rooms full of grey areas for the laws, especially on the telepathy front.  Sending a message by mental route is perfectly acceptable.  Maybe getting a surface "feel" of a person is still in the grey areas (I doubt the wardens agree).  But actually digging into their mind looking for information is law breaker, wizard template or not.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Crion on July 07, 2010, 07:12:17 PM
Oh yes, there are rooms full of grey areas for the laws, especially on the telepathy front.  Sending a message by mental route is perfectly acceptable.  Maybe getting a surface "feel" of a person is still in the grey areas (I doubt the wardens agree).  But actually digging into their mind looking for information is law breaker, wizard template or not.

I'm going to second this idea. There is a TON of grey area (as we've seen in the books), but I think this idea is a pretty good guideline to consider, especially if the character is just "sensitive" enough to "hear" surface thoughts.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Steed on July 07, 2010, 07:16:54 PM
I agree with Luminos on this one.  There have been several mentions in the books of Wardens paying little check-up visits to minor talents and focused practitioners in the books.  Some of them become decidedly less cooperative with Harry once he dons the grey cloak because of this, in fact.  So it doesn't really matter whether you're a wizard, sorcerer, or just a waitress at a bar that hears people's thoughts sometimes.  If you deliberately go digging around in someone's noggin looking for anything, you're probably violating the law.

Harry has also proven there can be grey area.  If you're in there because somebody else borked up someone's mind and you want to see what was done, that might be grey area, especially if you have some authority, like Harry did when he went spelunking in the minds of Molly's friends.  He notes that it's a grey area during that process.

So using it solely to communicate?  Acceptable, and even a good tactical decision for when verbal or physical communication is unavailable or a bad idea.  Using it to excavate some mook's mind so you know what that dark sorcerer did to him?  Grey area.  Plucking specific memories out from the mind of an uncooperative witness?  Lawbreaker.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: austinmonster on July 07, 2010, 07:22:58 PM
I think the thing he is wondering is not weather it's a lawbreaker type thing, but weather the system can handle it.  It really depends on what he wants his psychic to be able to do?  Reading surface thoughts?  Defending against mental intrusions?  Obfuscation and misdirection?  full-on psychic assaults?

Protip: Tell your partner to loosen up a little bit, maybe get him a beer before you start GMing.  FATE is a fairly loose system that gives the players a great deal of control over their character.  Heck, in what other system can you control what happens when you loose a fight?  How many other systems allow you such control over the story and NPCs?  (decelerations and compels).  It's by no means free-form, but to my myopic eyes, it all seems to be about taking good ideas and running with them.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 07, 2010, 08:20:12 PM
Unfortunate, the beer option is out; I can't drink, and he doesn't...

The telepathy ultimately derives from the Fae side of the fence (a variant group of changelings).  The psychic powers really aren't magic, although I agree a Warden might not see it that way.  So, the Lawbreaker flaw doesn't apply (although, again, the White Council may see things differently..)

The primary use of telepathy is communication (crosses language barriers) and sensing lies (using Conviction).  It can be used to read minds...but the user takes a point of Mental stress for trying (it's opposed automatically) and a point of Mental stress per fact uncovered.  This stress would last for some time (at least for the remainder of the story).  As for psychic assualt...not at the refresh level we're considering starting at...:)

And the group that actually has considerable capability with these psychic powers has been avoiding the White Council and its Wardens for some time...although the proposed character doesn't know that yet.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: luminos on July 07, 2010, 08:28:21 PM
okay, yeah, that all sounds great.  I would put up some resistance to mortals have full mind reading without law breaking, but the mechanics for it seem pretty cool, and it should make for a fun campaign.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Steed on July 07, 2010, 08:29:18 PM
The telepathy ultimately derives from the Fae side of the fence (a variant group of changelings).  The psychic powers really aren't magic, although I agree a Warden might not see it that way.  So, the Lawbreaker flaw doesn't apply (although, again, the White Council may see things differently..)

If it's not mortal magic, the Wardens won't be operating quite the same as they would with a Minor Talent or a Focused Practitioner.  If this is a Changeling using a Fae ability, then they don't have the jurisdiction to police that.  A local Warden could engineer an accidental meeting out on the street or something and just helpfully mention that there is a Warden around to handle any supernatural beasties that decide to go bump as a subtle hint not to go all mind-controlly, but other than that, they aren't going to do much.  They're Wizard Cops, not Faerie Cops.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: luminos on July 07, 2010, 08:43:58 PM
Technically, they are cops for all mortals.  The 7th law for instance, applies even to people who have no connection to the magic community.  And changelings still get counted as technical mortals.  They get jerked around by both their parent courts and by any mortal authorities.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Steed on July 07, 2010, 08:52:06 PM
Technically, they are cops for all mortals.  The 7th law for instance, applies even to people who have no connection to the magic community.  And changelings still get counted as technical mortals.  They get jerked around by both their parent courts and by any mortal authorities.

The 7th Law applying to anything less than every living being would be insanity.  I don't care who you are, if you see somebody about to screw with the gates you kill them.  Nobody wants Cthulhu showing up for cheesecake brunch, man.

Of course Changelings are subject to mortal authorities.  Wizards are too, although there ain't a prison around that could hold an unscrupulous one.  The Wardens aren't mortal authorities, though.  It wasn't a party of Wardens that arrested Bundy, for instance.  They police mortal magic, which is different than Marcone's criminal empire and also different than a Changeling using one of his/her natural Fae abilities.  I can absolutely see the Wardens taking an interest if a Changeling is sliding toward the Evil Faerie end of things or victimizing mortals, but I think Winter or Summer might have something to say about the Wardens hacking off a Changeling's head for minor uses of telepathy.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 07, 2010, 08:53:21 PM
One of the aspect of the campaign world I'm intending to explore is the fifth A from the short story in the game books.  The White Council has decreed itself the sole arbiter of magical laws and behavior for all mortals.  They've managed to do this by virtue of raw power; they control the best trained, most powerful wizards on Earth. So any objections from 'minor talents', 'focused practicioners' and other, more obscure mortals with talents (which MUST be magical...what other explanation could there be?) can be safely ignored.

After all, it's not like anyone who objects can actually do anything about it, right? :)
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Ravangames on July 07, 2010, 08:54:36 PM
Technically, they are cops for all mortals.  The 7th law for instance, applies even to people who have no connection to the magic community.  And changelings still get counted as technical mortals.  They get jerked around by both their parent courts and by any mortal authorities.
I think this would fall in the Grey Area... however the laws could be interpreted to apply to all PCs....



I like the mechanics you are using although, I would just only apply the 2nd stress to any information garnered after the 1st.... and let the stress go away as normal with all stress...

Or you can just use the same mechanics as an evocation, with extra shifts = extra information.... or something like that.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 07, 2010, 09:00:42 PM
Actually, I'll have to read how Consequences work and see if they might work better.  I want some reason in-game why the character is reluctant to use their power willy-nilly.  (The player will definitely role-play it that way...)
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 08, 2010, 07:23:46 PM
This is a campaign/rules/style conflict.

My take on the game is that it includes everything we've seen; but that there's a lot of room for expansion. (i.e. Harry hasn't seen everything in the supernatural world...or the real world, for that matter).

One of the players (who's been thinking about being a co-GM) is big on Rules As Written and doesn't want anything in the campaign that's not in the books.

The big sticking point is psychic powers.  One player wants to run a psychic with powers not listed in the game book.  The possible GM/player is very much against this.

The power in real question is telepathy, a standard psychic (if not seen in the Dresdenverse) power.  With proper limitations, I felt that it wouldn't unbalance the game, nor ruin the adventures I had vaguely in mind.  He feels very much otherwise.

Primarily, I see the Fate system as allowing a lot of cool things for the players; of me saying Yes as much as possible when a player wants something (and explaining why the game will be better for the group when I say No when that's required).  Am I reading something that isn't there?

Your biggest issue is you and your co-GM do not see eye to eye. When I started my game. I said right out I was using the books and as much canon as I can but Albuquerque there is not on the area other than one short story about Ghouls and the Warden Training Facility.

So I said right up front I would be adding in other information that is not in the canon. Harry and his allies do not experience everything in the Dresdenverse in fact reading much of the side notes from Bob and Harry in the books actually mention that. The most famous one is in the Focused Practioner Template Section, where Bob and Harry talk about Chronomancers Your World pg. 77. Harry states he never heard of them. Bob replies that of course you have not.

Now that is not canon because it is not in any novel or short story by Jim Butcher, but the books states they Chronomancers can exist. What about Werebears? Werefoxes? Only weres we have seen are Werewolves up to Small Favor, but there are other shapeshifters just Harry has not met them yet. So your co-GM would ban a player wanting to play a Werefox because they are not in the Canon which is the books and short stories? What if I wanted to play something from Wanted, a Kineticmancer who can control bullets?

The biggest break in canon on this is this: No character in a roleplaying game is canon on a game based on other media such as a book series or a movie. The character created is not canon even if they are a vanilla mortal because they are not part of the general Canon of the story. When you are running a game based on a book or a movie like Dresden Files you are already breaking canon. You are running your own ideas that are not the creators in this case Jim Butcher's. Hell even this FATE system is not Canon it is is just authorized by Jim Butcher with his input.

Telepaths I can see existing just off of what we have read just Harry has not met them. I can see them not favorites of the Laws of Magic and the Wardens might even hunt them down to warn or execute.

That is the biggest part people have a hard time letting go of both GMs and Players that these games do break canon. What is nice is these books are up to Small Favor, those of us that have read Turn Coat and Changes know what is going to happen and can plan accordingly to make it feel like canon but in the end it is not.

I have run RPGs in the Star Wars Universe, the Star Trek Universe, Marvel Universe, DC Universe and the biggest trick is to let people let go of their preconceptions of what they have seen and known.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 08, 2010, 08:44:21 PM
I was more or less getting a general sense of the community re the powers thing; I realize the campaign-style issue can't be solved over the Internet...

Part of the problem is that the reason we want to play the game is that the universe created by Butcher appeals to us; we like the books, and we'd like to be part of the story.  But as much as I respect Butcher as a writer, I'd like to add more to a campaign, because he's writing (ultimately) for himself, whereas as a GM I'm part of a collaborative effort.  If Butcher
(click to show/hide)
no one except the publisher and editor get a say.  If I try to do that, I'm going to have to convince my players it would be a cool addition to the story.  By the same token, if a player wants to add something to the campaign, but another player immediately goes "No, you can't do that; it's not in the books" that kinda ruins the mood of the game imho.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: austinmonster on July 09, 2010, 04:19:05 PM
Please don't take the comment about giving him a beer too literally.  If you drink, don't game, and if you game, don't drink. <laughs>  That's what the Deck of many things is made for after all.

Perhaps if he is going to co-gm, then perhaps giving him control over another PART of the game would be best?  Let him run combats, or let him stat the bad guys?  Maybe just let him keep track of everything?  If you can quietly shoehorn him out of character creation, then this whole issue becomes moot.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 09, 2010, 04:43:14 PM
They need the same vision and agree before hand what works and what does not. I have co GMed with people and we see eye to eye and I have seen games where the co-GMs do not see eye to eye it causes arguments usually tearing apart the game. It adds too much drama.

You need to have a cohesive unit between the both of you to run the game smoothly. If not then this is a bad idea for you.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: austinmonster on July 09, 2010, 07:26:25 PM
Touche, UltraTroll.  Good point indeed.

It looks like he's in a situation where I don't see a clear awnser.  I think the best idea might be having him take the reigns and having his co-GM take a smaller role, like Creature Feature (NPC GM). 

If they can't get on the same page, might as well put them in different books, yes?
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 09, 2010, 07:32:47 PM
Not being touche I am trying to help. Been game mastering for 20 years done it all practically. Co-GMing is tricky my current Dresden Game one of my players is the co GM I am doing all the work. He likes what I came up with and where I generally will be going. He has no clue where but he knows I am adding in things Harry never experienced so far and in Butcher's world there are a plenty.

I honestly think he and his co-GM from his own description of the situation do not see eye to eye and where it should go and this will damage or destroy his game.

He asked for help and I am stating my opinion from what I have seen and experienced.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: black omega on July 09, 2010, 07:40:02 PM
Not being touche I am trying to help.

touche
   1.
Main Entry: tou·ché
Pronunciation: \tü-ˈshā\
Function: interjection
Etymology: French, from past participle of toucher to touch, from Old French tuchier
Date: 1904

—used to acknowledge a hit in fencing or the success or appropriateness of an argument, an accusation, or a witty point
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 09, 2010, 08:37:11 PM
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Ultra.  This co-GM thing isn't going to work if his style of gaming is that different from mine.  Unfortunate, because we both enjoy the books, we've gamed together for some time, and we're friends...and this is the sort of thing, even handled correctly, that can easily lead to hard feelings.

It's not that he's wrong and I'm right; it's a fundamental difference in approach.  His style would be fine for the right group of players...but I don't think (judging from the basic concepts people have come up with so far) we have a group that will work for him.  ("Best Cat Burglar in the City" wouldn't be a problem...but "Novice Were-Jaguar" with the trouble "Failed Emissary" would be.)  Ironically, he should be fine as a player.

It just means I don't get to be a player...again.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 09, 2010, 08:50:05 PM
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Ultra.  This co-GM thing isn't going to work if his style of gaming is that different from mine.  Unfortunate, because we both enjoy the books, we've gamed together for some time, and we're friends...and this is the sort of thing, even handled correctly, that can easily lead to hard feelings.

It's not that he's wrong and I'm right; it's a fundamental difference in approach.  His style would be fine for the right group of players...but I don't think (judging from the basic concepts people have come up with so far) we have a group that will work for him.  ("Best Cat Burglar in the City" wouldn't be a problem...but "Novice Were-Jaguar" with the trouble "Failed Emissary" would be.)  Ironically, he should be fine as a player.

It just means I don't get to be a player...again.

My suggestion is see if your friend will run his own game in a different city, what my group has done in the past when something like this happens.

He can run his version and you can run yours and some of your players get the joy of playing two games.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: TheMouse on July 09, 2010, 09:16:55 PM
Please don't take the comment about giving him a beer too literally.  If you drink, don't game, and if you game, don't drink. <laughs>  That's what the Deck of many things is made for after all.

I generally agree with this, but would like to note an exception.

There was one game where the players -- myself included -- sipped alcohol, while the GM did not. The result of this was basically that we hammed it up a little more and made a couple of decisions that were interesting rather than intelligent. It was actually a pretty fun experience.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Remy Sinclair on July 10, 2010, 03:47:09 AM
I was in a game where our GM got drunk it was funny. He kept asking me if I finished making dinner yet. The one he had an hour ago. It was a fun game.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Erich on July 13, 2010, 11:39:42 AM
Hi,
I'm the other GM, and in my defense I was mostly concerned with the laws of magic (on the story side), and breaking a mystery by reading someone's mind (on the fun side).
That said, I have no real objection to psychic communication or reading surface thoughts. That could actually lead to some very interesting role play situations.

DS: Hi Mr. Bad guy. I'm Detective Smith and this is my partner Detective Weston, we need to ask you some questions.
DW: ++ask him where he was last night++
DS: So where were you last night?
BG: I was at the bar all night (oh jeez I better not mention the warehouse)
DW: ++ he was in a warehouse part of the night++
DS: You wern't in a warehouse on the lower east side?
etc.

This is something we used in a Champions game and it worked fine.


I'm just not thrilled about the idea of a psychic going up to a suspect and ripping all of the evidence from their minds, kinda ruins the mystery thing.
And I still say that we are bumping into the 4th(?) law of magic, psychics are just untrained minor talents.


By the way Bruce I DO drink cider  ;D
-E
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: CMEast on July 13, 2010, 02:26:57 PM
Why not give the player a modified version of the sight for mind reading? There's plenty of risk in trying to read minds that way and the results won't necessarily ruin a plot. For any person he tries to mind-read, simply make a list of aspects the PC might possibly discover (a few related to the plot, a few relating to that character so it can be used as blackmail/persuasion fodder) and then add a few random surface thoughts for flavour.

Alternatively, use the psychometry rules (YS173) and increase the difficulty.

Either way, don't reveal the difficulty for the roles. Instead, always give information but make it inaccurate or misleading if they fail. Let them know that the information is often suspect and so even on a great roll, they may not take full advantage of the information.

Then just add a minor ability like: [-1] Telepathy. You can pick up thoughts directed at you with an alertness roll, and broadcast information with a roll of conviction or similar. Obviously for minor uses you can skip the roll, but the chance of failure during tense situations can be fun. Especially when the PC broadcasts their plans to the enemy :D
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 13, 2010, 05:43:01 PM
Hi...I was wondering when you'd discover the forum, Erich...

Well, the character isn't using mortal magic, and isn't a mortal (strictly speaking). So, the Laws don't apply (although a Warden might make a mistake...)  This is my take on the power.

My basic concept was to treat the actual 'mind-reading' power like Evocation.  So, one mental stress for attempting it, +1 stress if the target is inhuman (RCV, etc.), target defends with Discipline, each shift grants one piece of information/aspect (telepath has to state what information they're looking for, and they get just that), failure equals no further attempts vs that target that scene.  Consequences can be taken to avoid stress per normal.  Example:  players are trying to discover if thug x killed someone important.  Thug has Mediocre Discipline.  Telepath shudders a bit, and risks a probe, gets two shifts.  They discover if the thug actually did kill the vip (but no details...if, for example, the thug was there but didn't shoot the guy, they don't learn that) and one aspect (Just Following Orders).

Obviously, high Discipline targets (who are going to know important info) are going to be harder to probe...  And any character with actual mental defenses is going to know what just happened (or what was attempted) and is likely to be EXTREMELY unhappy.

I think the above should prevent rampant mind-reading in the campaign (and actually, the person likely to be making the suggestions to mind-read everyone isn't the player who's taking the power, imo...need I say more?).  It should also make the ability useful without wrecking mysteries/intrigue. 

And I'll revise my earlier statement, then.  I can't drink beer, and you SHOULDN'T be drinking...since you're trying to get back in shape to whack people with nasty pointy things.  (Or is it long pointy things, or nasty blunt things?) :)

Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Erich on July 13, 2010, 07:03:22 PM
That would be well made nasty long blunt things.
Oh yeah, and dodging the same.
-E
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 13, 2010, 08:35:14 PM
Modification...more shifts are required for more detailed information.

So, Yes/No/I Don't Know/Tampered With is one shift for a answer.

To answer, say, "How long have you hated this guy?", two shifts.

"Why do you hate this guy?" "What kind of thing tampered with this guy's mind?"  3+ shifts.

Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: KOFFEYKID on July 13, 2010, 08:58:24 PM
Reading the Surface [-1]. You are a natural psychic, and can read the surface thoughts of individuals around you. This is not a violation of the laws of magic, as the thoughts "radiate" out from the thinkers mind. You may use discipline to defend against deceit attacks and maneuvers instead of the usual skill whenever the GM deems it appropriate. Also, you gain a bonus in social situations when you can read someone's surface thoughts, add +2 to all of your social rolls against somebody who you are reading.

This pretty much does what you want it to do right? You can use your "mind (discipline)" to detect falsehood, and it helps a bit in social situations.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: luminos on July 13, 2010, 09:00:02 PM
+2 to all social rolls is more than a -1 power.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: KOFFEYKID on July 13, 2010, 09:00:44 PM
hmm, take a look at Flesh Mask.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Bruce Coulson on July 13, 2010, 09:05:27 PM
Actually, the psychic power template I'm working with is supposed to be more flexible...closer to Channelling, say.  The psychics only get one type of power (telepathy, esp, psychokinesis), but can do a lot with that ability.

Your power does look good as a minor talent, though; consider it swiped and modified to fit. :)
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: luminos on July 13, 2010, 09:30:03 PM
flesh mask is +2 to social actions that rely on appearance, a hell of a lot more focused than all social actions.  And it has several limiting factors (ripped away in a fight, doesn't work if the person knows what you are). 
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 09:33:47 PM
It does also allow the whole 'flesh pocket concealment' thing, though.

Personally, I'd allow someone to take Idealized Appearance without all the other Flesh Mask stuff as a -1 Power. Now this version looks a bit overpowered (a skill swap AND a +2 under certain circumstances), but the +2 alone (only vs. people you're currently reading) seems about fair if you skip the skill substitution.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: luminos on July 13, 2010, 09:37:20 PM
who you are reading needs to be more focused.  Wording it that way makes it so you can say you are reading whoever you are applying the action to, which is the same as +2 with no conditions.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: KOFFEYKID on July 13, 2010, 09:39:04 PM
/shrug, the flesh mask power has something similar to a skill swap in "what lies beneath", letting you use deceit to hide a gun aimed at your opponent for example (instead of stealth). My power has limiting factors that are up to the GM (like the power says, you can read the surface whenever the Gm deems appropriate, and if he deems it inappropriate then tough cookies).
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Deadmanwalking on July 13, 2010, 09:45:11 PM
who you are reading needs to be more focused.  Wording it that way makes it so you can say you are reading whoever you are applying the action to, which is the same as +2 with no conditions.

Yeah, some sort of restriction needs to be made explicit. Maybe it can only be focused on one person at a time?

/shrug, the flesh mask power has something similar to a skill swap in "what lies beneath", letting you use deceit to hide a gun aimed at your opponent for example (instead of stealth).

Nope. Concealing small items is always Deceit, Flesh Mask does let you use Stealth instead, though. Which is nice. On the other hand, Flesh Mask has significant downsides which your power really doesn't. 

My power has limiting factors that are up to the GM (like the power says, you can read the surface whenever the Gm deems appropriate, and if he deems it inappropriate then tough cookies).

I'm still not sure if that's enough to justify the skill swap AND the +2, and it certainly needs to be made more explicit in the power description.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: KOFFEYKID on July 13, 2010, 09:49:13 PM
How is this?

Reading the Surface [-1]. You are a natural psychic, and can read the surface thoughts of individuals around you. This is not a violation of the laws of magic, as the thoughts "radiate" out from the thinkers mind. You may use discipline to defend against deceit attacks and maneuvers instead of the usual skill, and possibly in place of other skills whenever the GM deems it appropriate. On a successful defense against a social attack while using "Reading the Surface" you may place the aspect "Open Book" on the attacker. This aspect lasts for one exchange (not sticky) and may be tagged for a bonus on any other social roll.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: CMEast on July 14, 2010, 11:16:21 AM
Or you could tie the +2 bonus to social rolls to pure mortals only, wizards are too disciplined to give out surface thoughts and the mental processes of other supernatural creatures are too alien. If the GM wants he might allow you to pick up hints as to the kind of supernatural from the jumbled mess of static given out; for instance the demonic hunger of vampires or the bestial cries of were-creatures, but I wouldn't make that part of the skill in case it'd affect the plot.

That way the +2 is very useful, and yet appropriately limited in scope.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: Nomad on July 14, 2010, 01:09:29 PM
maybe add a downside like "distracted" as a non sticky aspect to the user (or worse) as Harry sometimes gets with his sight.

Now that I think about it, you could pattern it on the "Sight" power, dealing with hearing (to surface / radiating thoughts) instead of seeing...
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: KOFFEYKID on July 14, 2010, 01:28:34 PM
Nah, Im happy with it as is, feel free to make your own version, though.
Title: Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
Post by: JosephKell on July 14, 2010, 06:33:29 PM
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Ultra.  This co-GM thing isn't going to work if his style of gaming is that different from mine.  Unfortunate, because we both enjoy the books, we've gamed together for some time, and we're friends...and this is the sort of thing, even handled correctly, that can easily lead to hard feelings.

It's not that he's wrong and I'm right; it's a fundamental difference in approach.  His style would be fine for the right group of players...but I don't think (judging from the basic concepts people have come up with so far) we have a group that will work for him.  ("Best Cat Burglar in the City" wouldn't be a problem...but "Novice Were-Jaguar" with the trouble "Failed Emissary" would be.)  Ironically, he should be fine as a player.

It just means I don't get to be a player...again.
Never being a player is a small price to pay to avoid a close minded storyteller/GM/DM/whatever.  Feel free to deviate from canon.

I promise Jim Butcher and Evil Hatters aren't going to show up to steal your books and dice.

On surface thoughts.  You could require the person to be in a rattled state (their mind is "screaming").  I.e. the target has been taken out with social or mental stress (or conceded), has a any social or mental consequence, or a physical consequence of at least moderate level.