Author Topic: Conflict with Campaign Style  (Read 8355 times)

Offline Steed

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2010, 08:29:18 PM »
The telepathy ultimately derives from the Fae side of the fence (a variant group of changelings).  The psychic powers really aren't magic, although I agree a Warden might not see it that way.  So, the Lawbreaker flaw doesn't apply (although, again, the White Council may see things differently..)

If it's not mortal magic, the Wardens won't be operating quite the same as they would with a Minor Talent or a Focused Practitioner.  If this is a Changeling using a Fae ability, then they don't have the jurisdiction to police that.  A local Warden could engineer an accidental meeting out on the street or something and just helpfully mention that there is a Warden around to handle any supernatural beasties that decide to go bump as a subtle hint not to go all mind-controlly, but other than that, they aren't going to do much.  They're Wizard Cops, not Faerie Cops.

Offline luminos

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2010, 08:43:58 PM »
Technically, they are cops for all mortals.  The 7th law for instance, applies even to people who have no connection to the magic community.  And changelings still get counted as technical mortals.  They get jerked around by both their parent courts and by any mortal authorities.
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Offline Steed

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2010, 08:52:06 PM »
Technically, they are cops for all mortals.  The 7th law for instance, applies even to people who have no connection to the magic community.  And changelings still get counted as technical mortals.  They get jerked around by both their parent courts and by any mortal authorities.

The 7th Law applying to anything less than every living being would be insanity.  I don't care who you are, if you see somebody about to screw with the gates you kill them.  Nobody wants Cthulhu showing up for cheesecake brunch, man.

Of course Changelings are subject to mortal authorities.  Wizards are too, although there ain't a prison around that could hold an unscrupulous one.  The Wardens aren't mortal authorities, though.  It wasn't a party of Wardens that arrested Bundy, for instance.  They police mortal magic, which is different than Marcone's criminal empire and also different than a Changeling using one of his/her natural Fae abilities.  I can absolutely see the Wardens taking an interest if a Changeling is sliding toward the Evil Faerie end of things or victimizing mortals, but I think Winter or Summer might have something to say about the Wardens hacking off a Changeling's head for minor uses of telepathy.

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2010, 08:53:21 PM »
One of the aspect of the campaign world I'm intending to explore is the fifth A from the short story in the game books.  The White Council has decreed itself the sole arbiter of magical laws and behavior for all mortals.  They've managed to do this by virtue of raw power; they control the best trained, most powerful wizards on Earth. So any objections from 'minor talents', 'focused practicioners' and other, more obscure mortals with talents (which MUST be magical...what other explanation could there be?) can be safely ignored.

After all, it's not like anyone who objects can actually do anything about it, right? :)
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Offline Ravangames

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2010, 08:54:36 PM »
Technically, they are cops for all mortals.  The 7th law for instance, applies even to people who have no connection to the magic community.  And changelings still get counted as technical mortals.  They get jerked around by both their parent courts and by any mortal authorities.
I think this would fall in the Grey Area... however the laws could be interpreted to apply to all PCs....



I like the mechanics you are using although, I would just only apply the 2nd stress to any information garnered after the 1st.... and let the stress go away as normal with all stress...

Or you can just use the same mechanics as an evocation, with extra shifts = extra information.... or something like that.

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2010, 09:00:42 PM »
Actually, I'll have to read how Consequences work and see if they might work better.  I want some reason in-game why the character is reluctant to use their power willy-nilly.  (The player will definitely role-play it that way...)
You're the spirit of a nation, all right.  But it's NOT America.

Offline Remy Sinclair

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2010, 07:23:46 PM »
This is a campaign/rules/style conflict.

My take on the game is that it includes everything we've seen; but that there's a lot of room for expansion. (i.e. Harry hasn't seen everything in the supernatural world...or the real world, for that matter).

One of the players (who's been thinking about being a co-GM) is big on Rules As Written and doesn't want anything in the campaign that's not in the books.

The big sticking point is psychic powers.  One player wants to run a psychic with powers not listed in the game book.  The possible GM/player is very much against this.

The power in real question is telepathy, a standard psychic (if not seen in the Dresdenverse) power.  With proper limitations, I felt that it wouldn't unbalance the game, nor ruin the adventures I had vaguely in mind.  He feels very much otherwise.

Primarily, I see the Fate system as allowing a lot of cool things for the players; of me saying Yes as much as possible when a player wants something (and explaining why the game will be better for the group when I say No when that's required).  Am I reading something that isn't there?

Your biggest issue is you and your co-GM do not see eye to eye. When I started my game. I said right out I was using the books and as much canon as I can but Albuquerque there is not on the area other than one short story about Ghouls and the Warden Training Facility.

So I said right up front I would be adding in other information that is not in the canon. Harry and his allies do not experience everything in the Dresdenverse in fact reading much of the side notes from Bob and Harry in the books actually mention that. The most famous one is in the Focused Practioner Template Section, where Bob and Harry talk about Chronomancers Your World pg. 77. Harry states he never heard of them. Bob replies that of course you have not.

Now that is not canon because it is not in any novel or short story by Jim Butcher, but the books states they Chronomancers can exist. What about Werebears? Werefoxes? Only weres we have seen are Werewolves up to Small Favor, but there are other shapeshifters just Harry has not met them yet. So your co-GM would ban a player wanting to play a Werefox because they are not in the Canon which is the books and short stories? What if I wanted to play something from Wanted, a Kineticmancer who can control bullets?

The biggest break in canon on this is this: No character in a roleplaying game is canon on a game based on other media such as a book series or a movie. The character created is not canon even if they are a vanilla mortal because they are not part of the general Canon of the story. When you are running a game based on a book or a movie like Dresden Files you are already breaking canon. You are running your own ideas that are not the creators in this case Jim Butcher's. Hell even this FATE system is not Canon it is is just authorized by Jim Butcher with his input.

Telepaths I can see existing just off of what we have read just Harry has not met them. I can see them not favorites of the Laws of Magic and the Wardens might even hunt them down to warn or execute.

That is the biggest part people have a hard time letting go of both GMs and Players that these games do break canon. What is nice is these books are up to Small Favor, those of us that have read Turn Coat and Changes know what is going to happen and can plan accordingly to make it feel like canon but in the end it is not.

I have run RPGs in the Star Wars Universe, the Star Trek Universe, Marvel Universe, DC Universe and the biggest trick is to let people let go of their preconceptions of what they have seen and known.

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2010, 08:44:21 PM »
I was more or less getting a general sense of the community re the powers thing; I realize the campaign-style issue can't be solved over the Internet...

Part of the problem is that the reason we want to play the game is that the universe created by Butcher appeals to us; we like the books, and we'd like to be part of the story.  But as much as I respect Butcher as a writer, I'd like to add more to a campaign, because he's writing (ultimately) for himself, whereas as a GM I'm part of a collaborative effort.  If Butcher
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no one except the publisher and editor get a say.  If I try to do that, I'm going to have to convince my players it would be a cool addition to the story.  By the same token, if a player wants to add something to the campaign, but another player immediately goes "No, you can't do that; it's not in the books" that kinda ruins the mood of the game imho.
You're the spirit of a nation, all right.  But it's NOT America.

Offline austinmonster

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2010, 04:19:05 PM »
Please don't take the comment about giving him a beer too literally.  If you drink, don't game, and if you game, don't drink. <laughs>  That's what the Deck of many things is made for after all.

Perhaps if he is going to co-gm, then perhaps giving him control over another PART of the game would be best?  Let him run combats, or let him stat the bad guys?  Maybe just let him keep track of everything?  If you can quietly shoehorn him out of character creation, then this whole issue becomes moot.

Offline Remy Sinclair

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2010, 04:43:14 PM »
They need the same vision and agree before hand what works and what does not. I have co GMed with people and we see eye to eye and I have seen games where the co-GMs do not see eye to eye it causes arguments usually tearing apart the game. It adds too much drama.

You need to have a cohesive unit between the both of you to run the game smoothly. If not then this is a bad idea for you.

Offline austinmonster

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2010, 07:26:25 PM »
Touche, UltraTroll.  Good point indeed.

It looks like he's in a situation where I don't see a clear awnser.  I think the best idea might be having him take the reigns and having his co-GM take a smaller role, like Creature Feature (NPC GM). 

If they can't get on the same page, might as well put them in different books, yes?

Offline Remy Sinclair

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2010, 07:32:47 PM »
Not being touche I am trying to help. Been game mastering for 20 years done it all practically. Co-GMing is tricky my current Dresden Game one of my players is the co GM I am doing all the work. He likes what I came up with and where I generally will be going. He has no clue where but he knows I am adding in things Harry never experienced so far and in Butcher's world there are a plenty.

I honestly think he and his co-GM from his own description of the situation do not see eye to eye and where it should go and this will damage or destroy his game.

He asked for help and I am stating my opinion from what I have seen and experienced.

Offline black omega

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2010, 07:40:02 PM »
Not being touche I am trying to help.

touche
   1.
Main Entry: tou·ché
Pronunciation: \tü-ˈshā\
Function: interjection
Etymology: French, from past participle of toucher to touch, from Old French tuchier
Date: 1904

—used to acknowledge a hit in fencing or the success or appropriateness of an argument, an accusation, or a witty point

Offline Bruce Coulson

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2010, 08:37:11 PM »
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Ultra.  This co-GM thing isn't going to work if his style of gaming is that different from mine.  Unfortunate, because we both enjoy the books, we've gamed together for some time, and we're friends...and this is the sort of thing, even handled correctly, that can easily lead to hard feelings.

It's not that he's wrong and I'm right; it's a fundamental difference in approach.  His style would be fine for the right group of players...but I don't think (judging from the basic concepts people have come up with so far) we have a group that will work for him.  ("Best Cat Burglar in the City" wouldn't be a problem...but "Novice Were-Jaguar" with the trouble "Failed Emissary" would be.)  Ironically, he should be fine as a player.

It just means I don't get to be a player...again.
You're the spirit of a nation, all right.  But it's NOT America.

Offline Remy Sinclair

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Re: Conflict with Campaign Style
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2010, 08:50:05 PM »
Unfortunately, I have to agree with Ultra.  This co-GM thing isn't going to work if his style of gaming is that different from mine.  Unfortunate, because we both enjoy the books, we've gamed together for some time, and we're friends...and this is the sort of thing, even handled correctly, that can easily lead to hard feelings.

It's not that he's wrong and I'm right; it's a fundamental difference in approach.  His style would be fine for the right group of players...but I don't think (judging from the basic concepts people have come up with so far) we have a group that will work for him.  ("Best Cat Burglar in the City" wouldn't be a problem...but "Novice Were-Jaguar" with the trouble "Failed Emissary" would be.)  Ironically, he should be fine as a player.

It just means I don't get to be a player...again.

My suggestion is see if your friend will run his own game in a different city, what my group has done in the past when something like this happens.

He can run his version and you can run yours and some of your players get the joy of playing two games.