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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Lavecki121 on February 20, 2013, 06:43:14 AM
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Ok so if I create a block with an enchanted item am I allowed to extend the block per normal rules? Same question with a rote spell.
Would it be reasonable to make a rote spell specifically designed to extend the life of a block set up in this manner?
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No, you can't do this with an Enchanted Item. They're too set, for that.
Rotes are a bit more flexible however, and you most certainly may do this for them. And a Rote to extend any spell you like seems reasonable enough, yeah.
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No, you can't do this with an Enchanted Item. They're too set, for that.
Rotes are a bit more flexible however, and you most certainly may do this for them. And a Rote to extend any spell you like seems reasonable enough, yeah.
Can you tell me where did you find the relevant rules that say this?
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Can you tell me where did you find the relevant rules that say this?
The second's strongly implied by the entire way Rotes and adding duration works. There's simply absolutely no reason for it not to work. Rotes make a spel have to be cast the same way every time...but nothing says you can't modify it the next turn with an entirely separate Evocation, y'know?
The first is less clear, but consistent with my understanding of the limitations of Enchanted Items. They don't count as actual Evocations in any sense and aren't handled the same way...why could you pump power into them like that?
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I disagree (on the enchanted item bit). There's not a rule for this explicitly saying yes or no. I had it come up in my games and here's how I ruled it.
If you use an enchanted item in place of a defense roll, you cannot then extend the block. The reason for this is action economy. I'm not going to let you get what is essentially an extra action. The fluff justification is that you reflexively triggered the enchantment, and thus didn't have the control over the effect you would have if you deliberately cast it.
If you use an enchanted item as your standard action for your turn, then on your next turn you may cast an evocation to pump duration into the spell effect. The mechanical reason for this is that you're still spending two turns and sufficient resources on one defensive action. Evocation blocks for personal defense are typically a tactical mistake anyway (you could be hitting your opponent with all those shifts instead). The fluff reason is that a spell is a spell, no matter where it came from. You can use your magic to modify the spell once it's cast (enchanted items can still not be modified before or during casting, however).
Again, there is no RAW in this. Either interpretation is just an extrapolation of RAI.
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I wouldn't allow it for enchanted items personally. One reason being if the RAW doesn't explicitly say you can do it, my answer is "no you can't do it" 9 times out of 10. Themeatically, enchanted items are pre-packaged spells that are charged up ahead of time. Also I wouldn't allow it because enchanted items don't just mimic evocation. They can also replicate Thaumaturgy. You could get around almost all the Thaum limititations if it were allowed.
Extending Rotes however falls into the 1/10 for me. Rotes still count as evocation and still follow all the same rote rules and applications once cast as far as I'm concerned.
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Right and once the spell is released, am I allowed to put more energy to sustain it. The spell is still the same no matter if it is in an enchanted item, a rote spell or I cast it myself. So shouldn't I be able to sustain it normally.
Additionally if I make a rote spell that breaks a law, and I already have the power, does the bonus I get from that apply when casting the rote. IE If I have a 5 discipline and I make a rote that is 6 power and it breaks law 6 every time it is used. I have lawbreaker 6 [-1] giving me +1 to spells that break this law. Do I have to take automatic fallout/backlash or does that +1 apply to the rote.
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Enchanted Items are by use...once a use has been expended, that's it. In thematic, magical terms, there is nothing to extend because their is no open connection to the magic - it's tied to the item, it's static.
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I dont believe that so much, the thematics at least. It is stored magical energy. My own magical energy too. However, instead of storing it inside myself I have externalized it. Once that magical energy is released it is out in the open and I should be able to push more of my own energy into it to extend its durration.
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Right, but it isn't just about energy, it's about the construct of that energy. The construct for the energy in say, Harry's duster, is static - it has what energy it has and does what it does. He can pour more energy into his shield evocation because he is actively maintaining the construct with his mind.
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What Dr.FunLove said. There are no indications that Enchanted items count as Evocations for any purpose, given they can duplicate Thaumaturgy as well, and it's thematically weird and inappropriate.
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Harry's duster is also armor. Im talking more of a zonewide block on movement vs all characters who are not myself. I dont see why I would be able to create an enchanted item that could last for 2 turns then die, but not be able to create one that lasts for 1 turn and try and extend that durration. It would be rediculous to try and cast that effect every round I wanted to have it extend.
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Because it isn't a spell as per the games mechanics but a spell-like effect. In the case of the item in question, it sounds like you need to balance between its strength and the number of uses you have available so you have most amount of flexibility with the item you can get for the cost you're willing to pay for it.
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Put it this way. If you're trying to push something by hand, and you want to keep pushing it, you can just put more effort into it.
If you're trying to push something with a motorized vehicle, and that vehicle runs out of power, you can't just keep the vehicle moving with your own effort.
The power in an enchanted item comes from the item, not the caster, and an enchanted item isn't made to focus the caster's power through it--and that's what such a duration enhancement would be, trying to cast through the item.
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Ah ok. But the consensus is that I can keep a rote spell going just not an enchanted item correct?
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Ah ok. But the consensus is that I can keep a rote spell going just not an enchanted item correct?
Yep. Rote spells are still you doing the pushing, as Mr. Death put it, so there's no reason you couldn't.
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Agreed. Thanks for the analogy Mr. Death!
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Quite welcome. It's what I do.
(Admittedly, the analogy breaks down when you remember that a practitioner can squeeze another use out of an enchanted item by spending mental stress, but what can you do?)
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Why we're all here debating merits of spells-casting and such, I have a point of interpretation I need cleared up: if I cast a spell, lets say a block, and I want to extend it by, lets say 3 exchanges how much mental stress would I take if my Conviction is 3 (control roll is made for the sake of the example).
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one if you succeed on the control. If you fail the control you have to take fallout/backlash and would only have the spell last the difference.
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Why we're all here debating merits of spells-casting and such, I have a point of interpretation I need cleared up: if I cast a spell, lets say a block, and I want to extend it by, lets say 3 exchanges how much mental stress would I take if my Conviction is 3 (control roll is made for the sake of the example).
Just one stress if I'm not mistaken. The power for that particular action doesn't exceed your conviction. You don't add it on top of the power already in the spell, since you've already successfully controlled and released it.
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Huh...well, my hats off to Lavecki for pointing this out to me in another thread. I've been a bit more heavy-handed with stress in my understanding of it.
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For those arguing that enchanted items shouldn't be extendable through normal means: could it be extended through another expenditure of the same item? Or would an enchanted item that extends one specific spell (either a rote or another enchanted item) be permissible?
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Extending the effect through another use of the item would be ok. It would just be very repetetive. Unless you made the item with at least a durration of 2 to begin with.
Not sure about the second one.
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IT'S possible, but as already pointed out, it's a bit redundant unless the effect was specifically made with extension in mind. As you're still using an action and a charge to do the exact same thing.
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I think the more appropriate analogy for an enchanted item is a windup toy, hence I disagree with the consensus. You wind it up and you let it go. As the toy goes on, you can keep winding it to keep it going.
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To rewind a wind up toy you will inevitably cease it's unwinding. In the analogy this means stopping the enchanted item, resetting it, and then activating it again. In no way are you extending the energy usage or output.
When you get an extra use out of an enchanted item by taking mental stress does that require an standard action? Assuming it does then at that point I see an enchanted item as identical to a Rote. You take mental stress and your turn for the exchange, the action economy is preserved and the energy is coming from inside you right then and there symbolized by the mental stress expenditure. If all that remains true then I don't think it would be a terrible problem to have the enchanted item go off with a regular use and then take a point of mental stress the next round to extend the effect. Maybe that gets wonky with the ability of enchanted items to do Thaumaturgy though, I don't know. Maybe you could mitigate it by expecting it to extend the effect for only a number of turns up to your Discipline like a real Rote focused on extending duration.
By the way, when you create a Rote that extends duration does it do that for only one designated spell or for any spell it's used on? I don't see it really being game breaking to do the latter except becoming incredibly useful in its utility.
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When you get an extra use out of an enchanted item by taking mental stress does that require an standard action?
Mechanically? No. Indeed, it takes no action. Activating the item takes whatever action it normally requires, completely unmodified by the fact you're taking Mental Stress.
Thematically, it represents, at least IMO, the sort of reflexive, possibly desperate, pouring of power into an empty well to make something work which doesn't quite have the juice to do so on it's own. It doesn't even work on items with uses left, and that makes perfect sense in my head. As does the inability to extend it as per Evocation. I know exactly why this makes sense to me, but I'm tired and words aren't coming. Maybe in the morning.
By the way, when you create a Rote that extends duration does it do that for only one designated spell or for any spell it's used on? I don't see it really being game breaking to do the latter except becoming incredibly useful in its utility.
The rules are unclear, so GM call, but I'd allow it. You have a limited number of Rotes after all, and burning one on this means you don't have it for anything else.
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That makes sense to me I was just wondering. Although I'm not sure I wold agree that it's always a desperate measure thing.
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That makes sense to me I was just wondering. Although I'm not sure I wold agree that it's always a desperate measure thing.
Oh, it's not. Just sometimes. Like I said: words...failing.
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Because it isn't a spell as per the games mechanics but a spell-like effect. In the case of the item in question, it sounds like you need to balance between its strength and the number of uses you have available so you have most amount of flexibility with the item you can get for the cost you're willing to pay for it.
This isn't D&D. There aren't any "spell-like effects." It's a spell. It may work differently, but it's a spell.
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EDITED: Agreed about distinction Mrmdubois!
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I would actually say that it's an item created to cast a spell.
I don't see why this is a distinction that needs to be important though.
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Hears my personal analysis:
An enchanted item is the embodiment of casting a specific spell, with all parameters fixed at creation.
A practitioner, as a distinct spell, can extend one of their own Evocations (and presumably refresh the duration of a Thaumaturgical spell) if that Evocation has not yet ended (including if it would end at the end of their turn).
When dealing with a spell created via an enchanted item, for many purposes, the enchanted item is the caster of the spell.
The practitioner wanting to extend it isn't the caster, and so can't extend it directly.
The enchanted item can only cast a singular fixed spell per slot.
Therefore, the only way to extend an enchanted items spell is by using a two slot enchanted item, with one slot being the base spell and the other spell being the extension of the first spell.
YMMV, if I were actually running a game, I'd likely let someone capable of reliably casting the spell from an enchanted item they made extend it.
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Hears my personal analysis:
An enchanted item is the embodiment of casting a specific spell, with all parameters fixed at creation.
A practitioner, as a distinct spell, can extend one of their own Evocations (and presumably refresh the duration of a Thaumaturgical spell) if that Evocation has not yet ended (including if it would end at the end of their turn).
When dealing with a spell created via an enchanted item, for many purposes, the enchanted item is the caster of the spell.
The practitioner wanting to extend it isn't the caster, and so can't extend it directly.
The enchanted item can only cast a singular fixed spell per slot.
This is a wonderfully internally-consistent rationalisation, so long as everyone remembers that it is just that.
It does not have sufficient backing in the rules to be said to be anything more than a house-rule answering a question left unclear by the rules.
That said, any game that I ran would likely implement a houserule to similar effect for all cases where a player did not present extraordinary narrative justification otherwise.