Enchanted and rote block extensions

[Lavecki121]

Ok so if I create a block with an enchanted item am I allowed to extend the block per normal rules? Same question with a rote spell.

Would it be reasonable to make a rote spell specifically designed to extend the life of a block set up in this manner?

[Deadmanwalking]

No, you can't do this with an Enchanted Item. They're too set, for that.

Rotes are a bit more flexible however, and you most certainly may do this for them. And a Rote to extend any spell you like seems reasonable enough, yeah.

[toturi]

No, you can't do this with an Enchanted Item. They're too set, for that.

Rotes are a bit more flexible however, and you most certainly may do this for them. And a Rote to extend any spell you like seems reasonable enough, yeah.

Can you tell me where did you find the relevant rules that say this?

[Deadmanwalking]

Can you tell me where did you find the relevant rules that say this?

The second's strongly implied by the entire way Rotes and adding duration works. There's simply absolutely no reason for it not to work. Rotes make a spel have to be cast the same way every time...but nothing says you can't modify it the next turn with an entirely separate Evocation, y'know?

The first is less clear, but consistent with my understanding of the limitations of Enchanted Items. They don't count as actual Evocations in any sense and aren't handled the same way...why could you pump power into them like that?

[InFerrumVeritas]

I disagree (on the enchanted item bit).  There's not a rule for this explicitly saying yes or no.  I had it come up in my games and here's how I ruled it.

If you use an enchanted item in place of a defense roll, you cannot then extend the block.  The reason for this is action economy.  I'm not going to let you get what is essentially an extra action. The fluff justification is that you reflexively triggered the enchantment, and thus didn't have the control over the effect you would have if you deliberately cast it.

If you use an enchanted item as your standard action for your turn, then on your next turn you may cast an evocation to pump duration into the spell effect.  The mechanical reason for this is that you're still spending two turns and sufficient resources on one defensive action.  Evocation blocks for personal defense are typically a tactical mistake anyway (you could be hitting your opponent with all those shifts instead).  The fluff reason is that a spell is a spell, no matter where it came from.  You can use your magic to modify the spell once it's cast (enchanted items can still not be modified before or during casting, however). 

Again, there is no RAW in this.  Either interpretation is just an extrapolation of RAI.

[JDK002]

I wouldn't allow it for enchanted items personally.  One reason being if the RAW doesn't explicitly say you can do it, my answer is "no you can't do it" 9 times out of 10.  Themeatically, enchanted items are pre-packaged spells that are charged up ahead of time.  Also I wouldn't allow it because enchanted items don't just mimic evocation.  They can also replicate Thaumaturgy.  You could get around almost all the Thaum limititations if it were allowed.

Extending Rotes however falls into the 1/10 for me.  Rotes still count as evocation and still follow all the same rote rules and applications once cast as far as I'm concerned.

[Lavecki121]

Right and once the spell is released, am I allowed to put more energy to sustain it. The spell is still the same no matter if it is in an enchanted item, a rote spell or I cast it myself. So shouldn't I be able to sustain it normally.

Additionally if I make a rote spell that breaks a law, and I already have the power, does the bonus I get from that apply when casting the rote. IE If I have a 5 discipline and I make a rote that is 6 power and it breaks law 6 every time it is used. I have lawbreaker 6 [-1] giving me +1 to spells that break this law. Do I have to take automatic fallout/backlash or does that +1 apply to the rote.

[Dr.FunLove]

Enchanted Items are by use...once a use has been expended, that's it. In thematic, magical terms, there is nothing to extend because their is no open connection to the magic - it's tied to the item, it's static.

[Lavecki121]

I dont believe that so much, the thematics at least. It is stored magical energy. My own magical energy too. However, instead of storing it inside myself I have externalized it. Once that magical energy is released it is out in the open and I should be able to push more of my own energy into it to extend its durration.

[Dr.FunLove]

Right, but it isn't just about energy, it's about the construct of that energy. The construct for the energy in say, Harry's duster, is static - it has what energy it has and does what it does. He can pour more energy into his shield evocation because he is actively maintaining the construct with his mind.

[Deadmanwalking]

What Dr.FunLove said. There are no indications that Enchanted items count as Evocations for any purpose, given they can duplicate Thaumaturgy as well, and it's thematically weird and inappropriate.

[Lavecki121]

Harry's duster is also armor. Im talking more of a zonewide block on movement vs all characters who are not myself. I dont see why I would be able to create an enchanted item that could last for 2 turns then die, but not be able to create one that lasts for 1 turn and try and extend that durration. It would be rediculous to try and cast that effect every round I wanted to have it extend.

[Dr.FunLove]

Because it isn't a spell as per the games mechanics but a spell-like effect. In the case of the item in question, it sounds like you need to balance between its strength and the number of uses you have available so you have most amount of flexibility with the item you can get for the cost you're willing to pay for it.

[Mr. Death]

Put it this way. If you're trying to push something by hand, and you want to keep pushing it, you can just put more effort into it.

If you're trying to push something with a motorized vehicle, and that vehicle runs out of power, you can't just keep the vehicle moving with your own effort.

The power in an enchanted item comes from the item, not the caster, and an enchanted item isn't made to focus the caster's power through it--and that's what such a duration enhancement would be, trying to cast through the item.

[Lavecki121]

Ah ok. But the consensus is that I can keep a rote spell going just not an enchanted item correct?