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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Basil on October 10, 2020, 09:33:41 PM

Title: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Basil on October 10, 2020, 09:33:41 PM
Since we now know that:

(1) "Empty Night" is a catch phrase of the White Court and of the
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(2)  Lord Raith had an Outsider as a sponsor.  That sponsor was the source of his entropy curse and the reason that magic slid off him;
(3)  Lord Raith isn't dead, but simply mad and starving;
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(5)  The Outsiders have probably attempted at least one rescue -- that of Popsicle Leansidhe;
(6)  Lord Raith now has reason for vengeance Harry, Thomas AND Lara; and,
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Do we think Lord Raith is going to break free at some point, recharge up and will he kick off the Apocalypse? 
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: edf on October 10, 2020, 10:26:10 PM
Actually I was thinking of something else.  PT showed that WC vamps can recharge other WC vamps by giving energy. It may not be the preferred way to feed, but it seems like a good way to bring Papa Raith back into the mix at nearly full power. 

All it will take is someone with access to Papa Raith to cut a deal "feed me and I'll reward you."   After that his first agenda item will either be will be killing off Harry and Thomas <or> taking back control from Lara.  Either will put him on a short path to Harry.

There's also a fair chance we'll see him in Mirror Mirror if Harry is looking for an alt-Thomas or alt-Lara.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 10, 2020, 10:29:07 PM
Wondering if exposure to Lord Raith isn't where Justine got possessed by Nemesis 🤔 Raith is no longer a viable host to act from, perhaps it found opportunity with Justine and decided to take her?
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on October 10, 2020, 11:55:57 PM
Wondering if exposure to Lord Raith isn't where Justine got possessed by Nemesis 🤔 Raith is no longer a viable host to act from, perhaps it found opportunity with Justine and decided to take her?

Or whatever it is that possesses Lord Raith.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 12:06:51 AM
All it will take is someone with access to Papa Raith to cut a deal "feed me and I'll reward you."   After that his first agenda item will either be will be killing off Harry and Thomas <or> taking back control from Lara.  Either will put him on a short path to Harry.

But Lord Raith can't feed, right? By Maggie's curse?
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: edf on October 11, 2020, 12:29:58 AM
But Lord Raith can't feed, right? By Maggie's curse?

Correct, Raith can't feed himself.   What Lara did with Thomas on the boat ride was Lara giving Thomas some of her energy.  Another WC vamp might be able to do that for Lord Raith.  (Which at the time seemed like the most important reason to introduce it.  It provides a way for Lord Raith to become active again and seems pretty important for Harry to consider.)
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 01:41:56 AM
I am not sure it works that way, but I will be thinking another thing. What if, as an engagement gift, if you want, Lara takes Raith to the island so Thomas can feed from him, killing him. It would be a fitting end for the man that killed Thomas (and Harry's) mom. And then, with Thomas "a little better", Lara (well fed herself) could pass some of her energy to Thomas.
That way, Thomas will recover and I am sure they can manage to have Thomas back to Lara's place without anyone noticing. He could even feed for some humans there without killing them until he recovers his health.

At this point, I believe everyone knows that Lara is the actual Queen, so no one would care if Raith is off.

Another thing about Thomas, for now, he is bound to Harry. Which is hilarious considering that several characters considered that Harry was Thomas' thrall.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 11, 2020, 02:44:17 AM
I forget, was it ever confirmed that the curse was anchored to both brothers, or is it just assumed?
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Mira on October 11, 2020, 05:02:52 AM
I forget, was it ever confirmed that the curse was anchored to both brothers, or is it just assumed?

I think only Thomas, but it could be another assumed rather than confirmed fact.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Basil on October 11, 2020, 05:13:08 AM
I believe it was Thomas and Harry, and probably Maggie.  In fact, now that I think on it, if the Red Court had been successful, that may have freed Lord Wraith as well.  Perhaps that was a rescue attempt of a sort as well.

Changes gave us the impression that Duchess Arianne was going for McCoy, but the Red King was losing control perhaps another Nemesis victim. 
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Pirate101 on October 11, 2020, 05:53:43 AM
I believe it was Thomas and Harry, and probably Maggie.  In fact, now that I think on it, if the Red Court had been successful, that may have freed Lord Wraith as well.  Perhaps that was a rescue attempt of a sort as well.
I thought it was pretty much established that the Bloodline-Curse would have had the effect to free Lord Raith. Not necessarily intended though.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 11, 2020, 06:14:15 AM
I forget, was it ever confirmed that the curse was anchored to both brothers, or is it just assumed?
Lord Raith assumed this... But it also doesn't take into account the possibility of other siblings. Imagine how mad Raith would have been if he's managed to off them both and it was still an active curse lol
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 06:53:12 AM
I forget, was it ever confirmed that the curse was anchored to both brothers, or is it just assumed?

IIRC, Harry said it's in her bloodline, so Raith wanted to kill both of them, but there is Maggien...and now an unborn child.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 08:46:36 AM
IIRC, Harry said it's in her bloodline, so Raith wanted to kill both of them, but there is Maggien...and now an unborn child.
And maybe bonea counts too.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: forumghost on October 11, 2020, 08:48:33 AM
And maybe bonea counts too.

I doubt a spirit would count, but Maggie would- which is funny, because I'm pretty sure she was already born in Blood Rites, so Lord Raith was gonna lose even if he won.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 08:51:27 AM
I think it is a bloodline curse which wouldn't work with Bonea because, well, she has no blood. But Maggie and Justine baby would.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 08:52:48 AM
I doubt a spirit would count, but Maggie would- which is funny, because I'm pretty sure she was already born in Blood Rites, so Lord Raith was gonna lose even if he won.
I don't think it is bound to blood and dna literally, more like to spiritual power that is inherited. But being human alive might count.

So would Ghost Story have broken the curse if Harry was the only child?
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 09:33:47 AM
I don't think so because a) Maggie b) Harry was not really dead. That has been discussed as nauseam, but he would have broken the "die alone" curse if he was truly dead.

And about literal, yes, I think it meant literal blood. A foster child would not have had the same effect, for instance, no matter how much loved they were. But as there is no clear indication in the text, your opinion and mine are equally worthy.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 10:13:47 AM
I don't think so because a) Maggie b) Harry was not really dead. That has been discussed as nauseam, but he would have broken the "die alone" curse if he was truly dead.

And about literal, yes, I think it meant literal blood. A foster child would not have had the same effect, for instance, no matter how much loved they were. But as there is no clear indication in the text, your opinion and mine are equally worthy.
I do not think it is literally blood because what really counts is power/spirit, blood is just the vehicle. When a child is born it is not just the dna that is combined, it is the soul and spirit too. I think that is the traceable stuff for the spell. Bloodline is an old metaphor so I do not think we have to take it literally.

A forgot to mention Maggie. But what would have happened if Harry had returned in a different body? Like corpstaker planned and Kemmler did a few times? 



Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: BrainFireBob on October 11, 2020, 05:16:39 PM
I do not think it is literally blood because what really counts is power/spirit, blood is just the vehicle. When a child is born it is not just the dna that is combined, it is the soul and spirit too. I think that is the traceable stuff for the spell. Bloodline is an old metaphor so I do not think we have to take it literally.

A forgot to mention Maggie. But what would have happened if Harry had returned in a different body? Like corpstaker planned and Kemmler did a few times?

Few things.

I do think blood is the medium, much like hair or fingernail clippings.

My WAG: Harry isn't even aware he's juicing the curse, and Thomas is the link. Harry has always had this power drain he was unaware of and doesn't notice, passed via Thomas via their blood link, and from Thomas to Lord Raith.

My other WAG: She didn't stop his feeding. She amped up his anti-magic aura to absorb any spiritual energy he tries to eat.

EDIT: OOOh, or it feeds Thomas instead
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 07:32:30 PM
A forgot to mention Maggie. But what would have happened if Harry had returned in a different body? Like corpstaker planned and Kemmler did a few times?
Yes, I suppose if his original body died the spell would have broken, regardless of Harry's mind and soul being still alive.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Griffyn612 on October 11, 2020, 08:04:38 PM
So the consensus seems to be that it's a bloodline curse for descendents of Margaret's line. Which would be Thomas, Harry, Maggie, possibly Bonea if it's soul/spirit based, and Thomas's kid in the future.

We're not at all concerned that it's just tied to Maggie's kids, and that with Harry's death and Thomas now being sealed away and cut off from magic, the curse isn't compromised.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 08:12:39 PM
Of course, we can be wrong  :P
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 08:19:32 PM
So the consensus seems to be that it's a bloodline curse for descendents of Margaret's line. Which would be Thomas, Harry, Maggie, possibly Bonea if it's soul/spirit based, and Thomas's kid in the future.

We're not at all concerned that it's just tied to Maggie's kids, and that with Harry's death and Thomas now being sealed away and cut off from magic, the curse isn't compromised.
I do not think it wouldn’t even matter that much by now. Lara will keep him weakened and impotent for the rest of his life whatever happens.

Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 08:32:41 PM
I really want to have Lord Raith fed to Thomas.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 08:41:16 PM
I really want to have Lord Raith fed to Thomas.
Him and his sisters. A real family bonding experience.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Basil on October 11, 2020, 09:11:48 PM
Don't think that would work.  Certainly, Lara -- who is bisexual in her tastes -- could devour Lord Wraith.  Mostly, she has done so. 

But, Thomas is not bisexual as far as we know and so given the powers of the Wraiths, I'm not sure that he could feed on a man.  For that matter, neither could Lord Wraith -- this is why his sons met "tragic accidents," because he could not feed on them they were very dangerous to him.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 11, 2020, 09:13:23 PM
Raith not Wraith.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2020, 09:19:29 PM
I think Thomas eats whatever, only it's not his first inclination to do it with man. But in its current state, he would eat anything.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Basil on October 12, 2020, 12:09:21 AM
Raith not Wraith.

Dammit, you are right.  (I'm mostly an audio book listener, but still should get that right). 
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: The_Sibelis on October 12, 2020, 12:11:52 AM
@Brainfirebob
I like the idea she tinkered with his antimagic Aura.. but if he loses said aura her curse would just be spinning it's wheels with nothing to work with anymore. Might be an interesting way for him to throw off its effects.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Arjan on October 12, 2020, 12:53:01 AM
Dammit, you are right.  (I'm mostly an audio book listener, but still should get that right).
It is also white night in stead of white knight but strangely enough nobody writes summer night in stead of summer knight.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: StrayDog on October 12, 2020, 03:04:23 AM
I forget, was it ever confirmed that the curse was anchored to both brothers, or is it just assumed?

I think it was stated that the curse was anchored to both brothers.
Title: Re: Lord Wraith [With Spoilers]
Post by: Bad Alias on October 13, 2020, 05:00:35 PM
Harry figures out what Maggie's death curse was based on her gift of intuition in the soul gaze, so I'd say that it isn't confirmed who the curse draws power from. I think it's beyond any reasonable doubt that it feeds off of Thomas and Harry. I also believe it's more likely than not that it draws power from little Maggie. It could have been severed from Harry when he "died" any one of the 2-3 times he died. And it could be blocked by Demonreach from using Thomas. So it's possible that the death curse is broken/inactive as of the end of PT. I don't think it's likely, but we've never been given precise details about how anything works, so Jim almost always has enough wiggle room to do what he wants.