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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on February 04, 2018, 07:03:49 PM
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"Your mother was a most direct and willful woman. Her loss was a great sadness to all of us." - Chauncy
Chauncy also stated that the she slipped from the dark prince's grasp.... So it begs the question, did she like Harry take up a Coin at one point? It in my opinion also reinforces the theory that Malcolm at one point may have taken up a Sword.
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When this was brought up before and nic chose lasciel for Harry, I and others wondered if Maggie Sr had worn lasciel.
It has been argued that Malcolm was a knight of the cross.
One crazy wag of mine has Harry descending from nic via Malcolm. I even proposed that Malcolm is a redeemed, 2nd chanced nic. So in my theory, Malcolm would be both denarian and knight of the cross.
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The same reasons I doubt she had a Mantle make me doubt she had a Coin. I don't think she would have taken power at the cost of giving someone else that kind of control over her.
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I think if Malcolm was a KotC, he was one of the one-shots. I proposed this theory before: Maggie is hiding out, working for Malcolm. She is found and attacked by creatures, either outsiders or denarians or both. The Knights show up, including the wielder of Amoracchius before Micheal. During the battle, Amoracchius is separated from it's wielder. Malcolm, being in love with Maggie, is able to take up the Sword.
Maggie, knowing the nature of the Sword, realizes that Malcolm truly loves her and falls in love with him. This could have burned out any influence over her, even from a shade of Lasciel. After, the Knights take Amoracchius and Malcolm and Maggie go back into hiding.
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As an addendum to the WAG's, I wouldn't mind finding out that Harry descends from Nic and Tessa :)
Talking about one screwball family tree. It would also make Nic and the Fallen extra involved in matters behind the scenes in Changes. We did see all three Swords come out for that show. There may have been Fallen coins that came out too but not against the Swords, against the RCV.
Adding to this speculation, I wonder if there were any Fallen involved in the Grey Council.
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The same reasons I doubt she had a Mantle make me doubt she had a Coin. I don't think she would have taken power at the cost of giving someone else that kind of control over her.
Like having sex with a White Court vampire?
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Like having sex with a White Court vampire?
That is fair. I'd think that she might think she's got enough strength of will to resist a Wampire, but that same thing applies for having a Coin. Especially with Nic to serve as an example.
I still doubt it, but the control thing seems less of an argument than I originally figured.
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That is fair. I'd think that she might think she's got enough strength of will to resist a Wampire, but that same thing applies for having a Coin. Especially with Nic to serve as an example.
I still doubt it, but the control thing seems less of an argument than I originally figured.
I actually agree with you on her not giving up her freedom easily. It does seem though that for wizards who get in the mix of things they find themselves in situations where their choices are limited. So I could see her (like Harry) getting into a situation where she gives up freedom in exchange for some kind of power because she feels she has no other options (even if there are)
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I mean it could be just me but:
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth - because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
This sounds to me like she's speaking about someone she knew personally.
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It does seem possible Margaret LeFae was a holder of Lasciel's coin. There are two things that are against that idea though.
Neither Nicodemus nor Lasciel ever told Harry his mother was a previous holder. Why not? It would have been a strong argument to persuade Harry to try it as well.
The other thing is, with Lasciel's help, Margaret should not have been vulnerable to Lord Raith. Lasciel should have been able to block the sex whammy thing for her.
APG
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It could be that to more fully use Lasciel to protect her, she'd further lose herself.
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It does seem possible Margaret LeFae was a holder of Lasciel's coin. There are two things that are against that idea though.
Neither Nicodemus nor Lasciel ever told Harry his mother was a previous holder. Why not? It would have been a strong argument to persuade Harry to try it as well.
The other thing is, with Lasciel's help, Margaret should not have been vulnerable to Lord Raith. Lasciel should have been able to block the sex whammy thing for her.
APG
She could have taken up the coin after leaving PR, in order to block the whammy. Nic wouldn't necessarily know. Lasciel could have been conspiring with Maggie against Nic, and thus keeps this knowledge from him. Not telling Harry for fear that he would spill it to Nic and blow the plot.
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The timing for Maggie to get the coin after leaving Raith isn't impossible, but is very unlikely. She met Malcolm shortly after leaving Raith, and had Harry shortly after that. And I can't imagine her having a coin while carrying Harry.
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I'd say it's probably a given that Nicodemus offered her a coin, and Maggie was apparently short-sighted enough to have taken one.
Could it have been Lasciel? I'm not sure. I feel like Nicodemus would have mentioned so to taunt Dresden with the fact. But then in her final scene Lasciel does say she knows some of what Harry's mother was up to.
The other thing is, with Lasciel's help, Margaret should not have been vulnerable to Lord Raith. Lasciel should have been able to block the sex whammy thing for her.
What makes you so certain this is the case?
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The other thing is, with Lasciel's help, Margaret should not have been vulnerable to Lord Raith. Lasciel should have been able to block the sex whammy thing for her.
APG
Well at this point Maggie had met Harry's father, and had changed. If the theory that he was a KoTC, or even if he wasn't. If she really loved him, and it sounds like she did, she'd have probably given up the Coin.
If it was Lasciel it makes even more sense why she chose Harry. I believe (and could be wrong) that Lasciel requested Harry, and Nicodemus found it curious. How better to get back at the woman who refused her than to ensnare her son.
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The timing for Maggie to get the coin after leaving Raith isn't impossible, but is very unlikely. She met Malcolm shortly after leaving Raith, and had Harry shortly after that. And I can't imagine her having a coin while carrying Harry.
Has it been stated how long Maggie and Malcolm were together before Harry was conceived?
A coin could have helped her get away from Raith. Then falling in love with Malcolm let her overcome the coin.
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Has it been stated how long Maggie and Malcolm were together before Harry was conceived?
A coin could have helped her get away from Raith. Then falling in love with Malcolm let her overcome the coin.
They were together in total for about a year and change. Maybe two.
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That would make the family tree start with very twisted roots. Although it would shine an interesting light on changes at that point, with at least one of the coin holders threatened with the blood curse along with Harry. As well as giving at least 1 coin holder as a possible member of the grey council. Just to hedge bets against dying. That would be very weird for Harry to see a grey cloak fall open at the wrong angle and a noose show just a little...
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Is it time for 2018's first, "Malcolm Dresden was a Knight of the Cross" debate?
(http://m.quickmeme.com/img/a9/a9b8f5d858a56ab5b90698a687ee9bbcdf0c87ff2b5c82299de3f34b955d6f66.jpg)
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Nicodemus only had Lasciel's Coin available at the time he chucked it at Harry, according to Cassius Snakington. Yet Nicodemus also claims that he chose "definitely the right coin." Is this braggadocios nonsense, trying to play off his Ubermensch, Darwinian brand of evil villainy? Because it's really not much of a choice if it's the only one he has, but it does seem well within his characterization to play it off as a Machiavellian scheme to win Harry's loyalty. Alternately, did he specifically hold onto that Coin to distribute it to Harry (or someone specifically like him)?
Relevant to the thread: why is that the only Coin he had? Was he holding it for Harry? Did he get it back after Margaret (I have to separate the characters into Margaret, Maggie, and Molly to keep them straight in my head) set aside the Coin? Or did he have a few Coins in the bank and just lied to Cassius?
Intriguingly, did she have to set aside her magic to do so? Is that why she was vulnerable to Raith? I know she leveled her death curse his way, but we don't really know enough about the mechanics of setting aside a Coin after it's been taken up by a wizard-level talent, or the mechanics of death curses to rule it out (unless I'm forgetting something). We do know that setting aside magic doesn't remove it from the bloodline, because of Molly, so Harry's inheritance would remain intact. I can't think of anything that would rule it out.
Is it time for 2018's first, "Malcolm Dresden was a Knight of the Cross" debate?
(http://m.quickmeme.com/img/a9/a9b8f5d858a56ab5b90698a687ee9bbcdf0c87ff2b5c82299de3f34b955d6f66.jpg)
For what it's worth, I don't think that's the case. I think Malcolm's contribution to events in the Dresden Files was being a good dude.
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My read on it was Harry would have had to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow, because his magic was effectively giving it life.
Taking up the coin, accepting the fallen, and then giving up the coin wouldn't require that, I don't think, because the shadow would've been absorbed back into the Fallen and giving up the coin then is the major choice and rejection.
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My read on it was Harry would have had to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow, because his magic was effectively giving it life.
Taking up the coin, accepting the fallen, and then giving up the coin wouldn't require that, I don't think, because the shadow would've been absorbed back into the Fallen and giving up the coin then is the major choice and rejection.
That's been my read on things, too, but I remember it being a point of contention.
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My read on it was Harry would have had to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow, because his magic was effectively giving it life.
Taking up the coin, accepting the fallen, and then giving up the coin wouldn't require that, I don't think, because the shadow would've been absorbed back into the Fallen and giving up the coin then is the major choice and rejection.
Do we have any proof that Maggie still had access to her magic when she had Harry/died? Just curious, as I can't recall anything suggesting she did or didn't.
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Do we have any proof that Maggie still had access to her magic when she had Harry/died? Just curious, as I can't recall anything suggesting she did or didn't.
Pretty sure you can't cast a Death Curse if you don't have magic.
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Pretty sure you can't cast a Death Curse if you don't have magic.
Good point. Although if I were inclined to argue, I'd say that there was a WoJ on the potency of death curses being dependent on power level, and Maggie's curse (being anchored on two blood relatives for the ongoing support) might be more finesse than raw strength.
But I'm not really inclined to argue the point. Lasciel's comment seemed to be more about Maggie getting a new source of power rather than losing what she had. I'd believe that she fell in True Love with someone else before I'd believe that giving up her power would make it easier to break free.
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Eb gave the impression that she fell in love with Malcolm in the end. It therefore seemed like their association wasn't love on her end but a star born project that then blosssomed into something else.
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Eb gave the impression that she fell in love with Malcolm in the end. It therefore seemed like their association wasn't love on her end but a star born project that then blosssomed into something else.
The only info we have about it says that Maggie getting with Malcolm was her getting out of the plans and such she had with Lord Raith et al. Not that it was just another step in the plan.
"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some
reason she turned away from her previous associates—including
Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from
her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years.
And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
I stared at him in pained fascination. "What happened?"
"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without
influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I
have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the
night you were born, one of her former allies found her and
exacted his vengeance for her desertion."
He doesn't say she ended up loving him "in the end," just that she fell in love. I don't see anything in that description that would indicate that she met Malcolm for some ulterior motive -- Ebenezer clearly says she met him after running away from her former associates and, presumably, from the plans she had with them.
There seems to be this everpresent impression of Maggie Sr. of this ultimate planner that did everything completely purposefully and with foresight, but the evidence suggests she very much was not.
She was someone who slept with Lord Raith. On purpose. Multiple times.
If that alone doesn't spell, "Way too arrogant and really bad at predicting the outcomes of your actions," then nothing does.
As a rule, your master planners generally don't end up having to run away from damn near everyone on the planet that's aware of them for two years before being killed. That kind of thing happens to people who only think they're master planners.
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Hey Griff, haven't seen you post in the section in a while.
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Do we have any proof that Maggie still had access to her magic when she had Harry/died? Just curious, as I can't recall anything suggesting she did or didn't.
She made stone for Harry with all her info on the Ways. Not necessarily when she died, but it's a safe bet she knew he was on the way, and it probably wasn't for Thomas (being a Wampire, his mortal magic probably wasn't on the same level).
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She made stone for Harry with all her info on the Ways. Not necessarily when she died, but it's a safe bet she knew he was on the way, and it probably wasn't for Thomas (being a Wampire, his mortal magic probably wasn't on the same level).
Point of order: the stone was given to Lea to give to Harry, not necessarily made for him. In the text, it functions like a doctor or researcher's notes; she even has aside dialogue about a rough landing (something like "don't wear a dress next time, some farmer will get a show," if I remember correctly). It is my reading that she made it for herself, then left it to Harry in her pseudo-will. I could be wrong here; I'm going just from what we know about it in Changes.
Not saying one way or the other that she had set aside her magic; I was simply raising the question in my original post.
As for the death curse, I don't know enough about how they function to say whether or not it would still work, and I think we don't have enough information about what Michael truly meant by setting aside magic. It could be setting aside the function by which their wizard senses work—they can't pull energy from the environment, etc., but they can still draw on their life energy to back a spell; after all, non-wizards can do magic, too—what limits them is their ability to tap into those external resources. Harry compares it to a deaf-blind-mute learning to paint.
There seems to be this everpresent impression of Maggie Sr. of this ultimate planner that did everything completely purposefully and with foresight, but the evidence suggests she very much was not.
I agree. I don't think she had a Grand Design; I think she was curious and defiant, and got into some stuff way, way too deeply before she realized how terrible it was all going to be. I think that once she was snapped out of her deluded lifestyle, she reacted by doing what she did best: running. That was after she had decided to correct what she messed up, landed on the idea of a Starborn, and went about the business of making one herself. That gave her the push she needed to break away, met Malcolm, fell for him, and aligned the circumstances of Harry's birth (not sure if it's significant, but Lash doesn't say the circumstances of his conception, but specifically his birth).
Further evidence of Margaret's lack of foresight is her defiance toward the Laws; Luccio provides a perfectly reasonable and credible argument for keeping them as high-level and simple as possible, but evidently that kind of argument didn't work too well on Margaret.
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She made stone for Harry with all her info on the Ways. Not necessarily when she died, but it's a safe bet she knew he was on the way, and it probably wasn't for Thomas (being a Wampire, his mortal magic probably wasn't on the same level).
I got the impression the stone was for herself, and she intended it for Harry once he was ready to face the things he'd encounter in the NN. I didn't get the impression that she was making it just for him.
More of "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough," rather than "your father made this lightsaber just for you, but never got a chance to give it to you himself, and never actually used it himself".
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I got the impression the stone was for herself, and she intended it for Harry once he was ready to face the things he'd encounter in the NN. I didn't get the impression that she was making it just for him.
More of "your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough," rather than "your father made this lightsaber just for you, but never got a chance to give it to you himself, and never actually used it himself".
I agree with this. I see her having identical amulets for herself and Thomas. She creates the Waystone for her own amulet. When she is soon to give birth, she realizes she will likely be found as labor is an extremely emotional time and she will not be able to hide her power. So she calls Lea and makes the deal to give her child the amulet with the Waystone "at the appropriate time".
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I would say that Maggie Sr. was more intelligent than Harry, who is a fairly smart person when he chooses to be. Her magic might not have had the raw power like McCoy or Harry but more finesse like Elaine.
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Huh. I've been wondering why Harry has so much juice. He makes it a point to say that in terms of fuel tanks, he's got a huge one. For one reason or another, I never connected that to his birthday of Halloween, where power can be stolen—or, maybe, transferred. Is it possible that Margaret arranged a transfer of power from something to Harry as he was born—maybe even some of her own power? I'm thinking about this like passing on furies in the Codex Alera series, which is likely wrongheaded, but I think there might be something there.
Alternately, could a birth power a ritual the way a sacrifice could?
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Huh. I've been wondering why Harry has so much juice. He makes it a point to say that in terms of fuel tanks, he's got a huge one. For one reason or another, I never connected that to his birthday of Halloween, where power can be stolen—or, maybe, transferred. Is it possible that Margaret arranged a transfer of power from something to Harry as he was born—maybe even some of her own power? I'm thinking about this like passing on furies in the Codex Alera series, which is likely wrongheaded, but I think there might be something there.
Alternately, could a birth power a ritual the way a sacrifice could?
Death seems to power a ritual using life energy. What would fuel a birth curse?
As for it being Halloween, I still think he was born prematurely because Raith targeted Maggie on Halloween because spells would be stronger.
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Well, if you take Thomas's spiel about sex having so much energy because it creates life at face value, I don't see why that life coming into the world wouldn't have a similar effect.
Even if you're just talking about "ordinary" magic fuels, like emotion, a birth would have plenty of emotions to use.
Given one of my RPG scenarios centered on a birth helping to fuel a ritual (TL;DR, it was a chronomancy spell to send someone back to the moment the child was conceived), I can't really argue against the idea, and I like it as a flipside to the human-sacrifice type of fuel.
And I don't see why Maggie couldn't have given some of her power to Harry; my only question is whether she'd have been able to do that at the same time she was leveling her Death Curse on Lord Raith. Both of them sound like they'd be complicated spells to pull off individually in the best conditions, let alone doing both while you're giving birth and dying.
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Not to mention that she was also setting up whatever spell she used to put a simulacrum of herself in Harry's head for when he met Thomas.
That must've been a full night for her...
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Well, if you take Thomas's spiel about sex having so much energy because it creates life at face value, I don't see why that life coming into the world wouldn't have a similar effect.
Even if you're just talking about "ordinary" magic fuels, like emotion, a birth would have plenty of emotions to use.
Given one of my RPG scenarios centered on a birth helping to fuel a ritual (TL;DR, it was a chronomancy spell to send someone back to the moment the child was conceived), I can't really argue against the idea, and I like it as a flipside to the human-sacrifice type of fuel.
And I don't see why Maggie couldn't have given some of her power to Harry; my only question is whether she'd have been able to do that at the same time she was leveling her Death Curse on Lord Raith. Both of them sound like they'd be complicated spells to pull off individually in the best conditions, let alone doing both while you're giving birth and dying.
But you'd be using the energy of birth to cast a spell. Unless we're going very literal with the idea that "there's more magic in a baby's first giggle than any firestorm a wizard can conjure up", there has to be a source for the power, right? So would it be the newborn's power? And what kind of impact would that have on them?
Not to mention that she was also setting up whatever spell she used to put a simulacrum of herself in Harry's head for when he met Thomas.
That must've been a full night for her...
Well, if we're arguing that you *can* cast with the power of birth, then she could have conceivably (bah-dump-ching) used the birth to cast a link between the brothers and the pendants, and then used her death curse to neuter Raith, using the birth casting as the anchor. Assuming she died a short time after Harry's birth.
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I always thought the message for Harry (and Thomas) was part of her Death Curse, linking the two of them to her magic to shut down Lord Raith. And while she was there, might as well leave a bit of herself behind to talk to her kids.
Another thing is that I'd look at Birth Magic like Death Magic. Death Magic uses energy from the victim (either the caster or another) for an extra boost. But where does the energy come from for Birth Magic? Either the mother or the child, which would make it much like Death Magic.
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I always thought the message for Harry (and Thomas) was part of her Death Curse, linking the two of them to her magic to shut down Lord Raith. And while she was there, might as well leave a bit of herself behind to talk to her kids.
That was my assumption as well, but it does seem like a lot for her to have done while in labor. I'm assuming she'd prepared the curse while on the run, knowing Raith might eventually try to kill her. And knowing Harry was on the way, she could have adjusted her prepared spell to include him.
Another thing is that I'd look at Birth Magic like Death Magic. Death Magic uses energy from the victim (either the caster or another) for an extra boost. But where does the energy come from for Birth Magic? Either the mother or the child, which would make it much like Death Magic.
That was what I was getting at. But if there's literally more magic in a baby's giggle (I still think it was Harry being poetic) then it's possible there's enough energy in the event itself that nothing would have to be taken from anyone.
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I kind of look it almost like fusion where the act itself generates energy. Like, the energy isn't from the mother or the baby, but from the act of birthing itself, because the act is such a major, powerful change.
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I'm assuming she'd prepared the curse while on the run, knowing Raith might eventually try to kill her.
Maybe but you know the guy who used his killing curse on Harry just had to say "Die alone" and as Jim said, Harry died alone when asked about it.
It could be that there doesn't need to be much preparation for even a curse that appears complex. Much of magic is about strong belief. If a wizard is casting a spell that is going to kill them, that requires a lot of determination, and will... So Maggie may have only needed to think of what she wanted to do to Raith, and unleash it, requiring only a few moments to do it.
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Maybe but you know the guy who used his killing curse on Harry just had to say "Die alone" and as Jim said, Harry died alone when asked about it.
It could be that there doesn't need to be much preparation for even a curse that appears complex. Much of magic is about strong belief. If a wizard is casting a spell that is going to kill them, that requires a lot of determination, and will... So Maggie may have only needed to think of what she wanted to do to Raith, and unleash it, requiring only a few moments to do it.
Given Raith's protection from magic, and the fact that her death curse is apparently anchored to her children, I imagine it was more complicated than Cassius' curse, which wasn't very potent and only marginally effective, given that Harry had both Mab (the presumed whisperer) and Bonnie with him when he died.
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One crazy wag of mine has Harry descending from nic via Malcolm. I even proposed that Malcolm is a redeemed, 2nd chanced nic. So in my theory, Malcolm would be both denarian and knight of the cross.
I'd figure Malcolm must have been a good guy for at least a year before Harry was born, probably more. He didn't just knock her up in a one-night stand; knowing him changed her character significantly. And he lived until Harry was six or seven.
Even if Nicodemus put down the coin and somehow traveled back in time, he simply wouldn't survive that long without Anduriel's protection from aging. Cassius went from middle age to almost dead within about a year of losing his coin, and he hadn't been depending on it as long as Nic.
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I'd figure Malcolm must have been a good guy for at least a year before Harry was born, probably more. He didn't just knock her up in a one-night stand; knowing him changed her character significantly. And he lived until Harry was six or seven.
I'm uncertain as to how far back Nic/Malcolm would have to be inserted in time to be consistent with the story. Malcolm was a magician who practiced with many of the famous magician's of the day. I'd have to think more about Malcolm's backstory. It is strange we don't know more about it. Regardless of Nic/Malcolm family, I'd like for Nic and Harry to somehow be related with Nic being a ancestor of Harry's. As far as Malcolm goes, I could like him having been descended from a Corwin like family that exists/functions on a higher plane of existence. Harry having blood of this family would allow him to travel parallel dimensions/worlds independently.
Even if Nicodemus put down the coin and somehow traveled back in time, he simply wouldn't survive that long without Anduriel's protection from aging. Cassius went from middle age to almost dead within about a year of losing his coin, and he hadn't been depending on it as long as Nic.
You are a soul; you have a body.
I think it would be a case of Uriel and company providing a body for Nic's soul to use in his 2nd chance life. Therefore, he would have no problem with disintegrating due to age. And, if Uriel provided the 2nd chance with a soul and time travel, it could be that a deal was made with say the Mothers or the Faeries or something for the body. Nic/Malcolm only had so much time to live in the body of Malcolm before time was 'up'. He died with a smile on his face knowing he hadn't screwed 'this' life up.
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The way it's most consistent with the story is that Malcolm is Malcolm and Nicodemus is Nicodemus.
What makes Malcolm special is that he's just a mortal man who was good and fell in love with Maggie. Shoehorning other people into his backstory misses the whole point of him and Maggie's redemption.
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I'm fine with that. What I'm thinking about for Malcolm/Nic really needs lots of setups and explaining, etc. It is a bit complicated.
Having read the Amber Chronicles, I've started to like that Malcolm is descended from a family of walkers. Walkers that can travel to and from parallel worlds. This would make Malcolm's bloodline important and one more reason why Harry and his bloodline via Malcolm important to target.
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Then I would ask that you keep that to the wilder threads you've already made about Dresden and Amber.
This thread is actually one of the semi-plausible theories that I can kinda get behind, and I'd prefer to keep talking about that instead of derailing it into something that is, at best, extremely unlikely and contradictory to the nature of the characters involved.
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I guess one question, which has already come up in this thread once but wasn't specifically addressed, was which coin she would have had.
Lasciel's is the obvious answer, but maybe not the best.
Rosanna's coin is another interesting option, but was presumably in use by Rosanna when Margaret was active. I don't know if we know how long Rosanna has been Tessa's second, but I was left with the impression that it had been a while.
And then there's Thorned Namshiel. Again, we have no way of knowing how long the previous host was in possession, but Namshiel being a caster coin makes it an interesting pairing.
The rest aren't particularly special, from what we've seen. And there's the possibility that she had one that's still secure somewhere and out of circulation.
The thing that appeals to me about Namshiel is the idea that Namshiel's host ended up infected, with Namshiel either going along with it or being helpless to stop it.
If Namshiel went along with it, it makes you wonder about this rebellious streak that the other Denarians didn't seem to know about. Given Margaret's rebellious nature, it's an interesting pair, and makes me wonder about the possibility that she influenced Namshiel somehow.
If Namshiel didn't go along with it, but lost control due to infection of the host, it makes you wonder who the host was, and when they were infected. With Margaret potentially being involved with Outsider business with Raith and the Sidhe, could it be that she gave up the coin, and someone else involved (and infected) picked up the coin?
Not to mention the potential for familiarity with Winter, if Margaret was involved with Mab like some theorize. It'd make the attack on AT more interesting.
Of course, Lasciel has a lot of interesting possibilities, like Lash knowing Margaret's history, but there's also the issues, like neither her nor Nico using that fact to help recruit Harry. Seducing Harry with the promise of info about his mother would have been incredibly tempting. Offering to appear as her, or share the memories of her life with her, would have helped Lasciel seal the deal.
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I'm not sure how well Namshiel would fit -- given what we know about the Denarian naming scheme, he seems like one who's more in control than his host. Maggie seems more willful than that, so I don't see her getting along very well with Namshiel.
Rosanna's coin, it's harder to say. She does seem like someone who's been in the game with the coin for a while, so it would depend on just when Margaret was going around with Nicodemus; by default, it would have to be before she took up with Lord Raith, since that seems to be the very last thing before she gave up on that life. So that's 30+ years in the past.
We don't know enough about Rosanna to make a yay or nay of it, unfortunately.
Lasciel still makes the most sense to me, though yes, it is odd that Nicodemus wouldn't have used that information. Lasciel did hide quite a bit from Harry, and in her last conversation she seems to imply she knows a lot more about Maggie Sr. than she'd previously indicated. In fact, that she knows what Maggie was thinking when she left Lord Raith.
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I'm not sure how well Namshiel would fit -- given what we know about the Denarian naming scheme, he seems like one who's more in control than his host. Maggie seems more willful than that, so I don't see her getting along very well with Namshiel.
Rosanna's coin, it's harder to say. She does seem like someone who's been in the game with the coin for a while, so it would depend on just when Margaret was going around with Nicodemus; by default, it would have to be before she took up with Lord Raith, since that seems to be the very last thing before she gave up on that life. So that's 30+ years in the past.
We don't know enough about Rosanna to make a yay or nay of it, unfortunately.
Lasciel still makes the most sense to me, though yes, it is odd that Nicodemus wouldn't have used that information. Lasciel did hide quite a bit from Harry, and in her last conversation she seems to imply she knows a lot more about Maggie Sr. than she'd previously indicated. In fact, that she knows what Maggie was thinking when she left Lord Raith.
For Rosanna, we know that she had her coin at least 10 years before Sanya showed up as a KotC in DM. He was mid-twenties then, and he took up the coin at sixteen, and had it for five years.
Rosanna could have taken it up right after Margaret. With Harry being 28 in DM, plus 2 years with Malcolm, plus 5 years (minimum) with Raith (given that Thomas was about 5 when she left), that's at least 35 years Rosanna could have had it.
By comparison, the temptress would have spent years in Harry's head without ever tempting him with the thing he wanted more than anything: a connection to his mother.
Lash could have replayed memories of Margaret's. She could have shared stories about the two working together, sometimes even against Nico (because we know they historically don't work together) to make a better world. And she could have reassured him that he could set the coin aside just like she must have done, pointing out that (with Chauncey's previous statement reinforcing) Margaret didn't lose herself or her soul by bearing the coin for a time.
Combine that with the knowledge that Sanya was a redeemed bearer, and Harry would have been sorely tempted to take up a power that he knew he could give up when he wanted, and use it to do good things like his mother had, all while gaining insight into her and her life.
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All good points.
Lasciel is subtle -- very subtle. And given Harry's distrust of her already, I could see her easing into it as much as possible to avoid scaring him off.
Yes, memories of his mother are among the things Harry wants the most -- but recall what happens when Vaderung gives Harry exactly what he wants. Harry is instantly suspicious about getting what he wants.
If Lasciel offered that to Harry too soon, Harry would reject it as too good to be true -- exactly like he does with Chauncy or Thomas.
Especially with Lasciel, he'd figure it was a way -- a particularly cruel way -- to try and get him to get his guard down, and he'd probably redouble his efforts to lock her out.
Harry's mother is a sensitive subject with him, so unless Harry does trust Lash already, telling too much about Maggie Sr. runs a risk of just pissing Harry off.
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All good points.
Lasciel is subtle -- very subtle. And given Harry's distrust of her already, I could see her easing into it as much as possible to avoid scaring him off.
Yes, memories of his mother are among the things Harry wants the most -- but recall what happens when Vaderung gives Harry exactly what he wants. Harry is instantly suspicious about getting what he wants.
If Lasciel offered that to Harry too soon, Harry would reject it as too good to be true -- exactly like he does with Chauncy or Thomas.
Especially with Lasciel, he'd figure it was a way -- a particularly cruel way -- to try and get him to get his guard down, and he'd probably redouble his efforts to lock her out.
Harry's mother is a sensitive subject with him, so unless Harry does trust Lash already, telling too much about Maggie Sr. runs a risk of just pissing Harry off.
He's also got a weakness for helping women and bucking convention. If she had presented herself as no friend of Nico's (supported by what he was told by people he trusts) who had worked with his mother as equals to rebel against a flawed system and do the right thing, he'd have eaten it up. Especially if she'd offered the memories for free.
The important thing to remember about Thomas and Vadderung is that he met them with initial skepticism, but ultimately accepted both because they were honest with him. Lasciel, as the ultimate Temptress, should have had more in her repertoire than offering mind-sex and power. Some deft deceptive honesty would have gone a lot farther with Harry than lies.
Since she didn't use any of that, in the several years she had with him, it suggests she didn't have that option.
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Since she didn't use any of that, in the several years she had with him, it suggests she didn't have that option.
Harry never fully accepted the Coin. He buried it. This may have limited Lasciel's influence quite a lot.
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Harry never fully accepted the Coin. He buried it. This may have limited Lasciel's influence quite a lot.
WoJ is that Lasciel knew everything Lash did. There was at least a one way communication between them. Lash knew extinct languages. She could give Harry access to hellfire.
But even if Lash couldn't get anything from Lasciel after the coin was sealed away, she'd still know what she needed to be that point. She could perceive his mind and read his memory. She could process things at the speed of thought. She had a couple hours to understand him and download everything relevant before he finished in the subbasement.
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WoJ is that Lasciel knew everything Lash did. There was at least a one way communication between them. Lash knew extinct languages. She could give Harry access to hellfire.
But even if Lash couldn't get anything from Lasciel after the coin was sealed away, she'd still know what she needed to be that point. She could perceive his mind and read his memory. She could process things at the speed of thought. She had a couple hours to understand him and download everything relevant before he finished in the subbasement.
I know but Harry never really experienced the bonding that others who embrace a Coin feel. Didn't feel the true power. We know the power was limited or Lash would not have needed to summon the Coin to protect Harry from death, and instead needed to sacrifice herself. The power was limited. I see it like Thomas and his demon. Thomas is his own man, but feels the physical need to feed. Harry felt some of the power but not really his entire being, including physical body becoming one with the Coin like the other Coin holders.
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I know but Harry never really experienced the bonding that others who embrace a Coin feel. Didn't feel the true power. We know the power was limited or Lash would not have needed to summon the Coin to protect Harry from death, and instead needed to sacrifice herself. The power was limited. I see it like Thomas and his demon. Thomas is his own man, but feels the physical need to feed. Harry felt some of the power but not really his entire being, including physical body becoming one with the Coin like the other Coin holders.
But Lash wouldn't need power. She'd just need knowledge to help convince Harry to take up the coin. Memories of Margaret.
If Margaret had the coin, and gave it up on her own without giving up her power (as proposed here) and without giving up her sense of self and her soul (as suggested by Chauncey), then Harry would have no reason to not give it a try.
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Yeah, I don't really have a solid answer for why Lash wouldn't have said anything sooner, except that she was waiting for the right time.
But out of the three proposed candidates, she makes the most sense, if Maggie did indeed have a coin.
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Yeah, I don't really have a solid answer for why Lash wouldn't have said anything sooner, except that she was waiting for the right time.
But out of the three proposed candidates, she makes the most sense, if Maggie did indeed have a coin.
We're agreed on that. Namshiel is an intriguing possiblity under very specific circumstances that are, at best, unlikely. And Rosanna has likely been with Tessa for quite some time.
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We're agreed on that. Namshiel is an intriguing possiblity under very specific circumstances that are, at best, unlikely. And Rosanna has likely been with Tessa for quite some time.
There are like 30 Coins right? If by some chance she took up a Coin, perhaps we will be introduced to a new Fallen in a future book? Tessa is believed to have stolen possibly 11 Coins. Would be interesting to see some of their persona's since there could be a little civil war between the Fallen.
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Given Raith's protection from magic, and the fact that her death curse is apparently anchored to her children, I imagine it was more complicated than Cassius' curse, which wasn't very potent and only marginally effective, given that Harry had both Mab (the presumed whisperer) and Bonnie with him when he died.
Well, kind of what I was thinking was that using a birth to power some kind of spell was required for the Raith deal. We assume it was her death curse, but what if she used Harry's birth to anchor this reverse-bloodline-curse that she leveled against Papa Raith? I've even toyed with the idea that the thing was anchored at both ends; as long as the curse was in effect (i.e., Raith is still alive and hungry), Harry and Thomas (and by extension, Maggie and Ebenezer) were offered some kind of protection. It could have been what kept Harry hidden from Raith all those years; the old King would certainly have wanted Harry dead as soon as he realized what was done to him, rather than wait, you know, thirty-something years.
As for the Coin, I don't know about Lasciel. She knew something about her and what took place with the White Court, but we don't know that she knows anything more than the rest of the Nickelheads Nicodemus keeps with him—Nic mentions that he knew and respected Margaret in Death Masks over his creepy-calm torture breakfast. Namshiel is interesting, and I got the feeling that Thorny goes through hosts relatively quickly, considering that he's never seen outside his shapeshifted form. I don't think that Margaret would have accepted a Coin from something that was so dominating, however. Lasciel is a better fit for her personality.
Against that, however, I absolutely believe that Lasciel would have started talking smack about Harry's mom in Hades's Vault, though. She wouldn't have been able to help herself, and nothing would have cut Harry more than this exchange:
"No one's ever turned me down before, Harry. Not once. Not even your mother."
I'd imagine Harry would have gone into a miniature mental tailspin from that, and Lasciel would've wanted to twist the knife—so would Ascher.
Rosanna is a possibility; even the Poor Demon Girl act would have been compatible with what we know about Margaret's personality (as in, I could see Margaret pulling it off).
Still, Namshiel's possible infection makes him a strong candidate; I believe Margaret's overriding goal for a long time was stopping the Outsiders, and putting a Denarian in the line of fire of Nemesis is too tantalizing to ignore for me. I just don't think I could reconcile that with Margaret's personality.
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Lord Raith may not have known that Harry existed for a while. He probably didn't know about Maggie Sr.'s marriage -- if he had known that much about her, he probably would've been able to get to her sooner.
And he may not have known the exact mechanics of the curse against him. It's not like it would've popped up with an infobox detailing what's keeping it on him -- just, one day after he killed Maggie Sr., he couldn't feed. He might have guessed/presumed it was her death curse, but even if he did know it was anchored to her bloodline, he would've thought of Thomas first -- and given he didn't start trying to kill him when he was five, he apparently didn't know this for a while.
Long enough to have completely lost track of Harry and Malcolm Dresden, if he even knew about them in the first place. Hell, if he was aware of Malcolm Dresden, he's probably the type who would've tried to kill him immediately for the crime of taking a woman that Raith believed was his.
So to my mind, evidence points to Raith simply not knowing the nature of the curse against him or Harry's existence until much later in life.
So I don't think any protection was necessary. Ebenezer certainly didn't need it, and Harry was plenty protected by being Harry Dresden and not Harry McCoy.
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Lord Raith may not have known that Harry existed for a while. He probably didn't know about Maggie Sr.'s marriage -- if he had known that much about her, he probably would've been able to get to her sooner.
And he may not have known the exact mechanics of the curse against him. It's not like it would've popped up with an infobox detailing what's keeping it on him -- just, one day after he killed Maggie Sr., he couldn't feed. He might have guessed/presumed it was her death curse, but even if he did know it was anchored to her bloodline, he would've thought of Thomas first -- and given he didn't start trying to kill him when he was five, he apparently didn't know this for a while.
Long enough to have completely lost track of Harry and Malcolm Dresden, if he even knew about them in the first place. Hell, if he was aware of Malcolm Dresden, he's probably the type who would've tried to kill him immediately for the crime of taking a woman that Raith believed was his.
So to my mind, evidence points to Raith simply not knowing the nature of the curse against him or Harry's existence until much later in life.
So I don't think any protection was necessary. Ebenezer certainly didn't need it, and Harry was plenty protected by being Harry Dresden and not Harry McCoy.
True enough; my thinking was that Harry was in The System for years, and Raith was smart enough to figure things out. It may have taken a while, but it's not like Harry was hidden. There was definitely some kind of paper trail. Raith must've realized what Margaret did to him eventually.
Regardless, I went back and read the WOJ on death curses, and he does specify that what Margaret did to Raith was a death curse, so the point is moot.
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Lord Raith may not have known that Harry existed for a while. He probably didn't know about Maggie Sr.'s marriage -- if he had known that much about her, he probably would've been able to get to her sooner.
And he may not have known the exact mechanics of the curse against him. It's not like it would've popped up with an infobox detailing what's keeping it on him -- just, one day after he killed Maggie Sr., he couldn't feed. He might have guessed/presumed it was her death curse, but even if he did know it was anchored to her bloodline, he would've thought of Thomas first -- and given he didn't start trying to kill him when he was five, he apparently didn't know this for a while.
Long enough to have completely lost track of Harry and Malcolm Dresden, if he even knew about them in the first place. Hell, if he was aware of Malcolm Dresden, he's probably the type who would've tried to kill him immediately for the crime of taking a woman that Raith believed was his.
So to my mind, evidence points to Raith simply not knowing the nature of the curse against him or Harry's existence until much later in life.
So I don't think any protection was necessary. Ebenezer certainly didn't need it, and Harry was plenty protected by being Harry Dresden and not Harry McCoy.
Maggie getting hit with the curse while she was in labor with Harry seems pretty unlikely that Raith wasn't aware of her pregnancy... What are the odds the curse would hit right at that time?
Personally I'm wondering if he wasn't actually the one behind it, and it's just been assumed the entire time he was.
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Maggie getting hit with the curse while she was in labor with Harry seems pretty unlikely that Raith wasn't aware of her pregnancy... What are the odds the curse would hit right at that time?
Personally I'm wondering if he wasn't actually the one behind it, and it's just been assumed the entire time he was.
That is a sticky point, yeah. Though there are ways he could have found out that she was pregnant without knowing the details. And he may have assumed the child had died, too.
Off the top of my head...
He could've been looking for her the whole time, but she was shielding herself until labor forced her to let her guard down.
He could've had his supernatural contacts on the look out for when she emerged and was vulnerable, and got the tip off right as it was happening.
He might have only gotten in touch with HWWB recently, and the timing of the birth was a coincidence or influenced by HWWB.
He might have just let fly with the spell without having any idea where she was or what she was doing, and the stress of getting hit with the spell induced the labor.
Because I think we can agree that if Lord Raith had known about Harry at that point, he would have taken a shot at him unless something was stopping him; either, as you suggest, Maggie Sr. did something to that effect (the deal with Lea, though, is more likely to account for such a thing, I think); or Lord Raith simply didn't know Harry was out there as a target.
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That is a sticky point, yeah. Though there are ways he could have found out that she was pregnant without knowing the details. And he may have assumed the child had died, too.
Off the top of my head...
He could've been looking for her the whole time, but she was shielding herself until labor forced her to let her guard down.
He could've had his supernatural contacts on the look out for when she emerged and was vulnerable, and got the tip off right as it was happening.
He might have only gotten in touch with HWWB recently, and the timing of the birth was a coincidence or influenced by HWWB.
He might have just let fly with the spell without having any idea where she was or what she was doing, and the stress of getting hit with the spell induced the labor.
Because I think we can agree that if Lord Raith had known about Harry at that point, he would have taken a shot at him unless something was stopping him; either, as you suggest, Maggie Sr. did something to that effect (the deal with Lea, though, is more likely to account for such a thing, I think); or Lord Raith simply didn't know Harry was out there as a target.
My guess for why he didn't go after Harry was because he believed Harry was dead (people behind the scenes made sure of this), or Lea made it clear to him that Harry was under her protection and he isn't as immune to her if she decides to kill him.
Another possible thing could be that Raith was so freaked out by not being able to feed, he didn't give a crap about Harry being alive, or dead. He was too distracted by his own problem. He wouldn't have known the spell was anchored to her sons or Thomas would have been killed.
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/60/b9/c7/60b9c72feff7fa005dbd3d20447d50ea.jpg)
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2014/174/1/f/the_iron_maiden_witch_by_banished_shadow-d7nkusd.png)
Ideas for Maggie in her Coin battle form :-D
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Those are some interesting images.
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/60/b9/c7/60b9c72feff7fa005dbd3d20447d50ea.jpg)
(http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2014/174/1/f/the_iron_maiden_witch_by_banished_shadow-d7nkusd.png)
Ideas for Maggie in her Coin battle form :-D
I think Margaret would go for more of a human look. I don't see her going demonic.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/d/d2/Claudia-black-32644.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110502172908)
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I think Margaret would go for more of a human look. I don't see her going demonic.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonage/images/d/d2/Claudia-black-32644.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110502172908)
Good call. Do the people have a choice with appearance when they have the Coin? What was Maggie's magical specialty?
Fire?
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/originals/69/cb/fb/69cbfbe3fdd579ff6bd08c12fab8051c.jpg)
Being in touch with the nevernever?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/68/e1/be/68e1be9a4b5fa4a7bea2e0185c30fda8.jpg)
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In Blood Rites Lord Raith tells Harry he heard the conversation between Harry and Thomas in the portrait room.
He did not know Harry was Thomas' brother before that. So, I don't think he realized Harry is the son of Margaret LeFay. Many do know that, but it is a detail Lord Raith might have missed.
APG
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In Blood Rites Lord Raith tells Harry he heard the conversation between Harry and Thomas in the portrait room.
He did not know Harry was Thomas' brother before that. So, I don't think he realized Harry is the son of Margaret LeFay. Many do know that, but it is a detail Lord Raith might have missed.
APG
Fair enough. I usually start my re-reads Dead Beat, and wind up skipping over Blood Rites (least favorite in the series), so my memory of it isn't as clear as I'd like it to be.
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In Blood Rites Lord Raith tells Harry he heard the conversation between Harry and Thomas in the portrait room.
He did not know Harry was Thomas' brother before that. So, I don't think he realized Harry is the son of Margaret LeFay. Many do know that, but it is a detail Lord Raith might have missed.
APG
Because Lord Raith is apparently an idiot.
Like really dude? It's very much public knowledge. It was at his trial. Nick knows, as do random low-level demons. Thomas knew for years at this point.
And yet you, Mr Super-Vamp leader of the White Court, only just realized?
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Because Lord Raith is apparently an idiot.
Like really dude? It's very much public knowledge. It was at his trial. Nick knows, as do random low-level demons. Thomas knew for years at this point.
And yet you, Mr Super-Vamp leader of the White Court, only just realized?
Repeat after me: The characters do not have access to the information we do. Just because a character doesn't have access to all 15 books and WOJ does not make them an idiot.
It's never been "public knowledge." What makes you think that White Council trials are public? They don't exactly put a notice in the local paper.
Even if it was knowledge among the wizards, what's the big thing wizards are known for? Not sharing what they know.
Nick knew Maggie personally, and, unlike Lord Raith, did have a frame of reference for how family works. It's a plot point in Changes that Lord Raith didn't even catch on that Maggie and Ebenezer were related, remember.
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If Thomas knew -before he'd even met Harry at that- then obviously the information was out there readily available. Lord Raith just didn't care enough to find out.
Also, Raith totally knew how family works. He deliberately instilled a sense of family loyalty in his children to make them less likely to rebel against him, remember?
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If Thomas knew -before he'd even met Harry at that- then obviously the information was out there readily available. Lord Raith just didn't care enough to find out.
Also, Raith totally knew how family works. He deliberately instilled a sense of family loyalty in his children to make them less likely to rebel against him, remember?
We don't know how or when Thomas found out. In any case, Thomas didn't do anything about it until he met Harry in Grave Peril.
It wasn't "readily available" like it was on a billboard that Lord Raith was ignoring. He didn't think he needed to look, so he didn't look.
Faking a sense of family loyalty is not the same thing. Ebenezer outright says that Raith didn't catch on to him and Maggie being related because he didn't have anything like a normal family.
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Another thing to consider is how the curse effected him. It drove him mad not being able to feed, and as Jim said it sandbagged the White Court for 30 years. Before it happened Raith was expanding, and after the curse he withdrew, becoming defensive. Chances are that Lord Raith just wasn't as cunning as he used to be because he was being constantly tormented by his Hunger, and fearful of anyone ever figuring out he had been cursed in that way.
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For what it's worth, my reading of the books indicates that Thomas picked up on his relationship to Harry when he saw Harry's pentacle. I don't think he knew, in Grave Peril, who Harry was to him. I think that he looked into this Harry Dresden fellow in between books, but went back to Harry after the masquerade because he suspected.
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For what it's worth, my reading of the books indicates that Thomas picked up on his relationship to Harry when he saw Harry's pentacle. I don't think he knew, in Grave Peril, who Harry was to him. I think that he looked into this Harry Dresden fellow in between books, but went back to Harry after the masquerade because he suspected.
Didn't he imply at some point that the reason he offered to help Harry and was friendly with him was because he knew? I thought so, but I could be mistaken.
I assumed he knew before GP.
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Didn't he imply at some point that the reason he offered to help Harry and was friendly with him was because he knew? I thought so, but I could be mistaken.
I assumed he knew before GP.
Would not be at all surprised if he already knew.
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Pretty sure you can't cast a Death Curse if you don't have magic.
Actually, I question that, because of the nature of a death curse.
Remember, a death curse works by drawing on the magical energy that makes a living creature a living creature, instead of aa mass of complicated organic compounds. That's why it kills you to throw it (or usually does, I can imagine freak circumstances where it might not quite kill you). Another way to think of a death curse is that it is self-human-sacrifice to power a spell.
That's why Harry was going to be able to throw one even when Aurora had him entrapped in a circle in Faerie. He was tapping into his own life-force which was already in the circle with him.
That suggests to me that a normal mundane, if they had the necessary magical knowledge, could probably throw a death curse, if they were ready to die to do it. It might not be as powerful as a Wizard's, but it would probably be plenty potent.
But...how would a normal learn that necessary knowledge in the first place? Why would they bother to study magic at that level of complexity, just to throw a spell one time that costs them their life to do it? Why would a Wizard or the equivalent teach someone that knowledge? It would be the equivalent of strapping on a suicide vest.
I suppose a ruthless Wizard might marshal a group of fanatics willing to do it, but somehow I suspect the Council would take a very dim view of a member weaponizing mundanes that way...they might even regard it as a violation of the First Law.
That said, I have little doubt Margaret still had access to her magic at the end. I suspect she would have to make use of it to evade the Court and the Council so long.
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The only info we have about it says that Maggie getting with Malcolm was her getting out of the plans and such she had with Lord Raith et al. Not that it was just another step in the plan.
He doesn't say she ended up loving him "in the end," just that she fell in love. I don't see anything in that description that would indicate that she met Malcolm for some ulterior motive -- Ebenezer clearly says she met him after running away from her former associates and, presumably, from the plans she had with them.
There seems to be this everpresent impression of Maggie Sr. of this ultimate planner that did everything completely purposefully and with foresight, but the evidence suggests she very much was not.
She was someone who slept with Lord Raith. On purpose. Multiple times.
If that alone doesn't spell, "Way too arrogant and really bad at predicting the outcomes of your actions," then nothing does.
As a rule, your master planners generally don't end up having to run away from damn near everyone on the planet that's aware of them for two years before being killed. That kind of thing happens to people who only think they're master planners.
This^^^.
I have never believed Margaret was this supergenius Xanatos-gambit-playing chessmistress. Nothing we know about her suggests anything of the sort, what we do know (including the testimony of her own 'shadow' to Harry) is that she was overconfident, arrogant, and in deep, deep over her head.
But I agree she probably did think she was all that, at some stage. Remember when Harry was looking the painting of Margaret that Lord Raith made? It captured that attitude.
My guess, and this is all it is, but I strongly suspect, that Margaret was a particular type. She was very, very intelligent (which is not the same as smart or wise), very powerful, and probably mastered her magic early, and outraced her peers fairly quickly.
My guess is that she was cocky and arrogant and her failures, such as they were, were not such as to teach her humility. She was probably very, very clever...and cleverness is not necessarily a virtue. It can easily be a vice if not coupled to practical humility.
So you have a very powerful witch, with a long of knowledge, not much practical experience, very intelligent but not much first-hand knowledge of people, not many failures to haunt her, all ready to fix everything and go around the rules and so forth. Naturally, she rapidly got into deep trouble once she was out on her own.
I suspect she figured she could handle the supersex, so why not enjoy it? More than a few drug addicts have ruined their lives starting from exactly the same overconfidence. "I can handle it."
Harry inherited a little of that tendency, but he's smarter than his mother, and his life has pounded some humility into him along the way, too. But remember the incident with Chaunzoggoroth? Dealing with him was exactly the sort of thing I suspect Margaret used to do all the time, and like his mother, Harry was in over his head. By luck (or maybe a bit of help from Michael's Boss), Harry found out quickly what he was really dealing with, before it was too late.
Harry's also been learning in recent books a lesson Margaret didn't learn in time, Harry's beginning to realize that his elders often have good reason for their stuffy, annoying rules.
Regarding whether she actually had a Coin, I tend to doubt it. But she did, I suspect, get a chance to study the Denarians up close. For one thing, remember that shadow-copy of herself that she placed in Thomas and Harry somehow, triggered when they soulgazed (or maybe it was in the pentacles). It's not Lash, but it looks to me like something she might have learned to create by studying the Denarians, a baby version of Lash, sort of.
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Lord Raith may not have known that Harry existed for a while. He probably didn't know about Maggie Sr.'s marriage -- if he had known that much about her, he probably would've been able to get to her sooner.
And he may not have known the exact mechanics of the curse against him. It's not like it would've popped up with an infobox detailing what's keeping it on him -- just, one day after he killed Maggie Sr., he couldn't feed. He might have guessed/presumed it was her death curse, but even if he did know it was anchored to her bloodline, he would've thought of Thomas first -- and given he didn't start trying to kill him when he was five, he apparently didn't know this for a while.
Long enough to have completely lost track of Harry and Malcolm Dresden, if he even knew about them in the first place. Hell, if he was aware of Malcolm Dresden, he's probably the type who would've tried to kill him immediately for the crime of taking a woman that Raith believed was his.
So to my mind, evidence points to Raith simply not knowing the nature of the curse against him or Harry's existence until much later in life.
This^^.
We need to keep in mind that other characters have their own stories going on at the same time as Harry. Just as Harry is learning things all the time, including some stuff others knew and didn't tell him, the same is true of the others. I'm sure Lord Raith learned a lot of things over the years as he went, and figured out some stuff, just as Harry has.
I also agree that if LR had known about Malcom and Margaret, he'd have gone after them immediately. Ditto the Wardens, they wouldn't have anything against Malcom, but the were definitely ready to serve warrants on Margaret, with swords.
As for the timing, it could be that LR just happened to track them down as she was about to give birth. Odd coincidences do happen all the time, even in real life. In this case, too, it might have been a 'coincidence'. That is, it might be that Lord Raith just happened to find out when he did, but his finding out still served some larger plan or chain of events unfolding.
We already know from Lash that it wasn't coincidence that Margaret broke away from LR when she did, but that doesn't mean it was anything she planned or set up or knew about.
As for Thomas, we already know he kept secrets from his family, but we don't know enough about his life before to form any conclusions about the details. We know he didn't even know he was supernatural until his first kill, but other than that, not much.
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WoJ is that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.
Could I have a link to that one?
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Could I have a link to that one?
Sorry, can't find it. I combed through the new WoJ site but couldn't find hide nor hare. But if I recall, it was someone asking if Lasciel knew what happened to Lash, and his response want that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.
Maybe someone else recalls it, or knows where it ended up.
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Sorry, can't find it. I combed through the new WoJ site but couldn't find hide nor hare. But if I recall, it was someone asking if Lasciel knew what happened to Lash, and his response want that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.
Maybe someone else recalls it, or knows where it ended up.
Didn't Lasciel consider it a type of humiliation or something too? It wasn't actually Lasciel but it was her shadow, a type of clone meaning that she too could have been influenced in that way?
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Actually, I question that, because of the nature of a death curse.
Remember, a death curse works by drawing on the magical energy that makes a living creature a living creature, instead of aa mass of complicated organic compounds. That's why it kills you to throw it (or usually does, I can imagine freak circumstances where it might not quite kill you). Another way to think of a death curse is that it is self-human-sacrifice to power a spell.
That's why Harry was going to be able to throw one even when Aurora had him entrapped in a circle in Faerie. He was tapping into his own life-force which was already in the circle with him.
That suggests to me that a normal mundane, if they had the necessary magical knowledge, could probably throw a death curse, if they were ready to die to do it. It might not be as powerful as a Wizard's, but it would probably be plenty potent.
But...how would a normal learn that necessary knowledge in the first place? Why would they bother to study magic at that level of complexity, just to throw a spell one time that costs them their life to do it? Why would a Wizard or the equivalent teach someone that knowledge? It would be the equivalent of strapping on a suicide vest.
I suppose a ruthless Wizard might marshal a group of fanatics willing to do it, but somehow I suspect the Council would take a very dim view of a member weaponizing mundanes that way...they might even regard it as a violation of the First Law.
That said, I have little doubt Margaret still had access to her magic at the end. I suspect she would have to make use of it to evade the Court and the Council so long.
The way I look at it, you need not only knowledge, but the ability to apply that knowledge, and "having magic" is about the latter.
Like, Butters by now knows a lot about magic, and Harry I think says Butters grasps the technical stuff better than he does. But Butters can't directly manipulate magical energy and cast spells himself -- he has Bob powering his stuff. So while Butters could probably get the knowledge of how to do a death curse, he lacks the ability to actually gather and shape his life energy in that manner.
You might know the mechanics of a car inside and out from having worked on them your whole life, but if you don't have a toolbox, you're not going to be able to do so much as turn a screw.
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Didn't Lasciel consider it a type of humiliation or something too? It wasn't actually Lasciel but it was her shadow, a type of clone meaning that she too could have been influenced in that way?
I think JB said that Harry couldn't have changed Lasciel. Maybe not in those exact words, but that was the gist. That Lash was malleable because part of he was Harry.
So I don't think Lasciel would have feared that. I think her motivation was her pride.
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The way I look at it, you need not only knowledge, but the ability to apply that knowledge, and "having magic" is about the latter.
Like, Butters by now knows a lot about magic, and Harry I think says Butters grasps the technical stuff better than he does. But Butters can't directly manipulate magical energy and cast spells himself -- he has Bob powering his stuff. So while Butters could probably get the knowledge of how to do a death curse, he lacks the ability to actually gather and shape his life energy in that manner.
You might know the mechanics of a car inside and out from having worked on them your whole life, but if you don't have a toolbox, you're not going to be able to do so much as turn a screw.
Yeah, but death curses are different, because the power source is different.
Keep in mind that JB has told us that everybody has some ability to use magic, but most people would have to work themselves to a frazzle for years to make anything significant happen, and even then it wouldn't be much. Some people have more natural ability to tap magical energy, some of this have even bigger intakes and these last are the potential Council-level Wizards.
But if you have for some reason mastered the knowledge, the power for a death curse doesn't have to be drawn in from outside, it comes from you. It's already there, ready to use. Everybody is magical, in the DV, the essence of life is magical. So there's no obvious reason why anybody with the knowledge couldn't throw a death curse...if they were willing to pay the price.
In fact, that might well explain the legends of people cursing someone on their death bed or with a dying breath, and results following. They might not have been Wizards, just people who managed a spontaneous, natural death curse.
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I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.
I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.
I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.
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I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.
I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.
I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.
Dr. Strange could have :D
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Sorry, can't find it. I combed through the new WoJ site but couldn't find hide nor hare. But if I recall, it was someone asking if Lasciel knew what happened to Lash, and his response want that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.
Maybe someone else recalls it, or knows where it ended up.
Didn't Lasciel have information from Lash from her time in Harry? In SG didn't Lasciel say somethings that only lash would know? been a while since I read SG so I cannot remember correctly.
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Dr. Strange could have :D
Honestly I very nearly name-dropped him as the example.
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I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.
I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.
I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.
Well, they could if they found the right master... or should I say, Ancient One... ::)
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Jim said that anyone who works hard can learn some magic. I think that it has less to do with forgetting, or being unable to tap into it once again after too long. I think it has to do with Choice. You have to really believe in what you're doing with magic for it to work. If you make the choice that you don't want to do magic anymore, you're basically neutering the most important requirement, belief.
Molly's mother for example. She can no longer do magic. However if some change in her happened where she had a strong desire, and absolute determined to use magic again, I think she'd get it back. It would take a lot of time to get her full power back probably. Years, or maybe a decade of work.
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Butters manage to manipulate magically forces, powered by Bob, like an engineer.
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Butters manage to manipulate magically forces, powered by Bob, like an engineer.
More that Butters engineered things for Bob to power and manipulate. Bob is the one doing all the leg work.
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I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.
I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.
I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.
Yeah, but it's two different potentials. What Harry and his ilk have that other people don't is a great ability to take in and use magical energy from outside themselves. Harry even has more of that than most Council Wizards.
But the power for a death curse comes from inside. You don't have to find it, draw it in, etc., it's already there waiting to be used...if you don't mind losing the purpose it's already serving. That's why even when entrapped in a circle that cuts off outside magical energy, it can still be used.
So it's not clear that you need any special abilities to do a death curse, just the necessary knowledge and skills.
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I don't think that a non-practitioner can do it, simply because pure Muggles (like Butter's) even possessing the necessary knowledge, lack the simple ability to manipulate the energy for the spell- so even if they have the life-force, they can't channel it.
And even if they did, it wouldn't be worth it. Even small-timers like Cassius can only pull off a rubbish Death Curse, it's really only relevant with higher-end Magic users. A regular mortal would probably just produce the equivalent of Darth Wannabe's Bad Feng Shui Curse.
Not really worth killing yourself for.
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I don't think that a non-practitioner can do it, simply because pure Muggles (like Butter's) even possessing the necessary knowledge, lack the simple ability to manipulate the energy for the spell- so even if they have the life-force, they can't channel it.
And even if they did, it wouldn't be worth it. Even small-timers like Cassius can only pull off a rubbish Death Curse, it's really only relevant with higher-end Magic users. A regular mortal would probably just produce the equivalent of Darth Wannabe's Bad Feng Shui Curse.
Not really worth killing yourself for.
lol if a 100% non magical user tried it would be like Mad Eye Moody said. You wouldn't even give them a bloody nose.
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Yeah, but it's two different potentials. What Harry and his ilk have that other people don't is a great ability to take in and use magical energy from outside themselves. Harry even has more of that than most Council Wizards.
But the power for a death curse comes from inside. You don't have to find it, draw it in, etc., it's already there waiting to be used...if you don't mind losing the purpose it's already serving. That's why even when entrapped in a circle that cuts off outside magical energy, it can still be used.
So it's not clear that you need any special abilities to do a death curse, just the necessary knowledge and skills.
Where are you getting the idea that Harry only ever uses outside power for his normal spells?
He and other wizards can use outside sources of power but their normal power also comes at least in part from inside themselves. Harry refers to how much he has "in the tank," not how much he can draw from outside. If all the power was coming from outside, then why does everybody keep referring to how much power/reserves a character has?
And, again, I am not talking about the power source itself. I am talking about the ability to shape and direct the power regardless of where it comes from.
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And, again, I am not talking about the power source itself. I am talking about the ability to shape and direct the power regardless of where it comes from.
If it is as you say, then yeah, it's impossible for Maggie to pull off a death curse. There's every reason to believe that "setting aside" your magic removes your ability to shape and redirect energy, regardless of source.
My question is whether or not setting magic aside removes your ability to shape, but rather your ability to sense. Less like a surgeon losing his hands, and more like his hands are shot up with Novocaine. It would make day to day magic so difficult that it's totally impractical to perform, but leaves open the possibility for doing something clumsy, out of desperation.
There is absolutely no evidence for this in the books, as the concept is only introduced three times (all three of which are related to the Carpenters, funny enough; Michael mentions it to Harry as a way to get rid of Lash, Charity actually did it, and Harry presents it as an option to Molly down the line, when she has a handle on her power. I'm sure there's an argument to be made that connects it to the Parable of the Talents, but that's outside this discussion, and not really relevant).
Anyway, I don't believe that Margaret's death curse was clumsy; it stuck to Raith, and magic slides off him. It was deliberate, focused, and effective in a way that other wizards weren't able to match since Etruria. Whether this is an artifact of its nature as a death curse or a testament to Margaret's skill I can't say, though I'd argue that it's reasonably likely that other wizards have fired death curses Papa Raith's way in the past. Maybe because it targeted Raith's connection to his Hunger rather than Raith himself? Or maybe because it was anchored to a bloodline, a persistent connection? Regardless, it wasn't the work of someone with numb hands; it was a sniper shot Kincaid would be proud of.
Though I do think the connection between Margaret's soulgaze message and Lash is very interesting. I haven't considered that in the past, but it really does seem like there is something similar about them. It wasn't just a recording—the pendant's ruby does that—it was a piece of Margaret. No idea how she was able to pull that off without understanding the way the Coins work, or at least the way something else we haven't seen does it.
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The numbness thing might be more apt as a comparison, since I believe Jim, when asked whether Charity could pick up magic again, likened it to someone who had once been a symphony musician but gave it up for years and years trying to reclaim their skills -- at the very least, it'd take years and years of work to get almost back to where they were before they gave it up, since their skills have atrophied.
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The numbness thing might be more apt as a comparison, since I believe Jim, when asked whether Charity could pick up magic again, likened it to someone who had once been a symphony musician but gave it up for years and years trying to reclaim their skills -- at the very least, it'd take years and years of work to get almost back to where they were before they gave it up, since their skills have atrophied.
I can dig that. I stopped playing the trumpet for a decade, and it took me half a year just to get my lip back (brass players know what I'm talking about). Symphonic orchestration and composition would be significantly more difficult.
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Where are you getting the idea that Harry only ever uses outside power for his normal spells?
He and other wizards can use outside sources of power but their normal power also comes at least in part from inside themselves. Harry refers to how much he has "in the tank," not how much he can draw from outside. If all the power was coming from outside, then why does everybody keep referring to how much power/reserves a character has?
It takes effort on the part of the person to use that outside energy. Yeah, the energy is there to be drawn on, but using it takes concentration and focus and effort that come from the character. Think back to Fool Moon, at one point Harry is so exhausted that he can barely manage to hex a small security camera.
He's not inside a circle, there's plenty of magical energy around. Another Wizard, fresh to fight, could have hexed the camera, or melted it with a blast of flame, or the like. But Harry was so tired that he couldn't make the magic flow. He even worries he might have overstrained his talent and done permanent damage.
Since then, he's built up his endurance and can throw a lot more magic, but it still takes effort and focus from him to manipulate external magical energy.
And, again, I am not talking about the power source itself. I am talking about the ability to shape and direct the power regardless of where it comes from.
But there's no reason to think that these are the same thing. JB has said that everybody has at least a little ability to use magic, so it's not the ability to manipulate the energy that is different in people like Harry, it's their ability to handle large amounts in a highly skilled way.
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It takes effort on the part of the person to use that outside energy. Yeah, the energy is there to be drawn on, but using it takes concentration and focus and effort that come from the character. Think back to Fool Moon, at one point Harry is so exhausted that he can barely manage to hex a small security camera.
He's not inside a circle, there's plenty of magical energy around. Another Wizard, fresh to fight, could have hexed the camera, or melted it with a blast of flame, or the like. But Harry was so tired that he couldn't make the magic flow. He even worries he might have overstrained his talent and done permanent damage.
Since then, he's built up his endurance and can throw a lot more magic, but it still takes effort and focus from him to manipulate external magical energy.
None of that says or confirms that it's referring to his ability to use /outside/ forces, just that he's having trouble using any forces at all.
You say he's exhausted. That tends to mean he's lacking in /internal/ energy. He's worried that he's lost his magic, not that he's lost the ability to use outside magic.
Yes, wizards /can/ draw in power from outside. But they also use power that's generated from themselves. What do you think Harry's doing when he throws together a spell from inside a circle?
But there's no reason to think that these are the same thing. JB has said that everybody has at least a little ability to use magic, so it's not the ability to manipulate the energy that is different in people like Harry, it's their ability to handle large amounts in a highly skilled way.
Yes, it is. Look at Butters: He has learned a lot about magic, but he cannot command power like Harry does. The best he can do -- after a couple years with Bob -- is build things for Bob to power and manipulate.
There is absolutely a difference in the ability to manipulate the energy.
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None of that says or confirms that it's referring to his ability to use /outside/ forces, just that he's having trouble using any forces at all.
You say he's exhausted. That tends to mean he's lacking in /internal/ energy. He's worried that he's lost his magic, not that he's lost the ability to use outside magic.
Yes, wizards /can/ draw in power from outside. But they also use power that's generated from themselves. What do you think Harry's doing when he throws together a spell from inside a circle?
Yes, it is. Look at Butters: He has learned a lot about magic, but he cannot command power like Harry does. The best he can do -- after a couple years with Bob -- is build things for Bob to power and manipulate.
There is absolutely a difference in the ability to manipulate the energy.
What goes on in the books, and what Jim says can lead to some confusion. I think he said something like a wizard will need some of his own power which allows him to tap into power from the never never which flows through him for his spells. I think that's why dark magic corrupts you, it has to go through your body... The Blackstaff seems to prevent this.
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None of that says or confirms that it's referring to his ability to use /outside/ forces, just that he's having trouble using any forces at all.
You say he's exhausted. That tends to mean he's lacking in /internal/ energy. He's worried that he's lost his magic, not that he's lost the ability to use outside magic.
That's not implied. Either one fits the statement equally well. Harry could have used up some inner 'reserve' of energy, yes, but he could just as easily be exhausted from manipulating outside energy. The overall trend of the series text is that most magical power, in humans, involves outside energies, except for death curses.
Yes, wizards /can/ draw in power from outside. But they also use power that's generated from themselves. What do you think Harry's doing when he throws together a spell from inside a circle?
Harry usually can't throw a spell from inside a circle. When he does, the implication is that he's using what energy is there inside the circle.
Remember Aurora's circle. Harry was basically helpless inside it, the only thing he could throw was his death curse. Aurora did consider this last a potential problem, but otherwise Harry was more or less magically neutralized.
We saw this in action when Nicodemus trapped Harry, Ivy, Kincaid, etc. in a big circle, too. Because it was a big circle, there was quite a bit of energy in it, but Harry muses that once that energy is all used up, he's 'just a guy with a gun'. Unless, of course, he threw a death curse.
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Look at Butters: He has learned a lot about magic, but he cannot command power like Harry does. The best he can do -- after a couple years with Bob -- is build things for Bob to power and manipulate.
There is absolutely a difference in the ability to manipulate the energy.
That's what I said. Most people have only a tiny ability to manipulate external magical energy, like Butters. What makes people like Harry different is their ability to manipulate large amounts of it.
But it remains to be established that the internal life energy is the same thing. You don't have to reach out to it, it's YOU, and you're it. So there's at least a good chance it follows different rules.
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What goes on in the books, and what Jim says can lead to some confusion. I think he said something like a wizard will need some of his own power which allows him to tap into power from the never never which flows through him for his spells. I think that's why dark magic corrupts you, it has to go through your body... The Blackstaff seems to prevent this.
That's how ritual magic works, too. You get something Powerful to send energy to you, so you can throw spells as if you were a Wizard (at least in terms of raw power, not necessarily skill).
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Harry usually can't throw a spell from inside a circle. When he does, the implication is that he's using what energy is there inside the circle.
Every single time he makes a tracking spell, he puts himself inside a circle.
He regularly refers to putting yourself inside a circle as a normal part of thaumaturgy, to keep outside power from interfering.
Remember Aurora's circle. Harry was basically helpless inside it, the only thing he could throw was his death curse. Aurora did consider this last a potential problem, but otherwise Harry was more or less magically neutralized.
No, that's not at all what that was about.
It wasn't that Harry could only cast his death curse in there. It was that if they broke the circle to kill him, then he'd be able to cast his Death Curse without it being blocked by the circle.
It wasn't at all about what power was available to him, it was about there being a barrier between him and Aurora that would have to come down for them to execute him.
Elaine caught Slate's wrist and said, "Wait."
Aurora gave Elaine a sharp and angry look. "What are you
doing?"
"Protecting you," Elaine said. "If you let Slate kill him, he'll break
the circle around Dresden."
Aurora looked from Elaine to me and back. "And?"
"Elaine!" I snarled.
She regarded me with flat eyes. "And you'll leave yourself open
to his death curse. He'll take you with him. Or make you wish he
had."
We saw this in action when Nicodemus trapped Harry, Ivy, Kincaid, etc. in a big circle, too. Because it was a big circle, there was quite a bit of energy in it, but Harry muses that once that energy is all used up, he's 'just a guy with a gun'. Unless, of course, he threw a death curse.
Harry says "usually" when you do a spell you draw in power from outside. Not that that's the only source except for a Death Curse.
Granted, the rest of that passage appears to support you. But there is still the fact that Harry quite often creates his spells from inside a circle.
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Every single time he makes a tracking spell, he puts himself inside a circle.
He regularly refers to putting yourself inside a circle as a normal part of thaumaturgy, to keep outside power from interfering.
But you still have the energy you bring into the circle with yourself for the spell, too. Harry's tracking spells, for ex, don't require much juice, they're more about skill.
We also don't know for sure if your own circle can't be selectively permeable, but that's speculative. Still, the fact that the tracking spell itself can work through circle suggests they might be.
I have no doubt there are sources of power other than the outside energies and the life-force itself. In fact we know they exist, such as the power behind the entropy curse, or the spell on Mickey Malone.
But what Harry and the other Wizards mostly use is that natural outside life-force flow.
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Every single time he makes a tracking spell, he puts himself inside a circle.
He regularly refers to putting yourself inside a circle as a normal part of thaumaturgy, to keep outside power from interfering.
I thought he made tracking spells in small circles in front of him, rather than around him. But I could be mistaken.
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Here's another indication that most magic comes from outside: JB's explanation of the 'thorn manacles'.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947671.html#msg947671
As far as how the thorn manacles work:
Essentially what it does is when a wizard’s drawing the magic in, the thorn manacles divert it to somewhere else. Wizards have to give a little bit of energy from inside themselves, but mostly that’s to pull it in from the outside. And the thorn manacles take that and go, “Nope, ok, we’re shunting it out into the Nevernever and you don’t get to use it.”
The pain is just a result of the energy that is going by and going elsewhere, it’s inefficiency of transfer, if you want to put it in engineering terms. That’s really nerdy, so I won’t do that.
Which hints to me that a death curse might also work even if a Wizard was thorn-manacled.
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I thought he made tracking spells in small circles in front of him, rather than around him. But I could be mistaken.
He was inside the circle with the windup duck, I know that much. "Thus do I strike another blow for anarchy," or some such line that followed. Also pretty sure he was inside the circle in Proven Guilty when he put up the Play-Doh web.
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He was inside the circle with the windup duck, I know that much. "Thus do I strike another blow for anarchy," or some such line that followed. Also pretty sure he was inside the circle in Proven Guilty when he put up the Play-Doh web.
That may be the case. The one instance I was recalling was the FM spell to track Tera and the kids at the beginning, but he clearly states he drew it around him.
I got out the lump of chalk I always keep in my duster pocket, and the circular plastic dome compass that rides a strip of velcro on my dashboard, then squatted down, my voluminous coat spreading out over my legs and ankles. I drew a rough circle upon the asphalt around me with the chalk.