Author Topic: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?  (Read 21009 times)

Offline exartiem

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2018, 01:42:50 AM »
The timing for Maggie to get the coin after leaving Raith isn't impossible, but is very unlikely.  She met Malcolm shortly after leaving Raith, and had Harry shortly after that.  And I can't imagine her having a coin while carrying Harry.

Has it been stated how long Maggie and Malcolm were together before Harry was conceived?

A coin could have helped her get away from Raith.  Then falling in love with Malcolm let her overcome the coin.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2018, 01:56:40 AM »
Has it been stated how long Maggie and Malcolm were together before Harry was conceived?

A coin could have helped her get away from Raith.  Then falling in love with Malcolm let her overcome the coin.
They were together in total for about a year and change. Maybe two.
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Offline thevickers

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2018, 02:55:06 AM »
That would make the family tree start with very twisted roots. Although it would shine an interesting light on changes at that point, with at least one of the coin holders threatened with the blood curse along with Harry. As well as giving at least 1 coin holder as a possible member of the grey council. Just to hedge bets against dying. That would be very weird for Harry to see a grey cloak fall open at the wrong angle and a noose show just a little...
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2018, 02:57:56 AM »
Is it time for 2018's first, "Malcolm Dresden was a Knight of the Cross" debate? 

Offline Kindler

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2018, 02:15:24 PM »
Nicodemus only had Lasciel's Coin available at the time he chucked it at Harry, according to Cassius Snakington. Yet Nicodemus also claims that he chose "definitely the right coin." Is this braggadocios nonsense, trying to play off his Ubermensch, Darwinian brand of evil villainy? Because it's really not much of a choice if it's the only one he has, but it does seem well within his characterization to play it off as a Machiavellian scheme to win Harry's loyalty. Alternately, did he specifically hold onto that Coin to distribute it to Harry (or someone specifically like him)?

Relevant to the thread: why is that the only Coin he had? Was he holding it for Harry? Did he get it back after Margaret (I have to separate the characters into Margaret, Maggie, and Molly to keep them straight in my head) set aside the Coin? Or did he have a few Coins in the bank and just lied to Cassius?

Intriguingly, did she have to set aside her magic to do so? Is that why she was vulnerable to Raith? I know she leveled her death curse his way, but we don't really know enough about the mechanics of setting aside a Coin after it's been taken up by a wizard-level talent, or the mechanics of death curses to rule it out (unless I'm forgetting something). We do know that setting aside magic doesn't remove it from the bloodline, because of Molly, so Harry's inheritance would remain intact. I can't think of anything that would rule it out.

Is it time for 2018's first, "Malcolm Dresden was a Knight of the Cross" debate? 


For what it's worth, I don't think that's the case. I think Malcolm's contribution to events in the Dresden Files was being a good dude.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2018, 02:22:56 PM »
My read on it was Harry would have had to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow, because his magic was effectively giving it life.

Taking up the coin, accepting the fallen, and then giving up the coin wouldn't require that, I don't think, because the shadow would've been absorbed back into the Fallen and giving up the coin then is the major choice and rejection.
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2018, 03:14:29 PM »
My read on it was Harry would have had to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow, because his magic was effectively giving it life.

Taking up the coin, accepting the fallen, and then giving up the coin wouldn't require that, I don't think, because the shadow would've been absorbed back into the Fallen and giving up the coin then is the major choice and rejection.

That's been my read on things, too, but I remember it being a point of contention.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2018, 05:13:32 PM »
My read on it was Harry would have had to give up his magic to get rid of the Shadow, because his magic was effectively giving it life.

Taking up the coin, accepting the fallen, and then giving up the coin wouldn't require that, I don't think, because the shadow would've been absorbed back into the Fallen and giving up the coin then is the major choice and rejection.
Do we have any proof that Maggie still had access to her magic when she had Harry/died?  Just curious, as I can't recall anything suggesting she did or didn't.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2018, 05:22:50 PM »
Do we have any proof that Maggie still had access to her magic when she had Harry/died?  Just curious, as I can't recall anything suggesting she did or didn't.
Pretty sure you can't cast a Death Curse if you don't have magic.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2018, 06:08:38 PM »
Pretty sure you can't cast a Death Curse if you don't have magic.
Good point.  Although if I were inclined to argue, I'd say that there was a WoJ on the potency of death curses being dependent on power level, and Maggie's curse (being anchored on two blood relatives for the ongoing support) might be more finesse than raw strength.

But I'm not really inclined to argue the point.  Lasciel's comment seemed to be more about Maggie getting a new source of power rather than losing what she had.  I'd believe that she fell in True Love with someone else before I'd believe that giving up her power would make it easier to break free.

Offline raidem

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2018, 06:24:21 PM »
Eb gave the impression that she fell in love with Malcolm in the end.  It therefore seemed like their association wasn't love on her end but a star born project that then blosssomed into something else.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2018, 07:54:16 PM »
Eb gave the impression that she fell in love with Malcolm in the end.  It therefore seemed like their association wasn't love on her end but a star born project that then blosssomed into something else.
The only info we have about it says that Maggie getting with Malcolm was her getting out of the plans and such she had with Lord Raith et al. Not that it was just another step in the plan.

Quote
"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some
reason she turned away from her previous associates—including
Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from
her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years.
And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
I stared at him in pained fascination. "What happened?"
"She met your father. A man. A mortal, without powers, without
influence, without resources. But a man with a good soul, like few I
have ever seen. I believe that she fell in love with him. But on the
night you were born, one of her former allies found her and
exacted his vengeance for her desertion."

He doesn't say she ended up loving him "in the end," just that she fell in love. I don't see anything in that description that would indicate that she met Malcolm for some ulterior motive -- Ebenezer clearly says she met him after running away from her former associates and, presumably, from the plans she had with them.

There seems to be this everpresent impression of Maggie Sr. of this ultimate planner that did everything completely purposefully and with foresight, but the evidence suggests she very much was not.

She was someone who slept with Lord Raith. On purpose. Multiple times.

If that alone doesn't spell, "Way too arrogant and really bad at predicting the outcomes of your actions," then nothing does.

As a rule, your master planners generally don't end up having to run away from damn near everyone on the planet that's aware of them for two years before being killed. That kind of thing happens to people who only think they're master planners.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 08:17:38 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2018, 08:19:56 PM »
Hey Griff, haven't seen you post in the section in a while.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2018, 09:21:39 PM »
Do we have any proof that Maggie still had access to her magic when she had Harry/died?  Just curious, as I can't recall anything suggesting she did or didn't.
She made stone for Harry with all her info on the Ways.  Not necessarily when she died, but it's a safe bet she knew he was on the way, and it probably wasn't for Thomas (being a Wampire, his mortal magic probably wasn't on the same level).

Offline Kindler

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2018, 02:22:57 PM »
She made stone for Harry with all her info on the Ways.  Not necessarily when she died, but it's a safe bet she knew he was on the way, and it probably wasn't for Thomas (being a Wampire, his mortal magic probably wasn't on the same level).

Point of order: the stone was given to Lea to give to Harry, not necessarily made for him. In the text, it functions like a doctor or researcher's notes; she even has aside dialogue about a rough landing (something like "don't wear a dress next time, some farmer will get a show," if I remember correctly). It is my reading that she made it for herself, then left it to Harry in her pseudo-will. I could be wrong here; I'm going just from what we know about it in Changes.

Not saying one way or the other that she had set aside her magic; I was simply raising the question in my original post.

As for the death curse, I don't know enough about how they function to say whether or not it would still work, and I think we don't have enough information about what Michael truly meant by setting aside magic. It could be setting aside the function by which their wizard senses work—they can't pull energy from the environment, etc., but they can still draw on their life energy to back a spell; after all, non-wizards can do magic, too—what limits them is their ability to tap into those external resources. Harry compares it to a deaf-blind-mute learning to paint.

There seems to be this everpresent impression of Maggie Sr. of this ultimate planner that did everything completely purposefully and with foresight, but the evidence suggests she very much was not.

I agree. I don't think she had a Grand Design; I think she was curious and defiant, and got into some stuff way, way too deeply before she realized how terrible it was all going to be. I think that once she was snapped out of her deluded lifestyle, she reacted by doing what she did best: running. That was after she had decided to correct what she messed up, landed on the idea of a Starborn, and went about the business of making one herself. That gave her the push she needed to break away, met Malcolm, fell for him, and aligned the circumstances of Harry's birth (not sure if it's significant, but Lash doesn't say the circumstances of his conception, but specifically his birth).

Further evidence of Margaret's lack of foresight is her defiance toward the Laws; Luccio provides a perfectly reasonable and credible argument for keeping them as high-level and simple as possible, but evidently that kind of argument didn't work too well on Margaret.