Jim even has plans to write a "Mirror Mirror" book. Apparently Marcone is supposed to play a big roll in this book.
Jim has said that in the DF universe, pretty much everything exists (Bob has corroborated it in book too). Spiderman? Yup he's around somewhere (kinda in the nevernever).I think this has been widely over analyzed. The NN is the spirit realm, it contains thoughtforms not alternate reality. if spiderman existed in the NN he wouldn't be real. to break through verse barriers requires space time manipulation in the real world. Properly a metaverse is a verse in which every choice in history has been made every way possible in some timeline. So there is a verse were Harry used the ley line in CD, theres also one were a spider bit someone and gave them superpowers. to get to any one dimension one must travel to the moment it was made, like in back to the future. spidermans verse was created in that moment. but the verse it spun from wasn't ever close to Harry's. you'd have to find the moments in creation were worlds with different mechanics were formed and travel forward from there to reach it.
I've been wondering for a good while if that book is when we learn Marcone's real name, since we know John Marcone is not his true name.Have a really great WAG here. One of the first things said by Marcone in Even Hand is he made a choice to be who he is. I think this choice is why he had summer hunter green eyes in his youth and money colored now. Marcone is thd Erlkings heir. He chose human without ever understanding his decision. In Mirrior Mirrior he will have made a different choice or not chosen yet at all. oh and
all the things that have transpired in the book are a lead up to all these big heavies gearing up for a major power shift along this level of magnitude.Its gearing up for the gyre to reset itself. Harry is the Merlin(person) of our era just as Mab is the guardian. This is how/why Merlin has created DR 5 times, at the same time. The archatype of the character known as merlin has respun it every time the gyre restarts itself again. its happened 5 times since humanities inception, thus defining the current order of the universe.
Have a really great WAG here. One of the first things said by Marcone in Even Hand is he made a choice to be who he is. I think this choice is why he had summer hunter green eyes in his youth and money colored now. Marcone is thd Erlkings heir. He chose human without ever understanding his decision. In Mirrior Mirrior he will have made a different choice or not chosen yet at all. oh and(click to show/hide)
It explains that certain vast 'stars' (or aggregates of experience) may be described as Gods. One of these is in charge of the destinies of this planet for periods of 2000 years. *(The moment of change is technically called The Equinox of the Gods)Could be describing Mabs position of 'being in charge' Or in my slightly more out there idea is Its more a neutral position, where in they Will reality to continue to be reality. The center that cannot hold either way i say. Ties in somewhat mythologically as Crowley defines 3 periods and there are three main recognised runes upon the stone table, and Crowley placed emphasis on the egyptian gods, runes of which were on the stone table and mentioned obliquely elsewhere in DFs.
Spider man isn't 'just in the NN'. the NN contains other worlds that the DF earth; there is room in there for 9,188,2801,591,004,303,761,991,879,201,232,836,019,976,271,010,838,154,206,141 possible alternate earths... and from the WOJ, some of them aren't earth at all, but alien worlds. Very possibly the source worlds for the Canim, Marat.. maybe even the outsiders ;DSo? All that proves is the NN spirit realm contains thoughtforms from other planets. Doesn't make it reality and Sorry ducky, your Numeromancy doesn't impress without sound logical reasoning taken from cannon. The NN isn't reality and while it can contain alternate worlds it doesn't make them 'real' in the technical sense. All I infer from this is that since the NN only physically encompasses earth and moon, it used to be bigger. The alien worlds in it exist in spirit only because the outside has already retaken them.
so yes, its a dang big multiverse ;D
Uh, wizard nelson, I don't really understand what you're saying. Because something exists in the NN, it isn't real? You mean, like, Faerie? Seems sorta real...
Also, I'm new here, kind of. What's a Mirror Mirror book?
EDIT: Never mind, I found it. Cool stuff...
So? All that proves is the NN spirit realm contains thoughtforms from other planets. Doesn't make it reality and Sorry ducky, your Numeromancy doesn't impress without sound logical reasoning taken from cannon. The NN isn't reality and while it can contain alternate worlds it doesn't make them 'real' in the technical sense. All I infer from this is that since the NN only physically encompasses earth and moon, it used to be bigger. The alien worlds in it exist in spirit only because the outside has already retaken them.
Dudesan: Do The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera share the same metacosmology? Were the many migrations (such as the ancestors of the Alerans, the Marat, and the Canim) through the Nevernever? Should we worry about a Vord invasion of Earth? Bob mentioned that many worlds thought to be fictional do exist in some sense- I think his example is that "Spider-man is real... somewhere out there. What, you think this is the only world?"
Jim: 2) What kind of insane person would design a universe like that? Next you're going to come up with some kind of theory about how a single extended family bloodline runs through all of these obviously unrelated story universes, and how all of my central heroes actually belong to one family.
Psssh. No one's going to buy that.
Dudesan: What we've seen of the cosmology of The Dresden Files seems very Earth-centric. Is that because everything really does revolve around the Earth[1] , or because we're seeing only a tiny slice of a much bigger picture? Are there other planets in real-space inhabited by extraterrestrial sentient beings? If so, do they have their own analogues of wizards, fairies, gods, etc? Are supernatural things influenced by their belief as it is by those of humans? If so, to what extent do these "spheres of influence" overlap?
Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.
I really need to watch all of the Buffy seasons. Apparently Jim's idea of a Mirror Mirror story is strongly influenced by an episode in one of the later seasons.
P.S. I didn't even have a TV for the 4 years between 2000 and 2003
The NN isn't reality and while it can contain alternate worlds it doesn't make them 'real' in the technical sense.
All I infer from this is that since the NN only physically encompasses earth and moon, it used to be bigger. The alien worlds in it exist in spirit only because the outside has already retaken them.
haven't had one in 15 years, don't miss it :D
That sounds like an assumption that the size of the NN has to extend in the same directions as size in Earthly space. For which I am also not seeing any support.
I think that at the very least, there has to be some sort of topological 1-1 mapping. After all, I think we have evidence that you can open a portal to the RW anywhere in the NN.
I really need to watch all of the Buffy seasons. Apparently Jim's idea of a Mirror Mirror story is strongly influenced by an episode in one of the later seasons.
P.S. I didn't even have a TV for the 4 years between 2000 and 2003
In White Night it was said that a portal opened in the same spot by two different people could end up going to different places in the NN though.
I think that at the very least, there has to be some sort of topological 1-1 mapping. After all, I think we have evidence that you can open a portal to the RW anywhere in the NN.
I really need to watch all of the Buffy seasons. Apparently Jim's idea of a Mirror Mirror story is strongly influenced by an episode in one of the later seasons.
P.S. I didn't even have a TV for the 4 years between 2000 and 2003
The volume of the NN in three dimensions exists out to lunar orbit; in CD its implied it's 11 dimensional.
The volume of the NN in three dimensions exists out to lunar orbit; in CD its implied it's 11 dimensional. That's a lot of damn room.Who says that there's only life on Earth? All we know is that you can't get further than there in the NN. Doesn't mean that that's all there is.
as magic comes from life, and the NN is supported by magic, I think the idea that it ever extended farther than the moon is a bit dubious.
I don't recall that exact quote, but I thought it had to do with different people opening the portal in a slightly different position. 1mm in RW == worlds apart in the NN.
Note also that this is somewhat contradicted by Harry in TC, re: the back of the storage unit, or the fact that Harry manages to follow his mother's NN travel instructions to a T.
Gates to the spirit world paid absolutely no attention to trivial things like geography - they obeyed laws of imagination, intention, patterned thought. Even if Cowl was back there, he wouldn't be able to open a gate to the same place as mine, because he didn't think like me, feel like me, or share my intent and purpose.
as magic comes from life, and the NN is supported by magic, I think the idea that it ever extended farther than the moon is a bit dubious.There's just a bit too much human self importance in that statement for a duck to be making :P Realistically We know there are planets that can support life out there. So in a Verse created with pseudo-science why wouldn't this be true?
There's just a bit too much human self importance in that statement for a duck to be making :P Realistically We know there are planets that can support life out there. So in a Verse created with pseudo-science why wouldn't this be true?
Who says that there's only life on Earth? All we know is that you can't get further than there in the NN. Doesn't mean that that's all there is.
Even in this reality, I don't buy that somehow the NN is only an infinitesimal fraction of our actual universe. I mean, that's not even one AU. That's not even the area of the Sun in 3D space. Much less the areas that humanity has expanded to via satellite and probe.
My understanding of (admittedly, a half remembered quote) is that Earth to the Moon is about as far as you can travel, but not as far as there is, in the same way that about 40 Km is the highest we can fly. There's PLENTY more out there, we just can't get to it right now.
the reason given for why it would open elsewhere was different.
Fair enough, but then you really do have a seeming contradiction re: the shed in TC, the Fetches in PG and Ways in general.
And yet, still only a miniscule fraction of a fraction of a fraction of even our solar system, much less the universe as we know it.
Of course, if they can unfold those extra dimensions into something more akin to 3D space, then that's all fairly pointless, as a straight line can involve curves and other wacky spacetime shenanigans to make the distances whatever anyone wants.
The alternate universe story in Buffy is the classic "how the world would look if "x" didn't happen" story. Specifically, a scorned women has a wish that "Buffy never came to Sunnydale" (Harry never came to Chicago) granted, and the episode explores the effects that has on the various characters lives - most importantly that Buffy wasn't there to stop the big bad Master from Season 1. Interestingly, the events in the alternate universe play out in accordance with an important prophecy from the real world, with a different ultimate outcome, largely because Mirror Buffy (who is still the Slayer and still trying to save the world) is more of a ruthless warrior like the Morgan or the Merlin than a compassionate savior with loyal friends.
If he wanted to parallel that story, he'd have to change a defining moment in Harry's life and see what happens. For example, Harry might not have killed Justin or maybe he was never orphaned in the first place, which means Harry might never have stopped the Three Eye Drug and Victor Sells could be the kingpin of a magical drug cartel ruling Chicago.
the NN seems to change, albeit at a slow rate. Many of the predictions made by Maggie sr 40 years ago still work just fien, for example.
Fair enough, but then you really do have a seeming contradiction re: the shed in TC, the Fetches in PG and Ways in general.
At first I thought you ment The Shedd (http://www.sheddaquarium.org/) in SmF. If instead you mean the portal Harry used to get to Edinburg from Chicago (I think it was near a slaughterhouse) that was monitored by the contracted out P.I. and Mouse, yah, that certainly seems to contradict things. Plus Harry's experiences following his Mother's advice.
At first I thought you ment The Shedd (http://www.sheddaquarium.org/) in SmF. If instead you mean the portal Harry used to get to Edinburg from Chicago (I think it was near a slaughterhouse) that was monitored by the contracted out P.I. and Mouse, yah, that certainly seems to contradict things. Plus Harry's experiences following his Mother's advice.
I think those apparent contradictions could be remedied by considering the intent though.
The underlying point I was trying to make though, is that it isn't necessarily a 1:1 topographical correlation between the mortal world and the NN.
I had a prof in my junior year who was lecturing on mathematical fields (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics)) do a pretty good job of explaining how you could topographically map an infinite plane onto a sphere. That took some mind bending.
The underlying point I was trying to make though, is that it isn't necessarily a 1:1 topographical correlation between the mortal world and the NN.
I don't remember the textual evidence I have for this, but consider the following thought experiment:
1) If the NN:RW mapping is not 1:1, than there exists a point (call it omega) in the RW that maps to two different NN points. Specifically, opening a portal from the NN to the RW from either of those two points will get you to omega. (Talking here about the same wizard at the same time, same state of mind -- assume that all the hidden variables are identical).
2) Now open a portal from omega to the NN. Presumably, you have to get to one of those two spots. Unless you say one of those spots is chosen randomly (which opens a can of worms, as now you have have to open a portal multiple times, until you get the right one), that means there's a deterministic method for choosing where the portal from omega goes to.
3) So I have a case where I open a portal from the NN to RW, step through, close it and right away open it again, and step back into the NN in a totally different spot.
I'll admit that I cannot recall any textual evidence that proves beyond doubt that this state of affairs is impossible in the DV, but if the NN:RW mapping really works that way, I submit that it would be the norm rather than the exception (it's a mapping -- this will be happening everywhere), and Harry would have explicitly mentioned it.
Harry has been told, and has observed many times that he has a lot to learn about opening gateways.
1) Vadderung opened a Gateway at Chichen Itza that went straight to Chicago. I'd bet good money that if Harry opened a Gateway in the exact same place it would go somewhere else.
2) Every time Cowl opens up a portal, where ever it may be from, it has the same smells and it is implied it is to the same place. Peabody's portal near the end of TC seems to be to the same place as well. It wasn't stated in the text that the physical Edenburg exit Peabody ran to was or wasn't the one that leads to the way that Harry uses to get to Chicago, but it is quite likely that most other gateways opened by wizards other than Peabody's don't go to where Peabody's opened to. In fact, I think the text pretty much even states that if Peabody's had closed Harry wouldn't have been able to get to the same place.
Finally, the Gatekeeper's comments about Harry's making it to the Outer Gates, make me think that there may be places in the NN that don't directly map to the mortal world. This may be too much supposition, especially when you consider that Jim has said things that imply that you could get there, you would just have to find a different way that would get you to the surface of the moon first.
Very nice summary.
Should also point out that in GS, Harry thinks to himself about creating a demesne for himself, so possibly shaping isn't that hard -- though I suppose it might just be the "bubble" sort that Hagglehorn created.
Actually, I was talking about the storage rental space Harry hides Michael in. The back wall of the storage room "coincidentally" opens up directly onto a "way".
Heck, what about Harry's basement? You've got to assume that anyone stepping into the NN from there had to run into Lea's garden, otherwise what's the point? How about Corpsetaker's NN defences? If a portal opens to a different place depending on which wizard opens it, how can you ever have a single point of defence?