Author Topic: Meta concept of how the DF will/is playing out [CD, MM and BAT Spoilers]  (Read 14048 times)

Offline Serack

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Jim has said that in the DF universe, pretty much everything exists (Bob has corroborated it in book too).  Spiderman?  Yup he's around somewhere (kinda in the nevernever).  A place long long ago and far far away where the things are governed by the Force?  Yup, and Harry could even conceivably get there, but once he did, he probably wouldn't be able to use his wizard magic, and would be stuck as a pleb.

Jim even has plans to write a "Mirror Mirror" book.  Apparently Marcone is supposed to play a big roll in this book.

Additionally, beings along the power levels of Uriel are not necessarily limited to dealing with what happens in the reality/timeline that Harry and the books are transpiring in.  Instead he is dealing with the entire tapestry of possible realities and timelines that can and do branch forth from every moment.  In my mind this is heavily influenced by free will choices causing all these branches and parallels.

The point I am getting at, is that in the DF, Reality is a lot more expansive and encompassing than what just one puny "living" mortal can exist in and fathom.  And conflicts like the Outsiders trying to break into our reality and subsume it, are actually existing and transpiring on that higher level of breath.  Apparently, all the things that have transpired in the book are a lead up to all these big heavies gearing up for a major power shift along this level of magnitude.  When Vaderrung and the Gatekeeper say that Harry's dalliance with death makes him even more of a fulcrum to affect change, they are saying that he has brushed with this higher level of existence.  The consequences of that experience and all this additional build up is that he will be the axis that all these changes throughout the entire breath of the tapestry of reality will pivot on.


Some theorizing pulled from later posts in this topic:

Some more NN theorizing:

I believe it was in GP that Bob talked about dreams and shades making pockets in the NN.  I had intended to mention Agatha Hathorne's pocket in the NN in my last post but forgot, and you beat me to it elsewhere. 

It's interesting that Lea can walk into Agatha Hathorne's NN pocket from elsewhere on the NN side of things...*

So thinking in terms of Chicago and the NN, there are probably multiple dimensions of the NN that are overlayed over the Mortal plane (I prefer that term over RL)
  • There is the plane that Harry cruised around during the beginning of GS,
  • The plane that Harry cruised around in during the rest of GS that parrallels the Mortal plane close enough that he could see most of what was transpiring in it, but most mortals couldn't percieve back in the other direction (I'll call this the GS plane). 
    • I suspect most of "Heaven's" crew normally typically operate on a seperate plane that Uriel took Harry too at the end of GS.  One that even the "ghostly attuned" can't percieve
  • Then there are the pocket planes that can be overlayed between that GS plane and the Mortal Plane that are shaped from the will of certain mortals or mortal shades like the shade of Agatha Hathorn.
  • Planes that can be brought to be by supernatural beings
    • Mab and Titania's "over chicago" battle royalle plane specifically mapped the topography of the land it overlayed.
  • Various "Ways" and portions of Fae and other NN realms (I.E. Hades, down below, olympia, whatever) that topographically connect to the mortal realm because of similar natures.  This seems to mostly** be a seperate set from all the above.
  • I suspect there are parallel dimensions that split off based off of mortal decisions and such.  These dimensions are things that beings like Uriel have enough oomph to have domain over as I mentioned in my OP.
  • Interestingly, judging off of what Lea mentioned in GS about records of human experiences being stored in places other than their wetware, plus some of Harry's experiences with Lash, I suspect there are levels of existance where these "records" exist, and I highly suspect that beings of angelic nature exist on/have access to them.

Interestingly, sufficiently powerful beings seem to be able to shape a preexisting portion of the NN to their desires, not unlike a construction crew can shape a hillside for a subdivision.  Remember Evil Bob's Normandy, and Lea's garden.

Harry's "Nevernever" term is a catch all term that refers to all of the above plus more that he might not even be aware of (not unlike his usage of the term "demon"). 

By the way, it is my opinion that Harry's trip to the grey fuzzy areas of life and death have given him a certain affinity to these extra planar portions of the NN in such a way that he can possibly visit them or otherwise capitalize on (or be capitalized on from muahahaha) them in ways that other mortals can't. 

*Lea exists on more than one plane though, as evidenced by her being corporeal to Ghostly Harry
**emphasis on "mostly"
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 06:35:55 PM by Serack »
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Offline phoenixjustice

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Jim even has plans to write a "Mirror Mirror" book. Apparently Marcone is supposed to play a big roll in this book.

I've been wondering for a good while if that book is when we learn Marcone's real name, since we know John Marcone is not his true name.


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wizard nelson

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Jim has said that in the DF universe, pretty much everything exists (Bob has corroborated it in book too).  Spiderman?  Yup he's around somewhere (kinda in the nevernever).
I think this has been widely over analyzed. The NN is the spirit realm, it contains thoughtforms not alternate reality. if spiderman existed in the NN he wouldn't be real. to break through verse barriers requires space time manipulation in the real world. Properly a metaverse is a verse in which every choice in history has been made every way possible in some timeline. So there is a verse were Harry used the ley line in CD, theres also one were a spider bit someone and gave them superpowers. to get to any one dimension one must travel to the moment it was made, like in back to the future. spidermans verse was created in that moment. but the verse it spun from wasn't ever close to Harry's. you'd have to find the moments in creation were worlds with different mechanics were formed and travel forward from there to reach it.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 06:50:04 AM by wizard nelson »

wizard nelson

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I've been wondering for a good while if that book is when we learn Marcone's real name, since we know John Marcone is not his true name.
Have a really great WAG here. One of the first things said by Marcone in Even Hand is he made a choice to be who he is. I think this choice is why he had summer hunter green eyes in his youth and money colored now. Marcone is thd Erlkings heir. He chose human without ever understanding his decision. In Mirrior Mirrior he will have made a different choice or not chosen yet at all. oh and
(click to show/hide)

wizard nelson

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all the things that have transpired in the book are a lead up to all these big heavies gearing up for a major power shift along this level of magnitude.
Its gearing up for the gyre to reset itself. Harry is the Merlin(person) of our era just as Mab is the guardian. This is how/why Merlin has created DR 5 times, at the same time. The archatype of the character known as merlin has respun it every time the gyre restarts itself again. its happened 5 times since humanities inception, thus defining the current order of the universe.

Offline phoenixjustice

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Have a really great WAG here. One of the first things said by Marcone in Even Hand is he made a choice to be who he is. I think this choice is why he had summer hunter green eyes in his youth and money colored now. Marcone is thd Erlkings heir. He chose human without ever understanding his decision. In Mirrior Mirrior he will have made a different choice or not chosen yet at all. oh and
(click to show/hide)

I've heard that WAG before, by Ms Duck I think. Makes sense.

As for the
(click to show/hide)
That is also an opinion I've seen thrown around and honestly that'd be cool, but there's only one problem with that; he's too short. :P


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wizard nelson

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Found a quote I've been looking for to farther the concept I think is behind the DF. Aleister Crowley book of law pg 11, Explaining a chapter
Quote
It explains that certain vast 'stars' (or aggregates of experience) may be described as Gods. One of these is in charge of the destinies of this planet for periods of 2000 years. *(The moment of change is technically called The Equinox of the Gods)
Could be describing Mabs position of 'being in charge'  Or in my slightly more out there idea is Its more a neutral position, where in they Will reality to continue to be reality. The center that cannot hold either way i say.  Ties in somewhat mythologically as Crowley defines 3 periods and there are three main recognised runes upon the stone table, and Crowley placed emphasis on the egyptian gods, runes of which were on the stone table and mentioned obliquely elsewhere in DFs.

also aggregates of experience is an interesting concept, one could say Ivy is the AoE of mankind or The Mabs the AoE of winter
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 11:25:11 AM by wizard nelson »

Offline Ms Duck

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Spider man isn't 'just in the NN'. the NN contains other worlds that the DF earth; there is room in there for 9,188,2801,591,004,303,761,991,879,201,232,836,019,976,271,010,838,154,206,141 possible alternate earths... and from the WOJ, some of them aren't earth at all, but alien worlds. Very possibly the source worlds for the Canim, Marat.. maybe even the outsiders  ;D

so yes, its a dang big multiverse  ;D
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline Rasins

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Nope.  There is only one universe.  It was created the moment I was conceived and will cease to exist the moment I cease to exist.

Everything else is for my entertainment.

So speaks Mister.
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wizard nelson

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Spider man isn't 'just in the NN'. the NN contains other worlds that the DF earth; there is room in there for 9,188,2801,591,004,303,761,991,879,201,232,836,019,976,271,010,838,154,206,141 possible alternate earths... and from the WOJ, some of them aren't earth at all, but alien worlds. Very possibly the source worlds for the Canim, Marat.. maybe even the outsiders  ;D

so yes, its a dang big multiverse  ;D
So? All that proves is the NN spirit realm contains thoughtforms from other planets. Doesn't make it reality and Sorry ducky, your Numeromancy doesn't impress without sound logical reasoning taken from cannon. The NN isn't reality and while it can contain alternate worlds it doesn't make them 'real' in the technical sense. All I infer from this is that since the NN only physically encompasses earth and moon, it used to be bigger. The alien worlds in it exist in spirit only because the outside has already retaken them.

Offline soundsofsilence

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Uh, wizard nelson, I don't really understand what you're saying. Because something exists in the NN, it isn't real? You mean, like, Faerie? Seems sorta real...

Also, I'm new here, kind of. What's a Mirror Mirror book?

EDIT: Never mind, I found it. Cool stuff...
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 04:52:56 AM by soundsofsilence »
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Offline Serack

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Uh, wizard nelson, I don't really understand what you're saying. Because something exists in the NN, it isn't real? You mean, like, Faerie? Seems sorta real...

Also, I'm new here, kind of. What's a Mirror Mirror book?

EDIT: Never mind, I found it. Cool stuff...

I really need to watch all of the Buffy seasons.  Apparently Jim's idea of a Mirror Mirror story is strongly influenced by an episode in one of the later seasons.

P.S.  I didn't even have a TV for the 4 years between 2000 and 2003
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Offline Ms Duck

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So? All that proves is the NN spirit realm contains thoughtforms from other planets. Doesn't make it reality and Sorry ducky, your Numeromancy doesn't impress without sound logical reasoning taken from cannon. The NN isn't reality and while it can contain alternate worlds it doesn't make them 'real' in the technical sense. All I infer from this is that since the NN only physically encompasses earth and moon, it used to be bigger. The alien worlds in it exist in spirit only because the outside has already retaken them.

got any canon to back that up? because Jim says they are real.

Quote
Dudesan: Do The Dresden Files and The Codex Alera share the same metacosmology? Were the many migrations (such as the ancestors of the Alerans, the Marat, and the Canim) through the Nevernever? Should we worry about a Vord invasion of Earth? Bob mentioned that many worlds thought to be fictional do exist in some sense- I think his example is that "Spider-man is real... somewhere out there. What, you think this is the only world?"
Jim: 2) What kind of insane person would design a universe like that? Next you're going to come up with some kind of theory about how a single extended family bloodline runs through all of these obviously unrelated story universes, and how all of my central heroes actually belong to one family.
Psssh. No one's going to buy that.
Dudesan: What we've seen of the cosmology of The Dresden Files seems very Earth-centric. Is that because everything really does revolve around the Earth[1] , or because we're seeing only a tiny slice of a much bigger picture? Are there other planets in real-space inhabited by extraterrestrial sentient beings? If so, do they have their own analogues of wizards, fairies, gods, etc? Are supernatural things influenced by their belief as it is by those of humans? If so, to what extent do these "spheres of influence" overlap?
Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.

Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline Ms Duck

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I really need to watch all of the Buffy seasons.  Apparently Jim's idea of a Mirror Mirror story is strongly influenced by an episode in one of the later seasons.

P.S.  I didn't even have a TV for the 4 years between 2000 and 2003

haven't had one in 15 years, don't miss it :D
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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The NN isn't reality and while it can contain alternate worlds it doesn't make them 'real' in the technical sense.

Where do you get the notion that it contains them, rather than allowing access to them ?

Quote
All I infer from this is that since the NN only physically encompasses earth and moon, it used to be bigger. The alien worlds in it exist in spirit only because the outside has already retaken them.

That sounds like an assumption that the size of the NN has to extend in the same directions as size in Earthly space.  For which I am also not seeing any support.
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