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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on August 18, 2019, 06:12:15 AM
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These are some questions I’ve had about the series in general. While I have my own theories, I’m curious about what you all think.
- From a narrative/ furthering the series standpoint, what is the purpose of Ghost Story? While it gave us a much more detailed perspective on tertiary characters (like Mort) & a good overview of the ghost/spirit world, what was the point of the novel? It seems like the central plot could’ve been boiled down to a longer short story
- Why is Sanya shown as being a bit clumsy? There are a couple of explicit & random instances, like in SmF when he accidentally cuts Harry’s leg while trying to remove the kelpies on the boat to DR. From a Doylist perspective, why is this relevant? Especially since Michael is never shown as being remotely clumsy, or any other action-character really
- In the beginning chapters of CD, Sarissa tells Lord Gruff that helping Harry’s convalescence was Mab’s price, but for what? What is Mab doing for Sarissa that she charges her a favor for it? Protection?
- Since water is anathema to magic, what happens if Demonreach is hit by a tsunami? It is an island after all....
- What is the current headcount of the White Council? Archangel & the Ramp war likely took a large toll on the already small body of the White Council (500-1000 total WC wizard count IIRC). After PG, ~200 wardens had become 50. After Peabody’s attack in TC, 20-30 wizards more wizards seem to have died. So how many wizards are left on the WC? Did they lose nearly 33-50% of their number in the decade since GP?
- What exactly happens when a Fae being dies in the mortal world? Are the younger brothers Gruff totally dead? Did they re-spawn in Summer after their defeat?
- Why does Mother Winter need a walking stick? Why does she seem beset by the ravages of old age at all? She has the power of an archangel, so surely she can cure herself? Why does she feel physical pain from exertion as MS says in CD after Harry summons her?
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Just some thoughts:
Since water is anathema to magic, what happens if Demonreach is hit by a tsunami? It is an island after all....
... in a lake??? ? I can't imagine a tsunami would be geographically possible there. Not even if it came from the ocean. The wave hits near the beach and rolls inland after that. Aren't there mountains in between? The lake itself is big but not big enough that a wave could become that high. Except maybe if someone used a lot of water magic....
OK, let's say there is a huge wave. I would think the island can protect itself. Also the important parts seem to be high up or deep down below the surface.
Why does Mother Winter need a walking stick? Why does she seem beset by the ravages of old age at all? She has the power of an archangel, so surely she can cure herself? Why does she feel physical pain from exertion as MS says in CD after Harry summons her?
She is weak because it was summer or not yet winter at that time, wasn't it?
I think the old age symptoms come from the mothers' mantles. Somehow this seems to be the prize for that much power. A balance thing. Everything in Fairie seems to be about balance.
Or maybe Mother Summer is keeping her this way as long as the table is in Summer's hands and she has more power. To keep Winter in check. So that she would not overpower all the mighty ones in the world and take over.
Just like why there are counterparts to the Winter Queen and Lady.
Maybe that's why they live together.
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As good as Changes is as a narrative, in it, Harry can best be described as a d**k. He's selfish, childish, and generally speaking, unhinged. Ghost Story seems to want to explain that behavior. The answer it appears, is the devil made me do it. That's the Cliff's Notes version.
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Idea about Sanya:
Maybe to show, that to be a Knight of the Cross you don't have to be the perfect hero type like Michael. You can be clumsy. And you can even be agnostic ;D
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... in a lake??? ? I can't imagine asun tami would be geographically possible there. Not even if it came from the ocean. The wave hits near the beach and rolls inland after that. Aren't there mountains in between? The lake itself is big but not big enough that a wave could become that high. Except maybe if someone used a lot of water magic....
OK, let's say there is a huge wave. I would think the island can protect itself. Also the important parts seem to be high up or deep down below the surface.
I think one would be possible, tsunamis are caused by earth quakes under water. They can also happen in lakes if there is a big enough rock or land slide into one side of it, saw a clip of that on either the Science Channel or the History Channel, rock slide into a large lake caused a fifty foot wave.
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I think one would be possible, tsunamis are caused by earth quakes under water. They can also happen in lakes if there is a big enough rock or land slide into one side of it, saw a clip of that on either the Science Channel or the History Channel, rock slide into a large lake caused a fifty foot wave.
How big must the mass be, do you know? I was thinking more of an volcano underground. In the immediate area of the explosion the waves should be not that big - in case of a landmass at least as big as the mass plus acceleration (I hope I use the right words) - but they are building momentum the further away from the blast they get and the higher the ground of the see gets.
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Just some thoughts:
... in a lake??? ? I can't imagine a tsunami would be geographically possible there. Not even if it came from the ocean. The wave hits near the beach and rolls inland after that. Aren't there mountains in between? The lake itself is big but not big enough that a wave could become that high. Except maybe if someone used a lot of water magic....
OK, let's say there is a huge wave. I would think the island can protect itself. Also the important parts seem to be high up or deep down below the surface.
Well given that we are dealing with a series about magic, I’d imagine there are myriad ways a powerful being could use this to their advantage.
But if I were an evil, unimaginably powerful being & I wanted to attack Demonreach, I would take a page out of @Mira’s book & use a combination of earthquake & tsunami as my opening salvo. Perhaps something like this will set off the BAT?
She is weak because it was summer or not yet winter at that time, wasn't it?
I think the old age symptoms come from the mothers' mantles. Somehow this seems to be the prize for that much power. A balance thing. Everything in Fairie seems to be about balance.
Or maybe Mother Summer is keeping her this way as long as the table is in Summer's hands and she has more power. To keep Winter in check. So that she would not overpower all the mighty ones in the world and take over.
Just like why there are counterparts to the Winter Queen and Lady.
Maybe that's why they live together.
CD occurs around Halloween which is when Winter is more powerful. In CD Mother Summer explicitly says “she rarely leaves our cottage anymore, she lost her walking stick you see....it’s painful for her to travel, even briefly”.
The question is, why? As Bob says, the Queens are true immortals.
Idea about Sanya:
Maybe to show, that to be a Knight of the Cross you don't have to be the perfect hero type like Michael. You can be clumsy. And you can even be agnostic ;D
Possible, although then I expect Butters to be even clumsier over the next few books. It seems weird though that JB goes out of his way to talk about Harry’s leg being cut in SmF only to go nowhere with it.
As good as Changes is as a narrative, in it, Harry can best be described as a d**k. He's selfish, childish, and generally speaking, unhinged. Ghost Story seems to want to explain that behavior. The answer it appears, is the devil made me do it. That's the Cliff's Notes version.
True but again, this could be covered more easily in a short story than a full case file. I mean having ghost Corpsetaker & Evil Bob as the bad guys... especially after Changes seemed like a let down.
I get that JB wanted to introduce us to new-ish concepts like ghosts/ lemours/ shades etc., but I wonder why he recycled a couple of side- bad guys from the previous books & made them the big bad of this novel. I mean what happened to Grevane’s ghost?
This could have been an interesting book to revisit the ‘ghosts’ of Harry’s past & all the people who’ve died in Chicago - like Sells, Kim Delaney, Shiro etc. By the amount of time that was spent developing Fitz as a character, I’m sure we’ll see more of him in the later books although I found him to be uninteresting.
I dunno, it was kind of a lackluster book, but that’s probably because the books leading up to & after it (TC, Changes, CD, SG) are some of the best in the series.
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I don't think the area is near a plate boundary so no volcanoes . The area is rather well scrubbed by glaciers so not a lot of high ground on the lake to provide debris for a landslide. Near Toledo(and I assume near lake Michigan the ground is flat. Being from Kentucky I found that disturbing. And a quick glimpse on Google Earth makes me believe that Demonreach island is an outlier in having a rocky hill like character. However it evidently has a Formor redoubt, so who knows?
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How big must the mass be, do you know? I was thinking more of an volcano underground. In the immediate area of the explosion the waves should be not that big - in case of a landmass at least as big as the mass plus acceleration (I hope I use the right words) - but they are building momentum the further away from the blast they get and the higher the ground of the see gets.
I think it depends on the topography under the lake, then how big the quake which displaces the the water. In the film I saw it was a huge chunk of cliff that fell in, the sheer mass of it caused a big wave that took out everything on the other side of the lake. Remember water is heavy and it doesn't have to be very deep or fast to do a lot of damage.
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Since water is anathema to magic, what happens if Demonreach is hit by a tsunami? It is an island after all....[/li][/list]
I suppose a meteor strike or an underwater nuclear detonation in Lake Michigan are potential mechanisms. Within the story, I can think of a couple powers off the top of my head that could arrange one or both.
Merlin seems to have planned for the island to be subject to thousands of years of normal rainfall without the prison losing integrity, though. Possibly the surface defenses are set up to draw power off the dark ley line created from the prisoners' "body heat", or something about how the enchantment was created across time.
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@Snark Knight
Those were my thoughts as well. Regarding the rainfall - the prison is ~1750 steps below iirc - so I doubt any rainfall makes down to the prison itself.
An earthquake followed by a tsunami however would be quite devastating I’d imagine.
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1. While I agree Ghost Story was a bit of a let down and definitely felt like it could have been a short story, it did introduce the Ghost plane of the Nevernever. Which I imagine is important for the world building, long term. As you say, it did also give us those character development moments such as the degradation of Molly, the suffering of Murphy, the building of Butters to knight, the impact of Mort etc. A lot of it was showing the void that Harry left behind. It also introduces our new mysterious evil faction, the Fomor. Finally, it was all about Harry learning that actions have consequences (which I suspect ties into the heart of the mechanics of Free Will - you will notice that Uriel finally gets serious stage time and Angels start showing up. This is a pretty big hint to how important things are in this book). There is a fair amount of foreshadowing, and also some discussion on how magic works in a fundamental way. We also get some insight into what really happened with HWWBh, and what Justin was like. My take is that this book will definitely will become much more relevant as the series goes into it's final stage.
2. I could be uncharitable here and criticise Jim about Sanya. But I will give him the benefit of the doubt and argue that it could just come down to the writing. The character archetype of Michael (as Jim often describes) is a pillar of good - the typical paladin. So he is as close to a perfect paladin (without going OP) as Jim could write. He is noble, virtuous, wise and brave and all the other things. It is also that he is older than Sanya. Michael's teacher and mentor, Shiro, was even better (comparable to Mozart) in terms of his abilities and seemingly even more virtuous than Michael. He fills the classic Yoda/Master Splinter/Gandalf role. Michael as the second oldest is more like Qui-Gon Jin/Obi-Wan (Ep 3)/Aragorn role. Sanya then is still quite new (hence he uses things like AKs) and fits the Obi-Wan (Ep 2)/Boromir type role. Butters being both the youngest AND newest is then of course is Obi-Wan (Ep 1)/Early Spider-Man/Luke (New Hope). A bit heavy handed on the analogies, but you get the idea. I think they just fit the molds Jim has made. Plus of course for plot reasons - sometimes you need something done and you only have certain tools to hand.
3. I think what Sarissa owes Mab is complex - and boils down to a mix of protection and healing. Remember she had a terrible brain illness that Mab saved her from. I wonder even though she is Mab's daughter, if Mab could even heal her daughter without extracting a payment. I suspect not.
4. As some have already pointed out, Demonreach is in the middle of a lake and quite protected from such events. But even if somehow a tsunami did occur, as has been already stated, the Well is actually deep below the island. Perhaps below the bottom of the lake too - if Harry's description in CD is anything to go by. And I am sure the Merlin put some protection in for just that sort of frontal assault. An interesting note though is that Jim has been rather inconsistent on the Water issue with magic. I suspect when Jim first built it in, like happens to us all, he didn't fully consider the implications. So he has to go back and correct, and because he is clever and experienced he often does a very good job. There have been plenty of scenes where it has been raining that haven't affected magic in that scene. Just look at Skin Game when Uriel shows up. Perhaps Dresden's knowledge is incomplete, perhaps the degree to which this affects magic is undefined. Mostly it is used for plot reasons anyway - the water issue.
5. A most interesting question! Not that the others weren't, but this is trickier. Harry states that there is roughly 1 wizard talent per million humans. So roughly 7700 Wizard-level human talents out there, give or take. But as we know, the 200 Wardens (during and previous to Dead Beat) were about 20% of the White Council. Which obviously puts the Council at around 1000 Wizard. We also know that the Council cannot keep up with the amount of new Wizards popping up as the population has exploded. This also does not seem to include Paranet-level practitioners, but may include Warlocks and Sorcerers (in the 7700 number). Now perhaps Jim forgot he wrote that (he has admitted to that in the past - hence why he checks the wiki and has his beta readers) but I think not. It is also not clear if by the 1000 or so Wizards of the White Council includes apprentices. Which again, I believe it does not. It seems somewhat implied that a lot of apprentices got elevated to full-wizard after the events of Grave Peril in order to replenish the ranks (Ramirez and the younger wardens come to mind). But yeah, I would say that there are not many in the actual Council. Which actually seems really odd - considering the size of the threats out there. A lot of the way Harry used to talk about it made it sound like there was in fact several thousand of them. Harry is massively out of the loop as the series stands, so Peace Talks will hopefully help answer that question (and all the many other overdue ones about the what exactly the White Council has been up to).
6. I can't quite remember exactly, but I believe there is a WOJ on Fae's dying in the mortal world. Essentially it stated because Fae are of two worlds, they don't turn to ectoplasm. However unless they had a mantle, they do not come back. The title of Eldest is normally passed on (like a mantle, yet not a mantle). Fae are seemingly grown from seed stock peoples, so I don't think the younger Gruff brothers will return. Which I imagine Titania isn't super pleased about. In fact, I am surprised how calm Eldest Gruff is. Although I think there are more small and medium Gruffs, than just what we saw.
7. Ah yes. Mother Winter. Why indeed would such a being need a walking stick? Or indeed a body? She is more equivalent to a star or blizzard on a thousand worlds. My guess? The "walking stick" is like the mantles, a part of her. Perhaps the physical representation of her ability to interact. Mother Summer always seems more mobile, and has no walking stick to speak of. When it comes to the Nevernever, and especially the Powers, I believe that we are entering the realms of metaphor as much a physical reality. Abstract concepts such as thoughts and time can have physical representations (which is really what the Mothers are, after all). Remember the Outer Gates - Harry's mind can only process so much so he boils them down into something as obvious and simplistic as those massive gates. He cannot experience reality in more than 3 or 4 dimensions. Same with when he was in Ghost Story, he can only experience a very limited view of reality. The Nevernever is very similar to the Immaterium of Warhammer 40K, where thoughts become reality. Jim used to play both types of Warhammer I believe, so I am not totally surprised.
So to get back to your question - why does she feel pain, or appear old etc? Because that is the best representation of WHAT she is, and how Mortal minds have shaped her. Consider the fact that Harry hurt her at all, and how both angry and insulted she was. Consider Uriel's reaction when Harry dropped the -el from his name. Mortal Free Will seems to have unlimited power in some deep ways...and Immortals hate it. Mortals can constantly redefine their reality, and of course themselves (to speak of one is to speak of the other really). Immortals have only the illusion of this. I suspect this is the crux of Lucifer's argument with God: Mortal's have unlimited power in a sense, and can change all of reality. Any mortal. All of them together...leads to a massive problem. Immortals were only given limited will (enough to act somewhat on their own - Jim has said Angel's at least had enough will to Fall) but cannot really change their own destinies. Why? No idea. Jim may have an answer for his series - but people have been trying to answer question like that forever. So this is why she feels pain from moving - she has perhaps lost the part of her power that allows her to interact more freely. Anyone would be upset by that - imagine if you lost your legs and then some fool tries to drag you out to him!
Sorry about the ridiculously long post, but you ask big questions!
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Sarissa has a congenital disease that would kill her, taking care of Harry is part of Mab's price for keeping her alive.
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Sarissa has a congenital disease that would kill her, taking care of Harry is part of Mab's price for keeping her alive.
Evidence? I don't remember her saying that.. If she does have a congenital disease, from whom did she inherit it? Her mother, Mab's side or her unknown father? Also did Maeve suffer the same?
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Location 1347 in the Kindle version. This is the just after the party at Arctis Tor.
"I...have a form of congenital demtia," she said."I watched what it did to my older sister and..." She shuddered. "Doctors can't help me. Mab can."
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Location 1347 in the Kindle version. This is the just after the party at Arctis Tor.
Thanks, I don't remember that.. Found it, interesting she seems to blame the dementia on Maeve's madness. One wonders why Mab could help Sarissa but not Maeve.. Also which side of the family did it come from?
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@morriswalters & Yuillegan
I took Sarissa’s comment to be describing her half-Fae nature since she is a Changeling. Also remember that since prior becoming the Summer Lady she remained a Changeling, she can still lie.
We know that Maeve wasn’t mentally insane per se, she was Nfected. She was also a spoiled girl who wanted power but chafed under the responsibilities that came with that power - working with Nemesis was her way of being utterly selfish/ deluded. She wasn’t really megalomaniacal, just a supernatural mean girl.
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From a narrative/ furthering the series standpoint, what is the purpose of Ghost Story? While it gave us a much more detailed perspective on tertiary characters (like Mort) & a good overview of the ghost/spirit world, what was the point of the novel? It seems like the central plot could’ve been boiled down to a longer short story
When I first read the series, I accidentally skipped Ghost Story. I didn't notice until about a third of the way into Cold Days that I had even missed anything. To answer the question, Harry has to confront what he did in Changes, it has to happen in a novel, and be the main focus of that novel. Short stories are generally viewed as supplemental material that the average reader isn't expected to read, or at least that's my impression.
But as we know, the 200 Wardens (during and previous to Dead Beat) were about 20% of the White Council.
How do we know that again?
I think Maeve was always crazy. Molly said she had a backlog that goes farther back than Maeve's infection.
Fairies die. They sort of melt because they are mortal and not mortal, so they are partially made of ectoplasm. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Don't recall where.
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How do we know that again?
Basic math and inference...although I have a nagging feeling there is WOJ backing it up. In DB in the initial assault in Sicily, the White Council lost 38 Wardens. Harry says directly there are only about 200 Wardens on the Council. But he says basically 20% of the White Council is wiped out in a day. He also constantly and consistently mentions that precious few Wizards are capable of combat magic, and most are Wardens. I believe Backup also puts it at Between 1000 and 2000. I think we can guess even if there are roughly 7000 Wizards capable of being on the White Council, only a small amount would actually be on the Council due to a variety of factors such as lack of resources in finding these potential candidates, the increase in warlocks, the distrust of the council, and predatory actions by sinister actors such as the Fomor.
I think Maeve was always crazy.
Yes - but in a manageable way. Remember when we first meet her in Summer Knight? Crazy, but not self-destructive. Only later does she become infected by Nemesis...from either Leah or Aurora. That's when she really goes off the rails and starts being able to lie and wanting to throw off the balance, like Aurora.
Fairies die. They sort of melt because they are mortal and not mortal, so they are partially made of ectoplasm. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Don't recall where.
WOJ 2014 AMA
Matter from the Nevernever dissolves into ectoplasm in the real world, but the faeries leave a corpse when they die. Explanation?
"Faeries are a unique case in the Nevernever, as the beings who basically straddle the worlds. Plus there are other reasons which are none of your beeswax just yet ;)"
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Maeve doesn't appear to have the symptoms of dementia, and if she had, she would have been dead long since, since that is the inevitable outcome of dementia. Not compatible with immortality. The disease doesn't turn you into a psychotic, murdering nympho. It steals your humanity and then kills you. I suggest that Jim chose this as a shorthand because he wanted the sisters to be alive concurrently. Which means that Mab made Sarissa immortal. It could also mean that Sarissa and Maeve were once part of triplets and that one died.
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Maeve doesn't appear to have the symptoms of dementia, and if she had, she would have been dead long since, since that is the inevitable outcome of dementia. Not compatible with immortality. The disease doesn't turn you into a psychotic, murdering nympho. It steals your humanity and then kills you. I suggest that Jim chose this as a shorthand because he wanted the sisters to be alive concurrently. Which means that Mab made Sarissa immortal. It could also mean that Sarissa and Maeve were once part of triplets and that one died.
No, it doesn't but it can make the victim paranoid and make them react violently to care givers and loved ones simply out of fear because they no longer know who they are.. Perhaps it is different in the Fae? If this is so, then Maeve's condition would fit the disease..
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I don't know Yuillegan, not doing your job when Mab is your boss sure does seem self destructive to me.
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It's worth mentioning here that "Dementia" isn't any particular disease, it's a descriptive suite of symptoms, with several known diseases &c that can cause it.
https://www.alz.org/alzheimers-dementia/what-is-dementia/types-of-dementia
I note that "a form of congenital dementia" (Sarissa's phrase) could -- without much regular-ol' faerie fact-stretching, let alone half-blooded free will & freedom-to-lie -- likely be stretched to cover Nemfection itself.
Maybe Sarissa was saying she was Nemfected, and Mab is holding it in check.
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My WAG about the deal between Mab & Sarissa is that in exchange for being a vessel for a Fae mantle (as an alternate to Maeve or the WK, should Mab need to rid herself of an Nfected traitor within her Court & need a ready ‘vessel’ handy), Sarissa has to spend 3 months a year at Arctis Tor.
Being a Changeling who has not yet chosen to be human or Fae, I’d imagine Sarissa would be fairly long-lived. Seeing as she chooses to spend most of her time on the mortal plane, she clearly doesn’t care too much for her Fae nature - we sorta see this with Meryl in SK. Being Fae or a Changeling would be congenital & given the darker impulses of the Winter Fae, I could see someone like Sarissa calling it dementia - it is abnormal from a civilized human PoV.
@g33k
I highly doubt Sarissa is Nfected, given that Mab was grooming her to become Winter Lady as a replacement to the Nfected Maeve... & Nfection wouldn’t be congenital, would it?
I do agree however that Sarissa purposely used extremely vague phrasing about her “disability”.
@Bad Alias
Maeve shirking her duties for ~150 years was probably because Mab kept allowing her to get away with it. Maeve didn’t realize that this was a sign of her love, instead likely viewing it as indifference or weakness on Mab’s part.
Mab should have realized that Maeve lacked the temperament to be a good Winter Lady in the long-term. Like Lily, Maeve probably didn’t understand the full extent of what she was getting into. I mean she couldn’t even have a boyfriend till Mab dies/ abdicates (given that Mab can have sex, but this seems unlikely in the near future) - that & dealing with creatures (of your own Court!) constantly trying to outsmart/ take advantage of you for centuries on end would drive anyone crazy.
@morriswalters
I think the issue is that you can’t retain much humanity & be a Winter royal. Mab does (loves Maeve), & it very nearly kills her/ destroys Winter; likewise Titania is in mourning & it has caused Summer to act erratically since SK. The Ladies are even more human since they are younger - it is the manipulation of the desires of their human nature that kills Aurora, Maeve & Lily in the end.
@Yuillegan
I wonder what happens to the non-Fae denizens of the NeverNever when they are killed in the mortal world - demonic entities etc for example.
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@g33k
I highly doubt Sarissa is Nfected, given that Mab was grooming her to become Winter Lady as a replacement to the Nfected Maeve... & Nfection wouldn’t be congenital, would it?
Remember that Mab cured Lea (for some value of "cure"), so she wouldn't necessarily find Nemfection to preclude grooming that person as a replacement...
And if the instance of Nemfection was crafted as "likes Mab's bloodline & likes Winter powers" then I could see how Sarissa might regard her condition as "congenital..."
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Not everything is a nemfection. There is an example of that kind of deal in the books already. Harry's broken back. It's exactly the way that Mab might control an asset. Like Harry. Or Sarissa. And Maeve called Sarissa a spare.
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7. Ah yes. Mother Winter. Why indeed would such a being need a walking stick? Or indeed a body? She is more equivalent to a star or blizzard on a thousand worlds. My guess? The "walking stick" is like the mantles, a part of her. Perhaps the physical representation of her ability to interact. Mother Summer always seems more mobile, and has no walking stick to speak of. When it comes to the Nevernever, and especially the Powers, I believe that we are entering the realms of metaphor as much a physical reality. Abstract concepts such as thoughts and time can have physical representations (which is really what the Mothers are, after all). Remember the Outer Gates - Harry's mind can only process so much so he boils them down into something as obvious and simplistic as those massive gates. He cannot experience reality in more than 3 or 4 dimensions. Same with when he was in Ghost Story, he can only experience a very limited view of reality. The Nevernever is very similar to the Immaterium of Warhammer 40K, where thoughts become reality. Jim used to play both types of Warhammer I believe, so I am not totally surprised.
So to get back to your question - why does she feel pain, or appear old etc? Because that is the best representation of WHAT she is, and how Mortal minds have shaped her. Consider the fact that Harry hurt her at all, and how both angry and insulted she was. Consider Uriel's reaction when Harry dropped the -el from his name. Mortal Free Will seems to have unlimited power in some deep ways...and Immortals hate it. Mortals can constantly redefine their reality, and of course themselves (to speak of one is to speak of the other really). Immortals have only the illusion of this. I suspect this is the crux of Lucifer's argument with God: Mortal's have unlimited power in a sense, and can change all of reality. Any mortal. All of them together...leads to a massive problem. Immortals were only given limited will (enough to act somewhat on their own - Jim has said Angel's at least had enough will to Fall) but cannot really change their own destinies. Why? No idea. Jim may have an answer for his series - but people have been trying to answer question like that forever. So this is why she feels pain from moving - she has perhaps lost the part of her power that allows her to interact more freely. Anyone would be upset by that - imagine if you lost your legs and then some fool tries to drag you out to him!
Sorry about the ridiculously long post, but you ask big questions!
This is an interesting notion - that the walking stick is an essential part of MW’s ability to interact with the mortal world. But if this were the case, why would she let the White Council have it for nearly a millennium? I can see her loaning it out to the WC for short periods like the Ramp war etc., but for ~1000 years when it severely impacts her mobility seems strange.
One other way of looking at this could be that Bob is wrong - the Fae Queens are not true immortals - their mantles are, but the holders of the mantles are not (which is why Lily, Aurora, Maeve, Mab’s predecessor, Mother Summer’s predecessor etc. have died). The very setup of the Fae courts mirrors human ages - the maiden, the mother & the crone - this implies change. The maiden becomes the mother & eventually the crone - this is a one-way linear progression, no matter how slow. Since the Fae Courts are set up as such, we can infer that these positions are not meant to be permanent but rather a series of ‘promotions’ should the holder be able to survive for long enough.
Other immortals like angels have no such progression built into their natures - their natures are to be static with little freedom of choice. Fae on the other hand are capable of relatively more ‘free will’. So perhaps the Fae Queens are extremely long lived but not actually immortal in the sense of angels etc. By this logic, Mother Winter is actually ancient & feels the ravages of time from her millennia long existence (kinda like how the Red King seemed to be devolving into a bloodthirsty dementia).
@g33k
I believe the definition of congenital is “present from birth”. Unless you are implying that Mab has been Nfected for a couple of hundred years now, that Nfection is capable of being passed on in this manner & that Maeve too has been Nfected since birth....
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I don't actually think Sarissa is (or was) Nemfected; just that she could be. There could be a sort of Nemfection that targets specific opportunities, that "fits" with certain hosts. If the specific suite of vulnerabilies matches Sarissa, she might call that "congenital".
I don't really think that's the issue... but her evasive manner makes me pretty sure it isn't anything we'd normally describe as "a congenital form of dementia," so I'm looking for other faerie-twisty things those words might describe...
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Not everything is a nemfection. There is an example of that kind of deal in the books already. Harry's broken back. It's exactly the way that Mab might control an asset. Like Harry. Or Sarissa. And Maeve called Sarissa a spare.
I find your arguments quite persuasive. I did so before you made them, too! ;) I think "Nemfection" is a highly implausible & unsatisfactory answer.
I just... don't find much that IS plausible & satisfactory to explain Sarissa's choice of words.
I'm grasping at straws.
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G33k: I think we can just accept that Sarissa owes Mab for protection and keeping her brain (relatively) sane and working. She went to Mab herself remember - that is pretty rare right there. Sarissa clearly learnt who her mother was, and what she was (to a point). She asked for the help, and accepted the deal. Whether it was a fair deal is qualitative, not quantitative.
Kbrizzle: Why would Mother Winter let the White Council have it for a millennium? No idea. But who says she gets a choice? Maybe that was the deal? Or perhaps 1000 years to her isn't that long - compared to the many millennia she has been alive. We know she wants it back now - perhaps the deal is up and Eb hasn't returned it. Would be just Harry's luck to get the Blackstaff only to have to give it back.
Your notion that the Fae Mantles are the immortal pieces is essentially correct - that was the revelation of Cold Days. Whether the mantle itself can be destroyed truly is another question. Remember, it was implied Maeve could be "killed" outside of Halloween but would reform eventually. Only during a conjunction does the stasis of immortality become malleable. Only then could Maeve be killed, and the Mantle transferred.
But I do find the idea that the Mantles are essentially a structure of immortality that creates more choice for the immortal, essentially letting them have the best of both world, really intriguing. It makes a lot of sense actually, when the agents who are implied to have created/elevated the Fae into what they are currently were the Old Gods (such as the Greco-Roman and Norse etc). They might have resented the lack of Free Will their Power and Immortality gave them, and found a clever work-around.
And yes, that may also explain Mother Winter's poor health and ailments. Although at her power level surely she would be insulated from Mortal discomforts...perhaps that is the price of it. I can't wait to find out!
As for non-Fae beings, such as demons. Well we know that if they are pure spirit energy and form a physical body (like a ghost, or the toad demon) they dissolve in ectoplasm on death which eventually breaks down further. Normally the "respawn" in the Nevernever, but occasionally are killed outright (such as by the Swords of the Cross). If they are combo beings, like the Naagloshii or the River Folk, I suspect not. Although the River Folk are essentially somewhere between humanity and Fae. Angels and Fallen (not Denarians)? Probably too much spirit...and not sure they can die at all. Even from the Swords. But we will have to wait and see on that front. Bob gives the impression nothing really changes between immortals unless a conjunction happens (such as Chicago above Chicago in Summer Knight...although Jim has retconned a few things since then). As for monsters, demons, other Things...probably a case by case basis. Chimera and Cyclops? Probably ectoplasm. Sue with resurrected Flesh? Ectoplasm. Although if you summoned Sue from 65 million years ago with a Time Travel way/wormhole...probably full on corpse, same as us. Fomor should be interesting - we know they are related to the Fae and the Jotuns, and we know the Turtlenecks transhuman body parts turn to ectoplasm but their bodies stay as corpses, so it will probably be a case by case thing too.
I am curious to know what would happen if Spider-Man or a Jedi died in Dresdenverse, they are a part of the greater cosmology in a way yet are mortal. We will probably never get an in-text answer for copyright reasons, but it is fun to guess.
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I find your arguments quite persuasive. I did so before you made them, too! ;) I think "Nemfection" is a highly implausible & unsatisfactory answer.
I just... don't find much that IS plausible & satisfactory to explain Sarissa's choice of words.
I'm grasping at straws.
What exactly do you find implausible?
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It's worth mentioning here that "Dementia" isn't any particular disease, it's a descriptive suite of symptoms, with several known diseases &c that can cause it.
https://www.alz.org/alzheimers-dementia/what-is-dementia/types-of-dementia
I note that "a form of congenital dementia" (Sarissa's phrase) could -- without much regular-ol' faerie fact-stretching, let alone half-blooded free will & freedom-to-lie -- likely be stretched to cover Nemfection itself.
Maybe Sarissa was saying she was Nemfected, and Mab is holding it in check.
True, it describes a set of symptoms.. I doubt that Sarissa is infected. What I find odd is on one hand Sarissa implies that of her two daughters, she is the favorite. As in her and Mab did mother/daughter activities together which caused jealousy in Maeve... Now that could be only because it isn't appropriate activities for a Queen/Lady relationship.. Back to the original point, Sarissa may feel gratitude to her mother, but not resentment one would expect if Mab were holding the treatment over her to control her.
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For Ghost Story, I view it like this:
Changes was all about blowing up Harry's life. He loses pretty much everything, and gains a daughter (the family he's been craving his entire life), but in a way sacrifices his relationship with her by giving her away. No job, no home, no lab, no magic equipment, no money to speak of, etc. Then it ends with him losing his life, too; that line about roasting marshmallows if the world burns was pretty much what he did to his own world during Changes. So we saw what Changes did to Harry.
Ghost Story, on the other hand, was all about what Changes did to everyone else. The choices that Harry had made from Storm Front all the way through Changes have come to a head. Murphy's jobless and barely holding together; the Alphas are bruisers for what amounts to a well-intentioned gang; the White Court, Marcone, and Harry's allies are doing what they can to hold onto Chicago; Molly has gone nutty and is trying to fill Harry's shoes the best she can; Bob and Butters have teamed up to help the Chicago Alliance; and Things Have Started to Fall Apart.
Molly in particular is important; this is where her relationship with Winter really begins. Lea is grooming her for Some Purpose.
But, basically, Changes was about what's important to Harry. Ghost Story is about how important Harry is to everyone else. It's a Wonderful Life is as good a metaphor as I can think of, except instead of "this is what would happen if you were never born," it's "here's what's happening since you died."
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Kbrizzle: Why would Mother Winter let the White Council have it for a millennium? No idea. But who says she gets a choice? Maybe that was the deal? Or perhaps 1000 years to her isn't that long - compared to the many millennia she has been alive. We know she wants it back now - perhaps the deal is up and Eb hasn't returned it. Would be just Harry's luck to get the Blackstaff only to have to give it back.
Your notion that the Fae Mantles are the immortal pieces is essentially correct - that was the revelation of Cold Days. Whether the mantle itself can be destroyed truly is another question. Remember, it was implied Maeve could be "killed" outside of Halloween but would reform eventually. Only during a conjunction does the stasis of immortality become malleable. Only then could Maeve be killed, and the Mantle transferred.
But I do find the idea that the Mantles are essentially a structure of immortality that creates more choice for the immortal, essentially letting them have the best of both world, really intriguing. It makes a lot of sense actually, when the agents who are implied to have created/elevated the Fae into what they are currently were the Old Gods (such as the Greco-Roman and Norse etc). They might have resented the lack of Free Will their Power and Immortality gave them, and found a clever work-around.
And yes, that may also explain Mother Winter's poor health and ailments. Although at her power level surely she would be insulated from Mortal discomforts...perhaps that is the price of it. I can't wait to find out!
As for non-Fae beings, such as demons. Well we know that if they are pure spirit energy and form a physical body (like a ghost, or the toad demon) they dissolve in ectoplasm on death which eventually breaks down further. Normally the "respawn" in the Nevernever, but occasionally are killed outright (such as by the Swords of the Cross). If they are combo beings, like the Naagloshii or the River Folk, I suspect not. Although the River Folk are essentially somewhere between humanity and Fae. Angels and Fallen (not Denarians)? Probably too much spirit...and not sure they can die at all. Even from the Swords. But we will have to wait and see on that front. Bob gives the impression nothing really changes between immortals unless a conjunction happens (such as Chicago above Chicago in Summer Knight...although Jim has retconned a few things since then). As for monsters, demons, other Things...probably a case by case basis. Chimera and Cyclops? Probably ectoplasm. Sue with resurrected Flesh? Ectoplasm. Although if you summoned Sue from 65 million years ago with a Time Travel way/wormhole...probably full on corpse, same as us. Fomor should be interesting - we know they are related to the Fae and the Jotuns, and we know the Turtlenecks transhuman body parts turn to ectoplasm but their bodies stay as corpses, so it will probably be a case by case thing too.
I am curious to know what would happen if Spider-Man or a Jedi died in Dresdenverse, they are a part of the greater cosmology in a way yet are mortal. We will probably never get an in-text answer for copyright reasons, but it is fun to guess.
I do believe that mantles were created for this purpose - a mortal-ish creature is needed to channel the power of the mantle, since only mortals have free will necessary to accomplish this. In a way, it seems to be quite similar to holding a Denarius, although I’d imagine most mantles of note come with quite a few more limitations than a Coin. I wonder if this is why most of the Lady-level Fae royalty we’ve seen so far have been Changelings.
I guess my more central question about the Fae Courts is, if the holders of the royal mantles are immortal, why is there is a geriatric linear progression at all? Are the Ladies supposed to remain the way they are forever, or is their position also supposed to be an excellent training ground for the next Queen? Maiden -> Mother -> Crone would imply this. Especially since there also seems to be a commensurate decrease in humanity for the beaters of the mantles.
@Mira
This is why I’m curious about the terms of the bargain between Sarissa & Mab. While Sarissa does seem to like the mother-daughter/ humanity Sherpa things she does with Mab, she also wonders if Mab ordered Harry to kill her - showing that she does not much trust Mab.
Perhaps Mab is doing this with Sarissa to avoid what went wrong with Maeve? Maeve seemed to think that Mab didn’t love her.
@Kindler
That’s an interesting way of looking at it. I still wonder how necessary/ important it is to have that message in a whole case file. The couple of short stories set after Changes (like Aftermath) do a pretty good job of showing the effects of Harry’s death on his friends.
Most of the case files have Nemesis or the Black Council subtly in them, I can’t really spot it in this one. What I mean is that all the case files after GP show a very real threat to an existing supernatural power structure. DM has a change to the ranks of the KotC, BR is about an existential threat to the WCV etc. from 2 different angles, SmF is about corrupting the Archive etc. GS doesn’t really have this.
I guess one could argue that had Capiocorpus’ actions been allowed to go unchecked, he would’ve become ‘mortal’ again & allied with the Fomor, making Chicago firmly Fomor territory. All of Harry’s friends would’ve likely died, & I think Marcone & Lara would’ve been run out of town.
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As far as "Ghost Story" is concerned; first I want to say I don't like this novel very much, so what I'm about to say is an explanation, but not a defense of the novel. Also, I'm not trying to be cheeky or making a joke here. I am quite serious.
Whether Jim consciously thought about the parallel he was creating when he wrote Ghost Story is irrelevant, but in essence what Jim wrote was "It's a Wonderful Life - Harry Dresden." Think about it. If it's been a long time since you've seen the (overrated IMO) Christmas classic, or for some reason have never seen it, after Jimmy Stewart wishes he had never lived, an angel shows him what would have happened if that had been the case. Spoiler Alert, everything and everyone J-J-Jimmy cared about went to sh*t without him. That is (almost) exactly what happens in Ghost Story, except Harry made his wish with a bullet. (Also, Harry's attempted suicide wasn't going to change the past.) However, after Harry disappears into the depths of Lake Michigan, Murphy becomes a vigilante murderer, Molly is on the point of a nervous breakdown, Thomas was a total wreck and the magical community of Chicago was under siege by the Fomor. Harry's friends were barely hanging on and they had make deals with monsters and criminals in order to survive.
Ghost Story is not about Harry's journey in the novel. Almost everything that happened, Harry saving Mort from Corpsetaker and Evil Bob, Harry helping the teenage gang get away from the second rate sorcerer Aristedes, or even what Harry learned/remembered about Justin DuMorne and HWWB (Though I liked that part of the book and Harry's conversation with Lea in general.) is largely irrelevant to the major point of the story. Ghost Story is about Harry learning what he means to his friends and the world at large. Now Jim didn't hit his readers over the head with that message the way the movie did. Plus, Harry wakes up having failed to escape from Mab, so it's a much darker ending than the movie; as if Jimmy Stewart found out he still had to spend a couple of years in jail, but that doesn't change the larger meaning of the novel.
Come December, go watch "It's a Wonderful Life" and then read or listen to the audio version of "Ghost Story." You'll see exactly how right I am about this.
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If it's been a long time since you've seen the (overrated IMO) Christmas classic.
How dare you! ;)
I leave you with this King of Queens quote about the movie:
Carrie Heffernan:
[Arthur is watching 'It's A Wonderful Life'] Ah, 'It's A Wonderful Life'. Pretty great, huh?
Arthur Spooner:
Actually, I think it's a swing and a miss.
Carrie Heffernan:
What are you talking about? It's one of the greatest movies of all time.
Arthur Spooner:
With George Bailey, the town is boring. Without him, there's nightclubs and bars. It's fabulous. I wish he hadn't been born.
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What exactly do you find implausible?
I find it implausible that Sarissa's "condition" would be something that conventional medicine would recognize as "congenital dementia."
I find it implausible that a changeling daughter of Mab's only coincidentally happens to have a "condition" that lets Mab get what she wants.
I find it implausible that Sarissa is only working with Mab/Winter/mom on a transactional "I do task-X, get paid reward-X" manner.
I find it implausible that Sarissa's "condition" would be Nemfection.
I find it implausible that Sarissa would carelessly Leave A Clue like this in front of a professional investigator.
I could go on... ;-)
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I find it implausible that a wizard was living in a basement in Chicago, which to me is much more implausible then someone having a genetic defect like Huntington's. Look carefully at the terms of her deal. Sarissa made out like a bandit. Nine months vacation each year. And immortality and youth to boot, with none of the responsibility of being the Lady. Assuming her father was Franz Schubert, she's been alive long enough to become a billionaire by working at a fast food joint. And she's had two hundred years of youth to burn, which was 180 more than her contemporaries. ;D
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I find it implausible that Sarissa's "condition" would be something that conventional medicine would recognize as "congenital dementia."
I find it implausible that a changeling daughter of Mab's only coincidentally happens to have a "condition" that lets Mab get what she wants.
I find it implausible that Sarissa is only working with Mab/Winter/mom on a transactional "I do task-X, get paid reward-X" manner.
Have you considered the idea that Mab either faked or gave her the condition just to set things up? Convincing someone they are sick so you can help them seems like a very winter thing to do. Plus if by having her under control like this has allowed Mab to more easily keep her safe Mab would see faking the illness as doing the right thing. :)
I find it implausible that Sarissa's "condition" would be Nemfection.
I find it implausible that Sarissa would carelessly Leave A Clue like this in front of a professional investigator.
I could go on... ;-)
I agree with this I do not think it is Nemfection. If it was that Mab would just cure her. We know she can remove it given time and fighting the outsiders is part of her purpose so she would not take 1/2 measures in that case.
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These are some questions I’ve had about the series in general. While I have my own theories, I’m curious about what you all think.
- Why is Sanya shown as being a bit clumsy? There are a couple of explicit & random instances, like in SmF when he accidentally cuts Harry’s leg while trying to remove the kelpies on the boat to DR. From a Doylist perspective, why is this relevant? Especially since Michael is never shown as being remotely clumsy, or any other action-character really
- Since water is anathema to magic, what happens if Demonreach is hit by a tsunami? It is an island after all....
- Why does Mother Winter need a walking stick? Why does she seem beset by the ravages of old age at all? She has the power of an archangel, so surely she can cure herself? Why does she feel physical pain from exertion as MS says in CD after Harry summons her?
I think Sanya is made clumsy at times just to lighten things up. I do not think there is deep meaning.
Demonreach's magic is set up through time. I suspect for water to hurt the defenses would require something like many massive storms all hitting at exactly the correct interval in years apart.
I think being always old is part of the price of mother winters power. Meaning if she was somehow killed. Mab would get all her power but also instantly become old.
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I still don’t think Sarissa actually has an illness... I think that is the name she gives to her Winter nature which is she obviously tries very hard to suppress (hence congenital). Sarissa’s long life I think is more attributable to her not having chosen between human/ Fae, not a grant of Mab’s. If Sarissa chose human, she would have a mortal lifespan, but if she chose Fae, she would no longer be mortal.
What we know is that Sarissa & Mab have a deal where Sarissa has to spend 12 weeks a year at Arctis Tor & in general be Mab’s ‘humanity Sherpa’. We aren’t sure what Sarissa gets in return apart from allaying the symptoms of her ‘congenital familial dementia’.
The most likely possibility here is that as Mab’s daughter, Sarissa would likely have a lot of enemies/ people who want to take advantage. The Winter way of looking at this situation would be that it is simple to fix - Sarissa should just choose to become more powerful (pick Fae & become high Sidhe) - by not picking, Sarissa is at fault for leaving herself vulnerable.
I believe Mab’s deal was that she would allow Sarissa to remain a Changeling under her protection in return for spending 3 months a year at Arctis Tor etc. Mab obviously had more things in mind for Sarissa, but I believe this was the basis of their deal.
@segaily
That is an interesting notion about Mother Winter - that the geriatric pain is part of her mantle. I wonder though why Mother Summer is not similarly afflicted? We have WoJ that the current Mother Summer is not the original. Iirc the previous Mother Summer & Winter Queen died before or around 1066. This was the change that brought Mab & Titania to their current roles.
So perhaps Mother Summer is simply younger hence doesn’t feel the same ravages of time that MW does?
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@segaily
That is an interesting notion about Mother Winter - that the geriatric pain is part of her mantle. I wonder though why Mother Summer is not similarly afflicted? We have WoJ that the current Mother Summer is not the original. Iirc the previous Mother Summer & Winter Queen died before or around 1066. This was the change that brought Mab & Titania to their current roles.
So perhaps Mother Summer is simply younger hence doesn’t feel the same ravages of time that MW does?
I see it as mother winter's mantle makes her an old woman who lived a cold harsh hard life so it makes her body in pretty rough shape. Mother summer's mantle makes her an old woman who lived a pretty good easy life. That is after all part of their natures.
Though the difference between the two could also be related to the black staff. If Mother Winter for some reason put some of her power in her walking stick and then lost it the loss of power could be what causes the pain.
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Though the difference between the two could also be related to the black staff. If Mother Winter for some reason put some of her power in her walking stick and then lost it the loss of power could be what causes the pain.
That is the implication in Cold Days by Mother Summer. She directly says that "She [Mother Winter] lost her walking stick [potentially Blackstaff]. Whilst your summons was impertinent, it was a necessity and you had the right. But it is terribly painful for her to travel, even briefly. You, a mortal, hurt her." I have put in the implications. But that is the quote. So it isn't so much why Mother Winter finds it painful to travel. We know that. It is why she can be hurt at all, feels the ravages of time, what that walking stick actually is etc that are the real questions we must investigate.
Kbrizzle: Whilst Mab could trick Sarissa, why would she? She could get any human to guide her. She wanted to find a reason to spend time with her daughter. Mother Winter and Summer comment directly on Mab's more human like nature; namely to feel affection for her daughter (Maeve). Mab cannot (both as Fae and a Winter Queen) just incur debt with a deal. The tragedy of it is, in order for her to have a relationship with her child, she has to put her child in debt to the office of the Winter Queen. Maeve is different, she has Chosen to be a Fae and is the Winter Lady, their relationship has different rules that are much more than merely parent and child. One of the underlying points of Cold Days is that Mab (and Faeries in general) are more human, more mortal, than Dresden realises. Mab's humanity almost ends the world. Had she been fully inhuman she would have killed Maeve outright and the problem would have been solved. Hell, she was so upset when she realised what had to happen she couldn't speak without a mouthpiece in order to not kill Dresden with the force of her rage. Mab "loves" her children (for want of a better word). She has no need to lie to incur Sarissa's debt. I think you are correct though that Mab is not extending Sarissa's life in the magical sense (Sarissa's fae nature does that well enough), it is more she helps her not be overtaken by her brain disease (whatever it actually is).
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@Yuillegan
I never said that Mab tricks Sarissa at all. My point was that Mab makes it possible for Sarissa to continually not choose being mortal or Fae without the inevitable consequences, in return Sarissa spends 3 months a year at Arctis Tor.
Mab absolutely loves both Sarissa & Maeve but I think you’re right that because Maeve is also Fae, her relationship with Mab has a lot of dimensions (most of which do not allow Mab to show her love); however a lot of these limitations don’t exist with Sarissa (although some obviously do). Perhaps this is one of the things that drove Maeve to insanity? Her jealousy of Mab & Sarissa’s relationship is clearly stated in CD.