Lara is also aware that when the masquerade drops, there will be mortals queuing up to be ‘eaten’ by Lara and her kin, her brand of evil will flourish whilst others will wither, and yes the ‘bigger’ monsters will make her seem small and relatively harmless in comparison. She just needs to tidy up those of the White Court like Madrigal and Madeleine who lack judgement and control, and she has been doing this.

If the White Court only ‘eats’ those who are competent and give their consent, and Lara were to create a reality TV show “Real Vampires of Chicago” with her and her sisters, it will be a ratings success and an inexhaustible food supply.

Yeah. I can totally see the Raiths advertising, and being extremely successful. It would be a blow to the remains of Skavis and Malvora too, they'd find it a *lot* harder to find people willing to be fed on - especially Skavis, nobody likes despair.

Is there?  I think it is possible that some could chose to ignore it. 

There's a WOJ that they didn't inherit magic specifically because Charity stopped using her talent, though.

Luccio was already a better fighter then him in the goddamn frontier days, and she's has a lot of time to practice since then.

Depends on situation, I think. For fighting around a lot of innocent bystanders without gear - yeah.
For something like a big open battle that's probably coming in BG ... I don't think so.

If we were talking about pure wizard skills, yeah. But Harry has a lot more than that now. When he really needs it, he can use Winter power, which gives him a ton of energy other wizards will have real trouble matching.

Molly, his half-baked Apprentice, notes that he's not as good as she is at Tracking Spells, one of the things that Harry considers himself good at.

I don't think "half baked apprentice" is accurate for Molly of that era. Isn't that in Bombshells? I think she's in practice a fully capable wizard at that point ... just not recognized by the Council.

Also, Molly's way of doing things may be more efficient, but for something like tracking spells (unlike battle magic) Harry doesn't have to *care* about efficiency.

Sure Harry is a walking artillery cannon, but most decent Wizards would wreck him

I really, really doubt it.

Harry has been limited in the books since Changes -- in GS he was dead, in CD and SG he was without his usual gear.

I think that's intentional. We're only going to get to see what Harry can do with everything he's learned since Changes + full gear + being Winter Knight in BG, where the opposition has been scaled up enough so that he can still be the underdog. The series is shifting again, IMO, kind of like it did in Changes.

Luccio is still far more formidable than Harry by virtue of precision,

I don't think so... at least not more formidable in general.

In certain situations, absolutely she'd have an advantage - like having to fight in close quarters with innocent bystanders without gear to focus her spells (like Harry with the octokongs at the beginning of SG).

But in a more open fight, which was what I was thinking of in terms of "heavy hitters", I think current-era Harry's power advantage is too large for Luccio's skill advantage to cancel out.

If we were comparing pure basic wizard abilities, no Winter or Soulfire, that would probably be different.

and she's had years since her last appearance to recover.

It's been years, yeah, but do we know if recovery is possible? (Or rather, more than she's already shown in SmF/TC, which are already a couple years after DB.)

If her new body just doesn't have the power capability of her old one (and I don't think that grad student was a wizard) she might have hit an upper limit.

And there are still the veterans who were escorting Mai in TC, unless they've been KIA skirmishing with the Fomor since Harry has been incommunicado.

Oh sure. I am sure there are mid-list types still out there, but I doubt they are competitive with Luccio, Morgan, or current-era Harry.

The "heavy hitters" were the Brute Squad -- the ones that were killed at Archangelsk offscreen before Summer Knight.

I'd say no, there aren't any heavy hitters among the wardens whose names we know, outside of Chandler and Harry

Brute squad, good point. The Wardens really have been hit hard.

I'm not sure Chandler is really a "heavy hitter" in the sense I'm talking about, though he's important and not a "new-generation" Warden. He does time stuff and divination I think; probably he's intelligence, not front-line combat.

Can Eb be considered a Warden?  He was heading up the security and seemed to be in charge of them.  He is a very heavy hitter.

Eb's absolutely a heavy hitter, but I don't think he's a Warden anymore.

Though he apparently was one in the 19th century, I believe there's a reference to McCoy the Captain of the Wardens in "Fistful of Warlocks".

As I'm sure your aware from discussion of Kings blood. If you go back far enough everyone is related. An I am talking earliest history.

Ah ok, yeah maybe a supernatural ancestor way back at the beginning...

I still think that magical talent is a fundamentally 'human' thing though. I think there is a difference between how the series portrays wizards/magical practitioners vs. scion-types (Changelings, WCVs, Red Court Infected, etc.) who have some sort of 'Choice' mechanic or bifurcated nature.

Molly is pretty easily explained. When she actively used magic it actively made her cells reproduce closer copies, an effect that clearly does not continue when you stop using magic. So her cells were literally suffused with magic when Molly was concieved.

Yeah I think that's probably about right. There probably is a genetic component but active use of magic and the biological effects of it also play a large role.

IMO this is why magic is 'usually' inherited matrilineally but not 'always'. Genetics + prenatal environment are far more likely to push someone above the threshold where their talent manifests obviously, having the Sight, etc. than genetics alone.

But in the really strong lineages like Eb/Harry you don't need both. Charity was a quite weak talent.

An if it's not inherited than the WCV'S actions in WK have absolutely no real value.

Oh, I think it's "inherited" just not entirely "genetic", the mother actually using magic (not just having the talent/genes) seems to be important from the case of the Carpenters.

Its all inheritance in the DF, can't think of a single example where someone gets something or has an aspect that's not inherited from somewhere.

What about transfer of power from supernatural beings to mortals? Lash gives Harry Hellfire, Uriel gives him Soulfire, I'm pretty sure Harry isn't descended from angels or Fallen...

Salic law is the main reason I disagree. It's clearly an inherited property,

Oh I agree it's inherited. But I think it's "strength of talent" that is inherited, it's not just a yes/no gene.

The things Harry's said about 'anyone could theoretically learn magic but it's vastly harder if you don't have the Sight' makes me think that very few if any people have literally zero talent. It's just that most people aren't aware of it unless they have the Sight or an obvious ability manifests (like Abby's precognition or whatever).

So I think it's more that 'magical talent' is an inherent part of humanity and in any human population you'll get ~1 in a million Council level talents and lots more weaker ones.

And the 'Council level' distinction is artificial, just based on what the White Council's tests are. Carlos even talks about (in WN, I think) that the qualifications might be lowered due to losses in the Vampire War.

genetic even(one theory made a good case for magic being part of the mitochondrial system)

I strongly doubt it. If it were genetic, Charity no longer using magic wouldn't prevent Molly's younger siblings from inheriting the gene.

I think the maternal vs paternal distinction is much more likely a result of exposure to magic in the womb.

And we're told it's "usually" female-line, but if it was mitochondrial it would be 100%. Paternal inheritance does happen sometimes, apparently Eb's wife was a vanilla mortal.

Luccio was significantly weakened by the body swap in DB, and Morgan took over battlefield command. Apparently the majority of the Wardens were also killed by the Red Court/gas attack during DB.

Then Morgan died in TC.

Harry is still technically a Warden for now, but he hasn't really been active as one in a while, with being dead and then stuck on Demonreach, plus Winter Knight stuff.

And now the Council is considering kicking him out...

So, who's left? Harry has said that there are more Wardens than before the war, but they're mostly new.

Ramirez is awesome, but I don't think he's anything like Morgan/Luccio level. He has more precision than Harry, and good magical endurance, but I don't think he has Harry/Morgan level raw power or Luccio-level skill.

I hope we'll see what the Wardens can do in BG...

Perhaps not all of them. But not all of them are like Mab either. Not all the gods are mantles. Maybe not even most.

Presumably not. I don't think the Creator/TWG is a Mantle, and I don't think Ethniu is either.

But there's a WOJ about Mantles and the Greek gods etc. (the one with Hercules' Mantle passing to the Hulk and now existing "in people's minds and imaginations") which does kind of make me think that most of the "pantheon" gods are or have Mantles.

So I'd tend to think that Titans, capital-D Dragons, etc. are "natural" Immortals older than humanity, but "later-generation" / more 'human' gods (like the Tuatha de Danaan vs. the Fomor, or the Olympians vs. the Titans) are Mantle-based to at least some degree.

Harry calls the Tuatha 'proto-fae' but that would still be consistent with them being basically human-derived via Changelings... they may have been more like a Fae Court, not all capital-I Immortals, just the leaders.

And 'gods' may be a loose term anyway... Vadderung called the Lords of Outer Night & Red King "mostly retired gods" like himself but they didn't seem that immortal, they stayed dead and no Mantles passed on. They had that one 'crushing will' trick and otherwise they were just supercharged Red Court Vampires.

Isn't this all that ever happens to power anyway?

Well, I meant dividing up the power among multiple successors (or combining the power of several beings into one) as opposed to the same beings continuing to exist but altering their form and roles.

Molly may be in a sense part of Hecate but I doubt she perceives herself as being essentially 'the same person' as Mab or Mother Winter or the Summer Queens.