In 11 dimensions, the number becomes insane.. 9,188,2801,591,004,303,761,991,879,201,232,836,019,976,271,010,838,154,206,141 possible alternate earths.
Off-topic, but I'd like to know the equations behind this number... (I suspect an error ;D)
So, wouldn't the outsiders be like from the mexican restaurant down the street and stacks of enchiladas? Pancakes make look good after an eternity of eating just enchiladas!
volume of an 11 dimensional sphere divided by volume of the earth, im KM
I may use this.
now imaging Cthulu..eating enchilladas
Serrack, if you see this, is there any way i can unlock the orignal thread? id like to merge them, for OCD sake. :D
I may use this.
now imaging Cthulu..eating enchilladas
Serrack, if you see this, is there any way i can unlock the orignal thread? id like to merge them, for OCD sake. :D
Question:
since you use the multi-verse to explain the power of our Mab, does that imply that there is only one Mab?
BTW, do you still possess the post where Mab's power is evaluated?
as to the ammount of energy in a soul, that would conflict with what mother winter said..
What did she say?
insane theory 1:: the conservation of energy is not respected ;D.
I do question your numbers about Mab and her power levels though. We saw her bring snow to Chicago out of season, but that took a LOT out of her, and while it's large in relation to things like your average vegetable garden, it's still small in relation to actual weather, like cold fronts, hurricanes, and so on.
Matter has a lot of energy, it's just mostly bound up in being physical. When we release that energy, or even a fraction of it, we get nuclear blasts. I would argue that soul energy is a similar thing.
Especially since conservation of energy is still in effect, bringing things from Outside just stops the equation from being a closed system, in the same way as fueling a car, or the sun radiating on a photocell.
I do question your numbers about Mab and her power levels though. We saw her bring snow to Chicago out of season, but that took a LOT out of her, and while it's large in relation to things like your average vegetable garden, it's still small in relation to actual weather, like cold fronts, hurricanes, and so on.
(also, technically that's the ability to control weather, not climate. Weather is snow, rain, clouds; climate is temperate, desert, arctic, subtropical, etc... Pedantry ho!)
We saw her and Titania start moving massive air fronts, but I don't know if we have any way of determining what power was involved with that, it could have been a pebble=landslide thing. Wheras the snow was out of season, and more likely to require a more brute force application.
as to soul energy being relased by the destruction of matter.. its possible, but im not aware of people glowing light blue lately.
my theory is based upon the idea that:
Magic comes from living things
the energy for life comes from the sun
if a being has more energy than can be explained by solar output, then obviusly they have soem other source. th easiest explanation for this is the (largely proven) existance of other worlds to draw on.
;D
I wasn't saying that soulpower is directly connected to converting matter into energy, but metaphorically speaking.
I've pointed this out before, but one BIG flaw in this argument is that you are assuming "brute force" to destroy things. In fact, using brute force is generally the most inefficient way to destroy things. Consider that nearly every time we've seen how something happens in the DV, it's always using the right leverage.
- Think about how much gravity Harry would need to generate to cause a building to fall down -- It's immense (you need to at least double the gravity of the Earth. That's 10^26 right there). So of course, he doesn't create the Gravity from scratch. Instead he moves it around, concentrating it. What's that? Can't be done using normal physics. Magic.
- Similarly think of Tunguska. The amount of energy released was immense. Megaton bomb level. This doesn't however mean that Ebenezer has "nuclear bomb level power". All Ebenezer really needed to do was to nudge an asteroid a little out of its path-- similar to Casaverde. Ditto for Krakatoa - there's already pressure there, you merely need to encourage it a bit.
- Think of all the times Harry moves energy around -- he's a fulcrum, not a power source. Why are you assuming that Mab is any different.
"Mab can create a hurricane". Ever hear of the Butterfly Effect? Mab is nigh-omniscient. Surely she knows where exactly she needs to flap her wings.
- Ditto about "destroying planets". Archimedes once said "Give me a place to stand on, and I will move the Earth." Does this mean he was more powerful than Mab? Of course not, it means that he knew how to use leverage (literally). Destroying a planet is actually relatively easy, especially if you got tons of magic tricks to get around the pesky Physics, and doubly so if you've got the power to totally ignore (WoJ that powerful beings can remake reality around them). Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot. Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole. Poof to the planet.
- Heck, why go with small stuff. What if an archangel simply has the power to change one of the constants of the universe? Negate the Strong Force for a split second, and all your atoms split up into component part. Poof to Universe. No need to brute force it. That's without resorting into clever magic backdoors.
-----
Basically, measuring the power of someone by the stuff they can destroy and then assuming they must have used brute force and strictly "real world physics" to do it is at best a flawed overestimate.
Harry concentrated gravity in the radius of a parking lot. Make your circle 10 times bigger, and you've concentrated enough gravity to create a black hole. Poof to the planet.
I think Uriel is the Wg's agent, and can draw on Wg's power just like Harry can draw on Mabs'.. or Murphy can draw on Uriel'sby this i take it you feel uriel is the one who used her as a mouth piece in changes?
;D
by this i take it you feel uriel is the one who used her as a mouth piece in changes?
ms duck specifically said murphy channels uriels power, was wondering if SHE believed that.
plus it had to be a particular being, they can't all talk at once, and say the exact same thing.
My understanding is that Ms. Duck does believe that it was Uriel speaking through Murphy.
My point is that it doesn't change the overall theory any if you substitute one of the other (non-fallen) Archangels for Uriel. They should all be the same relative weight class with the same relative restrictions on power usage.
One of the Archangels.
Michael (Archangel) is the one who approached Sanya about taking up a sword. So Uriel isn't the only Archangel who is active. My guess is that Uriel isn't the Archangel who is the will behind the Swords but we don't really have evidence in the text to support many theories.
and no ammount of butterfly farts can make a blizzard in chciago in the summer. its simply impossible. you have to change the temperature of an enormous amount of air- and hold it against pressure forces- for months from the description. ill say it again, the figure for Mab is on the low side. its very conservative.
Where does it say that Mab made a blizzard during the summer? SmF takes place in October.
Ghost Story
major snow, in may, in chicago
at some point, you need a sourcebut to use your example of pancakes and spheres.. the sphere being the geographical reach of the NN. You are adding adding energy to your closed system. Conservation of energy cannot be respected.
the source for the powe rof life on earth is the sun.
;)
Ghost Story
major snow, in may, in chicago
just the ammount of energy needed to create that much temperature drop alone- not including the pressure containment- is huge. far greater than any nuclear blast ever created by man. and she kept it up for months.
there is simply no way this can be any kind of domino effect. there are several ways she could have accomplished this ( bringing in cold air from the NN, etc..) but i honestly think she just willed it to become colder, much like odin willed harry not to get up. this would explain why the effect was limited only to the chicago region, and not the entire hemisphere as would have been caused by some sort of domino effect.
for example: lets say she used a small ammount of power to trigger volcanoes in the south pacific. that would have vented tons of ash into the atmosphere, thus cooling the waters, thus diverting the water flow. thus, instant mini ice age. its happened before, and could be done with far less energy.
but, just like prior mini ice ages, it would have changed the climate for much of the planet.
to change the climate over a multi state region, but only that region? that requires something containing the effect. Like Harry talking about summoning fire, you have to aim and channel things.
Mab not only was dropping the equivalent of a nuke an hour, she was also stabalizing the area outside the blast zone so that it didnt permantly change the climate for the entire continent.
no matter which way you look at it, its impressive as hell. and far more than any mortal wizard could ever do.
Second the outsiders are very likely just that- from outside. Imagine another world, much like our own, but in another part of the galaxy. Imagine one god there won. It owns all the pancakes. But now its still hungry, and wants more. It’s sending expeditions out to find new pancakes to eat.
This would imply either it’s only attacking our pancake now, or on each pancake, there is a Mab or Mab equivalent who is in charge of the local defense. I’m heading to the latter.. as it would explain why Mab has more power than any other local god, and why she gets power from her purpose. The ‘UN’ of Cosmic Gods is feeding Mab power to help with her ‘local defense’ much like how a superpower would send aid to a local power in the real world.
@ snowfall in chicago... there is a major differnce between occasional flurries (largely caused by the lake) and several feet of snow. To get the latter, you need to drop the mean temperature about 25-30 degrees c. over an enormous area.
I may use this.
now imaging Cthulu..eating enchilladas
Serrack, if you see this, is there any way i can unlock the orignal thread? id like to merge them, for OCD sake. :D
No, no, no, Duck. Cthulu would be the Crack-head who tries to rob everyone to get more crack. No rhyme or reason, just the acquisition of crack. Robbing other Outsiders, Us, the WG ANYONE and Everyone for a fix.
Actually, I agree with Knnn on that one.
Mab didn't make a blizzard happen, it was just colder where she resides during 6 months. So there is no proof her own power made the air colder, it seems more probable that a "butterfly-effect" tended to bring all cold air toward Chicago. There is no proof that the actual average temperature on Earth diminished that year.
thats the point.
if it didnt, its becuase the effect was local- and the math says the power to do that would be enormous.
even 'drawing the cold air to her' implies massive power on a global scale. if its something that just happnes, and not an intended effect, that means shes even far more powerfull then calculated.
which is scarier.. godzilla knocking over a gigantic skyscraper, or the power of godzillas snores knocking it over while she sleeps? either which way this incredibly huge mass got moved.
thats the point.
if it didnt, its becuase the effect was local- and the math says the power to do that would be enormous.
even 'drawing the cold air to her' implies massive power on a global scale. if its something that just happnes, and not an intended effect, that means shes even far more powerfull then calculated.
which is scarier.. godzilla knocking over a gigantic skyscraper, or the power of godzillas snores knocking it over while she sleeps? either which way this incredibly huge mass got moved.
You've talked about beings who were on similar (or greater) power levels as Mab - Titania (obviously), Drakul, and Ferrovax to name a few. However, I believe that list was generated before Changes. Where does Odin fall on that list? Hypothetically (assuming they exist), where would entities such as Zeus or Quetzalcoatl fall?
Your question presupposes a linear hierarchy--which isn't surprising, since the series has come from Harry's viewpoint, and Harry is a straight-lines kind of thinker. Power is a much more nebulous thing than that, and something that is problematic to quantify. I think a reasonably simple argument could be made that Molly is a /much/ more powerful wizard than Dresden, for example. And in many situations, she probably is. Dresden tends to think in terms of "who would win this slugfest" when he's dealing with the supernatural world because, well, of all the slugfests. Odin isn't gonna slugfest with you. He /could/. But that isn't the Allfather's style. Odin saw you coming last year, and he made his countermoves to what you're doing right now a week and a half ago. For guys like him, fights are what happen when you /fail/ to win with /real/ power--knowledge and forethought. Of course, sometimes everyone's knowledge and forethought cancels each other's actions out, and then it's time to get all Monday Night Nitro. No one in the Dresden Files universe is really sure how that would shake out. But everyone on that level knows that they might be about to find out.
Sure.
But Knnn's point was that moving air doesn't require that much energy. According to chaos theory a small effect at the right place and the right moment can have huge consequences (propriety of many non-linear dynamic systems). The way I see it, Mab acts like a weird force of gravity: imagine if each cold molecule of air had a very, very slightly bigger chance of moving in Mab's direction? In 6 months it would have an important impact on the weather (as it's a chaotic system after 7-14 days), with a small expenditure of power.
if there is no tornado occuring, no numbers of butterflies flapping could ever create one.
Note that the butterfly does not power or directly create the tornado. The flap of the wings is a part of the initial conditions; one set of conditions leads to a tornado while the other set of conditions doesn't.
yah its my less favorites as well.. I like the book but i dont like the ending, having this whole emotional lead up too 'find your killer' and it turns out ' its a shadow, sorry you cant knwo which one.' was a let down.point of fact harry never bothered to ask which shadow it was, the dolt >:(
;D
Thing is, Tornadoes, Hurricanes, et al. are always being created. The only thing that stops them from turning into the likes of Hurricane Sandy is that they are generally destroyed (i.e. friction with other systems) before they get pick up enough energy. If Mab made sure to nurture one of these proto-hurricanes (or heck, even create one herself - they are not that powerful when they start off), then soon enough it will grow up to be big by itself. I.e. butterflies.
if there is no tornado occuring, no numbers of butterflies flapping could ever create one.
ok, ill duck out on this one. youre missing the whole point and then half.. conservation of energy in the DF does still apply. any secnario you ahve metioned would cause worldwide changes, whcih is not what happened. You dont like my conclusions, fine. you dont have too.
ok, ill duck out on this one. youre missing the whole point and then half.. conservation of energy in the DF does still apply. any secnario you ahve metioned would cause worldwide changes, whcih is not what happened. You dont like my conclusions, fine. you dont have too.
Fair enough.since arctis tor is the wellspring for winter, she kinda did in a roundabout way. she drew power from her strong places to fuel the may winter. this brings up the question, is mab stronger when she draws from arctis tor like harry is with DR. its totally possible she could create that connection while elsewhere btw. like i think harry will do with his new staff.
I think you are wrong on the hurricane angle, but I will admit that I'm less convinced of my stance regarding the snow in Chicago during Summer. I personally don't think Harry would have noticed worldwide changes if they had occurred (he was busy), but this is certainly a point I have to work around.
Regarding conservation of energy, what if Mab simply opens a portal to Arctis Tor for a few months? The temperature there is so low that it is bound to cool off the surrounding areas. Add in a bit of thermodynamics and you get snow at minimal cost.
Fair enough.
I think you are wrong on the hurricane angle, but I will admit that I'm less convinced of my stance regarding the snow in Chicago during Summer. I personally don't think Harry would have noticed worldwide changes if they had occurred (he was busy), but this is certainly a point I have to work around.
Regarding conservation of energy, what if Mab simply opens a portal to Arctis Tor for a few months? The temperature there is so low that it is bound to cool off the surrounding areas. Add in a bit of thermodynamics and you get snow at minimal cost.
It would create worldwide changes, but very minor: the rest of the world would be very slightly hotter. The law of conservation of energy is conserved.
Granted, I've made some grandiose assumptions (i.e. we can use a number at least 10 times smaller size for Chicago, more efficient cooling, energy from snow melt, average temperature for May, etc.), but the power to cool down Chicago is not insignificant.
I think that is why she was getting a little bit testy. No matter how you work it out the power involved is on a different scale completely from most of the beings that we are familiar with.
ahh a numeromancer ;)
yep. i drove one of my DM's nuts years ago when i played a mage that cast spells in calculus.lmao... i really gotta find some people to bring me into the old school rpg loop. i like it but i don't know anyone nerdy enough they actually play ::)
;D
*snip*
dont worry, im sure we can take her. all it will take is one iron bullet, right? um, peeps? who wants to shoot first?
;D
yea but mortals don't fight fair, especially if we wanna survive
I don't suppose you feel up to doing a calculation on the energy that Harry had to use in order to create the iceberg in Cold Days, do you?
Turning a 6 foot deep volume of water (I don't know the exact square footage of the portion of the building that fell into the lake but it was big enough to result in a very significant volume of water/ice) into ice should be one hell of a lot of energy. Water doesn't like to change temperature easily. :(
It's calcs like these that are the source of my "supernatural side stomps mortals in a fight" view....
And sure, if I get her full consent to do so in written form promising no form of vengeance (in more precise terms than that). Other than that, no way. ;D
Speaking of iceburgs, I have to wonder why he didn't try to use the heat from the water he froze around Sharkface's barge to cook Sharkface.
Speaking of iceburgs, I have to wonder why he didn't try to use the heat from the water he froze around Sharkface's barge to cook Sharkface.good point, he does it quite nicely in changes. maybe cause he's not moving ambient energy but creating cold power this time? it wouldn't have amounted to alot. plus has he been using fire much at all in CD?
Opposite magic from what he did in White Night.
He didn't suck the heat energy out of the water (with the ice being a by-product of his magic) - he poured winter cold into the water (with the ice being the intended result).
BTW, does anyone else get a nifty 'fuel/air bomb' type of vision when reading some of the scenes where he is sucking power to use? The lightning powered spell in Storm Front or the "sucking the heat out of things to power fire" spells in White Night as examples.
Fair enough, though you have to wonder where the heat is going when he throws "spheres of condensed, absolute zero cold" at people.
And what do you mean fuel/air bomb vision?
ms duck, think you might be a little low on your power estimates, if only because any magic emanating from Mab (either by choice or by happenstance) should have been grounded by the water (ie the big damn lake). so any cold front would actually require much more energy (Im remembering molly and the fog and the fairies on jet-skies). I see it this way: if the cold front would usually take some amount of energy to create, and water counteracts this (both due to "leaching" the magic away and due to the high specific heat of water) Mab would have to use some amount of magic in serious excess to any calculation. we know that fairies are limited in their magic in/on/around water (see the above mentioned fog incident with the fairy assassins). Anyway, just my two cents.water seems to be mabs domain though, as she tells harry in GS and the lady in the lake act in DB.running water is different maybe, but is just a lake.
water seems to be mabs domain though, as she tells harry in GS and the lady in the lake act in DB.running water is different maybe, but is just a lake.
The lake is still a massive stopper for spells, it's part of why Demonreach was built there according to Odin IIRC.no running water is a purifying force, your getting it backwards. still water is located in mabs domain. running water would be worse
Though she's probably a good enough water magic user that running water doesn't really bother her.
no running water is a purifying force, your getting it backwards. still water is located in mabs domain. running water would be worse
Wasn't that fire? And what part do you think I'm getting backwards?running water washes away magic, still water grounds it out. unless your a water mage
And why do you think she'll have problems with running water?
running water washes away magic, still water grounds it out. unless your a water mage
Ah. All of this was because I referred to the lake as a stopper rather than a more general term to explain why it's a pain to cast spells over the lake?no thats why... ;)
Though she's probably a good enough water magic user that running water doesn't really bother her
no thats why... ;)
I cant sleep so dont take this too seriously, im juts thinking aloud.. too much coffee does this too me.
whats the worst case Mab could be?
well.. lets assume that mabs was not doing it on purpose. ergo, it was a side effect from her pressence on earth... which was on demon reach thats about 250 km from chicago, more or less, according to descriptions from Jim. throw in another 100 km to hit Joliet ( Murphy's place) and we can assume a cylinder with a height of 8.5 km and a rough radius of 350 km. or 3,271,183,350,550,372 cubic meters
at 1.205kg per cubic meter, at average temp we get..
about 3,941,775,937,413,198,260 grams
now it take 1 joule to cool 1 gram of air (with considerable fudging for humidty, etc..)
so 21 c to 0 ..
82,777,294,685,677,163,460 joules. to accomplish this for one second. in may.
(asuming no convection, because there was no reports of tornados tossing the sears tower into the lake.)
(also assuming instant transfer, as im not getting into special relativity and times cones here.)
gives us via fourier's heat equation a transfer of 0.006804 calorie/centimeter^2-second
hmm now the surface area of that cylinder was (in cm):
934,623,814,442,963 cm^2 (asuming contact surfaces only)
so along with the inital cost, she was burning 6,359,180,433,469 joules per second just to keep it cold.
thats another 4,944,898,705,066,212,572 just in the few days we saw in GS.
total cost of the cooling alone:
132,226,281,736,339,289,182 joules
or 2,098,829 small atomic bombs.
dont worry, im sure we can take her. all it will take is one iron bullet, right? um, peeps? who wants to shoot first?
;D
Challenge accepted! ;D
Just how far out do you think Demonreach can be? (How long does Harry say it takes to get to the island? I don't have CD in front of me right now).
I don't suppose you feel up to doing a calculation on the energy that Harry had to use in order to create the iceberg in Cold Days, do you?
Turning a 6 foot deep volume of water (I don't know the exact square footage of the portion of the building that fell into the lake but it was big enough to result in a very significant volume of water/ice) into ice should be one hell of a lot of energy. Water doesn't like to change temperature easily. :(
lets say the building is 100 ft by 50 ft in diameter, for conveniences. i wanna hear more numeromancy lol ;)
Ms Duck,
The original Badelynge has been moved to the DFRC
As new Quackiness is generated, just say the word and the curators will facilitate its proper place in the Badelynge in a manor similar to how the "Pancake Universe" addition got in. I like how the ongoing discussion of newer editions is contained in newer threads (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35811.0.html), so in general pratice, this topic will remain locked when not trying to open formation for new editions to the Badelynge. -Serack
Ms. Duck and Knnn. I have no idea of phisics like you guys doing, but I got something your not considerating, that might or not affect your calculation.
Mab was there since december, so she was there since high winter, wouldn't it cost her less energy to maintain the low temperature it was alredy present during winter, than to "cool down" the temperature on may?
I will admit that I have raised my estimate since doing all this math. Given everything, I think a value of 10^17 joules is not an unreasonable starting point for the energy of the entire feat or keeping Chicago cool. I personally think it's 100 times lower, Duck thinks 100 times higher. We're in the right ballpark.
-------------------
The big difference between us is that I'm seeing it in terms of powerplants: Mab = 1000 nuclear power plants.
Duck is seeing it more in terms of a casting a single spell to produce the outcome -- giving you a single energy expenditure (i.e. a bomb): Mab = 2,000,000 nuclear bombs.
-------------------
IMHO, looking at Mab as a powerplant gives you a better understanding of her capabilities. I feel that computing the amount of power Mab can sustain is a better estimate of how powerful she is.
but everyone understands this thing:
(http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/thisdayintech/2010/02/easy_buster_cropped.jpg)
:)
Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.
@ms duck. x-men for mavra and flying brick for elder? :o what jacked up world do you live in were a brick outguns the x-men?
one problem with that, murphy is wonderwoman not batman :P
well elaine is the one who amde the wonder woman joke in WN...So Lara is Wonder Woman? :o
that being said, since murphy is not a 6' tall demi goddess with super stregth, speed, flight, super human weapons skills, and lesbian tendacies ill have to assume shes not ;)
So Lara is Wonder Woman? :o
that.. I could buyAgreed. Lara isn't quite brick-like enough for me to be Wonder Woman in the big leagues. Lea seems to be a better fit as we progress.
actually, Lara is annother classic charchter..
Kinky female vampire (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LesbianVampire)
Jim is a very good writer, and quite entertaining, but he does tend to use classic charchter builds
anyone notice harry was gollum in changes compared to susans frodo? or is that backwards?
anyone notice harry was gollum in changes compared to susans frodo? or is that backwards?
anyone notice harry was gollum in changes compared to susans frodo? or is that backwards?
hmm new woj..QuoteJim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.
so while worlds remain at the center of the NN, its not allways the same world? innnnteresssting...
thats how the outsiders are getting here :)
So your suggestion is that Outsiders are merely aliens from others planets in other alternate universes, who use some sort of connection between their Never Never and ours to reach our Earth because although their planet and ours don't share the same geographic location, they share the same symbolic "Center of the Universe" location?
Unless Outsiders come from an alternate universe made of anti-matter and/or a galaxy of said alternate universe made of the same (since current science can't tell which of the galaxies out there are matter vs. antimatter), it certainly wouldn't explain the properties of Mordite. Also, it doesn't really explain why they are so hard to affect with magic, if they are so symbolically linked to us.
I suspect Lash was gollum, actually.Susans vampire spirit/half/mantle/demon actually.
hmm new woj..Its all Snowflake theory... Jim's borrowing from Planetary on this one.
so while worlds remain at the center of the NN, its not allways the same world? innnnteresssting...
thats how the outsiders are getting here :)
Its all Snowflake theory... Jim's borrowing from Planetary on this one.
You're basically suggesting that Outsiders come from a place more stable (for lack of a better term) than the Never Never. Maybe it's my reading of the Ender's Game series of books (and Homestuck)
but I always pictured Outside as being less stable than the Never Never, rather than your current conjecture. I always saw Outside as being those aspects of reality that exist outside of space-time.
The only real downside of being a Homestuck and also active on this forum is the continual mental snag of remembering which CD one is talking about, I'm finding.
Before CD I was inclined to tend in this direction, that they would be sort of chaotic in a Far Realm/Lovecraft/Titans/Chaos and Old Night sort of way. Harry's assertion in CD that all Outsiders are really acting in concert sort of pulls away from that, though. (Though I am not at all sure where Harry gets that idea from or how reliable it is; could equally well be his general conspiracy-theorist tendencies looking for another Theory Of Everything now that the "Black Council" being behind everything is scuppered.)
I love planetary, bit im pretty sure the idea predates both. One thing about Warren Ellis and Jim Butcher is both of them are very good at giving fresh spins to old tropes.I was being cheeky... :P
robert heinlien was playing with this one back in the 60s, and im pretty sure he didnt invent it either.
;D
i suspect the outsiders are something like a divine virus, spreading from and consuming worlds.
Harry's assertion in CD that all Outsiders are really acting in concert sort of pulls away from that, though. (Though I am not at all sure where Harry gets that idea from or how reliable it is; could equally well be his general conspiracy-theorist tendencies looking for another Theory Of Everything now that the "Black Council" being behind everything is scuppered.)
Given no space and no time, there is only Here and Now.
If there is only Here and Now, if there is action (as we see in the attack on the Outer Gates), it implies purpose,
and for there to be Purpose, there must also be consensus.
In incline to read Mother Summer at the Gates as saying that Winter holds this duty in this age of the world, as it were, but that there have been other before; that and Rashid appearing to talk to Harry in a manner consistent with being linearly timebound to their previous conversations appear to me rule out the no-space-and-time posit on the Outside.
If there is only Here and Now, if there is action (as we see in the attack on the Outer Gates), it implies purpose, and for there to be Purpose, there must also be consensus.
Not following your logic here either; does a spinal reflex pulling away from a flame imply purpose ?
On largest-scale goal, perhaps, but on strategy, and smaller goals along the way?
The "all outsiders connected" bit makes me wonder if they're "cross-sections" or whatever of a single multidimensional being (Old One?)the outsiders are discussed in harrys internal monolog in DB. the outsiders are servants of the old ones, evil gods from before known time banished beyond the outergates. this supports my theory outside the gates is the immortals version of hell.