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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on May 02, 2021, 05:39:49 AM

Title: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: groinkick on May 02, 2021, 05:39:49 AM
I think Jim said that Twelve Months will be about Harry dating Lara, and having to survive attempts on his life.  Do you think any of these attempts will actually be done by wizards of the White Council? 
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Avernite on May 02, 2021, 07:10:38 AM
I think Jim said that Twelve Months will be about Harry dating Lara, and having to survive attempts on his life.  Do you think any of these attempts will actually be done by wizards of the White Council?
I doubt it. The Council is filthy rich and cowardly, much better to hire disposable assassins. Sure, it's Harry Dresden they're going after, so any one assassin won't be cheap, but still.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: vincentric on May 02, 2021, 04:11:16 PM
The Council may try something indirect, especially if "Wizard of Chicago" starts to gain traction but nothing overt unless EB is sent to the wedding as the Council's representative to an Accorded Nations function. Luccio and/or Ramirez would be better diplomatic choices though.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Snark Knight on May 02, 2021, 04:29:54 PM
I doubt it. The Council is filthy rich and cowardly, much better to hire disposable assassins. Sure, it's Harry Dresden they're going after, so any one assassin won't be cheap, but still.

Yeah, killing him at least semi-publicly (in the sense that most of the Council members are aware they did it) would probably be too controversial. Eb is the only one who could kill him with magic, and while the engagement will probably push him to consider it, I don't think he would. I'm not sure any of the Wardens Langtry would trust to follow an order to kill Harry in secret without using magic have the competency with guns or bombs to stand a near certain chance of success.

Hiring someone in Kincaid or Grey's orbit to do it for them makes a lot more sense for Langtry and his faction. Someone with a footing in mortal organized crime hits would be a bonus, because even if they fail, Marcone would be the instant number one suspect for the paymaster behind it.

Or if they're willing to get their hands dirtier, Shagnasty or the Genoskwa would probably go after Harry for a bent quarter and a copy of whatever intelligence the Wardens have on his defenses to make the job easier for them.


I'd also expect attempts on his life from at least some of:
- factions of the White Court that don't want the engagement to proceed
- possibly Marcone for real
- King Corb
- Outsiders and their cultists. If Harry's confidence that he can adapt binding and banishing cornerhounds to exorcising Nemesis isn't misplaced, that's a threat to them.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 02, 2021, 06:41:56 PM
I don’t think the white council will make any real attempt night now. If the white council tried openly Harry can reasonably ask his liege for help or just bring it into her attention and that will backfire for the white council.

The Genoskwa will certainly try though and white council involvement is not necessary for that. He will almost certainly underestimate Harry though.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Snark Knight on May 03, 2021, 12:34:01 AM
The Genoskwa will certainly try though and white council involvement is not necessary for that. He will almost certainly underestimate Harry though.

Why? He's seen just about every powerup Harry has at his disposal, unless he takes to carrying the spearhead regularly.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 03, 2021, 03:32:17 AM
Why? He's seen just about every powerup Harry has at his disposal, unless he takes to carrying the spearhead regularly.
Because he is full of his own superiority.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: groinkick on May 03, 2021, 05:23:04 AM
Why? He's seen just about every powerup Harry has at his disposal, unless he takes to carrying the spearhead regularly.

he hasn't seen everything at Lara's disposal.  He also faced a Harry who had slacked at his magic, and used more of his Winter Mantle.  It felt like Harry had decided he needed to start practicing his craft again at the end of BG.  I suspect he's going to have upped his magic game.  I think some spells that used Soulfire could be effective. 
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: TheCuriousFan on May 03, 2021, 09:43:53 AM
I don’t think the white council will make any real attempt night now. If the white council tried openly Harry can reasonably ask his liege for help or just bring it into her attention and that will backfire for the white council.

The Genoskwa will certainly try though and white council involvement is not necessary for that. He will almost certainly underestimate Harry though.
Underestimating Harry wouldn't really matter too much since his preferred MO is going in under a veil and twisting heads off and he's fast enough to just speedblitz Harry in a confrontation.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 03, 2021, 10:39:59 AM
Underestimating Harry wouldn't really matter too much since his preferred MO is going in under a veil and twisting heads off and he's fast enough to just speedblitz Harry in a confrontation.
Harry was warned by river shoulders and toot and his crew were very effective against veiled opponents.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: groinkick on May 04, 2021, 06:48:58 AM
Underestimating Harry wouldn't really matter too much since his preferred MO is going in under a veil and twisting heads off and he's fast enough to just speedblitz Harry in a confrontation.

I'd like to think that even if Harry didn't know what was coming, his magical senses would give him a last second warning, and he'd throw up a shield at the last moment.  He's supposed to grow at least a little in every book.  Since Changes it's mostly been him getting stronger with the WK Mantle.  I'm hopeful that his magic will begin to improve after some of what was said in BG.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 04, 2021, 10:52:06 AM
I'd like to think that even if Harry didn't know what was coming, his magical senses would give him a last second warning, and he'd throw up a shield at the last moment.  He's supposed to grow at least a little in every book.  Since Changes it's mostly been him getting stronger with the WK Mantle.  I'm hopeful that his magic will begin to improve after some of what was said in BG.
A few pixie bodyguards will detect any visible attacker.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on May 05, 2021, 06:41:42 PM
My prediction is there will be multiple attempts by multiple attackers; and one of those attackers, or their sponsor, will escape detection and retribution.  So, it's possible that Harry will track down the final would-be assassin only to find that someone else killed them first, thus shielding their employer from identification.

You see, there are two possible reasons why someone from the White Council would target Harry.  First, a few members of the Senior Council; in their typically arrogant and self-righteous manner, might determine that Harry is a threat that needs to be removed.  I think they would fear what Lara Raith could get a compliant Harry Dresden to do for her and the White Court.  The second reason is that Peabody's unknown partner in the White Council; maybe I should refer to this individual as Wizard X, wants to carry on the mission of weakening the White Court and, if possible, set the White Council and White Court against each other.  The alliance between Winter and the White Court is something Wizard X would want to stop.  Killing Harry and making it look like the Council was responsible could potentially accomplish both goals.   

About the Genoska; Genoskwa? whatever, I really don't care.  I don't know why Jim decided to bring this one shot goon villain back from the dead.  I hope the big guy makes an attempt so Harry can get rid of him for good, though I suspect we might not see him again until we see Nicodemus again; so not for some time.  Plus, there is probably some special way that Harry will have to use to kill the big ape for good. 

I think there will be three factions or individuals who try to kill Harry.  At least one of them will be; if not generic, at least predictable.  I could see a pack of ghouls from the LaChaise clan make an attempt.     
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Gman on May 06, 2021, 12:56:47 AM
I don't see the WC attempting to kill Harry unless he does something major to piss them off. I think they kicked him off the WC was to neutralize his growing influence/power on the WC. They see him as useful against common enemies. He has defeated many common enemies. He is still feared and that he could go to the dark side. He is considered a loose cannon.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Mira on May 06, 2021, 06:05:39 AM
I don't see the WC attempting to kill Harry unless he does something major to piss them off. I think they kicked him off the WC was to neutralize his growing influence/power on the WC. They see him as useful against common enemies. He has defeated many common enemies. He is still feared and that he could go to the dark side. He is considered a loose cannon.

I am also reminded of a DR Who episode, I believe it was "The Invasion of Time."  The Doctor declares himself President and proceeds to have his companion, Leela, who is a female warrior thrown out of the city to the wilderness.  Why because from there she will the most effective against the enemy they have to fight.  Harry is more effective off the Council in doing what needs to be done than hampered by the constraints that the Council puts upon him.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Basil on May 07, 2021, 12:36:20 AM
I don't know if the White Council will actually try to whack Harry.  The whole expulsion of Harry looks very bad and did not at all go the way Harry seems to think it did.

(1)  Langtry forced the vote while McCoy and LTW were down for the count.  It seems likely that Rashid was absent as well.  He is often absent and we know the Outer Gates were under assault during the events of Battleground.  These three are Harry's most consistent supporters.  The pre-texts probably don't matter much to Rashid.  Rashid is practically a part of Winter himself, given the fact that they guard the Gates.  As for using lethal magic on the nominally human servants of the Fomor... that's garbage as well.  They have a recognized exception for self-defense and Harry was in a war against those nominally human servants of the Fomor -- one that they started.  Killing the enemy in war is not murder.   

(2) Christos may also have been absent.  We are told that he was very badly injured himself.  Because Carlos doesn't mention him to Harry, we are meant to assume that Christos is anti-Harry, but we actually don't know that. 

(2A) We don't know if Liberty attended either. She was at the battle, but I don't recall her status at the end. 

(3)  Given these 3 - 4, maybe even 5 absences, a "unanimous" vote to expel Harry would be easily achieve.  We know of the way the Senior Council functions and specifically that Langtry held the proxies of every absent member.  Mai is also in his pocket and very anti-Harry.

(4) The vote and meeting was an absolute mess.  We know this at least because Carlos is mentioned as having been "shouting."  Even if one did not like Harry, and even wanted him out, one could still object to the obvious injustice of holding the meeting without McCoy, LTW and Rashid to speak on behalf of Harry, to say nothing of Harry himself. 

(5) The outcome reeks of Langtry's attempts to "compromise."  Harry is out supposedly because he's a black wizard, but then they suspend the sentence?  Then task the one man in the council that you can be sure won't kill Harry with the job of cleaning up, if needed.  Give me a break.

In the end, I think it more likely that Langtry believes this maneuver will give him some much needed leverage over Harry: Do this/Don't do that and we'll reconsider.   
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 07, 2021, 11:30:03 AM
at point 1 no. Killing people in battle is not self defense, you can flee. The real question is do think those servitors are human.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Basil on May 08, 2021, 04:25:32 AM
I agree that a question is whether the Turtlenecks qualify as human.  As we know, they don't seem to consider the White Court vampires as human, even though they are very nearly human.

But, there definitely is a self-defense exception to the First Law.  Given that, I cannot see how opposing armies in actual combat situations would not be considered within that exception. 

Here's Storm Front:

Quote
Of course, it made sense, from Morgan’s narrow and single-minded point of view. A wizard had killed someone. I was a wizard who had already been convicted of killing another with magic, even if the self-defense clause had kept me from being executed. Cops looked for people who had already committed crimes before they started looking for other culprits. Morgan was just another kind of cop, as far as I was concerned.

Butcher, Jim. Storm Front (The Dresden Files, Book 1) (p. 75). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Summer Knight:

Quote
But some of the other wizards had thought I deserved lenience, and there was a precedent for using lethal magic in self-defense against the black arts. I’d been put on a kind of horrible probation instead, with any further infraction against the Laws punishable by immediate summary judgement. But I’d also been sixteen, and legally a minor, which meant I had to go someplace—preferably where the Council could keep an eye on me and where I could learn better control of my powers.

Butcher, Jim. Summer Knight (The Dresden Files, Book 4) (p. 39). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Avernite on May 08, 2021, 06:36:52 AM
I agree that a question is whether the Turtlenecks qualify as human.  As we know, they don't seem to consider the White Court vampires as human, even though they are very nearly human.

But, there definitely is a self-defense exception to the First Law.  Given that, I cannot see how opposing armies in actual combat situations would not be considered within that exception. 

Here's Storm Front:

Butcher, Jim. Storm Front (The Dresden Files, Book 1) (p. 75). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Summer Knight:

Butcher, Jim. Summer Knight (The Dresden Files, Book 4) (p. 39). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
I would say instead that that all shows there's a current of WC thought that such an exception exists, but there's serious pushback against it (hence why Harry was on harsh probation and not cleared; the hardliners needed to be appeased).
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 08, 2021, 06:43:16 AM
In changes Ebenezer used the blackstaf to kill a lot of human mercenaries during battle. That was black magic and Harry was shocked.

If wizards were allowed to use magic in battle the whole dresdenverse would be quite different. If the servitors were really humans Harry had to find another solution or simply had to leave his people to die. Veil and slip away. That is how listen to winds people probably died. That is how it works.

The seven laws are not about morality or good and evil. Not directly as we see them in this universe anyway.

And we never have seen self defense as a reason someone did not break the law. Harry was convicted.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: The_Sibelis on May 08, 2021, 10:40:40 AM
I think Jim said that Twelve Months will be about Harry dating Lara, and having to survive attempts on his life.  Do you think any of these attempts will actually be done by wizards of the White Council?
oh they'll try. No doubt through oblique or expendable means... I mean, who else was navigating the ways to try to send stuff from the NN side into his apartment?🤔🧐 Someone amongst them has already tried..
I think they won't send the ace in the hole until after MM though. Eb himself.. although I think
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Snark Knight on May 08, 2021, 05:13:45 PM
at point 1 no. Killing people in battle is not self defense, you can flee. The real question is do think those servitors are human.

Which would be desertion in battle, after the Senior Councilors present ordered him to fight, with Eb even specifying no quarter. But sure, he could have theoretically done that, even though it would have presumably been a catch-22 death sentence on different grounds.

We have Molly's POV that the turtlenecks' minds aren't human anymore as far back as Bombshells, but the Council might not have made that kind of detailed assessment, and they're not going to take her word on it at this point.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 08, 2021, 06:46:51 PM
Which would be desertion in battle, after the Senior Councilors present ordered him to fight, with Eb even specifying no quarter. But sure, he could have theoretically done that, even though it would have presumably been a catch-22 death sentence on different grounds.

We have Molly's POV that the turtlenecks' minds aren't human anymore as far back as Bombshells, but the Council might not have made that kind of detailed assessment, and they're not going to take her word on it at this point.
Molly’s word is difficult to deny but the white councils definition of human is probably somewhat opportunistic.

Catch 22 is nothing special in Harry’s life. But I think battle is not a self defence situation otherwise every wizard would use all kinds of magic in battle against humans and things would deteriorate quickly.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: groinkick on May 10, 2021, 07:49:31 PM
In changes Ebenezer used the blackstaf to kill a lot of human mercenaries during battle. That was black magic and Harry was shocked.

If wizards were allowed to use magic in battle the whole dresdenverse would be quite different. If the servitors were really humans Harry had to find another solution or simply had to leave his people to die. Veil and slip away. That is how listen to winds people probably died. That is how it works.

The seven laws are not about morality or good and evil. Not directly as we see them in this universe anyway.

And we never have seen self defense as a reason someone did not break the law. Harry was convicted.

He didn't technically break the Laws though.  If he had, they would have executed him, not kicked him out.  They know he acted because he had to.  They needed an excuse, and created one.  If he had fled instead, they would have probably kicked him out for abandoning his fellow White Council members in battle.
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Basil on May 10, 2021, 08:42:51 PM
Here's the passage from Changes where Harry sees McCoy cut loose:

Quote
Ebenezar turned toward the walls from which the soldiers were firing. Hits thumped into his robes, but seemed to do little but stir the fabric and then fall at his feet. The old man said, mostly to himself, “You took the wrong contract, boys.” Then he swept the Blackstaff from left to right, murmured a word, and ripped the life from a hundred men. They just . . . died. There was absolutely nothing to mark their deaths. No sign of pain. No struggle. No convulsion of muscles. No reaction at all. One moment they were firing wildly down at us—and the next, they simply— Dropped. Dead. The old man turned to the other wall, and I saw two or three of the brighter soldiers throw their guns down and run. I don’t know if they made it, but the old man swept the Blackstaff through the air again, and the gunmen on that side of the field dropped dead where they stood. My godmother watched it happen, and bounced and clapped her hands some more, as delighted as a child at the circus. I stared for a second, shocked. Ebenezar had just shattered the First Law of Magic: Thou shalt not kill. He had used magic to directly end the life of another human being—nearly two hundred times. I mean, yes, I had known what his office allowed him to do. . . . But there was a big difference between appreciating a fact and seeing that terrible truth in motion. The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible. I also saw veins of venomous black begin to ooze their way over the old man’s hand, reaching up slowly, spreading to his wrist. He grimaced and held his left forearm with his right hand for a moment, then looked over his shoulder and said, “All right!”

Butcher, Jim. Changes (The Dresden Files, Book 12) (pp. 396-397). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Harry certainly views it as a violation -- a shattering no less -- of the First Law.  So, perhaps Arjan has a point.  One certainly could interpret the passage that way; one could also interpret it as shock that McCoy would attack so casually and easily -- just ripping the life from 200 hundred mercs in an instant.

If I wanted to play lawyer here -- and I do -- I'd say that we can't know from Harry's point of view whether McCoy actually violated the law, or whether Harry just thinks he does.  As Harry points out, legally speaking McCoy's office trumps the law. 
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Mira on May 10, 2021, 08:47:42 PM
He didn't technically break the Laws though.  If he had, they would have executed him, not kicked him out.  They know he acted because he had to.  They needed an excuse, and created one.  If he had fled instead, they would have probably kicked him out for abandoning his fellow White Council members in battle.
I agree, killing with magic had nothing to do with kicking him out, they wanted to do that beforethe battle began in Peace Talks.  There are other forces at work here, the irony is someone might think he is safer out of the Council all together than part of it.. 
Title: Re: Think the White Council will make an attempt?
Post by: Arjan on May 10, 2021, 09:33:34 PM
Here's the passage from Changes where Harry sees McCoy cut loose:

Butcher, Jim. Changes (The Dresden Files, Book 12) (pp. 396-397). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Harry certainly views it as a violation -- a shattering no less -- of the First Law.  So, perhaps Arjan has a point.  One certainly could interpret the passage that way; one could also interpret it as shock that McCoy would attack so casually and easily -- just ripping the life from 200 hundred mercs in an instant.

If I wanted to play lawyer here -- and I do -- I'd say that we can't know from Harry's point of view whether McCoy actually violated the law, or whether Harry just thinks he does.  As Harry points out, legally speaking McCoy's office trumps the law.
Harry knew about the blackstaf at that point but if Harry had done the same there without blackstaf and with all the council wizards there he would have been dead.