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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: Amseriah on October 31, 2010, 06:30:02 PM

Title: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Amseriah on October 31, 2010, 06:30:02 PM
Hi, I have been very interested in making a character that has true faith powers but drew them from a philosophy rather than a religion.  I know that in the books Harry talks about seeing people invoking true faith of different religions such as Shintoism, but we have also seen Harry display powers of faith based on his magic with the holy symbol being his mother's necklace.  So do you all think that using a philosophy or a code of ethics would be beyond the scope of the intent of the powers?  I was thinking about having a knight (not an overly religious knight however) who has a True Faith in the code of chivalry.  Another character idea that I had was for a character who had True Faith in the Seelie Court or Unseelie Court.  My reasoning behind this is that the Court itself seems to be sentient with the 3 queens taking up the mantle of the position but the power coming from the court itself.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on October 31, 2010, 06:44:29 PM
Sounds like a good idea to me. I think that True Faith is about the person who has it, not the thing that it's in. So you could get True Faith powers from your belief in the deliciousness of a certain type of salad dressing if that belief was strong enough.

Besides, it's your game. You don't have to care about the intentions of the people who made the game. Your obligation to them ended the moment you paid for your books/PDFs.

PS: Nobody believes that strongly in salad dressing.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Kaldra on October 31, 2010, 07:47:43 PM
i dont know have you SEEN those kids in the valley ranch commercials?
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Lanodantheon on October 31, 2010, 08:33:15 PM
Knight of the Jolly Green Giant? Hmmm.......
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on November 01, 2010, 01:24:13 AM
Knight of the Jolly Green Giant? Hmmm.......


...Hulk Smash?

On topic, I wholeheartedly support this idea, and have been doing something similar in the world my group has been playing in. Really, there isn't a character concept you can come up with that the rules don't support.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: lankyogre on November 01, 2010, 01:33:33 AM
Personally, I think that to have True Faith it would have to be something that the Universe responded to. Especially the True Faith powers that already exist. Guide My Hand, Bless This House, etc, seem like things that would need power to give the practitioner. The Faerie Courts could probably do it, as could Magic, religions, certain other philosophies and Beliefs, but I would be afraid of opening it to wide, because of things like "salad dressing." Because there is no way that believing in a type of salad dressing would lead you where you need to be to fight.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: MyNinjaH8sU on November 01, 2010, 01:39:03 AM
...Rightousness, a core power for the Champion of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Amseriah on November 01, 2010, 02:27:58 AM
Ok....so no salad dressing...what about Coffee???  Surely that is powerful and important enough to have gained followers and a certain amount of power.  I think that explains Starbucks!
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Kaldra on November 01, 2010, 02:37:54 AM
do not dare get between me and my coffee on lab day >.> starts at 8 and ends at 6.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: toturi on November 01, 2010, 07:22:36 AM
Little kids that really really believe in Santa or the Tooth Fairy or for the matter, their parents. "I believe in my daddy and I know he would want me to do this!"
Because there is no way that believing in a type of salad dressing would lead you where you need to be to fight.
It could help you go defend the factory that produces it when it is under siege by all sorts of activists.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: MijRai on November 01, 2010, 08:22:31 AM
I will make a Champion of the FSM!
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: ralexs1991 on November 02, 2010, 07:05:49 PM
I will make a Champion of the FSM!

epic win!!! ;D
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Ranma1558 on November 03, 2010, 07:16:08 PM
Faith of Family, faith of your country, faith of democracy, faith in your fellow man, faith that duct tape fixes everything, faith in nature...I should have ended with the duct tape one....
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Blackblade on November 03, 2010, 08:10:49 PM
A person with True Faith in the philosophy of Nietzsche could be quite interesting.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Drashna on November 03, 2010, 10:03:40 PM
Personally, I'd say that there has to be true faith there and a power behind it to back it up. And not just a minor power, something on the high end of the scale.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Amseriah on November 04, 2010, 03:17:10 AM
Personally, I'd say that there has to be true faith there and a power behind it to back it up. And not just a minor power, something on the high end of the scale.

I don't know, I see true faith as being a personal power rather than something that originates from an outside force/entity.  Otherwise when
(click to show/hide)
he would have just been casting a spell.  Instead he used his personal belief rather than channeling the force itself.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: ludomaniac on November 04, 2010, 12:40:21 PM
This is reminding me of a D&D campaign I played in many years ago (20 years, now that I think of it).  I played a priest of Aravache, the god of Trade and Commerce (don't look for this god in any published works, it was a homebrew game).

Anyway, my typical combat role involved going invisible and casting lots of cure spells on the fighters.  We called this the "Invisible Hand" tactic.  Also, when turning undead I would occasionally use this battle cry: "Your assets are LIQUIDATED!"
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: TheMouse on November 04, 2010, 01:31:03 PM
Great. Now I'm going to have to make the Knight of Communism. He believes in the common worker. Not even the beasts of the Nevernever can stand against the masses once they've thrown off the shackles of their capitalist overlords.

Workers of the world, UNITE!
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Richard_Chilton on November 04, 2010, 07:04:33 PM
I've seen that in a book... I forget which it was, but someone held off a vampire with his (or was it hers?) faith in communism.

Richard
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: sjksprocket on November 04, 2010, 07:15:44 PM
Duct tape would work imo. It's like the force, It has a light side, a dark side and binds the universe together. Speaking of which, it would be interesting to be a jedi knight. have true faith in the force and an IoP that is a magical glowey beam sword of magic and awesomeness.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: sinker on November 04, 2010, 09:31:01 PM
I think the tough part about this is that we're really talking about two different things rolled into one. I would expect that your faith in communism (or more likely your faith that humankind can unite for the greater good as opposed to the governmentish system of communism) would hold off a vampire or cause some of the effects that Harry uses in the novels. However your faith in communism is unlikely to be able to give you knowledge you don't have (the Faith manages trapping of Guide my Hand) or give aid in answer to your prayer (the Potent Prayer trapping of Righteousness). These seem to be an external force providing you with power.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Becq on November 05, 2010, 02:40:57 AM
For some reason, Beni comes to mind.  Remember Beni from The Mummy, in the scene where he's trying to ward of Imhotep with a series of holy symbols?  :)
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: neko128 on November 05, 2010, 02:57:30 AM
For some reason, Beni comes to mind.  Remember Beni from The Mummy, in the scene where he's trying to ward of Imhotep with a series of holy symbols?  :)


Good movie.  I should watch it this weekend.

What if you were the champion of two faiths?  :)  The books prove you don't necessarily have to believe in a faith to champion it properly, in Mr. Dresdon's world...
Title: Details Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: newtinmpls on January 04, 2011, 09:17:11 AM
“I think the tough part about this is that we're really talking about two different things rolled into one.”

Two things, but I don’t think they NEED to be combined.

“I would expect that your faith in communism (or more likely your faith that humankind can unite for the greater good as opposed to the governmentish system of communism) would hold off a vampire or cause some of the effects that Harry uses in the novels.”

I think these potential effects are similar to the discipline skill in that they represent effects resulting from something internal (belief or faith).

“However your faith in communism is unlikely to be able to give you knowledge you don't have (the Faith manages trapping of Guide my Hand) or give aid in answer to your prayer (the Potent Prayer trapping of Righteousness). These seem to be an external force providing you with power.”

I agree; I would almost call it a pure mortal version of sponsored magic, and allow for different trappings associated with different “sources” (i.e. a Wiccan might have different abilities, or something like that).

Dian
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Lawgiver on January 04, 2011, 04:16:24 PM
I’ve done some exploration on this general idea. I’ve already started putting together an NPC who acts very much like Alan Dean Foster’s “Spellsinger”. He does magic through music. I started him out using the “Music to sooth the savage breast” concept matched to the “Will and the Word” basis of the Dresdenesque magic scheme. In other words, his music has power because he believes it does; it’s an act of Faith. I put him together using a lot of Faith Based focus (stunts, with evocation, etc. So far she's sitting somewhere between a Focused Practitioner and a Sorcerer. There are still some kinks to work out, but it’s shaping up. I don’t see why it couldn’t work with other concepts as well. How about Darwinian Evolution? Someone's faith in “Survival of the fittest” matched with an absolute conviction that you are not fit could get ugly.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: jadecourtflunky on January 04, 2011, 11:11:51 PM
Don't forget about sanya: his faith is in communism (or really some obscure branch of it). He's a knight of the cross. If he can be that, then certainly there can be a true believer of socrates's teachings, or maybe those of other plilosiphers
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: sinker on January 05, 2011, 12:13:54 AM
Don't forget about sanya: his faith is in communism (or really some obscure branch of it). He's a knight of the cross. If he can be that, then certainly there can be a true believer of socrates's teachings, or maybe those of other plilosiphers

Sanya's not really a great example. Regardless of his beliefs, his power comes from the white god.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: newtinmpls on January 05, 2011, 01:04:08 AM
"faith that duct tape fixes everything"

Makes me think ... there has got to be some church of coffee and duct tape.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: easl on January 05, 2011, 01:06:33 AM
A person with True Faith in the philosophy of Nietzsche could be quite interesting.

(click to show/hide)


So I would say yes, its possible for true faith to occur in alternate faiths/philosophies
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Amseriah on January 05, 2011, 01:28:36 AM
He is agnostic, but yes he isn't Christian and a Knight of the Cross
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: sinker on January 05, 2011, 01:32:47 AM
However the question really is whether someone's faith in anything (ideals, people, etc) can give someone power. So again Sanya isn't a good example. His power comes from the white god, regardless of where his faith lies.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Amseriah on January 05, 2011, 02:20:32 AM
Well that then makes the big question:  are the faith powers internal or external?  All of the Knights of the Cross have the faith powers, as does Father Forthill.  Are their power granted to them by the White God or is it something that is internal, the power of their own conviction and belief?
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: jadecourtflunky on January 05, 2011, 02:24:18 AM
Exactly. If you think about it, the knights of the cross are champions of god, which are true believers on steroids. Sanya may have a sword given to him by the archangel michael, but his beliefs are based in trotsky. He may be agnostic, but his belief, and therefore his power, is that he must help the community.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Sh33p on January 05, 2011, 02:25:14 AM
There's an NPC in a setting I'm working on who outright weaponized Hollywood Atheism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodAtheist). He was a Soviet soldier in Afghanistan who, upon being confronted by a djinn that took out his unit, went so far off the deep end of belief and unbelief that it turned a bayonet knife into a bona fide weapon of faith. He killed the djinn in short order. The only thing he has left is faith in himself, and something broke down inside of him such that said self-faith has turned into a higher concept comparable to a personal deity. He's somewhere between nihilism, atheism, and narcissism (or whatever it is when you believe in yourself over everything else in the universe), and his mere presence can be like kryptonite to some supernaturals.

Don't root for the guy though. He's a sex-trafficking Russian mobster in league with two houses in the White Court, among other things.

That said: The RPG book only seems to describe True Faith as coming from belief in something bigger than you are (although maybe not in those exact words). If someone had faith in the idea of atheism, to me that'd be fine.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Lawgiver on January 05, 2011, 02:55:47 AM
Saying faith in “anything” can “make magic” is oversimplification. If someone has faith that chicken soup is good for the body and soul, that doesn’t mean it can do healing magic and redeem sinners. There has to be something substantive to believe in…whether religious doctrine/dogma, a philosophical stance/pretext, etc.

An instance of non-religious, philosophically based “faith” could come from a deep and abiding faith in the principles of Plato’s Republic. The American Founders used a lot of that to make a nation out of nothing and it’s still standing (however battered and time-worn). There’s plenty within Plato’s treatise to found a faith-based system of beliefs that could well rival those of any religious organization in the world. Likewise, Marx’s Manifesto contains ample dogmatic/doctrinal tenets for the same. Whether or not a particular form of communism acknowledges religion or not isn’t germane. Does the philosophy of Communism lend towards faith? Ask the Bolsheviks whether their faith was good enough…

Heck, for that matter, Sun Tzu’s (circa 500 B.C.) “Ancient Art of War” could match them. After all, doesn’t Bushido (“Way of the Warrior”, code of conduct adhered to by samurai) embrace every last scrap of the essential nature of Ancient Art of War and still qualify as a non-“religious” faith?  Even Musashi’s “Five Rings”, a central piece of Bushido training literature since the 1600’s, is part of Bushido now; sort of a Bushido “New Testament”.  The seven “virtues” of Bushido are Rectitude, Courage, Benevolence, Respect, Honesty, Honor, and Loyalty… certainly a match for Chastity, Temperance, Diligence, Charity, Patience, Kindness, and Humility the seven Virtues of Christianity. A strong enough belief in Bushido might well convey religious level faith “magic”.

I think it comes down to, what does a one believe in… presuppositionally... without need of proof. That’s the nature of faith.

Duct Tape, peanut butter sandwiches and Sharon Osbournes aside, if there’s something substantive to the belief system, there’s substance for enough faith which, in game terms, will translate to a “True Believer” faith-based character. That’s all the GM needs. Getting the players to swallow it might be another story, but as long as the GM deems it good, it is good.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: sinker on January 05, 2011, 05:07:05 AM
Ok, there are two different classes of faith powers/abilities and it really depends on which one we are talking about. If you want to perform any of the faith-based stunts or tricks (holding a creature at bay, gaining social armor, etc) then you could do that with any kind of faith. However there are faith powers (Swords of the Cross, the Faith manages trapping of Guide my Hand, the Potent Prayer trapping of Righteousness) that are all about another source (mostly the white god) giving you guidance or power. Just because you strongly believe in yourself or an idea, does not mean that you can spontaneously gain knowledge that you didn't have before or call power from nowhere.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Sh33p on January 05, 2011, 09:33:06 AM
Sure you can. It just involves playing a little fast and loose in the name of Fun.

Knowledge from Nowhere = Leap of Logic. Maybe bump your conviction so high that it warps reality a little bit to make sure you make the right call.

Power from Nowhere = Unconscious Wizardry (Harry drawing power from the area around him), Unknowing Use of Sponsored Magic (Higher power decides to root for the underdog with or without belief; Sanya and Harry both arguably qualify in their own ways), Absolute Cosmic Bugfrack Coincidence (Exactly what it says on the tin).

If you absolutely need to have White God/Whoever Else involved somehow to sleep at night, just make it a Sanya case where the believer doesn't necessarily believe in/accept the source of his/her power.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Amseriah on January 05, 2011, 10:51:43 AM
There are some religions and philosophies that state that everything is connected, if you go with a model like that then someone could have access to the True Faith powers by way of having a deeper connection to the collective conciousness. 
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: ralexs1991 on January 05, 2011, 05:57:24 PM
Sure you can. It just involves playing a little fast and loose in the name of Fun.

Knowledge from Nowhere = Leap of Logic. Maybe bump your conviction so high that it warps reality a little bit to make sure you make the right call.

Power from Nowhere = Unconscious Wizardry (Harry drawing power from the area around him), Unknowing Use of Sponsored Magic (Higher power decides to root for the underdog with or without belief; Sanya and Harry both arguably qualify in their own ways), Absolute Cosmic Bugfrack Coincidence (Exactly what it says on the tin).

If you absolutely need to have White God/Whoever Else involved somehow to sleep at night, just make it a Sanya case where the believer doesn't necessarily believe in/accept the source of his/her power.

idk about the unconscious wizardry cause IIRC Bob says somewhere that faith magic and Harry's magic are differnt things entirely
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: sinker on January 05, 2011, 07:36:19 PM
There are some religions and philosophies that state that everything is connected, if you go with a model like that then someone could have access to the True Faith powers by way of having a deeper connection to the collective conciousness. 

Agreed, I'm just trying to say that some things need a source, not an ideal. That is a source that I've used for faith powers. I had a taoist true immortal that used his "oneness with the universe" to spontaneously acquire knowledge and guidance. I'm definitely not saying that you need the white god to have faith powers, I'm trying to say that you need a being (or concept) of power.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: hank the ancient on January 09, 2011, 07:59:27 PM
Church of the FSM/pastafarian
Church of Chuck Norris
Follower of Crom (conan the barbarian ref)
adherent of the School of Rock
Brotherhood of the wooden plank (monty python "dei oh gracia WHACK-WHACK")
Loose organization of people who read and actually bought into "the secret"

alternatively you could have inane NPC demons

Shush, demon of "hey waitaminute did you hear something"
Smudge, demon of "there's something on your shirt"
Gyaaagh, demon of accidentally stepping on sharp legos
ummmmmm, demon of indecisive people in line right in front of you
Okomon!, demon of "that guy who comes to a complete friggin stop before making a right turn off the main road".
Sniff, Demon of "he who smelt it dealt it!"
Yelp, Demon of blaming it on the dog
Guuhlurgle, Demon of "I can't honestly converse with my dentist while he's working, can I?"
Guooh!, demon of the dog just nailed me where dogs always get a man.
uh-huh, demon of trying to give a cat orders
!!!!!!, demon of PEOPLE WHO TYPE IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS! (pronunciation is similar to the straining sound one makes on the toilet)
HUH?, demon of "get your hearing checked" (used to go by the name "Eh?", but then he visited canada...)
ohhaha, demon of "like I've never heard that one before"
Naowut?!, demon of "I just wanted to sit and read my book"
Doy, demon of "can't process simple directions."
Plink, demon of "I just lost the exact change I was planning to use". (infamous around vending machines).
EEew, demon of being hit on by unattractive individuals
TI3VOM, demon of following to closely in a car (use a rearview mirror to figure out that one)


all of these are lietanants to GRRAAAAGH!!!!, demon of "EVERY FRIGGIN TIME!"
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: newtinmpls on January 16, 2011, 08:55:34 AM
"Well that then makes the big question:  are the faith powers internal or external?  All of the Knights of the Cross have the faith powers, as does Father Forthill.  Are their power granted to them by the White God or is it something that is internal, the power of their own conviction and belief?"

Yes; I think it's both.

The "glowing holy symbol" thing seems to be an internal matter (or so Harry keeps telling us - it's his faith in magic).

The sponsored magic flavored powers, such as being able to weild a sword of the cross, seem to be external. Which of course opens up many ideas about items/powers from other faiths.

Dian
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Drashna on January 19, 2011, 08:44:04 AM
are the faith powers internal or external?
Yes. To me it's a combination of both.  There must be an "external power source", such as the White God, or Magick itself. And there must be the strong conviction in that power to be able to influence the world.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: newtinmpls on January 19, 2011, 02:51:07 PM
"However the question really is whether someone's faith in anything (ideals, people, etc) can give someone power. So again Sanya isn't a good example. His power comes from the white god, regardless of where his faith lies."

That's certainly one interpetation, and if you like it or it works in your campain, by all means use it.

I don't happen to share it. So in my campain that's not where his power comes from.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Moriden on February 03, 2011, 05:04:19 PM
True faith in Nietzsche-ian ideals. Just remember to take immunity to true faith powers [-3] because god is dead.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: bitterpill on February 03, 2011, 05:41:01 PM
You could play a true believer in shared humanism,or a true believer in the big sheep in the sky, I think the swords are so powerful because they act as a focus for the belief of the many in the White God. You could play a beliver in the spirit of man and have his symbol of faith being a machine  gun.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Sh33p on February 04, 2011, 04:16:00 PM
True faith in Nietzsche-ian ideals. Just remember to take immunity to true faith powers [-3] because god is dead.
This actually reminded me of Jessica Sorrow, the Unbeliever from the Nightside books. She endured a trauma so intense that, at some point, she literally stopped believing in the real world. So strong is this unbelief that it can pretty much delete people. And places. And things. She's basically a force of nature nowadays. Or unnature, depending on who you ask.

Would be interesting to have someone like that running around.
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: devonapple on February 04, 2011, 04:18:40 PM
This actually reminded me of Jessica Sorrow, the Unbeliever from the Nightside books. She endured a trauma so intense that, at some point, she literally stopped believing in the real world. So strong is this unbelief that it can pretty much delete people. And places. And things. She's basically a force of nature nowadays. Or unnature, depending on who you ask.

Would be interesting to have someone like that running around.

Someone posted a "Dream or Reality" power to this thread awhile back:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19934.0.html

Could be a good start for statting out such a character?
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Warpmind on February 07, 2011, 01:57:31 PM
And now, for some strange reason, I have the mental image of someone bearing a Sword of the Cross-type item of power of some poorly-understood, but active faith (like, say, Wicca), granting an immense power boost to the wielder, but subtracting a hefty control penalty due to the somewhat... unfocused faith popping around...
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: bitterpill on February 07, 2011, 02:44:39 PM
Moonsoaked Oaken Staff +2 Obvious Item of Power
-4  Magic Wicca Magic (rather than just Wicca Magic)
+4 Wicca Offensive Power

-2 Refresh

Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: ScottMcG on February 07, 2011, 06:20:02 PM
Heh.  So much for "an it harm none"!

...
+4 Offense Wicca Magic
...
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: Sanctaphrax on February 07, 2011, 06:21:59 PM
Does "+4 Offensive Wicca Magic" mean that the staff is a focus providing +4 offensive power to Wicca magic?
Title: Re: True Faith of alternate faiths/philosophies?
Post by: bitterpill on February 07, 2011, 07:59:54 PM
Yes it does. Typical I make up an entire item of power as a joke and i Miss-spell the punch line.