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Messages - wyltok

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91
DF Reference Collection / Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« on: December 17, 2012, 08:24:46 PM »
i suspect the outsiders are something like a divine virus, spreading from and consuming worlds.

*cough*CodexAlera*cough*

Harry's assertion in CD that all Outsiders are really acting in concert sort of pulls away from that, though.  (Though I am not at all sure where Harry gets that idea from or how reliable it is; could equally well be his general conspiracy-theorist tendencies looking for another Theory Of Everything now that the "Black Council" being behind everything is scuppered.)

Given no space and no time, there is only Here and Now. If there is only Here and Now, if there is action (as we see in the attack on the Outer Gates), it implies purpose, and for there to be Purpose, there must also be consensus. Even if there are others who don't agree with the consensus, they probably don't oppose it, but rather, ignore us altogether.

92
DF Reference Collection / Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« on: December 17, 2012, 05:27:27 PM »
You're basically suggesting that Outsiders come from a place more stable (for lack of a better term) than the Never Never. Maybe it's my reading of the Ender's Game series of books (and Homestuck), but I always pictured Outside as being less stable than the Never Never, rather than your current conjecture. I always saw Outside as being those aspects of reality that exist outside of space-time.

On the other hand, if you're right and Outsiders come from a place that has a parallel in our Universe, it might explain why a particular conjunction of stars could impact a human's magic to create an Outsiderbane.

93
DF Reference Collection / Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« on: December 17, 2012, 04:59:59 PM »
So your suggestion is that Outsiders are merely aliens from others planets in other alternate universes, who use some sort of connection between their Never Never and ours to reach our Earth because although their planet and ours don't share the same geographic location, they share the same symbolic "Center of the Universe" location?

Unless Outsiders come from an alternate universe made of anti-matter and/or a galaxy of said alternate universe made of the same (since current science can't tell which of the galaxies out there are matter vs. antimatter), it certainly wouldn't explain the properties of Mordite. Also, it doesn't really explain why they are so hard to affect with magic, if they are so symbolically linked to us.

94
DF Reference Collection / Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« on: December 17, 2012, 04:52:26 PM »
hmm new woj..

Quote
Jim: 3) Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.

so while worlds remain at the center of the NN, its not allways the same world? innnnteresssting...

thats how the outsiders are getting here :)

I'm afraid I don't follow. Mind expanding a bit?

95
DF Reference Collection / Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« on: December 13, 2012, 07:35:38 PM »
... And here I thought Odin (or rather, Kringle) is Mab's source of foresight.

96
DF Reference Collection / Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« on: December 13, 2012, 07:08:50 PM »
thats the point.

if it didnt, its becuase the effect was local- and the math says the power to do that would be enormous.

even 'drawing the cold air to her' implies massive power on a global scale. if its something that just happnes, and not an intended effect, that means shes even far more powerfull then calculated.

which is scarier.. godzilla knocking over a gigantic skyscraper, or the power of godzillas snores knocking it over while she sleeps? either which way this incredibly huge mass got moved.

This is why I still posit that Mab is not a single pancake entity, but rather a multi-pancake being. I'm willing to agree that she didn't get there by her own power, but rather, that the cosmic-UN did something to her to make her reach that level in order to be capable of serving her purpose effectively, though I personally believe her purpose alone is enough to rate her at the multi-pancake level without need of this cosmic UN idea.

97
DF Reference Collection / Re: A Badelynge of Quackiness, Part Two
« on: December 13, 2012, 04:18:35 PM »
Ghost Story

major snow, in may, in chicago

just the ammount of energy needed to create that much temperature drop alone- not including the pressure containment- is huge. far greater than any nuclear blast ever created by man. and she kept it up for months.

there is simply no way this can be any kind of domino effect. there are several ways she could have accomplished this ( bringing in cold air from the NN, etc..) but i honestly think she just willed it to become colder, much like odin willed harry not to get up. this would explain why the effect was limited only to the chicago region, and not the entire hemisphere as would have been caused by some sort of domino effect.

for example: lets say she used a small ammount of power to trigger volcanoes in the south pacific. that would have vented tons of ash into the atmosphere, thus cooling the waters, thus diverting the water flow. thus, instant mini ice age. its happened before, and could be done with far less energy.

but, just like prior mini ice ages, it would have changed the climate for much of the planet.

to change the climate over a multi state region, but only that region? that requires something containing the effect. Like Harry talking about summoning fire, you have to aim and channel things.

Mab not only was dropping the equivalent of a nuke an hour, she was also stabalizing the area outside the blast zone so that it didnt permantly change the climate for the entire continent.

no matter which way you look at it, its impressive as hell. and far more than any mortal wizard could ever do.

Out of curiosity, it sounds like you're proposing that Mab created the winter-like weather on purpose during the events of Ghost Story. The feeling I got (though I wouldn't be surprised if I got this wrong) was that the weather changed merely as a side-effect of Mab and Lea's presence in the area. It's the equivalent to the temperature change around Maeve during Summer Knight when she tried to bind Lloyd Slate. Do you see anything to point to the weather being a deliberate effect (like the weather in Small Favor) rather than a side effect (like the temperature change in Summer Knight)?

If the weather change is merely a side effect, then using it to gauge Mab's power is like trying to gauge a car's power by figuring out how much energy can be extracted from the exhaust fumes, rather than, you know, how much energy was already extracted by the car's movement.

I believe I've previously mentioned that I don't agree with all of your assumptions with regards to what we already "know". But for the remainder of this topic, I will assume them all to be correct, and just try to extrapolate from your theory (which, to be perfectly honest, I really like a lot).

   Second the outsiders are very likely just that- from outside. Imagine another world, much like our own, but in another part of the galaxy. Imagine one god there won. It owns all the pancakes. But now its still hungry, and wants more. It’s sending expeditions out to find new pancakes to eat.
This would imply either it’s only attacking our pancake now, or on each pancake, there is a Mab or Mab equivalent who is in charge of the local defense. I’m heading to the latter.. as it would explain why Mab has more power than any other local god, and why she gets power from her purpose. The ‘UN’ of Cosmic Gods is feeding Mab power to help with her ‘local defense’ much like how a superpower would send aid to a local power in the real world.

This is the part I found to be most interesting. Would you mind expanding a bit on what you think the relationship is between Mab and these UN cosmic gods? How subservient do you see Mab being to them? Do they get to interfere in Mab's policy practices? Is Mab treating them the same way Harry treats Mab (namely, tell me how to do my job, and I'll become mediocre at it)?

If Mab is forced to deal with beings who are as high above her as she is above Harry, I could see how the Fae's nature could become a defense mechanism; it would force these cosmic gods to deal fairly with Mab (if they don't they would have to take over the defense themselves).

Another question: if as you say, there are Outer Gates in alternate Earths, and each alternate dimension has its own set of defenders (who may not all be the Winter Court), that opens the possibility of dimensions where the Outer Gates have already fallen and the Outsiders have already done... whaterver it is that they want to do once they get here. What then? Why haven't they tried to jump from that alternate universe to ours?

I see three alternatives:
1. Jumping from one alternate world to another is inherently harder  for Outsiders than crossing over from Outside to Inside.
2. Any world where the Outsiders break the Outer Gates becomes a part of the Outside, so we're losing pancakes, but the war remains in a single front
3. The Outer Gates don't only separate Inside from Outside, but also keep alternate realities separate (unlikely, since we know from WoJ that Shagnasty is dimensionally transcendental).

Another option that I've previously offered is the possibility that there is only one set of Outer Gates, and there is only one Mab across all alternate dimensions. If, as you say, Mab doesn't have the power by herself to reach that level, her purpose should still allow her to make that jump. One thing that we're told about the Outsiders in CD is that they all seem to be working toward a single purpose as far as people have been able to determine. Wouldn't it make sense to uplift the leader of the defense of the Gates so that she can also coordinate all defense across all realities, just like the Outsiders are coordinated, instead of risking failure in our defense due to the existence of factions on our side?

98
DF Reference Collection / Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« on: December 08, 2012, 12:12:04 AM »
You're making a small confusion with GS:
She didn't extend winter, she made it come sooner. So Nemesis acted first.

...whoops. My bad. Still, my point is, Mab first action, even before declaring Harry her emissary, was messing with the weather. Question is, which came first, the weather, or the entrapment circle in Demonreach?

Another idea I had for for Mab declaring Harry her emissary is that it could be a "polite" (well, for Mab" way of letting the forces of Heaven that she was going to involve someone on her side in the events of the book.

99
DF Reference Collection / Re: [CD spoilers] Small Favor
« on: December 07, 2012, 10:34:57 PM »
This is a really cool analysis. A couple of things ocurred to me while reading it.

- Mab's first action was not declaring Harry her emissary, but rather, extending winter for as long as she did (May, wasn't it?). It would suggest that either the construction of the entrapment circle in Demonreach took quite a bit of time and testing, or that she acted first. Which poses the question: why did she choose the particular time she did to declare him her emissary? At a guess, I would propose that it was intended to ensure that Harry wouldn't forego going to Michael for help.

- It would be best not to underestimate the chess-playing skill of the Denarians, even without taking into account anything Nemesis himself was up to. They each have a Fallen on their head. Granted, not all Fallen are created equal, but still, these are the kinds of guys who manipulated Harry just by using 7 words.

- Considering the amount of time it took Harry to identify the Gruffs, I can buy the idea that the Calvin and Hobbes book was placed so that Harry would be able to identify the hobs in time. Since we now know the fae can pass a threshold when they mean well, it was probably even Mab or one of her allies who did it (I kinda want it to have been Grimalkin, myself).

- I agree that Mab probably did not plan for Harry to make it into the Shedd. I suspect, however, that Uriel did. Like Mr. Sunshine said, he could have exerted his influence in a short term solution (like making sure Harry didn't make it into the sign in time, similar to how Michael never has trouble finding a babysitter) instead of giving him soulfire, and things would have been much simpler. Instead, Mr. Sunshine, as he himself admitted, chose to plan for the long game. There's a reason Mab likes him.

- With Jim's latest post in these here forums, we know that Ivy's claim of Neutrality is a lie, one even Kincaid isn't aware of. It's merely her cover. So her giving Harry a clue can't be used as proof of contagion by Nemesis.

- You know what's interesting? When Uriel gave Harry soulfire, it resulted in Thorned Namshiel being broken, making him unable to walk. I could be wrong, but I suspect that was specifically done so that Thorned Namshiel could not participate directly in Ivy's torture, and wouldn't be capable of infecting her with Nemesis.

*Joins Uriel Fan Club*

100
With regards to Odin's Kringle mask.

I'm not sure but wasn't it said near the beginning of the book that some of the powerful beings that run around mucking it up on Halloween wear masks disguising them as beings they aren't?

That is, just because Odin was wearing a Kringle mask on Halloween, could mean it was a blatant disguise, not that that is one of his jobs.

I'm not convinced, and I'd have to reread some of CD to be more sure, but I think it is possible that some of you guys might have the wrong idea here.

Yes, Bob mentions that the reason why the third Merlin created the concept of Halloween was exactly because it would make immortals wary of attacking disguised mortals since they couldn't be sure that the person under the mask might not be as mortal as they originally thought.

Had Kringle not appeared at Harry's party and told us he was going hunting with the Summer King, I would be partial to the idea that Odin was merely wearing a mask. But since these events happened, plus Kringle's comment to Harry that even Immortals have to evolve or die (later reinforced by Bob's comment that Immortals have to go out on that night in order to do their equivalent of feeding), I am fairly confident that Kringle is a mantle as well as a mask.

101
DF Reference Collection / Re: Series Spanning Plot Threads
« on: November 16, 2012, 05:36:51 PM »
I've checked, there is.

And neuro gets an award for best recollection of Storm Front! So yeah, Elaine would also fit in "Threads briefly introduced in Storm Front". Which is quite impressive, since she doesn't actually appear on screen until the 4th book of the series. I have a bit more time, so let me catch up on the topic before I say anything else. Awesome work, Serack, and well done to all those others who've chipped in as well.

102
DF Reference Collection / Re: Series Spanning Plot Threads
« on: November 16, 2012, 02:51:05 PM »
No time now, but Elaine first gets mentioned in Book 2 by Harry's inner jerk. There's quite a discussion about it, actually. So I would move her appearance to that book.

103
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« on: September 21, 2012, 04:00:34 PM »
Are we considering the "executive VP of Creation" status of an archangel as qualitatively different from the scale of "used to be responsible for a significant chunk of creation" associated with capital-D Dragons ?  (I'm pretty sure Michael says something like this about Ferro in GP; can;t check the text now as I'm in work, alas.)

Actually, It's from a WoJ. Here's what King Ash said the last time I brought up this comparison (Quantus proceeded to agree with King Ash on his next post):

I don't believe that Ferrovax is ever described in WOJ as being on a level of being a VIP of creation. We are told that it is a force of nature once in control over various portions of the mortal universe and that they resent humans for upsetting the balance of power. This says nothing more than being on par with Faerie Queens who are in control of portions of the universe, specifically winter and summer (on this planet at least). The fact that he resents humanity strongly suggests to me that he is not a uinversal force as humans haven't reached that level yet that we know of.

Personally, I'm with Second Aristh on this one (he also ninja'd me).

104
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« on: September 21, 2012, 03:25:40 PM »
That is true I suppose.  I was interpreting Creation as the activity, rather than the resulting product.

... Huh, I totally didn't see it that way (I blame Exalted). If your version is right, my perspective will definitely be turned on its head. On the other hand, I don't think we should bother Jim with questions like this one. I'd rather concentrate on more interesting stuff.

But that's not my point. I saw absolutely nothing in the text to indicate that the Odin we met was not the original Odin, and unless I'm forgetting something, nothing to indicate that the Reds weren't the original Mayan gods besides a moment of speculation from Harry "Unreliable-Narrator" Dresden. If there was textual support for that, please remind me of where it is.

Well, I don't know about Odin, but let's not forget the part when a possessed Murph called the Lords of Outer Night false gods, pretenders, and usurpers of truth. I figured their crimes against the Mayans included lying about being their gods.

And, finally--we know that belief can create power wholesale, ala the Shroud of Turin. Does it really seem impossible to you that in the DV, thousands and millions and billions of people all believing in a deity couldn't make it come into existence?

Ms. Duck used to call this the "by His bootstraps" hypothesis: basically, belief creates the White God in the present, the White God travels into the past, creates the World so that belief will exist to create Him in the present.

105
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions for Jim 2012 style 2
« on: September 21, 2012, 02:55:26 PM »
The faeries have said the exact same sentiment (though different wording) as the Fallen, that of being around long before us puny humans (and, I believe with lower confidence levels, of being around long before anything else). Who's to say whether it all seems true to them, even if it's factually false?

Sheaman3773, do you happen to remember where that's from? I've been looking for it for months, to no avail (mostly because The Curious Fan challenged me to find it, and I failed). Could you please point me to it?

The WG was on the ground floor of Creation, by WOJ (as a corollary to the WOJ that says Uriel was the Senior VP of Creation)

Just because Tim Cook is CEO of Apple doesn't mean Steve Jobs wasn't CEO first. Similarly, Uriel's current job does not tell us what the power structure was at the birth of Creation.

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