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Messages - wyltok

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121
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 14, 2012, 05:22:12 PM »
First, as I said earlier, the mechanics of how this worked are determined by Jim, and he probably worked them out after he finished DM.  So they weren't exactly figured out until after the actual prison was "built" and we are theorizing after the fact, so neither of us are likely to be 100% right or wrong.

That's mean, Serack! Using a Doylist argument in a Watsonian discussion is below the belt! (Please not my tongue is firmly in my cheek).

Lasciel had pretty much zero influence (at least that was described in the books) between Harry erecting the steel ring circle and first using Hellfire in the asault on the blampire lair.

I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that what you're trying to say here is that cutting of Lash from Lasciel weakened her, and she had to regain her strength before she could influence Harry's senses overtly, and that the amount of Hellfire Harry swings around increases as Lash becomes stronger, giving us a gauge of how strong she is at any given time. The obvious question, of course, is what is Lash using to make herself stronger? I think the only three options are:

1. She becomes stronger as she becomes more familiar with Harry's brain.
2. She becomes stronger as she influences Harry's subconcious.
3. She becomes stronger by tapping into Hellfire, and has to keep the flow slow so as not to fry his brain in the process.

Of the three options, I find option 2 to most aligned with the idea that she can only reveal herself to him after he consciously uses Hellfire. It would make sense that a similar restriction exists on his subconcious, and she's been talking to him, getting him to accept more and more of her help (we know he's kinda a dick, after all, and we know he's been working on turning her at the same time she was working on turning him).

Please let me know if I got your side of the argument right.

If we consider Harry's dream about his father a pertinant source (it's kinda dubious, considering Harry might have just been halucinating), something (Harry presumes "the demon") had crossed some line that allowed Malcolm to speak to Harry.  Implying that until then, Lasciel's shadow couldn't have communicated with Harry without cheating to some degree.  (reference chapter 11 of DB, it's too long to quote)

... I'm not sure the conclusion you're drawing from this evidence makes sense. All we see here is that Lash communicating with Harry "crosses a line" and has consequences. It doesn't say anything about whether the reason she didn't cross the line before was because she didn't have the power to do so (which I think is the point you're trying to make) or because she chose to wait until the optimal time to do so (the argument I'm trying to make). If you believe that Malcolm's appearance is a reaction to Lasciel's actions, then he's there not because she didn't cheat, but rather because she did cheat. I'm sorry, I'm just not following your train of thought here at all. If anything, this evidence supports the idea that she had reasons to choose to wait (Malcolm), rather than the idea that she was helpless to act earlier.

122
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 14, 2012, 03:30:13 PM »
I'm going to have to disagree with you here.

The way you write this, the prison did nothing except motivate the Shadow to change tatics and pretend it was working.  IMO, until Harry built the prison, Lasciel had an active link to her shadow in Harry, and once he built the prison, the link was sort of severed, and the Shadow was severly hampered in it's options of how to influence Harry.

If nothing else, prison actually served as is a concrete choice to reject Lasciel's influence, thus forcing her shadow to utalize much more subtle methods to gain influence over him.  But I am going to hold to the idea that making this prison severly limited Lasciel's shadow's influence over him.

You may be right on that one. But let's compare what Lasciel/Lash was doing before Harry empowered the steel circle (making Harry hear music in his mind) with what Lash did before he willingly used Hellfire in Dead Beat (she made him see and hear Shiela). Even if it did limit her, it certainly didn't limit her to the point that she couldn't make him see/hear stuff. It still seems to me that Lash on her own could have easily kept the music going in Harry's mind, rather than stopping as soon as he empowered the circle. So if she didn't stop because she had to, she must have stopped because she chose to, no?

123
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 14, 2012, 02:45:09 PM »
Circles stop powers Inside the circle not outside.

Actually, they work both ways. See Butters vs. Corpsetaker's ghosts, and Harry vs. Binder's Grey Men. Circles are nothing more than Magical Boundaries. They separate Here from There, but don't care whether you perceive Here to be inside or outside the circle.

Harry [...] could take any action he wanted including break the circle and summon the coin.

That is a very good point. Free will, after all, is one of the things we know to break circles. So you're right; the circle was never intended to stop him from summoning the coin, and I was wrong to think that it would hinder him in any way.

Lash whispered to Harry. I have never seen any conclusive proof that Lash was playing along with Harry's expectations about the circle isolating Lasciel.

Lash stopped whispering (well, playing Rock & Roll) as soon as he empowered the circle at the end of Death Masks. She didn't need to stop; it's not like she was inside the circle, after all. If you don't think that was Lash playing along, what exactly do you think happened?

124
DF Reference Collection / Re: Questions
« on: March 14, 2012, 01:46:04 PM »
2) When Harry burried Lasciel's coin (Death Masks); why didn't the wet cement disrupt the circle? Harry broke the Shadowmans circle with a film canister.

Keep in mind, the whispers in Harry's mind didn't actually stop due to the empowered steel circle around the coin. Lasciel's shadow was already firmly implanted in his noggin, and just decided to play along with his expectations. She also made it clear more than once that the circle would not block Harry from summoning the coin, either.

Still, that doesn't actually invalidate the original question: why did Harry, magic nerd extraordinaire, expect that pouring cement into an active circle wouldn't disrupt the magic empowering the circle? I'm with Serack on this one: the pouring of the cement was (in Harry's mind) part of the magic being enacted by Harry to entrap the coin, so as part of the same spell, it wouldn't disrupt the circle.

But how are they part mortal, if they were walking around way before mankind showed up? I can  swallow that they evolved from the same fish we did, but that got lost and went to nevernever... But then there is the evolution problem we I mentioned in my other post...

Fae are a species that literally grow in size as they grow in influence and power. Their evolution is at least partly due to their use of the Stone Table as a conduit of power and responsibility. They probably did not look human at all before our monkey forefathers descended from the trees, but were probably smart enough to change themselves once they realized how influential we were. Even so, they still retain quite a few non-human traits in their makeup.

125
DFRPG / Re: Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 4 of 8"
« on: July 18, 2007, 01:46:22 AM »
With regards to wether transmitting alone counts for an invasion of the mind, I point towards Summer Knight, and Elaine vs. the Unicorn. All she was doing was transmitting idle thoughts, but it was enough to stop it cold. Anything that's that effective in combat, I think, qualifies as an invasion. So unless someone wants to argue quantity as a qualifier of invasion or not, I would say transmitting breaks the law.

With regards to the WN spoiler, I answer with another spoiler:

(click to show/hide)


-wyl

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