There are homebrew summoning rules, which I'm sure Sanctaphrax or someone else will kindly link for you.
Cool. Next question: Are you picturing a single "pet" that is more or less permanently present, or a summoner with a small stable of them? S1C0's comment about having several but treating them basically as embodied aspects to invoke seems a clean way to go.I was thinking a crafter that specialised in making golem bodies and having a few that could last more than a scene (as depicted by frequency), as well as some that I would treat them as potions, which thankfully don't need separate rules. However, I also like that first approach that you and S1C0 suggested. It could either be my only permanent golem, my life's work that I put all my skills in (and my only alternatives are smaller potion-golems) or an IoP, a golem from an ancient long lost civilisation.
Here (http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Summoning+Rules) they are.These are very good ideas, thanks. These methods are only for the first time it is summoned?
And here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21533.msg1859090.html#msg1859090) are some example golems.
If I bind the spirit with a willing contract, or by using its true name, should I need less power? At least it seems logical to me. I don't force it that way, merely "hiring".
No, I would not like this particular group of powers, or tweaks derived from them posted on a resource board, partially because they were really written with Fate Core in mind.
These methods are only for the first time it is summoned?
If I bind the spirit with a willing contract, or by using its true name, should I need less power? At least it seems logical to me. I don't force it that way, merely "hiring".
Aight, I'll respect that. I like the idea of committing consequences to a separate body, though, and I may steal that bit if you don't mind.I was thinking that if you summon a spirit, you bound it with a contract and then you let it go back to the nevernever, the following summonings would not need a complexity higher than your Lore, since you would cast the equivalent of opening a portal (placing an aspect).
Not sure what you mean by that. The idea here is that your minion appears when you complete the ritual and disappears when the duration runs out.
If you've bound a demon to serve you and you want to summon it from your house to the battlefield, then that'll probably be significantly easier than summoning it initially. But if the duration of the binding runs out and you want to summon them again, you'll have to do the summoning all over again.
Like Magicpockets said, those could be Declarations.
Alternately, they could not be thaumaturgy at all. You could handle a contract with a demon the same way you handle a contract with a mortal NPC.
You will have to explain that last part to me.
A Golem is a construct (think Wardhound) and from an email exchange with Evil Hat, there should be some rules on making Constructs in the Paranet Papers.
From memory, the guidelines were to take the total point cost of all skills, stunts, and powers and total them. That was the minimum number of shifts required for the ritual to create the construct. Then if people want the construct to stick around, additional shifts are required for additional duration for the ritual. Also keep in mind that going about making constructs like this could get unpleasant if the opponents wise up and manage to leave 'circle' traps scattered about. A construct built via a ritual would essentially collapse if inside a magic circle someone else created.
-Cheers
You will have to explain that last part to me.
Also, what if you use crafting to make the construct and you use a ritual to bind the spirit, or craft a heart that works like a cpu?
The circle traps. How do they work?
So they work like ward traps. But how would the construct dissipate if it isn't made of ectoplasm?
The material of the construct itself wouldn't dissipate most likely (ectoplasm and water being possible exceptions) but the spell energy powering the construct would be gone, returning the construct back to whatever normal, inanimate state the material usually has. A Wardhound for instance would become a stone statue of a Tibetan temple dog.That would depend on how the construct was made I think. If it has a body made of real material and is driven by a bound spirit, It wouldn't go inert in a magic circle, it would trap the spirit and it's body with it.
That would depend on how the construct was made I think. If it has a body made of real material and is driven by a bound spirit, It wouldn't go inert in a magic circle, it would trap the spirit and it's body with it.
I respectfully disagree. If the spirit was a bound spirit, the Circle would break the binding for the spirit. The circle would still contain the spirit, or if might immediately be forced into the Nevernever (depends on the spirit).But that was a construct made of ectoplasm. Braincandy talks about earthly materials. Which is the point of a golem. If you create an ectoplasmic construct, that's just summoning and binding.
From the events in Turn Coat:(click to show/hide)
But that was a construct made of ectoplasm. Braincandy talks about earthly materials. Which is the point of a golem. If you create an ectoplasmic construct, that's just summoning and binding.
By the way, why does ectoplasm melts if you trap a construct in a circle? Can you explain it, please?
He's right about the ectoplasm melting. It's because it's material ripped right from the nevernever. The circle breaks it's link and it melts. That's why I specifically mentioned a construct made of an actual real world materiel, like iron or stone. A magic circle wouldn't destroy that body, the spirit would still have it's vessel but it may well be trapped in the circle.
The body, vessel, or 'normal' matter or material would indeed remain. Any active rituals involved in the golem however would be cut off and stopped by the circle, since there is no longer access to any magic/energy from outside the circle.But if it is self-powered or if I stored magic energy inside? Basically that's the difference between a golem and a regular construct, I think.
The body, vessel, or 'normal' matter or material would indeed remain. Any active rituals involved in the golem however would be cut off and stopped by the circle, since there is no longer access to any magic/energy from outside the circle.That's not necessarily true. Bob's skull is designed to be a "home away from home" for Bob, to grant him protection from things that erode magic and magical entities. Granted, it's mostly sunrise and sundown he uses it for, but I'm pretty sure it works for other types of eroding as well. Including circles. I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work for something like this as well. The circle is probably going to do something, yes. Maybe slowing the golem down. But it wouldn't have to erode the entire magical construct or the spirit within the construct.
But if it is self-powered or if I stored magic energy inside? Basically that's the difference between a golem and a regular construct, I think.
That's not necessarily true. Bob's skull is designed to be a "home away from home" for Bob, to grant him protection from things that erode magic and magical entities. Granted, it's mostly sunrise and sundown he uses it for, but I'm pretty sure it works for other types of eroding as well. Including circles. I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work for something like this as well. The circle is probably going to do something, yes. Maybe slowing the golem down. But it wouldn't have to erode the entire magical construct or the spirit within the construct.
I'm not familiar with that power.
It all depends on what makes your golem tick. If it is actually a magical robot, a circle will shut it down, no question about it.
But what if you have a Bob like entity at the heart of your golem? He could easily work the thing even inside of a circle, and he would be protected inside the golem. And he wouldn't need any continued commands, he can think for himself. Now another question would be, could he break the circle? We know from Harry, that breaking a circle doesn't just require a physical act, but an effort of will, too. That's why Binder's gentlemen can't break the circle, for example.
Though granted, a golem like that feels much more like its own character concept than part of a master/golem concept. Anyway, a lot of possible compels to be had, I guess.
Harry and Ivy were self-powered (with some limits) in Small Favor, but a golem isn't self-powered.Errr, I think your assumption is wrong. This is a typical example of self-powered golem. The name/paper serves as an AA battery, not as a link to a continuous ritual, and if he would have a link it would be a transmitter to give orders from distance (the transmitter then would be shutted down by the circle).
A traditional/classic golem (as opposed to those from Dungeons & Dragons et. al.) depending on which stories are used, is activated/animated by specific , ritualistic Hebrew writing on put on paper and inserted either into the mouth or placed on the head of the golem. Again, depending on which stories on listens to, removing, altering or defacing the writing on the paper would deactivate or destroy the golem. The creator of the golem needs to perform the appropriate ritual(s) in order for the golem to animate in the first place. Once that happens, the paper would presumably serve as a link to the golem for the power it needs to function. Again, the containment circle would act as a barrier preventing outside power from flowing into the golem.
Incidentally, a Threshold would also serve a similar purpose if the Threshold was hostile to the golem.
First, here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/constructs/golem) is a link to the D20PFSRD's list of golems. There's at least two dozen, so you might get a lot of inspiration from that.While very good idea, I feel it's redundant to have projection and ritual. The whole point of Thaumaturgy is to never need to pay for any powers, provided you have the time prepare them, when needed.
I would probably create a Golem-Master with Projection and Variable Abilities. The Variable Abilities has several lists, one for each type of golem you want to create. Add Ritual:Golems for less direct-combat stuff (i.e. making a bird-shaped golem to go spy on someone), and it'd probably look something like this, at no specific power level.
Ritual: Golems [-2]
Refinement [-X]
Skilled Projection [-3]
Variable Abilities (Golem Master, -3 Surcharge) [-X]
Limitation [+X] Variable Abilities only apply to golems.
An Iron Golem's list, for example, would probably look a bit like this. The building blocks would vary depending on your power level, and the specifics of the golem. An animated suit of armor is going to have different stats than something the size of Optimus Prime. (For reference, I based this on the Pathfinder version of an Iron Golem.)
Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
Immunity (Mortal Magic, Fire) [-6]
Limitation [+7] Toughness and Magic Immunity bypassed by rust and electricity attacks, Golem takes -2 penalty to all Athletics rolls and cannot take supplemental actions for two rounds after being hit by an electricity attack, Recovery activates only after being hit by a fire-based attack.
Hulking Size [-2]
Ranged Area Venomous Natural Weaponry (Sword, Poison Gas) [-4]
Semi-Animate [-1]
Mindless [-0]
Feel No Pain [-3]
Oh, and regarding flavor stuff for Golems, it depends on if you want to do historical/mythic golems (big clay dude with the name of God written on his forehead, keeps him alive) or more modern golems, which suit the DFRPG's definition of a golem better (a big hunk of mortal-world-stuff with an animating spirit, typically an elemental, caged inside of it and keeping it animated. the barrier that keeps the elemental in has the additional effect of keeping all other magic out. The mythical Golem has more of a "holy" bent to him, while the modern ones are a bit more multipurpose. Golems can be pretty versatile depending on how esoteric you're willing to get with it. Iron Golems, to use the above example, are typically big suits of armor, which is fine. However, don't think "animated armor". Think about those big metal eagles on the side of the Chrysler building. Think about a gigantic, poison-ink-breathing metal kraken that you reshaped a submarine into. Think about Iron Man. Think about Pacific Rim.
Well, that was my two-cents.
My understanding of Bob's skull from Ghost Story and Cold Days is that it is a sanctuary, acting as a sort of pocket Nevernever domain controlled (and powered) by Bob. This would mean that the skull is closer to being an Item of Power or Enchanted Item as opposed to the target or an active ritual. Also Bob has taken shelter in other, non-magical things from daylight (IIRC a gun barrel in Changes) for brief periods.It is mentioned in YS that Bob's skull is a enchanted item that stores his power. Using the same principles, you can make a "moving skull" depending on the body (that's what I suggest at OP post). Of course, to create it in the first place, you need something akin to Thaumaturgy crafting.
Keep in mind with golems and other constructs, the creator needs to include some sort of provision for the construct to obey the creator's commands, or else have some form of at least limited intelligence and something to keep the construct within behavior parameters that the creator specifies. Without these, a golem or construct will either just sit/stand there and do nothing, or else might decide to do something on it's own which likely wouldn't be what the creator wants.
A circle or a Threshold would disrupt the ongoing ritual which would provide or control the above 'programming'.
It all depends on what makes your golem tick. If it is actually a magical robot, a circle will shut it down, no question about it.I don't know about will, but if we think the circle as a prison ward, if you hit it hard enough with your fist, you will get out. Why else demons attack your circle when you summon them? And they have even less free will.
But what if you have a Bob like entity at the heart of your golem? He could easily work the thing even inside of a circle, and he would be protected inside the golem. And he wouldn't need any continued commands, he can think for himself. Now another question would be, could he break the circle? We know from Harry, that breaking a circle doesn't just require a physical act, but an effort of will, too. That's why Binder's gentlemen can't break the circle, for example.
Though granted, a golem like that feels much more like its own character concept than part of a master/golem concept. Anyway, a lot of possible compels to be had, I guess.
Indeed, if a golem is built like a Wardhound, it is basically a magical robot. Note though that have a golem 'piloted' by a self-aware entity like a spirit that is 'bound' into the golem also can run into a problem, because the Binding tying the entity to the golem would also be impacted by the circle.I remember Wardhounds from Summer Knight but I can't recall what they are exactly. How do you define a magical robot?
An entity 'piloting' a golem without the Binding to restrict or force the entity/golem's actions would actually be closer to having an entity possess and empower a physical object, and therefore I wouldn't really consider something like that a golem, or use any construct-type rules to build it.
While very good idea, I feel it's redundant to have projection and ritual. The whole point of Thaumaturgy is to never need to pay for any powers, provided you have the time prepare them, when needed.
The whole point of Thaumaturgy is to never need to pay for any powers, provided you have the time prepare them, when needed.The point of thaumaturgy is to be able to cast spells. I would definitely not allow you to use thaumaturgy as an "I don't need to buy any other power" thing.
E.g. instead of giving you Inhuman Strength for a duration, you will have an X shift effect that substitutes your ability to lift/break things.It's the same thing you know, you just flavor it differently. But you would need at least 2 or three rituals to emulate that power, something impractical.
The point of thaumaturgy is to be able to cast spells. I would definitely not allow you to use thaumaturgy as an "I don't need to buy any other power" thing.Indeed, I was talking about temporary powers. Say I want the ability to fly. You cast the appropriate ritual (air riding, gravity manipulation, whatever) and add shifts for duration to last a few days. The ability to fly would only last as long as I kept fueling the ritual every week.
I'm pretty lenient when it comes to allowing temporary powers, usually. I'll even allow buying them for free tags, if that free tag is something that fits the power you want to take (no, not all aspects are created equal here). If you have a half decent justification for it, and you can pay for it, go nuts. But there are 2 caveats to this. First, you get to take a new power once as a temporary power. If you want to use that power more than once, you are going to have to buy it permanently. Second, if your character concept is "guy who can switch out powers", the temporary power rule is not the one I am going to use. That's what modular abilities is for. And even with modular abilities, I will not let you just do anything, you'll still need an explanation for every power you take.
TANSTAAFLI don't expect anything. I wanted to know what it CAN give me.
You get what you pay for. Thaumaturgy is already ridiculously strong, and it's arguably the best 3 Refresh power out there. Expecting it to give you more is somewhat unreasonable.
The temporary power rules (including the cost of fate points) can be found on page 92 in "Your Story". The ritual itself has nothing to do with it, other than providing the narrative justification for the temporary power. You could just as well bargain with a Sidhe so she will grant you superhuman strength, but you would still have to pay the price in terms of fate points. Or your justification for a speed power could be being hit by lightning. You would still have to pay.Oh. I wasn't using the temporary power of the rules. It was a figure of speech. I mean it as in "it goes away when the ritual ends"
Magic can duplicate effects of powers, I'm not arguing that. If you need to move a giant boulder to get into a cave, you can do a thaumaturgy ritual with a complexity equal to the difficulty someone with strength would have to face. You can even narrate it as boosting your strength to get the boulder out of the way. You are getting the effect of strength, being able to shove that boulder out of the way, but that doesn't mean you are taking strength as a temporary power. There's a difference.
Regarding the free tag for a power. If someone wanted to buy wings and put enough duration (say for one lifetime), I'd only allow the free tag once. In every scene thereafter, they'd have to pay the FP's.By prerogative, if you cast a ritual to duplicate a power, you fuel with consequences, declarations etc. So it's not free. You still have to cast it every time. And I don't understand what you mean with "buy wings and put duration". Do you buy it when you do a ritual?
If they wanted it to be "free", then they'd have to buy the power.
The answer to that, then, is doing small rituals over and over again to get the tag more often but that becomes a pain. I suppose they could build multiple tags into the same ritual...but I'd have them put duration on each tag so the complexity would get expensive fast.
Oh. I wasn't using the temporary power of the rules. It was a figure of speech. I mean it as in "it goes away when the ritual ends"
I don't expect anything. I wanted to know what it CAN give me.The temporary power rules are what it can give you. Don't underestimate it, it is a lot. If you want to make up new rules to make thaumaturgy more powerful, that's totally fine, but it isn't something anyone here can really give you an answer to anymore.
By prerogative, if you cast a ritual to duplicate a power, you fuel with consequences, declarations etc. So it's not free. You still have to cast it every time. And I don't understand what you mean with "buy wings and put duration". Do you buy it when you do a ritual?Again, Taran is coming from the temporary power rules perspective. Under those rules, you would have to pay a fate point or tag for every scene you have the power. If you want to build that up to a lifetime worth of tags, that's going to be a pretty powerful ritual, more than most characters can realistically pull off.
Now having the spellcasting ability means you can do more with your spells than just access a few power. But it can still be a justification to access them.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking actually. Treat a power that originates from a thau ritual as a tag that you invoked for effect.
Well, that's how it's supposed to work. You tag for effect and it lasts for 1 scene. But the point is this: some GM's don't allow the free tag and, even if you allow it, you only get the tag once. So having a "permanent" power that comes from thaum (ie: having a ritual with a duration of "one life-time" )is going to end up costing lots of FP's because, every time you invoke for effect after the first time, it will cost 1 fp/refresh of power bought.Got it.
In the end, it's cheaper to buy the power and say you got it via Thaumaturgy. It's one of the ways you can justify having a toughness/speed/strength power without being a scion or changeling or Emissary of Power. You can be a regular human Wizard with Wings.That's the fun part ;D
You can't really just choose powers willy-nilly. You should have some in-game justification for getting new powers and Thaumaturgy is one of those ways.
Taran, that's a good way to do it. However, I have two questions.
-The rules distinguish mundane from magical knowledge with Scholarship and Lore. In the same spirit, shouldn't golems be differentiated at Lore instead of Craftmanship, since they are not mundane creations. The skill craftmanship gave me the notion that it was used at everyday things (computers, doors, walls, etc.)
-Would a thau crafting specialisation have an effect to it, especially if it was called (thematic) golemomancy? Make it better, more competent, stay longer?
Good luck finding any DM who will let that fly. Most will only allow you to generate effects measurable in shifts. E.g. instead of giving you Inhuman Strength for a duration, you will have an X shift effect that substitutes your ability to lift/break things.
If you do find someone who will allow you actual power emulation without paying, let me know. It'll be wizard abuse time! :D
What if you power it for 1 year?
Is it still free?
Yes, it can be dispelled, but how often are you going to run into another wizard that will dispel it?
Adventure 1: I do a ritual for Inhuman Strength: duration 1 year.
Adventure 2: I do a ritual for Inhuman recovery: duration 1 year.
Adventure 3: I do a ritual for inhuman toughness: duration 1 year.
etc...
The difference between 1 year and 1 day shouldn't really make a difference since they use the same methods.
But now you're house-ruling to keep it balanced.
The rain shorting it out would be a compel.
The big thing would be thresholds. If you're going to allow it, you should treat each newly gotten power as it's own spell
So a threshold 2 isn't going to lower your total pool of powers, each spell would be its own pool of powers reduced by the threshold. Maybe powers reduced below 0 zare permanently destroyed.
How often do thresholds come into play in your games?