ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on January 11, 2018, 03:21:59 AM
-
I'm going to devote this thread to people who want to try to flesh out some of their ideas. Although It is possible to disprove theories it is often difficult to do so in general. So if you would like to put an idea out you have been working on and try to find if it has holes in it just add your theory and participate in the discussion.
My theory I'll put forward is my favorite Murphy=Mab. It requires time travel but the biggest hole really comes from woj that mab and titania are 'actual' twin sisters. And this came in response to a question about the biological relationships of ... so, aside from this woj and that Murphy would have, knowing her past history, still named her children maeve and Marissa. And, she would have known about an upcoming contamination of maeve but despite all of her power was unable to stop nemesis getting to her.
So can you think of anything within book and not woj that prohibits ttmurphy from becoming mab, or that makes it very unlikely.
I guess the point about how difficult it is to change the past, etc is one huge point against but of course we will have a tt book so that is a point in favor.
This thread isn't a Murphy/mab thread. It is a disproof thread so others pose similar questions for their theory or idea.
-
if anyone thinks they can disprove any of my idea's feel free to port them over.. but i'll keep the kids gloves on the counter for this one lol. Not saying I know them to be correct, I know from statistics I can't always be, but i'll swing it like I believe it :)
-
One thing that would be funny if TTMurphy was Mab is that Mab was unable to kill Maeve, so she had her past self kill Maeve.
-
Murphy has no magic. If that is not enough you really have to sequence their DNA.
-
Murphy has no magic. If that is not enough you really have to sequence their DNA.
Is magic a requirement to take up that kind of Mantle? I doubt it.
-
Is magic a requirement to take up that kind of Mantle? I doubt it.
You must have enough spiritual space for it, woj cited as one of the reasons Harry did not get the lady mantle, no room left for it.
Mark that one of the things Lea did with Molly is letting her handle more and more magic, making room.
Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).
-
You must have enough spiritual space for it, woj cited as one of the reasons Harry did not get the lady mantle, no room left for it.
Mark that one of the things Lea did with Molly is letting her handle more and more magic, making room.
Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).
Eh, there was never any indication that Lily had magical abilities prior to gaining the mantle, and I want to say there were some references in Cold Case about how a Lady with prior magical training wasnt common (but I could be mixing it with the Knighthood statements to that regard).
-
One thing that would be funny if TTMurphy was Mab is that Mab was unable to kill Maeve, so she had her past self kill Maeve.
Yeah, I mentioned that before too. And yes, it would be funny.
See Murphy/Mab Ironies
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50304.msg2291717.html#msg2291717
Karrin’s hands flew out from behind her back in a shower of broken chips of black ice. She tore her little holdout gun from a concealed ankle holster.
“No!” I shouted.
Two shots rang out, almost simultaneously.Something hissed spitefully past my ear.
A neat, round black hole appeared just to the side of Maeve’s nose, at the fine line of her cheekbone.
Maeve blinked twice. Her face fell into what was almost precisely the same expression of confusion Lily’s had. A trickle of blood ran from the hole.
Mab moved so quickly that I literally never saw it. The gun was suddenly, simply gone from my hand and was being pushed into my face—in exactly the same spot where Maeve had been shot.
“Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?”
Mab did not turn around. When she spoke, her voice had something in it I had never heard there before and never heard again—uncertainty. Vulnerability.
“I was mortal once, you know,” she said, very quietly.
But, Murphy, a mortal, had killed Maeve.
-
Murphy has no magic. If that is not enough you really have to sequence their DNA.
Molly had to be rehabbed because she was too distant from her faerie roots and therefore wasn't an appropriate vessel of faerie. Who is to say Murphy doesn't have faerie roots too and isn't being rehabbed also. We know Murphy is training with Einherjaren whose leader wears a faerie mask whose follower offered Murphy a job with a passing similarity to one of a valkyrie. That isn't even to mention the fact that an archangel spoke through her at Changes where a great many powers were released at a special conjunction of power. Murphy has defeated a great number of faeries in combat, and she did kill a Winter Lady on Halloween.
Lily and many faerie changelings have no magic until they choose faerie and get their mantle. So, Murphy doesn't need magic in order to get a mantle. She just needs to get a mantle and the magic springs from it.
-
Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).
One thing that stood out to me is that Maeve really never pays much attention to Murphy who is covered in dirt. Jim mentions Maeve having to uncover them before she identifies the person and once she gets to Sarissa she stops there. What is funny is that she mentions that Mab, the Queen of Air and Darkness, would never resort to dirtying herself to bypass the Demonreach's ward all the while with Murphy dirtied up standing right there. In my recollection of the events on Demonreach, Maeve doesn't pay Murphy much attention except that she was grabbed to be used as bait and the generic ice handcuffs that I believe was placed on everyone.
After reviewing the excerpt of Skin Game, it appears that Maeve at least knows the dirtied up figure with "blue eyes reddened," apparently because of the mud, is at least "feisty" something we know has been associated with Murphy many times throughout the books. I don't know for a fact that Maeve knew Murphy was in fact there, but I think it would be fairly safe to assume so but still.
To be fair to Ms. Duck's theory, Molly also stands there unseen dirtied up too.
-
Also worth noting that in the DV it's not Binary: *Everyone* has some miniscule amount of magic, just the vast majority dont have enough to ever be useful, even with training.
-
But, Murphy, a mortal, had killed Maeve.
On Halloween, everyone is mortal.
-
That was only part of the point.
The main point is that typically on Halloween immortals (mortals too see darkhallow) gain power by defeating others (immortal or not) in part or in full. What I'm suggesting is the possibility that Murphy, though she didn't get the Winter Lady mantle, did get some nonzero amount of power, influence, acknowledgement etc that came from this killing.
Likewise, a similar argument could be made that Harry's allies at Chichen Itza and the members of the Grey acquired some nonzero power with the defeat of the Red Court.
-
That was only part of the point.
The main point is that typically on Halloween immortals (mortals too see darkhallow) gain power by defeating others (immortal or not) in part or in full. What I'm suggesting is the possibility that Murphy, though she didn't get the Winter Lady mantle, did get some nonzero amount of power, influence, acknowledgement etc that came from this killing.
I dont think that would be the case; that Power that moves during Halloween is (or at least sure seems to be by all description) a literal, net-zero sort of thing where one party gains power by Taking it from another. The Darkhallow is literally Eating energy to make it part of yourself. Halloween was only needed to allow a large enough chunk to reach 'critical mass' and jump the line between Mortal and Immortal, which is why the "mini-Darkhallow" that hag was doing in the comics did not require Halloween.
-
This nonzero vs netzero argument isn't entirely apples and apples.
I'm suggesting that Maeve lost some nonzero amount of power that went to Murphy aside from the Winter Lady mantle. That power still would be netzero. Even if there was a zero amount of power that went to Murphy from Maeve, I'd argue she did gain influence, acknowledgement which is part of power in nevernever with her killing of Maeve. One has to wonder what Mab thought about it being she couldn't quite do the deed herself.
On the note of Mab, I was thinking back to when Mab took the bullet out of Mac at the end of Cold Days. I coupled it with the short story Even Hand where Gard gives Marcone a rune engraved bullet that took out a historical figure to be used against the Fomor Lord. Well, I'd imagine that Mab wanted this bullet and got it via some sort of exchange her pulling out the bullet so that Mac could heal with an intention of using a metaphysically laced bullet to take out something bigger. Now, imagine if Griffyn is right that Mac is a transubstantiated Raphael. He was just gut shot with a bullet, I would think that the bullet would/could be fashioned into something greater like Gard did with her bullet.
-
Which do you guys think is more likely TTMurphy becoming our Mab via time travel or Molly becoming Mab via time travel? And, when I say time travel with regard to Mab, I'm talking about either one going back 1000+ years to ascend to become OUR Mab.
-
Which do you guys think is more likely TTMurphy becoming our Mab via time travel or Molly becoming Mab via time travel? And, when I say time travel with regard to Mab, I'm talking about either going back 1000+ years to ascend to become OUR Mab.
I don't think either of them are likely, but if I had a gun to my head, I'd pick Molly, because she's already in a position to ascend.
-
Eh, there was never any indication that Lily had magical abilities prior to gaining the mantle, and I want to say there were some references in Cold Case about how a Lady with prior magical training wasnt common (but I could be mixing it with the Knighthood statements to that regard).
Lily was a changeling, that is magic.
-
Arjan is pointing out certain hoops that have to be jumped through in order for the Murphy/Mab theory to work. So, it isn't so much as disproof as an argument that has to be considered and appropriately addressed.
I do though allow for a non-magic user to gain access to a mantle. And we don't know if Murphy has changeling roots somewhere down her family line. And, we don't know for sure that Mab had no affect on who the winter lady mantle went to.
Can Mab affect who gets the Winter Lady mantle? I suspect so given Titania saying the Summer Lady mantle didn't go to one of her choosing.
-
Too bad there isn't something in the text about Mab: and now that I think about it Titania, being shorter than the average fae, because then I think you might have something. However, that might not be a real clue either because I believe Mab can be any height she wants to be. I do remember that Lea is taller than Mab, though I can't remember what book I read that in.
If Mab = anyone else, I have to go with Ms. Duck's theory of Mab = Molly, though I don't really buy that one either.
-
Arjan is pointing out certain hoops that have to be jumped through in order for the Murphy/Mab theory to work. So, it isn't so much as disproof as an argument that has to be considered and appropriately addressed.
I do though allow for a non-magic user to gain access to a mantle. And we don't know if Murphy has changeling roots somewhere down her family line. And, we don't know for sure that Mab had no affect on who the winter lady mantle went to.
Can Mab affect who gets the Winter Lady mantle? I suspect so given Titania saying the Summer Lady mantle didn't go to one of her choosing.
I think the only thing she can do is groom suitable candidates and then bring them at the right place and time to be considered by the mantle as a suitable host. So keep a suitable candidate nearby at halloween.
Of course she can just kill the Lady at the stone table and have the replacement rady.
-
At the end of ghost story, Mab tells Harry that he will never be her ally in his heart. She also tells him that she will never trust him.
Mab can't lie, so if she is also Murphy, that would mean that Murphy will never trust Harry and that Mab believes Harry doesn't truly view Murphy as an ally.
-
At the end of ghost story, Mab tells Harry that he will never be her ally in his heart. She also tells him that she will never trust him.
Mab can't lie, so if she is also Murphy, that would mean that Murphy will never trust Harry and that Mab believes Harry doesn't truly view Murphy as an ally.
I dont know, those statements seem like they're restricted to the Future Case. I mean, you likely could have said a similar thing about Susan in Changes but that would not have impacted or negated what had gone before (not trying to start a susan tangent, it's just the first example I came up with). So long as Murphy came before Mab, that could still be a true statement from Mab's timeline (which every keeps saying is a stupid mortal construct anyway).
-
I dont know, those statements seem like they're restricted to the Future Case. I mean, you likely could have said a similar thing about Susan in Changes but that would not have impacted or negated what had gone before (not trying to start a susan tangent, it's just the first example I came up with). So long as Murphy came before Mab, that could still be a true statement from Mab's timeline (which every keeps saying is a stupid mortal construct anyway).
Harry clearly relies upon Murphy as an ally in both Cold Days and Skin Game. Those are in the future with respect to Mab's comments in GS, and Mab would know that she was Murphy and that Harry, would, in the future, be considering Murphy an ally.
-
Which do you guys think is more likely TTMurphy becoming our Mab via time travel or Molly becoming Mab via time travel?
Neither one is at all likely. You have some fun with your ideas, but I highly doubt that is the story Butcher is telling. Have you ever tried to develop your own stories? With as much energy as you put into this, you could create your own original material and then we could all post theories on a forum for your books.
-
Which do you guys think is more likely TTMurphy becoming our Mab via time travel or Molly becoming Mab via time travel? And, when I say time travel with regard to Mab, I'm talking about either one going back 1000+ years to ascend to become OUR Mab.
Murphy most likely. It would be a time travel story where Murphy gets the Mantle, and Harry has to go back to the future, leaving her there in the past. When he see's present day Mab there will be a moment they share where Harry says something like "I'm going to save you Murph" because he knows there isn't much left of her from what the Mantle had consumed.
-
I like it. It's largely how I saw it finally playing out.
I still feel like that promise between the "two of them being the Titanic full steam straight ahead right into the iceberg" is going to play out near the end with Outsiders, the mantle, their relationship etc.
-
I hate to burst your bubble, but unless you can explain how Murphy or Molly has an identical twin sister that we have somehow never heard about or seen evidence of, neither one can possibly be Mab. WOJ has specifically said Mab and Titania are twin sisters, in the biological sense
-
Cloning.
-
Mitosis?
-
Time-Travel. They're identical twins in that they are genetically the same person, from another timeline. (Incidentally this is why I hate Timetravel theories. You can justify practically anything with enough application of Time-Travel.)
-
Titania is Mab from a mirror mirror world. Insert some time traveling here to make it work.
-
Harry clearly relies upon Murphy as an ally in both Cold Days and Skin Game. Those are in the future with respect to Mab's comments in GS, and Mab would know that she was Murphy and that Harry, would, in the future, be considering Murphy an ally.
In the future with respect to an Objective Timeline only. Any time spent in a previous persona would still be in Mab's Past. In any present where they can interact you'd have to consider them separate entities. And that's ignoring all the paradox and/or butterfly effect issues with Mab living through the same events twice while somehow maintain memory of both.
-
In the future with respect to an Objective Timeline only. Any time spent in a previous persona would still be in Mab's Past. In any present where they can interact you'd have to consider them separate entities. And that's ignoring all the paradox and/or butterfly effect issues with Mab living through the same events twice while somehow maintain memory of both.
I think you are arguing for a subjective timeline, there. Objectively, it would be in the future. Mab would not have lived those stories in her Mab persona yet, which means they are future events of which she has a past memory. Ergo, she would have had past knowledge that she was lying about the future. Also, for the ally portion of the statement, Mab's timeline is irrelevant. She said Harry will never consider her an ally in his heart, which makes Harry's timeline the relevant consideration, and Cold Days and Skin Game were in the future in Harry's timeline.
Now, Mab could have forgotten who she was in her mortal past life, which would make her wrong instead of a liar, but that would require the theory to be at least altered.
-
I hate to burst your bubble, but unless you can explain how Murphy or Molly has an identical twin sister that we have somehow never heard about or seen evidence of, neither one can possibly be Mab. WOJ has specifically said Mab and Titania are twin sisters, in the biological sense
By the rules of the thread, though, we aren't allowed to rely upon WOJ. And also, one of the problems with "disproving" a theory is that JB has claimed he tells lies for a living and stated that Harry is an unreliable narrator. With regard to the twins, you are even left with JB was telling the truth "from a certain point of view." In addition to the cloning and alternate dimension theories, maybe JB meant the original Titania and Mab were actual twins and since the mantel slowly alters all subsequent Queens to take the form and personality of the originals, they are all always "actual twins from a certain point of view."
-
By the rules of the thread, though, we aren't allowed to rely upon WOJ. And also, one of the problems with "disproving" a theory is that JB has claimed he tells lies for a living and stated that Harry is an unreliable narrator. With regard to the twins, you are even left with JB was telling the truth "from a certain point of view." In addition to the cloning and alternate dimension theories, maybe JB meant the original Titania and Mab were actual twins and since the mantel slowly alters all subsequent Queens to take the form and personality of the originals, they are all always "actual twins from a certain point of view."
Corzarkian is correct which is why I imposed the rule regarding disproof coming from the books and not WOJ. You can still include WOJ to argue against but for purposes of disproof I'm wondering if there is something within book that essentially kills the idea. The following quote is the RULE to disprove from the OP.
So can you think of anything within book and not woj that prohibits ttmurphy from becoming mab, or that makes it very unlikely.
I guess I should now ask what would be some hypothetical examples in book which would disprove Murphy=Mab theory. Feel free to fine tune my examples or add to them to be consistent with the book.
Murphy is a man. (not true)
Time travel doesn't exist. (not true)
Time travel into past is impossible (not true)
Or time travel 1000+ years back is impossible (may be a matter of power)
Or if TT 1000+ years back is possible, changing events particularly such a significant event is not. (ditto)
Mantles don't exist. (not true)
Murphy is unable to wear a Mantle.
Murphy is unable to have children.
Mantles don't alter one's appearance. (not true)
A person must have magic to assume a Mantle. (not likely true, I'd say not true)
Alternate realities don't exist (not true)
Paradoxes can't occur from time travel. (they can, but depending on situation could result in twinned universe)
-
At the end of ghost story, Mab tells Harry that he will never be her ally in his heart. She also tells him that she will never trust him.
Mab can't lie, so if she is also Murphy, that would mean that Murphy will never trust Harry and that Mab believes Harry doesn't truly view Murphy as an ally.
I'd argue that that it could be taken a few ways. Faeries usually don't speak a statement with just one meaning, and only one of the meanings need to be true. I'd suggest that Mab is making a statement about Her/Mab's future not about Her/Mab's past + Murphy's future up to Mab present. That might be a bit complicated. Just think of a line in three parts. Past, Middle, Future with respect to Mab. Murphy's history is the Past Segment, prior to becoming Mab. The middle segment begins with Murphy ascending to Mab up until that moment she says those words. And then Future is the segment that she would be commenting upon. So her comment wouldn't be applied to Murphy's past at all or even Mab's past up until that moment.
I guess you are relying upon the words "will never trust him" with regards to a blanket time statement to apply to the entire line. Again I think 'she' Mab/Murphy is distinct from Murphy alone. So in essence, I concur with Quantus who said the following:
In the future with respect to an Objective Timeline only. Any time spent in a previous persona would still be in Mab's Past. In any present where they can interact you'd have to consider them separate entities. And that's ignoring all the paradox and/or butterfly effect issues with Mab living through the same events twice while somehow maintain memory of both.
Now, we also have learned that Mab can be wrong. I think it is safe to assume that she is right up until the moment her identity is revealed to Harry. If it is Murphy, then I think her words and statements get thrown up into the air and we will have to see Harry's "heart" react. It will be then up to him as to her words ringing true or not. I think it should also be noted Mab talks about Harry will "never be her ally in his heart." That alone seems to suggest familiarity between the two, a closeness that really hasn't been explained. We also have Mother Winter calling Mab a 'romantic' which sort of sounds off with Mab not wanting to kill her daughter. Some have wondered if the secret romance was with Harry, which led some to speculate about Mab being Molly though I the used same speculation to support Mab=Murphy.
-
I think it might be helpful to establish an order of events.
Mab's statement about being mortal, to me, means that she was not born into Winter Lady status; she acquired it, presumably alongside Titania's acquisition of her own Mantle. I know we aren't supposed to use WOJ, but WOJ does state that Mab ascended from Winter Lady to Queen. In short, the process was Mortal--> Winter Lady (upon the death of the previous Winter Lady)--> Winter Queen (upon the death of the previous Winter Queen). We know that Mother Winter didn't die, as WOJ states that she is the original, (though Mother Summer isn't) therefore meaning that the Winter Queen died rather than ascending to fill the Mother Winter slot.
We also know from the books that the Queens' Mantles don't pass to the nearest vessel; the Winter Lady swaps Mantles, and the Lady's Mantle shoots over to the nearest one.
Questions raised:
1. Who was the previous Winter Queen?
2. Was that Queen the Original?
3. Who was the previous Winter Lady?
4. Was that Winter Lady the Original?
5. Is Mab biologically the daughter of that Winter Queen, as Maeve was Mab's?
Regardless, this would require Murphy to be physically present at the time the previous Winter Lady or Winter Queen was killed (thereby freeing the Winter Lady's Mantle), and was the closest available vessel for the Winter Lady's Mantle.
Can anyone think of any other questions specific to the order of events?
-
This is a good start on all things Murphy/Mab. I'm going to search it for what you ask. The thread has my comments addressing many issues and links to supported reference materials that delve into Mab, Winter, and such.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50304.msg2291717.html#msg2291717
Serack's "When Winter took over at the Outer Gates"
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880
Mab's history.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50304.msg2292401.html#msg2292401
Fitting Murphy into a Mab ascension via Lady mantle.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50304.msg2293072.html#msg2293072
So, Murphy would be Winter Lady, for how long I don't know (WOJ our Mab as a Winter Lady chose Lea to be her handmaiden). Her appearance would have to already begun to shift. And, then some sudden set of events that aligned with the last time things got awful in the wizarding world, it ended with at least both Mab and Titania dying, who else we don't know, which allowed our Mab, our Titania to assume the mantle of Queen roughly around the time of the Battle of Hastings. Around that time, Mab and Titania stop speaking. Give us 1000+ years and I don't think we can assume we would be able to identify Murphy that had been Mab for 1000+ years is our Murphy. They'd look totally different. So, that is one thing my theory counts on, a mask for Queen Mab that camouflages her identity, which will stun us when it is revealed. This though is complicated further by requiring Murphy's children to have different genetics due to this change. That could be supported by faerie genetics though with changelings looking sorta like their faerie parents.
In short:
1) We don't know who the prior Mab was to our Mab, we do know however that she was killed around 1066 along with Titania. This event triggered our Mab and our Titania's ascension. It also led them to be very wary about Harry, whether because he is a starborne or other reason, they have drawn a similarity between him and whoever caused an event then that led to significant disruption in faerie.
2) That queen wasn't likely the original. We do know though that the original set of queens, (mothers, queens, and ladies) participated in an rite to establish their original base of power using the stone table.
3) We don't know who the prior Winter Lady was. Should Murphy have indeed inserted herself as Lady, that Lady would need to die and at a place of a conjunction like at the stone table or on Halloween such that the mantle would be passed and the immortal Lady be not so immortal. This wouldn't require Murphy to actually kill the Lady, that would still be possible, but she'd just need to be close in proximity and higher up on the priority list for the mantle than anyone else.
4) Not likely, the Winter Lady's are expendable and change fairly often.
5) Unknown. We don't know anything much about the prior Mab and her children. We do know that our Mab finally gets two weapons in her hands: Morgana LeFey's dagger and Medea's athame. This may hint that one or both may have become Winter Queens or Ladies at one time or another.
-
Two other things. Titania tells Harry in CD that Mab is her sister. While that is less restrictive than twin, it seems highly unlikely that Murphy's sister will time travel with her.
Also, Murphy was closer to Maeve than Molly, which means Murphy is not at that time a potential vessel, adding another hurdle to overcome for the theory.
-
Two other things. Titania tells Harry in CD that Mab is her sister. While that is less restrictive than twin, it seems highly unlikely that Murphy's sister will time travel with her.
Also, Murphy was closer to Maeve than Molly, which means Murphy is not at that time a potential vessel, adding another hurdle to overcome for the theory.
Agreed.
On the Murphy sister bit though, I have long speculated that Murphy's family reunion will get transported into the past. Something like how Milwaukee vanishes in the Unseelie Incursion in 1994 and is replaced by lands untouched by civilization. I've liked the idea that Mother Murphy somehow becomes Mother Winter. I know it's even more ludicrous but it puts a smile on my face thinking about it. That would require multiple time travel events with some going much further back in time than others. Actually some, when I posed the theory, suggested that Mother Murphy would be a better candidate for Mother Summer. That would actually work better in the family reunion theory going into the past with the Mother Summer abdicating at the death of the previous Winter and Summer Queens and then Mother Murphy somehow acquiring the Mother mantle with a screwed up set of succession rules where multiple mantles are up for grabs at essentially the same point in time. Since another theory ties in with this one, I'll state it here. I have Mrs. Spunklecrief as being the former abdicated Mother Summer whose last 'job' was to oversee Harry and play a behind the scenes role in protecting reality as a landlord. Her deafness and speech as a result was a front with perhaps hints laced in. WOJ says she 'finally retired' to Florida.
Also, Murphy was closer to Maeve than Molly, which means Murphy is not at that time a potential vessel, adding another hurdle to overcome for the theory.
As I said before I agree with this with the caveat that Mab didn't interfere with the mantle and succession. The text tends to suggest that Maeve didn't see another appropriate vessel within Demonreach's ward, or if there was Mab couldn't count on it being uncompromised by nemesis. If Mab could interfere and prevented the vessel from going to Murphy, then she could be a potential vessel at the time. I really don't like this though because if Mab=Murphy, there needs to be very little interaction between Murphy and Mab to minimize temporal paradoxes. I could take the view that she is a potential vessel just not as high on the priority list as Molly at that time. I doubt it is solely 'nearest' vessel. I mean if a much better candidate is one inch further from the mantle than a poor prospect I could imagine there being some sentience within the mantle whereby it could overrule the strict proximity rule.
-
New Theory
Simon Petrovitch = Cowl
-
New Theory
Simon Petrovitch = Cowl
His outsider animated corpse or a future cowl who traveled to the past to die as simon?
-
Or is there a Mirrored Reality Simon that faked his death in this reality like how -Harry uses Harrys to fake his.
-
I think the use of time travel will be more subtle, like a butterfly effect. One choice made at just the right or wrong moment that causes a split in realities. Any huge event involving dozens of people would cause chaos on a level that would rip reality asunder, it would also be trite from a story telling perspective. I could see Harry having to patch a rent in reality due to time travel. In the vein of, Marty McFly has to stop Biff from screwing everything up but some things turn out different because of the events that took place.
-
Well, there are natural everyday occurrences it seems of 'one choice' at just the right or wrong moment causing splits in realities that is Jim's mortal free will creating reality. I see what you mean though with it being combined with time travel to change history. The big events would be something like where one goes back in time to kill your grandfather and succeeding whereby you actually cause a twinned universe to exist whereby you never occurred. That would be a huge change resulting from a time travel event. I'm sure there would be other instances more significant than that where a twinned universe would spawn so there is HUGE potential for time travel to cause DRAMATIC changes but in spinning off a new 'twinned' universe.
-
Ok, I was thinking about my side theories like Marcone being descended from Murphy and Harry, or the other wag that Harry's fAther is either nicodemus redeemed/reborn or descended from him.
So, I was wondering about the temporal complications of having a child participate and influence events in their parents lives but with some time travel origin in his backstory. I realize it's a wag that doesn't have much of a following nor many merits, but for the sake of discussion and the fact we have no new book to talk about for another year would there be timeline restrictions placed on some of these interactions. Would the universe simply enforce these restrictions via inertia.
How would you go about writing a story where marcone descends from Murphy and Harry but within the context of this book and the rules that have been set forth so far.
You may make use of time travel, alternate reality, mantles, paradox, nevernever, ...
And/Or then proceed to disprove marcone descends from Harry and Murphy using the book. I'll try to see if there are holes that need to be plugged or just abandoned.
Likewise, try to create or think of a story where a redeemed nicodemus gets a second chance similar to Harry because the other side cheated and big gets a different body with a second chance at life as one Malcolm dresden. You can use time travel, alternate realities, second chances, balancing of scales, you are a soul you have a body, ...
Then proceed to disprove the theory with text.
-
His outsider animated corpse or a future cowl who traveled to the past to die as simon?
I'm pretty sure Harry describes Cowl's magic as Mortal.
Also, when Harry mentions to Kumori that Cowl would have Harry's death curse to contend with, she replies that He's dealt with death curses before. I'm thinking at Archangel, some of his folks there realized he was responsible and threw their curses at him. Thus requiring him to wear the Cowl, and it would explain how he was so strong and out of Harry's league.
-
I think the main reason for the Cowl as Jim has said in WOJ is that you just don't go around giving your identity away that easily. It's part of the wizard toolbox of keeping secrets even though there are people who see through the cowl. You just don't make it easy for everyone to know.
-
I think you are arguing for a subjective timeline, there. Objectively, it would be in the future. Mab would not have lived those stories in her Mab persona yet, which means they are future events of which she has a past memory. Ergo, she would have had past knowledge that she was lying about the future. Also, for the ally portion of the statement, Mab's timeline is irrelevant. She said Harry will never consider her an ally in his heart, which makes Harry's timeline the relevant consideration, and Cold Days and Skin Game were in the future in Harry's timeline.
Now, Mab could have forgotten who she was in her mortal past life, which would make her wrong instead of a liar, but that would require the theory to be at least altered.
I dont think that would be how it would work. Having the Memory of the event does not make her (Fae-technically) the one who experienced it, especially for a race that can steal memories from you as a form of payment. By Fae logic, "Mab" is not "Murphy", even if by some series of events Murphy were to become the host of the Queen Mantle. This is teh same as how Vadderung and Kringle are entirely different beings that happen to reside in the same body. So even if, subjectively, Mab knows that there is a transition in Murphy's future that make her the host of the Winter Queen mantle, there is no point in time where The Winter Queen is an ally of Harry the way Murphy was/is/will be.
-
I'm pretty sure Harry describes Cowl's magic as Mortal.
Also, when Harry mentions to Kumori that Cowl would have Harry's death curse to contend with, she replies that He's dealt with death curses before. I'm thinking at Archangel, some of his folks there realized he was responsible and threw their curses at him. Thus requiring him to wear the Cowl, and it would explain how he was so strong and out of Harry's league.
But then he was still alive. You see in the original timeline simon did survive, the vampire attack failed and the outsiders could not get through that is why Cowl, who at that time was totally taken over by his outsider and was going to die, traveled to the past to kill Simon and blow things up.
-
But then he was still alive. You see in the original timeline simon did survive, the vampire attack failed and the outsiders could not get through that is why Cowl, who at that time was totally taken over by his outsider and was going to die, traveled to the past to kill Simon and blow things up.
Mwwaahahahaha! You forget plenty of necessarily mortal Practitioners who have inhuman aura's and what not. His reference to 'mortal magic' there was technically a distinction towards the other necromancers, whom we know to be 'human' but obviously do not use human magic. Technically, he could be an immortal possessing of Mortal Magic or some such.
-
Mwwaahahahaha! You forget plenty of necessarily mortal Practitioners who have inhuman aura's and what not. His reference to 'mortal magic' there was technically a distinction towards the other necromancers, whom we know to be 'human' but obviously do not use human magic. Technically, he could be an immortal possessing of Mortal Magic or some such.
Cowl, just like Harry, could probably use both. Until he died that is. His corpse used outsider magic.
-
Cowl, just like Harry, could probably use both. Until he died that is. His corpse used outsider magic.
I disagree entirely.
For the TT theory I have here Kumori revived him to his current state the same way she did to the thug in the Alley. In a very circular way it's were she learned to do that trick.
I think in Undeath he can use both as well, just because of who he is/what he believes.
But more specifically i'd say his is different because even while Harnessing the Black he holds on to it through his belief in regular magic as it is. Harry iirc even makes a parallel between the feel of his own tainted with dark magic. Human Magic, like humanity itself should be just as 'alloyed' in it's make up, though the threat of going bonkers and being replaced by something inhuman marginalizes that fact.
-
This has been copied from the Queen Succession Rules thread. It is about an exception with the Knight being allowed to have sex and potentially conceive a child with the Lady bypassing the defense mechanism. The Lady mantle, having reviewed the exact words Mab has stated regarding when the mantle would destroy itself, is incompatible with being a 'mother.' This incompatibility equates with its destruction. And therefore the destruction of the mantle hinges upon the definition of mother most likely being "a woman who gives birth. The following comments followed.
Alright, this is taking me down a similar line of thinking. I'll probably copy this over to another thread as it applies there also.
Let's postulate that the WK can have sex with the Lady bypassing the defenses. And, that the Lady won't become Queen until she gives birth. And that if she gives birth, thereby becoming a mother, while wielding the Lady mantle, she will have destroyed that mantle absent the Queen mantle.
Now, i'm going to borrow some of your argument regarding the exception the Knight poses. For my purposes with regard to the Murphy/Mab theory coupled with Murphy pregnant with Marcone Wag, I'd venture that WK Harry having impregnated Murphy prior to her TT will 1) provide a beacon for the Lady mantle, 2) bypass defense restriction within Lady mantle thereby allowing Murphy to attract the Lady mantle while being pregnant.
-
Looking around Google. I came across this:
http://mythara.wikia.com/wiki/Fae
Don't know much about this; but, someone might find it useful.
-
Okay, just got done with DB again, and the description Harry gives Cowl whiles he's calling down the DH said he had outstretched arms that were covered in old scars.
Just another clue for us to look for on other characters.
-
Yep, and we know Kumori is caucasian per ambulance tech when she drew back her hood to resuscitate the dead/near dead guy in DB.
We also know that Cowl had Vittoro use runed copper circlet (something like it) to summon/speak with Cowl's apparition. Harry viewed it with Little Chicago's help. Cowl caught on and sent a deadly spike of energy Harry's way.
-
Yep, and we know Kumori is caucasian per ambulance tech when she drew back her hood to resuscitate the dead/near dead guy in DB.
We also know that Cowl had Vittoro use runed copper circlet (something like it) to summon/speak with Cowl's apparition. Harry viewed it with Little Chicago's help. Cowl caught on and sent a deadly spike of energy Harry's way.
Yup, yup. And short enough to just be able to grab Harry's hair and draw his head back to put a knife to his throat.
-
Yeah, Kumori was stretching for that one.
-
You must have enough spiritual space for it, woj cited as one of the reasons Harry did not get the lady mantle, no room left for it.
Mark that one of the things Lea did with Molly is letting her handle more and more magic, making room.
Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).
Agreed, plus she was as close as Molly when the mantle was transferred and the mantle goes to the next suitable candidate, didn't go to Murphy, went to Molly.. In my view making Murphy eventually Mab defeats the main reason for which her fans claim to love her, Murphy the ordinary vanilla human... Yes, she is smart, brave, and a good shot, but that doesn't make her a candidate for eventually becoming the Queen of Winter. I also think she'd make a terrible Lady because of her views, and Mab would find a way for her to die.
-
Mab defeats the main reason for which her fans claim to love her, Murphy the ordinary vanilla human...
Don't restrict me into that position.
-
Don't restrict me into that position.
I am not, just stating the biggest justification for her character by most of her fans, the vanilla human foil for Harry, especially when Michael isn't around.
-
I also think she'd make a terrible Lady because of her views, and Mab would find a way for her to die.
Which views are those?
-
Agreed, plus she was as close as Molly when the mantle was transferred and the mantle goes to the next suitable candidate, didn't go to Murphy, went to Molly.. In my view making Murphy eventually Mab defeats the main reason for which her fans claim to love her, Murphy the ordinary vanilla human... Yes, she is smart, brave, and a good shot, but that doesn't make her a candidate for eventually becoming the Queen of Winter. I also think she'd make a terrible Lady because of her views, and Mab would find a way for her to die.
She would make a fine lady as soon as she understood the necessity of her function and she dedicated herself to it. A far better lady than both Maeve and Lilly anyway. If she had the spiritual space to harbour the mantle that is.