Disproof

[raidem]

I'm going to devote this thread to people who want to try to flesh out some of their ideas. Although It is possible to disprove theories it is often difficult to do so in general.  So if you would like to put an idea out you have been working on and try to find if it has holes in it just add your theory and participate in the discussion.

My theory I'll put forward is my favorite Murphy=Mab.  It requires time travel but the biggest hole really comes from woj that mab and titania are 'actual' twin sisters. And this came in response to a question about the biological relationships of ...  so, aside from this woj and that Murphy would have, knowing her past history, still named her children maeve and Marissa. And, she would have known about an upcoming contamination of maeve but despite all of her power was unable to stop nemesis getting to her.

So can you think of anything within book and not woj that prohibits ttmurphy from becoming mab, or that makes it very unlikely.

I guess the point about how difficult it is to change the past, etc is one huge point against but of course we will have a tt book so that is a point in favor. 

This thread isn't a Murphy/mab thread.  It is a disproof thread so others pose similar questions for their theory or idea.

[jonas]

if anyone thinks they can disprove any of my idea's feel free to port them over.. but i'll keep the kids gloves on the counter for this one lol. Not saying I know them to be correct, I know from statistics I can't always be, but i'll swing it like I believe it

[groinkick]

One thing that would be funny if TTMurphy was Mab is that Mab was unable to kill Maeve, so she had her past self kill Maeve.

[Arjan]

Murphy has no magic. If that is not enough you really have to sequence their DNA.

[groinkick]

Murphy has no magic. If that is not enough you really have to sequence their DNA.

Is magic a requirement to take up that kind of Mantle?  I doubt it.

[Arjan]

Is magic a requirement to take up that kind of Mantle?  I doubt it.

You must have enough spiritual space for it, woj cited as one of the reasons Harry did not get the lady mantle, no room left for it.
Mark that one of the things Lea did with Molly is letting her handle more and more magic, making room.

Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).

[Quantus]

You must have enough spiritual space for it, woj cited as one of the reasons Harry did not get the lady mantle, no room left for it.
Mark that one of the things Lea did with Molly is letting her handle more and more magic, making room.

Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).

Eh, there was never any indication that Lily had magical abilities prior to gaining the mantle, and I want to say there were some references in Cold Case about how a Lady with prior magical training wasnt common (but I could be mixing it with the Knighthood statements to that regard). 

[raidem]

One thing that would be funny if TTMurphy was Mab is that Mab was unable to kill Maeve, so she had her past self kill Maeve.

Yeah, I mentioned that before too.  And yes, it would be funny.

See Murphy/Mab Ironies
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50304.msg2291717.html#msg2291717

Karrin’s hands flew out from behind her back in a shower of broken chips of black ice. She tore her little holdout gun from a concealed ankle holster.
“No!” I shouted.
Two shots rang out, almost simultaneously.Something hissed spitefully past my ear.
A neat, round black hole appeared just to the side of Maeve’s nose, at the fine line of her cheekbone.
Maeve blinked twice. Her face fell into what was almost precisely the same expression of confusion Lily’s had. A trickle of blood ran from the hole.

Mab moved so quickly that I literally never saw it. The gun was suddenly, simply gone from my hand and was being pushed into my face—in exactly the same spot where Maeve had been shot.

“Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?”
Mab did not turn around. When she spoke, her voice had something in it I had never heard there before and never heard again—uncertainty. Vulnerability.
“I was mortal once, you know,” she said, very quietly.

But, Murphy, a mortal, had killed Maeve.

[raidem]

Murphy has no magic. If that is not enough you really have to sequence their DNA.

Molly had to be rehabbed because she was too distant from her faerie roots and therefore wasn't an appropriate vessel of faerie.  Who is to say Murphy doesn't have faerie roots too and isn't being rehabbed also.  We know Murphy is training with Einherjaren whose leader wears a faerie mask whose follower offered Murphy a job with a passing similarity to one of a valkyrie. That isn't even to mention the fact that an archangel spoke through her at Changes where a great many powers were released at a special conjunction of power.  Murphy has defeated a great number of faeries in combat, and she did kill a Winter Lady on Halloween.

Lily and many faerie changelings have no magic until they choose faerie and get their mantle.  So, Murphy doesn't need magic in order to get a mantle.  She just needs to get a mantle and the magic springs from it.

[raidem]

Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).

One thing that stood out to me is that Maeve really never pays much attention to Murphy who is covered in dirt.  Jim mentions Maeve having to uncover them before she identifies the person and once she gets to Sarissa she stops there.  What is funny is that she mentions that Mab, the Queen of Air and Darkness, would never resort to dirtying herself to bypass the Demonreach's ward all the while with Murphy dirtied up standing right there.  In my recollection of the events on Demonreach, Maeve doesn't pay Murphy much attention except that she was grabbed to be used as bait and the generic ice handcuffs that I believe was placed on everyone.

After reviewing the excerpt of Skin Game, it appears that Maeve at least knows the dirtied up figure with "blue eyes reddened," apparently because of the mud, is at least "feisty" something we know has been associated with Murphy many times throughout the books.  I don't know for a fact that Maeve knew Murphy was in fact there, but I think it would be fairly safe to assume so but still.

To be fair to Ms. Duck's theory, Molly also stands there unseen dirtied up too.

[Quantus]

Also worth noting that in the DV it's not Binary:  *Everyone* has some miniscule amount of magic, just the vast majority dont have enough to ever be useful, even with training. 

[RobReece]

But, Murphy, a mortal, had killed Maeve.

On Halloween, everyone is mortal.

[raidem]

That was only part of the point. 

The main point is that typically on Halloween immortals (mortals too see darkhallow) gain power by defeating others (immortal or not) in part or in full.  What I'm suggesting is the possibility that Murphy, though she didn't get the Winter Lady mantle, did get some nonzero amount of power, influence, acknowledgement etc that came from this killing.

Likewise, a similar argument could be made that Harry's allies at Chichen Itza and the members of the Grey acquired some nonzero power with the defeat of the Red Court. 

[Quantus]

That was only part of the point. 

The main point is that typically on Halloween immortals (mortals too see darkhallow) gain power by defeating others (immortal or not) in part or in full.  What I'm suggesting is the possibility that Murphy, though she didn't get the Winter Lady mantle, did get some nonzero amount of power, influence, acknowledgement etc that came from this killing.

I dont think that would be the case; that Power that moves during Halloween is (or at least sure seems to be by all description) a literal, net-zero sort of thing where one party gains power by Taking it from another. The Darkhallow is literally Eating energy to make it part of yourself.   Halloween was only needed to allow a large enough chunk to reach 'critical mass' and jump the line between Mortal and Immortal, which is why the "mini-Darkhallow" that hag was doing in the comics did not require Halloween. 

[raidem]

This nonzero vs netzero argument isn't entirely apples and apples.

I'm suggesting that Maeve lost some nonzero amount of power that went to Murphy aside from the Winter Lady mantle. That power still would be netzero.  Even if there was a zero amount of power that went to Murphy from Maeve, I'd argue she did gain influence, acknowledgement which is part of power in nevernever with her killing of Maeve.  One has to wonder what Mab thought about it being she couldn't quite do the deed herself.

On the note of Mab, I was thinking back to when Mab took the bullet out of Mac at the end of Cold Days.  I coupled it with the short story Even Hand where Gard gives Marcone a rune engraved bullet that took out a historical figure to be used against the Fomor Lord.  Well, I'd imagine that Mab wanted this bullet and got it via some sort of exchange her pulling out the bullet so that Mac could heal with an intention of using a metaphysically laced bullet to take out something bigger.  Now, imagine if Griffyn is right that Mac is a transubstantiated Raphael.  He was just gut shot with a bullet, I would think that the bullet would/could be fashioned into something greater like Gard did with her bullet.