Author Topic: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?  (Read 8642 times)

Offline Dom

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Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« on: October 03, 2006, 10:05:29 PM »
Books and the digital world of media are an interesting subject for me.  With all the hullaballoo over music pirating, and movie pirating, and digital image pirating (less so, but still there), book pirating hasn't--quite--taken off.

Part of that is because no ideal e-book reader has been made yet.  There's no iPod of the book world.  When your average book takes at least a day for even the speediest readers to read and doesn't need batteries, or to be recharged, or to do much of anything but sit in your car or backpack or whatever, it's kind of hard to beat that.  Why buy a reader for $100+, PLUS the price of the book you want to read, PLUS batteries or whatever, just to read a book?  Nobody in their right mind would do that unless they have a compelling reason, such as no room for physical books, needing to travel a lot (which, again, is no room for physical books), or being blind (an e-book can probably be read by a computer reader even if there's no audiobook version yet.  Not as nice as an audiobook, but it does the trick in a pinch).

So until that ipod of the book world is made, physical books are in little danger, at least compared to what the music and movie (and art to a lesser extent) world is experiencing.  There's no need for authors to figure out where their money is going to come from.

However...that's not to say it's not coming.  There is tech being developed where you can have "screens" that are as flat as paper, and that keep their image until changed (no extensive battery drain, you can use it when the light is out, for days and days or months or whatever before the letters fade).  Stick a bunch of those in a spine you can hook up to a computer, and voila!  You have your physical book-killer.  One physical book, gazillions of digital stories.  Heck, put a cellphone in the spine, and you can dial up or some such a new book without having to go home and load a new one in via your computer.

Once that happens, books will be in the same spot music and movies are in.  But only on a few fronts in the SFF lit world do I see anyone trying to adapt to this eventuality...a few online magazines here, a few there.  The whole, "It's a magazine, BUT IT'S ONLINE!!!!" thing all over again. (People tend to think they have an entirely new concept if it's online, even if the concept is actually an old one.)

One of the strangest things, for me, is how SLOW the SFF genre is at adopting to the digital world.  It doesn't make sense...you'd think the genre that predicted this stuff in the first place would be the ones on the bleeding edge of technology.  And yet we're not.  Why is that?

I think the solution is already here, though.  But it's not the publishing houses or the authors who are doing it...it's the fans.  Is anyone familiar with Fanfiction.net?  Gigantic fanfiction archive.  Anyone can upload or read stories, but to get fancy features on your account, it's a subscription service.  That is how they pay their webhosting bills, I assume.  Of course, the problem with anyone being able to upload their stuff is that most of it is crapola.  But that's another matter.  The fact remains that there is currently a site that's an archive of fiction SELLING SUBSCRIPTIONS.  IE, they're making money enough to float the hosting, although they're not paying their authors.  (It's fanfiction, they can't.)

The issue in the future of writing is how will authors promote and sell their stuff in the digital online world so they can continue to produce more.

I think if you get an online store--like Amazon but exclusively for digital content--you could pave the way for the lit world's "iPod". Merge amazon.com with fanfiction.net .

Of course, we hit another problem here.  Traditionally, a writer makes their story or book.  Then they convince an experienced agent or publishing house that their story can make money.  The story is bought, the writer is paid an advance, and then the book is sold.  Sometimes a few royalties trickle in afterwards if the book sells really well.  However, in any case, the writer gets paid in full before the books get into the reader's hands.  They're paid once they give their content to someone.

To get a digital lit store off of the ground, you'll need to convince talented (and often established) writers that this sort of format will work.  You'll need the talent (and not the dross of fanfiction.net) to draw a real reader base you can make a profit on and pay your authors with.  It's a very strange concept for writers...no physical books involved.  No magazines, or online magazines.  And how will the writers get paid?  *When* will they get paid?  Where are the agents and publishing companies in all of this?  The tried-and-true way for a pro writer to get published will be totally changed.  And that will freak people out.

The benefits of going digital with writing is that you get a wider audience...much as with anything that goes online.  And if it's a pay-for service (for the readers, not the authors), the author could potentially get a larger cut of the profits.  The only overhead would be the webspace and staff to keep the site running.  And if you do it now, you'll have your base when that ipod-of-the-lit-world is made, so while everyone else is floudering, you'll be happily selling books to people owning the new gadget.

But it's a really scary thought.  I've been considering on and off if I should release one of my novels chapter-by-chapter online.  And it's scary because there IS no ipod-for-the-lit-world yet, nor a central group of readers to tap or advertise to, or software to use to collect my profits, so why the hell am I wasting my hard work and time by giving it away possibly free when I could sell the darn thing to a traditional publisher and get paid all at once for it?

It's sort of a chicken-and-egg thing here, with no biologists to step in and assure everyone that the egg was first.  Nobody wants to take the first step, because there's no real reason to yet so long as physical books are still selling and people are making money, but still this situation is inevitable and we're getting play-by-play action of how the music and movie industries are slugging the whole digital content thing out.

Right now, this is probably an established-writer's-market.  An author who has a reader base and people who would pay them something no matter the format has less to lose then a newbie who could still potentially sell their story to a traditional publishing house and get paid the old-fashioned tried-and-true way.

When the ipod-for-lit comes out, it will be a newbie-writer's market, because they will have nothing to lose as the old format will be dying anyway, and there will be a new "audience" of people who use this new gadget who want more and more content for it.

Wow.  I wrote a lot. I guess it's been stewing for a while.

Sorry if it's a bit of a mess.  I tried to make my chain of thoughts logical.

Anyone else have thoughts?

Or, anyone want to open a business with me? ;)

* * * *

Will books ever be obsolete?

First you had the radio serial.  Spoken books and voice actors and a family event around the radio.  That didn't kill books.

Then you got the movie, and TV.  Life action books with special effects and everything.  That didn't kill books either.

Why don't either of these kill books?  Because books are a connection into a writer's mind.  Radio, video...those are time-lapsed and preserved plays.  Theater.  What you normally see when interacting with another person in real life.  Books, on the other hand, introduce you almost direclty to the thoughts of another person.

Once you can pipe thoughts from one mind to another, then I think the novel may become obsolete, because there will be a new media that can convey the same, or nearly the same, thoughts the writer wishes to convey to their readership.  Instead of writers, you will have thought-crafters who can put together a unique mental experience for their...readers.  Or thinkers.  Or whatever you call them.  But until then, books will endure.
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Offline smoorman

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2006, 01:38:37 AM »
Baen Publishing has had an e-book line for some seven years now. What they do is, you can can get the entire month's worth of books for about what a single hardback costs. As I understand it, they pay those authors in the exact same way the pay for paper versions.

Offline Antimatter Girl

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2006, 04:22:26 AM »
If your goal is to actually make money by selling your book(s) online, I would recommend against it. If Tad Williams couldn't make S'march work as a viable e-business, I doubt it is even possible in today's internet climate ^.^

BTW, how'd this sort of venture work out for Stephen King? I think he tried this once, too.

There is also a severe handicap to the medium of online reading. People read text on a screen slower than they read text on a page. In other words, it is physically harder to read words on a computer screen. (Note to web designers, this is also true of text and background colors; a dark background with light text is harder to read than a light background with dark text.)

I think perhaps if books are to become marketable as internet-based documents that authors will have to look at webcomics for a business model. On the other hand, successful webcomics will often have pulp editions, so we're seeing again that paper is powerful. Perhaps if one were to pool together several authors and offer sample chapters from their novels to generate interest, then sell hard copies to loyal readers through self-publishing? That might be a better alternative to just use the net as a marketing tool.

Frankly, I'd be more concerned for the newspaper community than I would the bookselling community. Online media offer an immediacy that daily papers cannot hope to reproduce without their own webpages. But that immediacy is not an essential aspect for enjoying a book, so the net loses that advantage when it comes to selling online novels.

The only other advantage (assuming storage space is not an issue) would be the barrier to exposure, but that becomes a double-edged sword; anyone can publish what they want online, but a person's work becomes dilluted in such a vast market to the point that making any sort of money off it would be impossible without the backing of publishing-house marketing. iTunes hasn't exactly seen the advent of independent music -- it's just another way to get what the record companies are already selling on CD.

Yeah, don't think we'll see the death of paper books any time in the near future.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2006, 04:26:59 AM by Antimatter Girl »

Offline Belial

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2006, 08:32:34 AM »
" There is tech being developed where you can have "screens" that are as flat as paper, and that keep their image until changed (no extensive battery drain, you can use it when the light is out, for days and days or months or whatever before the letters fade).  Stick a bunch of those in a spine you can hook up to a computer, and voila!  You have your physical book-killer.  One physical book, gazillions of digital stories.  Heck, put a cellphone in the spine, and you can dial up or some such a new book without having to go home and load a new one in via your computer."

The main problems I would see with this are one: I would imagine that this technology would be awfully expensive (I could be wrong), and thus make it impractical. And Two: It sounds like it might be fairly easy to damage, in which case the repair costs just wouldn't be worth it.

As for the idea of a subscription based book service online, the problem I see with that is this: If I'm going to sit down and spend hours of my time reading a book, I'm already in a select group (let's face it, a lot of people these days don't like to read). Now, among the people I know that like to read, all of them prefer the book format to the computer. Why? Books have a soul, I can lovingly trace the creases on the spine of my books, I can't do that with a computer. Computers are stale and lifeless, just not the same feeling. Anyways, if I'm going to pay money for something, I want it in a "hard" format, not as memory on a computer. Even if I could print it, I'd be spending almost as much money doing so as I would buying the book (paperback that is).

Those are just my two cents. I may be a freak, I may love books a little too much, and I may be an optimist (or a pessimist depending on how you view it). But I just don't see the traditional book going anywhere anytime soon. And I for one, am glad of it.

Offline BigMama

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2006, 01:28:33 PM »
The newspaper world is already suffering from the loss of revenue as a result of internet news services. As long as there are bibliophiles, e-books will only be one of a myriad of choices. The love and ownership of physical books is part of an emotional attachment that developes between the author and the reader. It simply cannot be duplicated digitally, IMO. I also find it very hard to cuddle up to my monitor with a cup of tea on a cold winter evening. Not the same sensual experience as reading a traditional book.
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Offline terioncalling

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2006, 10:37:57 PM »
I'm suddenly reminded of an episode of...eh, what's the TV show.  Sort of like the Twilight Zone only without Serling and more recent.  Eh, I can't remember.

But it had an episode that was in a future world where books were made obsolute because of this computer system that hooked everyone into all the information in the world.  People had this thingy on their head that hooked them into it and they could download whatever they wanted right into their brain.  Except there was one guy it didn't work on and he had collected all the books he could.

'Course this continues on into a big plot by the computer to take over the world and - of course - book guy saves the day.  But that's beside the point.

This discussion just reminded me of that.

And, personally, I believe I'll be a long time before the written word dies.  Me, myself, I love stuff I can read online.  But I love having an actual flesh 'n blood book in my hands much more.
"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candlelight, moonlight, no light. If I lose paper and ink, I will write in blood on forgotten walls. I will write always. I will capture nights all over the world and bring them to you." - Henry Rollins

Offline novium

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2006, 02:11:27 PM »
Baen Publishing has had an e-book line for some seven years now. What they do is, you can can get the entire month's worth of books for about what a single hardback costs. As I understand it, they pay those authors in the exact same way the pay for paper versions.


they also have a lot of books up for free, because ... well, it's a long philosophy/rant. Basically they don't think piracy is a problem. Especially when so much of their business relies on libraries, people lending books to their friends, etc.
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Offline novium

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2006, 02:16:46 PM »
It was the outer limits.

Anyway, I think there's a time and place for e-books. For example, I've got a bunch of books from the baen free library on my PDA. It doesn't bother me all that much to read it that way. I'd never want it to replace paper books, but it is damn handy to have ten books packed into something the thickness of maybe 15 playing cards and only of a slightly larger size. Then I'm never stuck without a book, because I keep my PDA in my wallet... or I can take it out and slip it into a pocket.

I'm suddenly reminded of an episode of...eh, what's the TV show.  Sort of like the Twilight Zone only without Serling and more recent.  Eh, I can't remember.

But it had an episode that was in a future world where books were made obsolute because of this computer system that hooked everyone into all the information in the world.  People had this thingy on their head that hooked them into it and they could download whatever they wanted right into their brain.  Except there was one guy it didn't work on and he had collected all the books he could.

'Course this continues on into a big plot by the computer to take over the world and - of course - book guy saves the day.  But that's beside the point.

This discussion just reminded me of that.

And, personally, I believe I'll be a long time before the written word dies.  Me, myself, I love stuff I can read online.  But I love having an actual flesh 'n blood book in my hands much more.
sed tamen ira procul absit, cum qua nihil recte fieri, nihil considerate potest.

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Offline terroja

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2006, 08:35:20 AM »
It'll never happen.
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Another that he might find a victim.
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Offline Dom

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2006, 08:32:50 PM »
Never is a long time, terroja.

I find it interesting that people in general have not been addressing what I wrote, but rather...I guess the idea of digital books as they stand now.  Looking at the present, rather then the future.

Some elaborations on my original post:

1.  Like always, there will be generational resistance to the adoption of a new technology.  I highly doubt any of us on this board, even those who regularly read stories on thier PDAs, computers, etc. will ever give up paper books.  I do not expect us ever to.  I know that I will not.

However, that does not mean the next generation, perhaps those who are not born yet, or perhaps those who are still in diapers today, will have the same nostalgia for paper books.  Again, consider the very viberent world of fanfiction; 99% of that is online.  It's a whole spectrum of fiction that is almost entirely read online.  You get a 10 year old, 12 year old reading it, and they won't find anything strange at all at reading fiction that's not in a book ten years in the future. Sure, it's clunky now, but humanity is all about innovation.  Someone will get fed up with things and make it easier.

2.  Antimatter Girl mentioned Tad Williams.  I wasn't aware of his venture...my question is, was it only his own fiction that he published, or did he have a wide array of fiction by many authors?  The critical point for most websites online is quantity (and to a lesser extent, the quality standards or moderation system in place).  The big, comprehensive sites online get the traffic.  This is also one of the hardest things to get together for the sort of site I'm hypothesising about, because you have to convince many, many skeptical, critical authors to contribute their babies to such a cause.  Again, I'm using fanfiction.net as an example.  A lot of it is dross, but many fanfiction authors post there anyway just because so many people use the site, and they are sure to get a wide audience.  There are so many readers on the site because there are so many fanfiction authors on the site.  It's a self-reinforcing cycle.  Until one site hits that critical mass, yes, it is very, very likly that most digital book sites will fail, both in readership and in making money.

3.  I don't think there will be a book-replacement gadget soon; the technology I mentioned is in its infancy.  However, I do believe once we have a gadget that has all the positives of a physical book, and none of the negatives that gadgets nowdays have (battery life, fragility, etc), one physical book that you can download hundreds or thousands of books into would go over great with the travel/space-conscious crowd, and also the younger generation (who won't be nostalgic over paper books).  I could see this going over great in colleges too.  Price will of course start high, and then drop.  Think of MP3 players nowdays; I have one myself that cost $250.00.  My CD player from before cost $40.00.  The reason I paid the premium for the MP3 player is because I can fit more songs onto the device, and I don't have to carry CDs which can be scratched (half my collection is scratched because of sliding around in my car, which means I have to re-buy the CDs after a while).  Books are friggin heavy; I know, I just moved, and I have 400+ books.  While I would never give up my physical books, being of THIS generation, a younger generation might see carrying all those friggin heavy books as just plain silly.   Just buy your $250.00 book-reader, and put all your books on that.  Never have to break your back moving books again.
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Offline Antimatter Girl

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2006, 11:18:43 PM »
Tad, unfortunately, was only selling one story on his site: Shadowmarch, which can now be found at your local bookstore. I think it was $15 for a year's subscription, and he'd post a new chapter every two weeks. Problem is, he was doing this project at the same time he was writing War of the Flowers, and 1) he had a hard time meeting both deadlines and 2) the revenue wasn't enough to justify the time he was spending on the project. Ergo, the subscription chapters were removed and Tad put S'march on hold until he could dedicate all his time to it and publish it in hard copy.

I'm pretty sure Stephen King had his own project that worked like this, but I have no idea on the details. I think he was slightly more successful than Tad.

It is rather surprising that one doesn't find as many sites out there like your fanfiction archive, except with original stories. Perhaps it is because most people who have original stories are more interested in getting compensation for their work in addition to sharing with the world? Fanfic, after all, has no hope for ever being published for-profit (unless you're a Trekkie), so it is distributed pro bono. But you'd think that there are other writers of original fiction who would want to share with the world for the love of the word and not bother with that whole publishing thing. Or am I just completely out of the hobbyist writer loop, and these sites do exist?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 11:22:39 PM by Antimatter Girl »

Offline Dom

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2006, 12:16:29 AM »
Quote
But you'd think that there are other writers of original fiction who would want to share with the world for the love of the word and not bother with that whole publishing thing. Or am I just completely out of the hobbyist writer loop, and these sites do exist?

There are some...the two I know offhand are Wyvern's Library at Elfwood, and the one that was split off from fanfiction.net (I forgot the name).  Neither have quality controls, so while they are viable online archives of original fiction, it's pretty much a slog to find the gems.  I think there are rating systems, but they're not easy to use to find the good stuff, so you have to be a determined reader to find the quality work.  I think Deviantart might have some writing too.  In any case, a reader has to work to find the good stuff, and I think that makes the sites less valuable then they couldl be.

I guess what I'm thinking is of more of a writing version of Epilogue.  Epilogue is a SFF art website, and the art is hand-approved by a group of moderators, who are recognized talent in the field themselves.  This makes sure that only the things some moderator/editor thinks are good enough gets in.  (of course, angry young artists who were rejected like to call the site Elitist.)  I don't think they have a subscription model, but their motivation is to get exposure for artists so the artists can get more gigs.  They do have a store; I don't know what sort of revenue the store gets, but since they have a patron thing for upgrades to the site, not enough to do hardware upgrades.

In the fanfic world, The Sugar Quill is a fanfiction archive that is moderated like this.  It archives Harry Potter fiction.  (The site seems to be down at the moment though, at least for me).
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Offline novium

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2006, 09:35:12 AM »
If I remember, he posted a new chapter of a story every week or month or something, and continued to do so as long as the majority of  people reading the book mailed him a dollar. It was a test of honesty or something.

Tad, unfortunately, was only selling one story on his site: Shadowmarch, which can now be found at your local bookstore. I think it was $15 for a year's subscription, and he'd post a new chapter every two weeks. Problem is, he was doing this project at the same time he was writing War of the Flowers, and 1) he had a hard time meeting both deadlines and 2) the revenue wasn't enough to justify the time he was spending on the project. Ergo, the subscription chapters were removed and Tad put S'march on hold until he could dedicate all his time to it and publish it in hard copy.

I'm pretty sure Stephen King had his own project that worked like this, but I have no idea on the details. I think he was slightly more successful than Tad.

It is rather surprising that one doesn't find as many sites out there like your fanfiction archive, except with original stories. Perhaps it is because most people who have original stories are more interested in getting compensation for their work in addition to sharing with the world? Fanfic, after all, has no hope for ever being published for-profit (unless you're a Trekkie), so it is distributed pro bono. But you'd think that there are other writers of original fiction who would want to share with the world for the love of the word and not bother with that whole publishing thing. Or am I just completely out of the hobbyist writer loop, and these sites do exist?
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Offline Mickey Finn

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2006, 01:01:26 PM »
My first published story was on a website called "Mind's Eye Fiction," developed by a rocket scientist at NASA.  The concept was simple...read the first half of the story for free, and pay for the second half (in a variety of way, including banner ads) if you wanted to see the rest of it. If you felt ripped off by the second half, you could get a refund (he only had 2 or so refunds the entire time). Authors got paid per hit of the second half of their story.
As an unknown, I didn't get a whole lot...unless you count the free ticket to World Con for letting him crash on my couch...but I got published next to visionaries who thought he had a good idea: Harlan Ellison, Spider Robinson, Fred Saberhagen, and Stephen King, to name a few.
Damn straight, I'm proud of that ;)

Unfortunately, the editor got to the point where he couldn't maintain the site any more (time issues) and sold it to another company...who promptly screwed it up.

"One of the strangest things, for me, is how SLOW the SFF genre is at adopting to the digital world.  It doesn't make sense...you'd think the genre that predicted this stuff in the first place would be the ones on the bleeding edge of technology.  And yet we're not.  Why is that?"

For a lot of people, the toys aren't ready, yet. They're either too expensive to afford, or aren't what we want.

"(Note to web designers, this is also true of text and background colors; a dark background with light text is harder to read than a light background with dark text.)"

This depends on the person and their sensitivity to light. I have excellent night vision (which is funny, because my vision is way past legally bling w/o corrective lenses), so for me, staring at a white screen hurts. I actually reset my colors in Word so I have a black screen with pale blue letters.

"The main problems I would see with this are one: I would imagine that this technology would be awfully expensive (I could be wrong), and thus make it impractical. And Two: It sounds like it might be fairly easy to damage, in which case the repair costs just wouldn't be worth it."

One: Now, yes....later, no.  Two: It's tougher than the paper it emmulates ;) The 'electronic paper' concept will, in the end, be able to mimic newspaper and books to a tee, but the pages will be rewritten at will. Oh, and it won't have the wonderful musty smell.









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Offline BigMama

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Re: Books in a digital world, and when will books be obsolete?
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2006, 01:44:32 PM »
Again, I think you can't discount the emotional attachment folks have to the traditional written word. How many of you have books that you have kept from childhood? Musty, mildewed, beloved friends that your heirs will probably burn when you finally go to your reward (or maybe sell for a fortune). :)
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