A Theory.. Some Thoughts..

[Mira]

  I remember reading a comment that Jim made about at some point Harry is really going to be pissed at Lea.  While reading 12 Months some thoughts popped into my head on this subject.  They are random, but maybe some dots can be connected.

I know one theory is he finds out that Lea killed Malcolm, that could be true.  If it is, somehow I can't see Harry ever being resigned to that and that would blow up Mab's plans big time. So I don't think that happened, I can't think of a good motive, even in Mab's twisted but calculating mind to order.  Unless, Nemesis was already manipulating Lea to some degree.  We know her desire for power even before she got the Knife in Grave Peril.  Since Nemesis might have realized that the influence of Malcolm over young Harry would be the real danger to it, it somehow manipulated Lea into doing it.

My theory is that Lea and Mab encouraged and talked Margaret into taking up with Lord Raith.  Why?  Because Mab wanted to know, needed to know what was behind the White Court's power, what was the Hunger all about?  I got that idea from why Mab manipulated Harry and Lara both, she not only wanted to find a way to control the White Court, but knowing that the Hunger was really an Outsider she wanted to see for herself just how well her star born Knight would do up against it.

That's part of it, admitted my thoughts are not very organized yet.  But back to Margaret, what Mab hadn't planned was for Margaret to have a child by Raith.  I am unsure at this point how Thomas fits into Mab's long term plans and goals, he has complicated them a bit, but not sure if she can use him to her advantage one way or the other.  I think Mab got lucky when Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm, simply because that motivated Margaret to leave Raith.  I believe Margaret as Raith's lover had not only found out just what the Hunger Demon was, ( Mab's plan to begin with) but she gained enough information to know that while she herself couldn't kill it, she knew how to stop it from feeding and deprive Raith in her death curse of much of if not all of his power. 

Margaret knew very well what a star born was, and that being one gave a star born power over Outsiders.  She also knew that the known star born, or at least the ones introduced in the series as known star born aside from Harry, have serious flaws.  As in being power hungry and brutal among other things.  This is where Malcolm comes in, repeated over and over again along with Harry's strong will is the fact that he inherited his father's good heart or nature.  This, if Lash is to believed, gave her the idea that with Malcolm as sire, Margaret could not only give birth to a star born child, but one that could lead the fight against the Outsiders. Mab encouraged this line of thinking, then Margaret proceeded to bargain for Harry to have a real Fae godmother, i.e. Lea.  However I think both parties were holding back in the bargaining process, Margaret never told Mab that Malcolm understood and agreed to conceive this child.  That Margaret reasoned that this star born child would be different from those that came before him.  Mab held back from Margaret her plans on just how she would use this child to her advantage and manipulate him.  A huge reason as to why Mab has only been partly successful in her manipulation, is that part of Harry's nature that he inherited from his father.  Mab didn't exactly get the star born Knight she thought she wanted, she has actually gotten the one she needed.  Over time since Harry has become her Knight, I think she is beginning to see that.

The relationship between Lara and Harry is merely the next phase or step in Mab's plans leading up to the coming battle. Stay tuned..

Just some thoughts I have, what do you guys think?
 

[g33k]

  I remember reading a comment that Jim made about at some point Harry is really going to be pissed at Lea ...

IIRC, Jim said "if Harry knew what she had done..."

I don't know if Jim intends to have a Big Reveal moment for this (where Harry finds out); or if it's going to be one of those "backgrounder" elements (like the Oblivion War) that Harry's never going to learn about.  Or if Jim himself hasn't yet decided (this is where I think Jim is (or was when he spoke at the time)).

I agree though, that Lea killing Malcolm would qualify; and it's... not an unlikely scenario!

But also:  I think Harry's POV might be that Lea "killed" Maggie Sr. by withdrawing the "Cannot find/target magically" protection from her, in the moment Harry was born.  I mean, it probably happened more or less automatically -- Lea didn't "pull the trigger" -- but it doubtless happened with Lea's full awareness & consent... she could have extended the coverage/protection (at least for a little while).  I just don't think Harry has connected those dots, yet (and may never).

... somehow I can't see Harry ever being resigned to that and that would blow up Mab's plans big time. So I don't think that happened ...

And yet Harry can & does work with entities he hates.
He worked repeatedly with Marcone.  He worked with Lea, despite distrusting her; and with Mab, back when he considered her the "archetypal queen of wickedness, who could teach a lesson to all the other villains."  He literally followed Nicodemus to Hell, in SG.  What Lea (presumably) did to Maggie, and/or Malcolm, may be unforgivable.  But it won't necessarily be the end of everything.

... Unless, Nemesis was already manipulating Lea to some degree.  We know her desire for power even before she got the Knife in Grave Peril ...

WoJ says Mab chose Lea as her Handmaiden way-back-when because Lea would be the challenge Mab needed to stay on her toes, to sharpen herself against.  I think Lea's ambition was simply the pathway Nemesis found, to entice/seduce Lea.

... My theory is that Lea and Mab encouraged and talked Margaret into taking up with Lord Raith.  Why?  Because Mab wanted to know, needed to know what was behind the White Court's power, what was the Hunger all about? ...

The Whampire Court has been a thing for the entirety of Mab's tenure as Queen of Winter, and her information-gathering abilities are extraordinary.  I think she already knew the nature of the Hungers.

I think Mab put Maggie into Raith's path *specifically* in conjunction with the "starbabe" plan.  I think Mab's "get a Starborn Winterknight" goes all the way back that far, to years before Harry's birth!

... she wanted to see for herself just how well her star born Knight would do up against it... 

This, I agree with.  Harry's whole "Hero's Journey" growth-path includes a major component of him powering-up to be able to face the BAT; it was a "test" but also another training-exercise, building up his ability to handle that sort of foe on a sustained basis (not just a brawl but a negotiation); as Mother Winter says, it is among the least of them... but as Mab points out, it's still one of them (and while Harry needs to grow fast, he needs to not be broken in the process, by facing too-tough a challenge too-soon).

...  But back to Margaret, what Mab hadn't planned was for Margaret to have a child by Raith.  I am unsure at this point how Thomas fits into Mab's long term plans and goals, he has complicated them a bit, but not sure if she can use him to her advantage one way or the other.  I think Mab got lucky when Margaret met and fell in love with Malcolm, simply because that motivated Margaret to leave Raith.  I believe Margaret as Raith's lover had not only found out just what the Hunger Demon was, ( Mab's plan to begin with) but she gained enough information to know that while she herself couldn't kill it, she knew how to stop it from feeding and deprive Raith in her death curse of much of if not all of his power. 

Margaret knew very well what a star born was, and that being one gave a star born power over Outsiders.  She also knew that the known star born, or at least the ones introduced in the series as known star born aside from Harry, have serious flaws.  As in being power hungry and brutal among other things.  This is where Malcolm comes in, repeated over and over again along with Harry's strong will is the fact that he inherited his father's good heart or nature.  This, if Lash is to believed, gave her the idea that with Malcolm as sire, Margaret could not only give birth to a star born child, but one that could lead the fight against the Outsiders. Mab encouraged this line of thinking, then Margaret proceeded to bargain for Harry to have a real Fae godmother, i.e. Lea.  However I think both parties were holding back in the bargaining process, Margaret never told Mab that Malcolm understood and agreed to conceive this child.  That Margaret reasoned that this star born child would be different from those that came before him.  Mab held back from Margaret her plans on just how she would use this child to her advantage and manipulate him... 

I go much further back for Mab's plans:  she knows the whole Starborn/Apocalypse cycle.  She wanted a Starborn Winterknight, this time around; perhaps her WK last cycle failed in the face of Outsiders?  So she looked around... and found Margaret, already rebellious & a "Wayward" daughter (pun absolutely intended!).  Nice strong magic talent, great for passing along to her kids.  Perfect stock to breed a Winterknight!  I doubt that was Mab's only such plan; I more than halfway-expect that Elaine Mallory was another such (but "balance" called for Summer to get Elaine, as Winter was getting Harry).

I think it was Mab -- acting through Handmaiden Lea -- who carefully hinted to Maggie Sr. about the coming Apocalypse, about the Starborn/Outsider cycle, and what a Starborn was & could be; enough to plant seeds of curiosity, coyly refusing to say more, to reveal expensive/potent secrets.  Maggie could do a bunch of her own research, fill in her own details; she thought the "starbabe" plan was her own... but it was the plan seeded by Mab.  It was the plan Maggie was trying to get the Blackstaff onboard with, that fateful night when Ariana saw the two of them "arguing like family."

I'm unclear why (& how!) exactly Maggie left Raith Père (but I think she left her "starbabe" plan behind when she left Raith).  I presume the Awesome Vampire Sex was still being Awesome.  We saw in 12M that Lara got Harry to the point where she *could* have broken his will, if she had wanted (also note how much the WC & Eb & early/mid Ramirez worried about Harry being brainbent by Whamps -- Whampire control of wizards is clearly a "credible threat").  Maybe Raith (at that point, still much stronger than Lara!) was coming close to breaking Maggie's will, and she realized & bailed-out?  Maybe she realized that giving Raith&Co access to a Starbabe was a  Really Bad Idea^(TM)?   Maybe it was Lea:  she's the Faerie demigoddess of Muses/Inspiration, maybe she "inspired" Maggie to flee (Faerie power on the Leanansidhe's scale is one of the things likely to be able to overcome a Whampire-addiction; and Mab's power was likely available as backup if needed).  Maybe it was "all of the above, plus more."  I presume Mab or Lea to be part of Maggie's escape, simply because we haven't seen anything (other than Morgan's "untrackable" favor from Titania) that could have kept Raith's Entropy-Curse spells from targeting Maggie & (sooner or later) killing her.

Enter Malcolm, Stage Left.  A truly Good Man (KotC-level Good, though not a Knight).  This was Uriel's play (obviously), but given the Mab/Uriel shenanigans we have seen, I don't doubt Mr. Sunshine was more than marginally aware of what Mab had simmering in her cauldron!  But after swimming for a decade in the shark-infested waters with Whampires & Rampires & we-don't-know-what-else, I imagine Margaret LaFey's soulgaze with Malcolm was a life-changing experience (and I expect Uriel had a damned good idea what that impact would feel like to her).  But falling in love with him, her old hopes to Change the World for the Better flared up again:  perhaps a starbabe born & raised by such a Good Man could after all become the force-for-Good in the world that she originally had hoped for?  Also maybe a healthy dollop of old-fashioned "in love, want to have children together;" but she had to at least have been willing for Harry to be a Starborn:  she knew the "starbabe how-to" (and thus how-not-to) & could easily have prevented it ... if she had wanted to insure she wouldn't put that destiny onto her&Malcolm's child.

... A huge reason as to why Mab has only been partly successful in her manipulation, is that part of Harry's nature that he inherited from his father.  Mab didn't exactly get the star born Knight she thought she wanted, she has actually gotten the one she needed.  Over time since Harry has become her Knight, I think she is beginning to see that.

I don't think she has seen that, no.  She recognizes that she's got a stronger, better knight than any she's had in a long time; and (since he is the reaping of her decades-old sowing) she thinks she understands why he's so much better; but she's wrong.

I think it's Harry's rearing with Malcolm that makes the difference, not an "inherited" trait.  Aristotle (or maybe the Jesuits; it depends who you ask) famously said, "Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man."  Malcolm raised Harry for those first few formative years.  I don't think Mab understands in the slightest what that really means; to the extent she (thinks she) knows, she considers it "softness" and "weakness" and she is trying to purge it from Harry. But it's too much a part of who and what he is.

Much more than her harsh methods, Harry's strength is based upon love itself, learned from Malcolm.

... The relationship between Lara and Harry is merely the next phase or step in Mab's plans leading up to the coming battle. Stay tuned..

Oh, I'm 100% onboard with this!  Everything at this point is Mab's work preparing for the upcoming Apocalypse (or defending herself, so as to minimize the cost, so she's more-ready for the battle).

[Mira]

But also:  I think Harry's POV might be that Lea "killed" Maggie Sr. by withdrawing the "Cannot find/target magically" protection from her, in the moment Harry was born.  I mean, it probably happened more or less automatically -- Lea didn't "pull the trigger" -- but it doubtless happened with Lea's full awareness & consent... she could have extended the coverage/protection (at least for a little while).  I just don't think Harry has connected those dots, yet (and may never).

  It's possible that it was Lea that made the promises to Margaret that her child would be protected, and then failed to protect her.  Harry would be, and is actually not happy of being deprived of his mother from birth.  Also though I think it is more or less clear that Eb kept away from Harry after Malcolm died to protect him, it could also be that Lea had a lot to do with him not even able to track young Harry after he was orphaned.

And yet Harry can & does work with entities he hates.
He worked repeatedly with Marcone.  He worked with Lea, despite distrusting her; and with Mab, back when he considered her the "archetypal queen of wickedness, who could teach a lesson to all the other villains."  He literally followed Nicodemus to Hell, in SG.  What Lea (presumably) did to Maggie, and/or Malcolm, may be unforgivable.  But it won't necessarily be the end of everything.

Yes, and no, Harry has asked Marcone's help on occasion, but using him more than "working with him." Actually they were using each other, Harry, because he needed Marcone's muscle, Marcone because he wanted to use Harry as a door to get him into where he has gotten.  If he hadn't been involved with Harry I think Marcone would still be merely the crime boss he was when we first met him.  After meeting Harry he realized the the supernatural world was key to even greater power.  As far as Mab goes once she bought his contract from Lea, Harry didn't have a whole lot of choice.  That was the whole point of her making him impale his own hand on the letter spike, while yes, Harry continues to try and do it his way, in the end he has to go along.  Up until Changes, Harry never exactly worked with Lea either, he was more afraid of her than working with her.  Harry didn't have a choice to go with Nic into Hell if you will recall, it was under orders, not only that but Harry and Mab had their own adgenda.

WoJ says Mab chose Lea as her Handmaiden way-back-when because Lea would be the challenge Mab needed to stay on her toes, to sharpen herself against.  I think Lea's ambition was simply the pathway Nemesis found, to entice/seduce Lea.

Mab may have chosen Lea for those reasons, but Lea's ambitions went beyond that under the influence of Nemesis, her accepting the Knife for herself at the party and not on behalf of her Queen is telling.  That wasn't the work of a day or two under the influence of Nemesis, I believe it was subtle and Lea wasn't aware until it was too late, by the time she did and confessed to Mab, it was too late to save Maeve who perhaps was the real target

The Whampire Court has been a thing for the entirety of Mab's tenure as Queen of Winter, and her information-gathering abilities are extraordinary.  I think she already knew the nature of the Hungers.

I think Mab put Maggie into Raith's path *specifically* in conjunction with the "starbabe" plan.  I think Mab's "get a Starborn Winterknight" goes all the way back that far, to years before Harry's birth!

I disagree, while Mab no doubt knew of the Hunger Demon, I don't think she knew that much about it.  Remember what Lara said about it's history being a close kept secret among the White Court.  I do agree that the starborn/Winter Knight has been her plan for a very long time, and Margaret made it possible.

I go much further back for Mab's plans:  she knows the whole Starborn/Apocalypse cycle.  She wanted a Starborn Winterknight, this time around; perhaps her WK last cycle failed in the face of Outsiders?  So she looked around... and found Margaret, already rebellious & a "Wayward" daughter (pun absolutely intended!).  Nice strong magic talent, great for passing along to her kids.  Perfect stock to breed a Winterknight!  I doubt that was Mab's only such plan; I more than halfway-expect that Elaine Mallory was another such (but "balance" called for Summer to get Elaine, as Winter was getting Harry).

I sorta agree on Harry, but I don't think we have any clue about Elaine.  We know who Harry's parents were, we know the connections and talents of his mother, perfect setup to create a star born future Winter Knight.  We know nothing about Elaine's parents or their connections with Summer, if there was one.  The only thing so far that made her a possible candidate for star born is when she was born and her talent.  That may be why as a character she has been removed from the picture, though I am not saying she won't appear again.

I think it was Mab -- acting through Handmaiden Lea -- who carefully hinted to Maggie Sr. about the coming Apocalypse, about the Starborn/Outsider cycle, and what a Starborn was & could be; enough to plant seeds of curiosity, coyly refusing to say more, to reveal expensive/potent secrets.  Maggie could do a bunch of her own research, fill in her own details; she thought the "starbabe" plan was her own... but it was the plan seeded by Mab.  It was the plan Maggie was trying to get the Blackstaff onboard with, that fateful night when Ariana saw the two of them "arguing like family."

Possible, but I still think it was a conclusion Margaret came to on her own after being with Lord Raith for a while.  I think it very possible that Margaret actually did soul gaze Lord Raith and learned about the Hunger Demon and realized what it was.  I also think it's no real secret that at some point the BAT is coming and a leader hopefully a star born one would emerge.  Problem with that is until Margaret met Malcolm none of the star born were suitable because they were as bad or almost as bad as the Outsiders.  Remember what Lash said about Margaret delibrately conceiving a star child with Malcolm because of his qualities.

Enter Malcolm, Stage Left.  A truly Good Man (KotC-level Good, though not a Knight).  This was Uriel's play (obviously), but given the Mab/Uriel shenanigans we have seen, I don't doubt Mr. Sunshine was more than marginally aware of what Mab had simmering in her cauldron!  But after swimming for a decade in the shark-infested waters with Whampires & Rampires & we-don't-know-what-else, I imagine Margaret LaFey's soulgaze with Malcolm was a life-changing experience (and I expect Uriel had a damned good idea what that impact would feel like to her).  But falling in love with him, her old hopes to Change the World for the Better flared up again:  perhaps a starbabe born & raised by such a Good Man could after all become the force-for-Good in the world that she originally had hoped for?  Also maybe a healthy dollop of old-fashioned "in love, want to have children together;" but she had to at least have been willing for Harry to be a Starborn:  she knew the "starbabe how-to" (and thus how-not-to) & could easily have prevented it ... if she had wanted to insure she wouldn't put that destiny onto her&Malcolm's child.

I agree that Uriel had a lot to do with putting Malcolm in Margaret's path.  I think Uriel was well aware of the need for a star born to fight the Outsiders but at the same time aware of the flaws in the star born.  Free will still enters the picture, Uriel couldn't make the two of them fall in love, all he could do is nudge here and there and hopefully love and free will would take it's course.

I don't think she has seen that, no.  She recognizes that she's got a stronger, better knight than any she's had in a long time; and (since he is the reaping of her decades-old sowing) she thinks she understands why he's so much better; but she's wrong.

I think it's Harry's rearing with Malcolm that makes the difference, not an "inherited" trait.  Aristotle (or maybe the Jesuits; it depends who you ask) famously said, "Give me a child until he is seven and I will show you the man."  Malcolm raised Harry for those first few formative years.  I don't think Mab understands in the slightest what that really means; to the extent she (thinks she) knows, she considers it "softness" and "weakness" and she is trying to purge it from Harry. But it's too much a part of who and what he is.

Much more than her harsh methods, Harry's strength is based upon love itself, learned from Malcolm.

I think it's both, just in real life, the genes that you are born with are the genes you have, but nurturing is just as important.  It's example that really counts as far as influence with Harry.  Harry had three examples of how to be a man when he grew up, Malcolm, Justin, and Eb.  Malcolm and Eb win out because it was in Harry's personality, the one he inherited to be accepting of their examples.  Justin didn't even try to be an example for Harry to follow, he had his own agenda as far as either Harry or Elaine goes.  Justin didn't care what kind of person either kid grew up to be as long as he could use them for his own purpose.

[g33k]

  It's possible that it was Lea that made the promises to Margaret that her child would be protected, and then failed to protect her.  Harry would be, and is actually not happy of being deprived of his mother from birth.  Also though I think it is more or less clear that Eb kept away from Harry after Malcolm died to protect him, it could also be that Lea had a lot to do with him not even able to track young Harry after he was orphaned.

No, that was absolutely a Lea/Margaret bargain:  the "Faerie Godmother" bargain to protect Harry, made before he was born (because she died in childbirth, and was busily Death-Cursing Raith (so no bargain could be made at that point)).

Margaret still survived a wrathful Lord Raith as she fled from him, and onward through meeting/courting Malcolm.  It is this period that I think she had some separate bargain (with Lea or Mab) to keep her safe from Lord Raith's revenge; she would have needed that in place from the moment Raith realized she had fled.  I suggest Morgan being "unfindable" (via Titania) tells us exactly how Margaret kept herself hidden:  a major Faerie Power stepping in.

But Margaret gave up her own safety in her bargain to get Harry a Faerie Godmother (and that Harry-centered protective cover over her ended when Harry exited her womb).

... Yes, and no, Harry has asked Marcone's help on occasion, but using him more than "working with him." Actually they were using each other, Harry, because he needed Marcone's muscle, Marcone because he wanted to use Harry as a door to get him into where he has gotten.  If he hadn't been involved with Harry I think Marcone would still be merely the crime boss he was when we first met him.  After meeting Harry he realized the the supernatural world was key to even greater power.  As far as Mab goes once she bought his contract from Lea, Harry didn't have a whole lot of choice.  That was the whole point of her making him impale his own hand on the letter spike, while yes, Harry continues to try and do it his way, in the end he has to go along.  Up until Changes, Harry never exactly worked with Lea either, he was more afraid of her than working with her.  Harry didn't have a choice to go with Nic into Hell if you will recall, it was under orders, not only that but Harry and Mab had their own adgenda.

The point though is that -- if necessary -- Harry can and does work with people/entities that he distrusts... and even passionately hates.  So even if Harry thinks Lea had something to do with his mother's death and/or his father's -- it's still possible (after the frst shock and rage) that he'll be able to work with her, if it's truly needed (such as to protect his daughter).

... Mab may have chosen Lea for those reasons, but Lea's ambitions went beyond that under the influence of Nemesis, her accepting the Knife for herself at the party and not on behalf of her Queen is telling.  That wasn't the work of a day or two under the influence of Nemesis, I believe it was subtle and Lea wasn't aware until it was too late, by the time she did and confessed to Mab, it was too late to save Maeve who perhaps was the real target

I agree with almost all of this; but I think Lea's ambitions were always to kill Mab and usurp her Mantle.  That ambition is why Mab chose her in the first place!

What Nemesis did, was allow Lea to cheat.  To use tactics/methods forbidden by Winter Law, that Lea normally would never have considered (and possibly been unable to use, 'cos Winter Law is pretty hardcore like that -- sometimes more "physical law" than "legal code").

Maybe Maeve was the "real" target; but maybe it was Mab herself!
Lea s Mab's Handmaiden, after all; not Maeve's.
But I suspect it was a bit more opportunistic than that -- if you Nemfect the #2 in the Winter Court, you get a huge number of new targets you didn't have before!  It's worth taking a year or ten, figuring out your best next move.

... I disagree, while Mab no doubt knew of the Hunger Demon, I don't think she knew that much about it.  Remember what Lara said about it's history being a close kept secret among the White Court.  I do agree that the starborn/Winter Knight has been her plan for a very long time, and Margaret made it possible.

I don't think we actually have enough info to be sure how much Mab knew by when; maybe you're right and I'm wrong... but as a general rule I think the safer bet is on Mab to know a hell of a lot more than expected, sooner than expected.

I doubt we'll ever know for sure, unless someone asks Jim during an AMA, and we get a new WoJ!

... I sorta agree on Harry, but I don't think we have any clue about Elaine.  We know who Harry's parents were, we know the connections and talents of his mother, perfect setup to create a star born future Winter Knight.  We know nothing about Elaine's parents or their connections with Summer, if there was one.  The only thing so far that made her a possible candidate for star born is when she was born and her talent ...

Elaine's case is "only" circumstantial, true... but...
Bear with me, as I lay out the logic chain.
1.  Mab wanted to get a knight who was a powerful Starborn.
2.  To that end, she actually engaged in a "breeding program" to get Harry -- a strong "Salic Law" wizard born (on Halloween) from Margaret LaFey, and guided Maggie Sr. along the "starbabe plan" pathway.
2a.  Much of Harry's life was subtly guided by Mab (and Lea, acting as Mab's Handmaiden).
3.  But we also know Mab is about all about backups, contingency-planning, etc.
3a. Therefore (and here we get circumstantial), we can be confident that Margaret & her child were not the only Starborn efforts Mab was making!
3b. My WAG (this portion of it) is that the Mallory's (specifically, Elaine; but also, her parents as much as Harry's parents) were another of Mab's plans, to get another Starborn option.  I expect there were yet others (because Mab gonna Mab!).
3c.  I also WAG that Justin was Mab's pawn in this:  Harry was Lea's Faerie-Godchild, under Lea's protection.  How did Justin find him?  Mab sold Harry to Justin (and no doubt got an excellent price from Justin... for getting Harry exactly where Mab wanted him to be).
3d.  If Justin was Mab's pawn (and Mab saw to it that Harry got to Justin) then potential-Starborn Elaine looks too similar to ignore, and like Mab did that one too (Mab/Lea certainly couldn't have overlooked Elaine at Justin's, so... ) .
(I could also see the whole "Mallorys as Starborn breeders" plan as Titania's work, but I think Mab is the one who's laying long-term plans quite that coldbloodedly.  I think Elaine went to Summer because -- at that point -- Harry was a lock for Winter, and Mab has her Thing about "balanced scales.")

... Possible, but I still think it was a conclusion Margaret came to on her own after being with Lord Raith for a while.  I think it very possible that Margaret actually did soul gaze Lord Raith and learned about the Hunger Demon and realized what it was.  I also think it's no real secret that at some point the BAT is coming and a leader hopefully a star born one would emerge.  Problem with that is until Margaret met Malcolm none of the star born were suitable because they were as bad or almost as bad as the Outsiders ...

I think it's very possible that Mab/Lea specifically aimed Maggie at Lord Raith:  she couldn't go to the Edinburgh library to learn more, after all!  And (per WoJ) Raith had a major library on the Outsider/Starborn/Apocalypse thing, because he had hoped/planned to be a "major player" in this cycle.  But I think Mab(Lea) had planted the seeds of the idea with Maggie, and then she needed more info (which she couldn't get from "regular wizard sources" (i.e. Edinburgh)).

I suppose it's possible that Maggie learned the Hunger Demon secret from Soulgazing Raith... but it seems profoundly unlikely.  Harry 'gazed Thomas and Lara, Carlos 'gazed Lara... I think wizards soulgazing Whampires cannot be all that rare an occurrence; and yet, the secret is not commonly known to the White Council.  Ergo, even Soulgaze isn't enough to spot their nature (which fits, actually -- not even Rashid in the center of his power (at the Gates that he Keeps) can reliably spot them).

I don't think the "coming Apocalypse" is actually all that well known.  It's obvious to the Really Big Powers, of course, and a few stupid-lucky wizards who somehow survive repeated poking their noses into the business of Faerie Queens and Denarians and Ancient Gods (like Odin & Hades)... but there's not actually many who survive that level of stupidity!  And it's not actually clear to Harry, even yet.

... Remember what Lash said about Margaret delibrately conceiving a star child with Malcolm because of his qualities.

That's not what Lash said:  she said Harry was born for a reason, but not that the reason was Margaret's.  I'm sure Margaret had her reasons, but I don't think those are what Lash was talking about.  I think when Margaret took up with Malcolm, turned her life around... her reasoning became much less comprehensible to the Fallen.

I think Margaret was just a pawn, and the "real" reason (from Lash's POV) were Mab's & Uriel's reasons.  I think that Margaret was unaware of those plans, and unaware that she had been manipulated so badly.   

... I agree that Uriel had a lot to do with putting Malcolm in Margaret's path.  I think Uriel was well aware of the need for a star born to fight the Outsiders but at the same time aware of the flaws in the star born.  Free will still enters the picture, Uriel couldn't make the two of them fall in love, all he could do is nudge here and there and hopefully love and free will would take it's course.

Agreed all 'round.

But I suspect Uriel had a really good idea what a profound effect Malcolm would have on Maggie.  Recall that early-Maggie was actually very idealistic, her "danger" was that her ideals were destabilizing and were unrealistic about "unintended consequences."  But she was good-hearted in her goals.  Later in life, she seems to have become embittered, cynical, etc.

Malcolm reignited her idealistic flames; Uriel knew the banked fires were still there, they just needed feeding... Malcolm fed her soul.

...  Justin didn't even try to be an example for Harry to follow, he had his own agenda as far as either Harry or Elaine goes.  Justin didn't care what kind of person either kid grew up to be as long as he could use them for his own purpose.

I know the Party Line about Justin.  I'm not certain that this isn't another fake-out from Jim; it's possible that Justin is another "secretly a good guy" figure.  But I'm far from sure of this idea!!!

[Mira]

No, that was absolutely a Lea/Margaret bargain:  the "Faerie Godmother" bargain to protect Harry, made before he was born (because she died in childbirth, and was busily Death-Cursing Raith (so no bargain could be made at that point)).

Yes, but was Mab in on that?   Oh I think the bargain was made before Harry was even conceived, that's what gets Harry so pissed, Margaret knew it was a death sentence, but Harry might feel she was talked into it anyway with the promise of his protection.

The point though is that -- if necessary -- Harry can and does work with people/entities that he distrusts... and even passionately hates.  So even if Harry thinks Lea had something to do with his mother's death and/or his father's -- it's still possible (after the frst shock and rage) that he'll be able to work with her, if it's truly needed (such as to protect his daughter).

Harry says he does trust Mab in 12 Months, in the early books he has no trust in Lea, and doesn't work with her, because he fears she is going to turn him into a hound. 

I agree with almost all of this; but I think Lea's ambitions were always to kill Mab and usurp her Mantle.  That ambition is why Mab chose her in the first place!

What Nemesis did, was allow Lea to cheat.  To use tactics/methods forbidden by Winter Law, that Lea normally would never have considered (and possibly been unable to use, 'cos Winter Law is pretty hardcore like that -- sometimes more "physical law" than "legal code").

Maybe Maeve was the "real" target; but maybe it was Mab herself!
Lea s Mab's Handmaiden, after all; not Maeve's.
But I suspect it was a bit more opportunistic than that -- if you Nemfect the #2 in the Winter Court, you get a huge number of new targets you didn't have before!  It's worth taking a year or ten, figuring out your best next move.

The whole Winter Court was the target. 

1.  Mab wanted to get a knight who was a powerful Starborn.

Yes

2.  To that end, she actually engaged in a "breeding program" to get Harry -- a strong "Salic Law" wizard born (on Halloween) from Margaret LaFey, and guided Maggie Sr. along the "starbabe plan" pathway.

Possible, but I don't think she was the only one, I think the White Council may have also been in on it.  They seem to know what Harry is, or what he is supposed to be..  That, hasn't been spelled out yet other than to say, "a destroyer."  Of what, whom, or why? No clue.  Based on what we've seen of Drakul and Listens, we can guess.  With Malcolm, Margaret threw a monkey wrench into whatever plans they had, because Harry didn't turn out quite as planned.

2a.  Much of Harry's life was subtly guided by Mab (and Lea, acting as Mab's Handmaiden).
3.  But we also know Mab is about all about backups, contingency-planning, etc.

Yes and no, we really don't have enough to go by.  After Malcolm died Harry spent the next five years in an orphanage, why?  Supposedly Lea was this kind lady who visited once in a while.  What did she do to protect him? Nothing, was Harry aware then that she was his fae godmother?  Doubtful, was she keeping Harry safe as promised or waiting to see if had talent when would it awake?  It's doubtful that a star born vanilla mortal would be of much use. Did that make the bargain nil and void? Then when the talent showed up, Harry needed to be trained, so who allerted Justin?  Not even Eb knew as he put it, "that Justin was an son of a bitch.   So when Harry ran off and was terrified, did Lea just show up and announce she was his godmother? Did she make the bargain knowing that at some point Mab would take over the contract depending on how Harry developed.  However when the Wardens got Harry, neither Lea nor Mab stepped in to help.  If he lost his head, he lost his head, they would switch to Elaine? The Senior Council seemed to know who's son Harry was, and supposedly that he was star born, yet were willing to chop off his head.. In steps Eb as Harry's advocate, odd don't you think that the Senior Council was unaware that Harry was Eb's grandson?  That's a bit weird too, why were they willing to risk the Blackstaff with the Doom, if Harry went warlock? Or knowing who Harry really was, confident that the Blackstaff would chop his head off?  Even now, the talk is of sending the Blackstaff after Harry. They still don't know that Eb is Harry's grandfather?

3d.  If Justin was Mab's pawn (and Mab saw to it that Harry got to Justin) then potential-Starborn Elaine looks too similar to ignore, and like Mab did that one too (Mab/Lea certainly couldn't have overlooked Elaine at Justin's, so... ) .
(I could also see the whole "Mallorys as Starborn breeders" plan as Titania's work, but I think Mab is the one who's laying long-term plans quite that coldbloodedly.  I think Elaine went to Summer because -- at that point -- Harry was a lock for Winter, and Mab has her Thing about "balanced scales.")

Problem with that, Mab needs a star born because of her charge of protecting the real world from the Outsiders.  So why would Summer need one?  There seems to be no rush to replace Fix as Summer Knight though the Summer Lady has changed twice now.  Or is that about to flip?

I suppose it's possible that Maggie learned the Hunger Demon secret from Soulgazing Raith... but it seems profoundly unlikely.  Harry 'gazed Thomas and Lara, Carlos 'gazed Lara... I think wizards soulgazing Whampires cannot be all that rare an occurrence; and yet, the secret is not commonly known to the White Council.  Ergo, even Soulgaze isn't enough to spot their nature (which fits, actually -- not even Rashid in the center of his power (at the Gates that he Keeps) can reliably spot them).

I don't think it is as easy as you think.  1] Lara tells Harry that how her people became infested and what is infesting them was a well kept secret in the Court. 2] In Blood Rites, Eb tells Harry he tried to kill Raith, but something protects him, he says nothing about the Hunger Demon, or that it is an Outsider.  However Eb sort of changed that story a bit in 12 Months as to why he couldn't or didn't kill him.   Harry gets close enough to Raith in Blood Rites to sense that Raith is possessed by a great emptiness, but Harry has no clue that the emptiness is an Outsider or the Hunger demon.  Not until Lash tells Harry about it, does he even suspect, but Harry thinks Vittorio is working with an Outsider, not that his Hunger demon is the Outsider, though some of us guessed as much.  So what seems obvious, isn't really.  I do think Margaret figured it out, that's why she was willing to conceive a star born child with the right man.  Remember in his soul gaze with Thomas, though Harry saw the Hunger, the struggle Thomas was having with it, he didn't recognize it as an Outsider.  He still had little clue as to what Outsiders were including He Who Walks Behind until Lash explained it to him.

That's not what Lash said:  she said Harry was born for a reason, but not that the reason was Margaret's.  I'm sure Margaret had her reasons, but I don't think those are what Lash was talking about.  I think when Margaret took up with Malcolm, turned her life around... her reasoning became much less comprehensible to the Fallen.

I think Margaret was just a pawn, and the "real" reason (from Lash's POV) were Mab's & Uriel's reasons.  I think that Margaret was unaware of those plans, and unaware that she had been manipulated so badly.   

I think it's a bit more complicated, and I believe that in the end Margaret did turn the tables on them, she conceived Harry with Malcolm for her own reasons, their decision, one else's. Free will cannot be messed with.

But I suspect Uriel had a really good idea what a profound effect Malcolm would have on Maggie.  Recall that early-Maggie was actually very idealistic, her "danger" was that her ideals were destabilizing and were unrealistic about "unintended consequences."  But she was good-hearted in her goals.  Later in life, she seems to have become embittered, cynical, etc.

Malcolm reignited her idealistic flames; Uriel knew the banked fires were still there, they just needed feeding... Malcolm fed her soul.

It's still about free will, about choices, Uriel maybe could set the table, but it was up to Margaret and Malcolm to chose to dine together.  Like the gift of Soul Fire, Uriel gave it to Harry, but gave him no clue as to when or how to use it, Harry was left to make his own choices on that.

I know the Party Line about Justin.  I'm not certain that this isn't another fake-out from Jim; it's possible that Justin is another "secretly a good guy" figure.  But I'm far from sure of this idea!!!

Don't think so, because of Bob.  Justin stole Bob when the Wardens killed Kemmler, then chose to keep Bob as he was.  At some point Justin became corrupted even before the Wardens got Kemmler.  Interesting that Justin retired soon after, if Kemmler had escaped would he have been the one to adopt Harry and Elaine? Was it Bob who told Justin about Harry and Elaine, and did Justin think he could outsmart everyone?  Interesting that the White Council says that Harry was meant to be a destroyer, and Justin raised him to be an enforcer.   Need to go back to Ghost Story and reread the interaction between HWWB and young Harry.  Could it be that the Outsiders thought Harry could  be their man instead of the other way around?  The answers to that are rather murky at this point.

One more crazy thought just entered my head, could it be that it was really Justin who murdered Malcolm because of information he got from "Evil Bob"?  Then did he sit back, keeping track until Harry's talent awakened, then adopted him?  What happened to
Elaine's parents?  Were they mysteriously murdered as well?