Mab Isn't Evil, Is Harry Beginning to Understand Her Now?

[Mira]

  Oh Mab is ruthless, she's cruel, she can be wicked, she will do whatever is necessary to gain advantage.  That's Winter, it is what it is.. However Mab isn't evil, she has a job to do, that is to protect the real world from the Outside.  I think Harry is beginning to understand those hard facts, that's why he stood up beside her in that face off with Mother Winter.  Harry gets it, he is also beginning to understand the full implications of Uriel's seven words to him.  I think it is finally sinking in, though often stated before that Mab has a job to do, and his job is to help her do it, some of that may not be pretty, but it doesn't have to make him evil if he doesn't want it to.  I think Rashid gets it, has for several centuries now, that's why he does what he does at the Outer Gates. 

A lot of people didn't like what the final solution for Thomas, Justine, and baby was, but was there another way?  Not really,Etri is old school, very old school, they are very serious about an "eye for an eye."  Actually it is a miracle that Mab got as much compromise from him as she did.  Yes, Thomas is losing his child, but his child will continue to live and be well cared for, and Thomas will live.. Hopefully in the end Thomas will come out the wiser for it.  Justine hopefully will be cured and return to Thomas.  The cure won't be pleasant, but what are the alternatives for her?  Mab had her own child killed because she came to the conclusion that the possession of Maeve had gone too far and she couldn't be cured.  Justine is human not Fae, so the cure may not work on her, yet Mab is willing to try because Harry is asking her to.  Yes, it was a boon to him, yet Mab had a way out of agreeing to that.  She could simply have said that her ice cure won't work on a mortal human.  Or there is no evidence that it would, not exactly lie, which the Fae can't do, but decieve, which they can do.  However she is willing to try, no Mab isn't evil, but she is hard, very hard.

[magnuskn]

Well, I'd say in Twelve Months she was a little back to doing pretty much evil stuff and actively trying to get Harry to be less human (as she noted to Mother Winter). But overall, I agree that the more we have gotten to know her, the more she has been humanized.

[Mira]

Well, I'd say in Twelve Months she was a little back to doing pretty much evil stuff and actively trying to get Harry to be less human (as she noted to Mother Winter). But overall, I agree that the more we have gotten to know her, the more she has been humanized.

We see it as evil because we don't understand it, or what she does is evil from the human perspective.  However Mab does play pretty much with in the rules, but she plays a very hard game because she has to.  Harry doesn't care for her way, but understands them, and knows she cannot corrupt him if he doesn't let her.   In the end it's his choice, remember Uriel's seven words to Harry.

page 475 Ghost Story

"Lies.  Mab cannot change who you are."

What Harry becomes, is his choice in the end.  And Harry has changed in his thinking as he matures, one, is his views on would be warlocks.  In Proven Guilty he debated the Merlin and was appalled by the beheading of some many young and talented would be wizards because they took a wrong turn out of ignorance towards warlockhood.  He now understands what the Merlin was saying, not enough wizards willing to take up the Doom to reform a kid gone bad, how hard it is to reform a kid who has gotten a taste for the black.  Harry is very blunt with Bock and April, about how dangerous and wrong the game is,they are playing, even though he understands they are just trying to protect themselves and the neighborhood.  Harry is also very blunt about what will happen if they don't take his warning seriously and the Wardens come in and heads roll.  Harry is also very clear that he has no sympathy for them if it happened, he now understands that it is necessary.  That's a huge change from the younger Harry of Proven Guilty

Seems a little off subject I know, but it isn't.  Mother Winters is critical of Mab's choice because she thinks Harry is too soft.
However Harry has become harder, like Mab, because it is what has to be done, but she nor anyone else can make him evil, that's up to him and no one else.

[g33k]

Mab I think has drifted rather far from her "human" origins.  She doesn't mean to be evil, but she no longer understands what that is, not really.

She sees her hardness and coldness and ruthlessness as some of her key strengths, and she's trying to encourage these in Harry, to make him stronger.  She sees love as a weakness, something she regularly exploits in others... and to the extent she still feels it, it pains her bitterly, gives her hesitation, undermines her ruthless resolve.  So she's trying to wean Harry away from those human connections and human loves.

And so -- sometimes -- Mab does indeed do "evil" things, not realizing what she does.
 

[Mira]

Mab I think has drifted rather far from her "human" origins.  She doesn't mean to be evil, but she no longer understands what that is, not really.

  The biggest tell that Mab isn't evil for all the appearance of it is the fact that she does work with Uriel.  I don't think Uriel would be allowed to work with her if she was.  She is also doing all she can to protect the real world from the Outside.  I really don't think it matters how far she has drifted from her human origins one way or the other.  After all lots of humans are pure evil.

She sees her hardness and coldness and ruthlessness as some of her key strengths, and she's trying to encourage these in Harry, to make him stronger.  She sees love as a weakness, something she regularly exploits in others... and to the extent she still feels it, it pains her bitterly, gives her hesitation, undermines her ruthless resolve.  So she's trying to wean Harry away from those human connections and human loves.

Mab is a force of nature, winter is neither good nor evil, it just is, with all it's coldness, hardness, and cruelty.  Yet, for balance in the world we live in, winter is necessary.   Those aren't cherished human values for sure, but maybe traits needed in the battle ahead.  I think she is teaching Harry and he has choices as to how hard, cold, or cruel he has to be and not compromise who he is and actually become these things, that's what Uriel's seven words are all about.  And Harry has evolved the more he sees and experiences in the world, example of this is how his attitude about the beheading of young would be warlocks has evolved since Proven Guilty.

And so -- sometimes -- Mab does indeed do "evil" things, not realizing what she does.

Oh I think Mab is very aware of what she is doing, she just looks at it differently from how you, I, or Harry would look at it.  She chooses carefully and does what she thinks is needed to benefit her task, i.e. to keep the world and us safe from the Outside.  In other words, if it gets done what she needs to get done, she doesn't lose any sleep over whether some would consider it good or evil.

[g33k]

Remember, though... the very first time they met, the very first deal of Harry's (due to Mab having "bought out" the bargain with Lea; as she left, she hurt Harry just to hurt him.

He challenged her over that, and she explicitly said (so we can be assured it was true) that she did it out of spite.

It may not be a vast cosmic capital-E-Evil... but -- even if a tiny thing on the scale that Mab works -- hurting someone for spite is evil.

[Mira]

Remember, though... the very first time they met, the very first deal of Harry's (due to Mab having "bought out" the bargain with Lea; as she left, she hurt Harry just to hurt him.

No, there was a point to it, she was making a point, she could control him.  It wasn't pain, for pain's sake, Mab was teaching Harry an important lesson, she had his contract, she could make him do stuff which he argued she couldn't.  So Mab forced him to impale his hand on the letter spike.   Mab believes pain can be a good teacher, one that Harry believed, one that he believed so well, that he was willing to kill himself because he feared by becoming her Knight he was becoming her complete puppet.

He challenged her over that, and she explicitly said (so we can be assured it was true) that she did it out of spite.

No, it wasn't out of spite, she had a point to make, and she made it.

It may not be a vast cosmic capital-E-Evil... but -- even if a tiny thing on the scale that Mab works -- hurting someone for spite is evil.

No, it was a teachable moment, as Mab would say, Harry didn't believe she had his contract with Lea, nor did he believe she could make him do what she wanted. Not exactly true if we are to believe Uriel's seven words, but Mab only had to deceive.  She wasn't lying because she could and can make Harry do anything she wants him to do.. However it was also a deception or bit of a lie, because while she can force him to do just about anything, she can't change him if he doesn't want to be changed.  Harry understands that now, he didn't when he agreed to become her Knight.

[g33k]

No, there was a point to it, she was making a point, she could control him.  It wasn't pain, for pain's sake, Mab was teaching Harry an important lesson, she had his contract, she could make him do stuff which he argued she couldn't.  So Mab forced him to impale his hand on the letter spike.   Mab believes pain can be a good teacher, one that Harry believed, one that he believed so well, that he was willing to kill himself because he feared by becoming her Knight he was becoming her complete puppet.
No, it wasn't out of spite, she had a point to make, and she made it.
No, it was a teachable moment, as Mab would say, Harry didn't believe she had his contract with Lea, nor did he believe she could make him do what she wanted. Not exactly true if we are to believe Uriel's seven words, but Mab only had to deceive.  She wasn't lying because she could and can make Harry do anything she wants him to do.. However it was also a deception or bit of a lie, because while she can force him to do just about anything, she can't change him if he doesn't want to be changed.  Harry understands that now, he didn't when he agreed to become her Knight. 

You are remembering a different moment.
You describe correctly the one where she "proves to him" that she has his contract, by forcing him to stab himself.

Later -- as she's departing -- she hurts him, directly.
It's that moment she says, she did it out of spite.

[Snark Knight]

Later -- as she's departing -- she hurts him, directly.
It's that moment she says, she did it out of spite.

The queens are all about layers within layers.  It was spite on the surface - he behaved rudely by showing up late and flicking an iron nail at her to test her, so she had grounds to hurt him for spite, in her logic.

But he was also congratulating himself on thinking he'd figured out a deal the covered the only reason he assumed she'd want to hurt him.  Injuring him for spite after his disrespect was a lesson - you're not as clever as you think you are, so stop operating on ANY assumptions about the Sidhe.  Hurting him may well have indirectly saved his life or his sanity when he had to interact with Maeve and Aurora later.

[Mira]

You are remembering a different moment.
You describe correctly the one where she "proves to him" that she has his contract, by forcing him to stab himself.

Later -- as she's departing -- she hurts him, directly.
It's that moment she says, she did it out of spite.

She does, but that doesn't mean that she is, not when you look at it in context.  Mab is still making a point, that she has power over Harry.  She did it because she can, because Harry can't stop from doing it, it underscores the point she originally made. Cruel? Yes, but it doesn't make her evil.  Mab does what she has to do for the greater good, in this case keeping our world safe from Outsiders.

The queens are all about layers within layers.  It was spite on the surface - he behaved rudely by showing up late and flicking an iron nail at her to test her, so she had grounds to hurt him for spite, in her logic.

But he was also congratulating himself on thinking he'd figured out a deal the covered the only reason he assumed she'd want to hurt him.  Injuring him for spite after his disrespect was a lesson - you're not as clever as you think you are, so stop operating on ANY assumptions about the Sidhe.  Hurting him may well have indirectly saved his life or his sanity when he had to interact with Maeve and Aurora later

Yes, and one has to keep in mind that the Fae don't think like vanilla humans do.  Mab was human once, but that was a long time ago.  Mab does feel like she is teaching Harry to be tough, because in the final BAT she believes that is what is needed to win.  She also has to satisfy Mother Winter who still has her doubts, not just about Harry but Mab as well.  It could well be that the twist in the series is that merci will save the day, but at the moment it doesn't look that way.