Harry talking to his subconscious in Twelve Months - Your opinions

[KurtinStGeorge]

I just wanted to ask what everyone else thought of the single conversation Harry had with his subconscious; or ID as Harry thinks of it?

I was a little disappointed how short the conversation was and the fact we didn't get a follow up conversation.  Especially as Harry cut the conversation short when he threw a water glass against the wall.  I think some of the conversations Harry has had with his other self in some of the earlier books have been far better.

Much more important, I was puzzled by some elements in the conversation itself.  I'm going to have grab the book for this.  After subconscious Harry unsuccessfully tries to give Harry some good advice and gets foul language back in return, he makes this statement.  "But have you ever considered that life with Lara would have its advantages?"  This appears typical for other-Harry, thinking about sex over long-term considerations, like becoming enslaved by Lara.  But then other-Harry gives hung over but conscious Harry a warning.  "Watch Lara more closely.  You haven't been seeing the same things I have."  Or was it a warning at all?  Because a few sentences down other-Harry says this.  "Thomas and Justine seemed happy together.  What if you could strike a balance like that?"

This confuses me and it creates a missed opportunity within the story.  Whether Harry's subconscious was telling Harry to watch Lara more closely as a warning that she was up to something or it was an attempt to tell conscious Harry that Lara was being sincere; because that seems like the only reasonable alternative, there was never any follow up.  Harry never thought about it later or confronted Lara about something he finally realized, some clue about the way Lara moved that tipped him off what her true intentions were.  Unless it was something really subtle that I missed.

I'm not sure how to describe it.  It makes me think of Chekhov's Gun, but where the writer makes the mistake of never using or mentioning the gun again.  What did you think of this conversation?   

[Xamion]

"Watch Lara more closely.  You haven't been seeing the same things I have." 

I believe this was ID-Harry (correctly) pointing out what was actually happening to Lara, and in essence what Mab's real objective was in all this. Since it was consistently made pretty clear throughout the book, that Harry was operating on very low performance levels mentally and emotionally, due to the fallout of PT/BG, this was again a hint that our subconscious knows a lot more than our conscious, given that it has access to 90+% of our brain's "raw" computing power (and this is where the popular myth actually comes from) and *all* information inputs from our body. Deep down inside, Harry absolutely had all the hints and information he needed to actually "outplay" Mab and the situations he was in, but just wasn't in the right state of mind to make use of them, a.k.a. his consistent character "Fatal Flaw."

[LaraBeck]

Yeah, I'm a little intrigued by this as well, to me it feels like there's something hanging in the air. Maybe it was just about realizing what Mab was doing, but the conversation is not really about Mab. By the context, though, how IDHarry speaks about being with Lara as some sort of positive, I'm inclined to think that Harry was missing something good about her?

But I dunno, IDHarry has also said a bunch of things that are not necessarily right or a reflexion of what Harry wanted or should do, like the thing in Skin Game about him waiting on Molly.

I'm also intrigued by the fact that, if I'm not forgetting something, this is the first time Harry sees IDHarry outside a dream, for the first time, Harry was effectively awake when they have this conversation.

[Bad Alias]

I'm also intrigued by the fact that, if I'm not forgetting something, this is the first time Harry sees IDHarry outside a dream, for the first time, Harry was effectively awake when they have this conversation.

I think this is at least half the point of ID Harry's appearance. To show us how broken his mind is.

I think the other point is to suggest Lara is either sincerely seeking a partnership with Harry (unlikely due to the content of the negotiations concerning control) or sincerely interested in Harry in ways that could result in a reasonably healthy relationship for a wizard and vampire.

[Mira]

I think the other point is to suggest Lara is either sincerely seeking a partnership with Harry (unlikely due to the content of the negotiations concerning control) or sincerely interested in Harry in ways that could result in a reasonably healthy relationship for a wizard and vampire.

Which she isn't, she is as upfront about it as Harry is, unless she is lying, she isn't happy about being forced into this relationship either.  It could become a reasonably healthy relationship now because all the cards are on the table as far as what Lara is and what Harry is.  If it wasn't for her being a vampire, I think Lara is the best fit for Harry on an intellectual level. 

One thing not mentioned in this thread is Harry's question as to whether Harry truly loved Murphy or she loved him?  I have to go back and reread, but that's what caused him to throw the glass against the wall.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Which she isn't, she is as upfront about it as Harry is, unless she is lying, she isn't happy about being forced into this relationship either.  It could become a reasonably healthy relationship now because all the cards are on the table as far as what Lara is and what Harry is.  If it wasn't for her being a vampire, I think Lara is the best fit for Harry on an intellectual level. 

One thing not mentioned in this thread is Harry's question as to whether Harry truly loved Murphy or she loved him?  I have to go back and reread, but that's what caused him to throw the glass against the wall.

That was a separate issue that I didn't want to address at the time, but I will do so now.

From the standpoint of logic, Harry doubting that Murphy loved him makes no sense.  Murphy loved Harry when he broke Thomas out of the castle; and Harry knows this because Lara was burned when she touched him during the rescue.  Harry would have to believe something had radically changed in the last few hours of Karin Murphy's life that made her fall out of love with him to doubt what he briefly had with her.

Of course, the counter to this argument is Harry isn't using logic and reason and he is in tremendous emotional pain.  On top of the grief and PTSD he's suffering through, Harry is doing his usual guilt and self blame routine he goes through every time something bad happens to someone around him that he even remotely cares about.  Harry really needs therapy to understand why he does this, because it is not healthy and can be self-defeating, but that is another topic.

I think the most important thing to understand is, at this point of the conversation subconscious-Harry isn't saying anything that is a revelation to regular / outside Harry.  This is not a "you are not seeing what I am seeing" moment.  Both sides of Harry's personality are in agreement here and this is what makes Harry so angry that he breaks off the conversation by throwing the glass.  Harry is so low at this point, both aspects of Harry no longer believe they deserve to be loved.

Side issue: This also means there was never any chance Harry and Lara could fall in love; at least not at this time, as some Harry / Lara shippers would have liked.  Harry's self loathing made this impossible.   

[Bad Alias]

Which she isn't, she is as upfront about it as Harry is, unless she is lying, she isn't happy about being forced into this relationship either.

I don't think being unhappy about Mab's proposed method of alliance is the same as Harry and/or Lara not wanting the best partnership possible between them.

This is not a "you are not seeing what I am seeing" moment.

But he literally says that, so there has to be something. Right? At the Halloween party, Lara demonstrated that she could have forced the issue in a way that looked to be entirely in her favor. Why didn't she? Because she sincerely wanted some kind of partnership with Harry? Because he wouldn't be the first wizard in his family to escape the snares of a White Court monarch if she went for control that way?

I agree with everything you said about Murphy loving Harry and his mental state.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I don't think being unhappy about Mab's proposed method of alliance is the same as Harry and/or Lara not wanting the best partnership possible between them.
But he literally says that, so there has to be something. Right? At the Halloween party, Lara demonstrated that she could have forced the issue in a way that looked to be entirely in her favor. Why didn't she? Because she sincerely wanted some kind of partnership with Harry? Because he wouldn't be the first wizard in his family to escape the snares of a White Court monarch if she went for control that way?

I agree with everything you said about Murphy loving Harry and his mental state.

I didn’t make myself clear.  When subconscious Harry said “You aren’t seeing what I’m seeing,” he’s referring to Lara and her alone.  When subconscious Harry is questioning Murphy’s love for Harry, it is exactly what conscious Harry is already doing.  Harry’s subconscious isn’t revealing anything his conscious mind isn’t already thinking. 

That is why I said, this is not a “You are not seeing what I am seeing” moment.

[Bad Alias]

So you were saying subconscious Harry isn't revealing any Murphy stuff Harry isn't already aware of?

[KurtinStGeorge]

So you were saying subconscious Harry isn't revealing any Murphy stuff Harry isn't already aware of?

Exactly that.  That is why Harry became so upset.  His subconscious was telling Harry the exact same thing when he was probably hoping his subconscious would contradict him, as it often does on other issues.

[Bad Alias]

Well, I'm glad I misunderstood you because it caused me to think of a motivation for Lara to not simply addict Harry to her. Lord Raith already lost a wizard trying it that way.

[Mira]

Exactly that.  That is why Harry became so upset.  His subconscious was telling Harry the exact same thing when he was probably hoping his subconscious would contradict him, as it often does on other issues.

Yeah, I reread that section last night.  Harry's subconscious first points out that Lara has many good points and that it could work between them.  Then his subconscious further points out that Thomas and Justine were happy, then further points out why Lara's kiss didn't burn him. Calls into question if it was really true love between Harry and Murphy?  Then adds the most important point, it's about balance. That's when Harry throws the glass against the wall.  Balance, that is the key, and that's what haunts Harry in his grief more than anything.  Was their relationship one of real true love?  Or more of codependency?  I think Harry is wondering too.

Why do I say this you may ask.

1] The soul gaze or lack there of, not until she was dying and nothing found out how she feels on the whole.  Question, why on earth did they wait so long for a soul gaze?   I think Jim did that on purpose so we'd wonder, and Harry also wonders.  Harry isn't really the most self confident guy, in some things he is, his will, power, etc. he is very confident.  However his confidence in his past romantic relationships?  A little shaky, so that hint of doubt.

2]  Have you noticed that Harry really depended on Murphy's judgement, more than his own.  In Cold Days she refused to give him back the Swords though he was appointed their Custodian, not her.  She convinced him that somehow she was morally superior or gave that impression and he wasn't especially because he felt doubt since he was Winter Knight now.  Even Michael told him this was something she took upon herself, and he went along with it.  He tried to tell her not to bring the Sword of Faith with her when they went to confront Nick.  She did anyway, relying on her judgement, not listening to Harry.  Okay, you could say it was out of love, but it also was out of arrogance that she knew better.  My point, one sided, and Harry went along with it. 

3] As Mab told him in their confrontation, when Harry blames her for the banner which enabled Murphy to enter the fray though she wasn't physically up to it.  Mab points out Murphy made that decision on her own, yet again ignoring Harry.  Yeah,yeah, Harry's fear for her, over protective, yada, yada,yada..  However his judgement in this case was correct, but he still went along with her.  No discussion as equals, no compromise as equals would do.  What I personally found annoying about Murphy since Changes was she was sounding more like Harry's mom than an equal.  Harry also became increasingly dependent on her judgement, that's why I say it had become a codependent relationship, which can be mistaken for true love.   That's what was feeding Harry's guilt during the worst of his grief, why he felt responsible because he never really spoke up when he should have and it cost Murphy her life.

Back to Lara and Harry, that kind of dependency isn't there!  Even when Mab was happy as hell because she thought Lara was completely dependent on Harry now.  That wasn't the type of relationship Harry wants, and I think his subconscious could explain it to him now very well.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Yeah, I reread that section last night.  Harry's subconscious first points out that Lara has many good points and that it could work between them.  Then his subconscious further points out that Thomas and Justine were happy, then further points out why Lara's kiss didn't burn him. Calls into question if it was really true love between Harry and Murphy?  Then adds the most important point, it's about balance. That's when Harry throws the glass against the wall.  Balance, that is the key, and that's what haunts Harry in his grief more than anything.  Was their relationship one of real true love?  Or more of codependency?  I think Harry is wondering too.

Why do I say this you may ask.

1] The soul gaze or lack there of, not until she was dying and nothing found out how she feels on the whole.  I think Jim did that on purpose so we'd wonder, and Harry also wonders.  Harry isn't really the most self confident guy, in some things he is, his will, power, etc. he is very confident.  However his confidence in his past romantic relationships?  A little shaky, so that hint of doubt.

2]  Have you noticed that Harry really depended on Murphy's judgement, more than his own.  In Cold Days she refused to give him back the Swords though he was appointed their Custodian, not her.  She convinced him that somehow she was morally superior or gave that impression and he wasn't especially because he felt doubt since he was Winter Knight now.  Even Michael told him this was something she took upon herself, and he went along with it.  He tried to tell her not to bring the Sword of Faith with her when they went to confront Nick.  She did anyway, relying on her judgement, not listening to Harry.  Okay, you could say it was out of love, but it also was out of arrogance that she knew better.  My point, one sided, and Harry went along with it. 

3] As Mab told him in their confrontation, when Harry blames her for the banner which enabled Murphy to enter the fray though she wasn't physically up to it.  Mab points out Murphy made that decision on her own, yet again ignoring Harry.  Yeah,yeah, Harry's fear for her, over protective, yada, yada,yada..  However his judgement in this case was correct, but he still went along with her.  No discussion as equals, no compromise as equals would do.  What I personally found annoying about Murphy since Changes was she was sounding more like Harry's mom than an equal.  Harry also became increasingly dependent on her judgement, that's why I say it had become a codependent relationship, which can be mistaken for true love.   That's what was feeding Harry's guilt during the worst of his grief, why he felt responsible because he never really spoke up when he should have and it cost Murphy her life.

Back to Lara and Harry, that kind of dependency isn't there!  Even when Mab was happy as hell because she thought Lara was completely dependent on Harry now.  That wasn't the type of relationship Harry wants, and I think his subconscious could explain it to him now very well.

There is one obvious flaw with your analysis.  Explain why Lara got burned when she touched Harry when they broke Thomas out of the castle.  A codependent relationship shouldn't produce that effect.  (Unless it would, but that seems unlikely.  I think it would undercut the very idea of true love protection.)

I suppose you might counter that the true love Harry and Karin felt for one another ended when Harry fell into codependency when he accepted Karin's judgement for his own.  But did he?  I'd have to reread that part of BG again, but I remember Harry leaving Karin behind.  She got on her Harley on her own and rejoined the battle on her own.  What was Harry going to do at that point, forbid Karin from remaining with him?  Maybe, but according to Ms. Gard, Harry would have died if he had done that. 

I don't have an issue with your analysis of Karrin Murphy herself.  I think we are largely in agreement that as a character, Murphy started to go off the rails in Cold Days.  To get to the heart of the matter, I don't think Jim did a very good job of writing her after Ghost Story.  At least in Ghost Story we could see that without Harry, Karrin Murphy was starting to become brittle and was on the verge of cracking up. 

In Cold Days and Skin Game, Murphy would have been made more sense and also would have been far more relatable if her attitude had been something like, "I know your not alright Harry, because the same look I see on your face now, I saw in the mirror everyday while you were gone."  Instead of acting in an accusatory manner, Murphy could have been the character who understood that even though Harry suffered severe emotional trauma, recovery was possible because she was recovering.  I think it would have made Murphy bringing the sword with her in Skin Game a much more excusable offense.  I huge mistake but an understandable one.  Plus, it would have seemed a far less arrogant decision.

Maybe this is a problem that can occur when any author is attempting to write such a large number of novels in one series.  Many people think continuity errors are where a series like the Dresden Files will start to go wrong.  That can happen, but perhaps another and maybe larger problem is character logic and consistency start getting lost.  As I understand it, Jim has a one or two page outline that he started with ideas for what would happen to Harry in each novel.  According to one description of it I have heard, it is a very simple description of events that will happen in each novel.  Dead Beat might have an entry that reads, "Harry must stop three necromancers from making one of there number into an immortal demi god.  Harry will learn necromancy and raise the spirit of a 67 million year old T-Rex in order to fight the necromancers."  Nothing about how Harry and supporting characters will grow or progress through each novel.  Without such an outline some characters behavior may become illogical and, or inconsistent, just like Karrin Murphy became.

[Mira]

I suppose you might counter that the true love Harry and Karin felt for one another ended when Harry fell into codependency when he accepted Karin's judgement for his own.  But did he?  I'd have to reread that part of BG again, but I remember Harry leaving Karin behind.  She got on her Harley on her own and rejoined the battle on her own.  What was Harry going to do at that point, forbid Karin from remaining with him?  Maybe, but according to Ms. Gard, Harry would have died if he had done that.

The problem came before that though, when they were on her bed and she cut her own cast off.  That is when something should have said by Harry!  Nothing was said, though in the real world anyone who has worn a cast for any amount of time knows that strength and movement afterward is difficult.  Even with on going physical therapy during the healing process.  Without Mab's spell, Murphy would have been close to useless.  Murphy would have been frustrated for sure, but in her condition she wouldn't have been any help, worse yet, she could have gotten Harry killed trying to protect her!  As a warrior, she should have known that, and stayed behind. 

There is one obvious flaw with your analysis.  Explain why Lara got burned when she touched Harry when they broke Thomas out of the castle.  A codependent relationship shouldn't produce that effect.  (Unless it would, but that seems unlikely.  I think it would undercut the very idea of true love protection.)

However what blows that is true love shouldn't have ended so easily, and whether Lara was well fed at the moment shouldn't have made any difference.  Nor should Harry's grief and self loathing at the moment make any difference.  You could just as easily say that at the time touch burnt Lara, Harry thought what he felt for Murphy was true love.  Maybe that's enough to cause a burn?  Harry and Murphy were just beginning the "second phase" of their relationship, the sexual phase, maybe that's what made the difference?  However if it was true love, why was his subconscious able to give Harry pause and doubt?

Maybe this is a problem that can occur when any author is attempting to write such a large number of novels in one series.  Many people think continuity errors are where a series like the Dresden Files will start to go wrong.  That can happen, but perhaps another and maybe larger problem is character logic and consistency start getting lost.  As I understand it, Jim has a one or two page outline that he started with ideas for what would happen to Harry in each novel.  According to one description of it I have heard, it is a very simple description of events that will happen in each novel.  Dead Beat might have an entry that reads, "Harry must stop three necromancers from making one of there number into an immortal demi god.  Harry will learn necromancy and raise the spirit of a 67 million year old T-Rex in order to fight the necromancers."  Nothing about how Harry and supporting characters will grow or progress through each novel.  Without such an outline some characters behavior may become illogical and, or inconsistent, just like Karrin Murphy became.

This is where the problem lies I think, and the problem of a super long series, and trying to write one or two other long series at the same time.  Back to true love's protection in it's original concept protecting one from a White Court Vamp, it was so cool, and written as an absolute. However now because it gets in the way of the series moving, true love's protection still protecting? Well, not so much!  If Harry's true love for Murphy didn't burn Lara because she had recently fed well, then you could easily say Harry's infatuation for Murphy, and not true love, burned Lara in Peace Talks because she was very hungry. 

The real inconsistency is the idea that Harry's guilt and self loathing during the grieving process has neutralized the true love's protection.  It isn't like Harry hasn't been in this state before, he has.  When Susan was half turned and left him, Harry went into a clinical depression, plenty of guilt, self loathing, etc., yes, he finally came out of that, but his true love's protection should have been shot, right?  Yet in White Night we have him burning the hell out of Lara's lips five years after Susan left him because he hadn't had sex with another woman since her.  Supposedly that protection was finally blown when he had his short affair with Luccio.

[Bad Alias]

@Kurtin, Murphy started out irrational. She got better until her and Butters flip flopped over who would be suspicious of Harry, starting in Ghost Story.

@Mira, True Love Protection was never absolute. Harry's protection was weak than Arturo's, so we know time is a factor. If something like time is a factor, it is not unreasonable to assume there are other factors.