[12M spoiler] From thirteen puppets you are now twelve?

[knightedbishop]

Mab says this to Nemesis. What does she mean? I have not carefully re-read the books. I remember the knife introduced the infection into the Winter Court. Bianca gave it to Leanansidhe, who was infected. Leanansidhe infected Maeve (according to Mab, I believe she explained this to Harry at the end of Cold Days). Cait Sith was infected. And now Justine.

That makes four nem-fected. Mab torture-cured Leanansidhe. Harry eliminated Maeve. Cait Sith’s status is unknown.

I thought 13 might refer to the number of nem-fected, but if that’s the reference that Mab has removed at least two of Nemesis’ puppets (Leanansidhe and Maeve), so should she say from 13 you’re now 11, soon to be 10?

If she’s counting off something else…any idea what it is?

[Bad Alias]

I think she is saying she captured 1/13th of Nemesis when she cured Lea and she is going to capture another 1/13th from Justine.

[Dina]

I think she is saying she captured 1/13th of Nemesis when she cured Lea and she is going to capture another 1/13th from Justine.

I interpreted it the same way. I believe the one in Maeve flew and found a new host. The ones in Lea and Justine were trapped. Are imagine the remaining 11 are infiltrated among all the super nations (one in Cat Sith, I guess). I thought it would be hilarious if one of them were in one of those Black Court elders Dresden reduced to purée, but realistically I don't think Nemesis can go too close to Drakul without being spotted.

[Snark Knight]

I interpreted it the same way. I believe the one in Maeve flew and found a new host. The ones in Lea and Justine were trapped. Are imagine the remaining 11 are infiltrated among all the super nations (one in Cat Sith, I guess). I thought it would be hilarious if one of them were in one of those Black Court elders Dresden reduced to purée, but realistically I don't think Nemesis can go too close to Drakul without being spotted.

Drakul is probably already outsider-aligned - might BE another outsider, trapped within the body of another of the sorcerer-kings. (Maybe)

I suppose there's merit to Nemesis spying even on its allies to watch against treachery, but if it's constrained to eleven - ten, if it hasn't dumped Cat Sith for a new host - would monitoring allies really make the priority cutoff?

[Bad Alias]

Drakul is probably already outsider-aligned - might BE another outsider, trapped within the body of another of the sorcerer-kings. (Maybe)

I suppose there's merit to Nemesis spying even on its allies to watch against treachery, but if it's constrained to eleven - ten, if it hasn't dumped Cat Sith for a new host - would monitoring allies really make the priority cutoff?

Agree, especially since you used qualifiers.

[prince lotore]

Drakul is star born the outsiders can't touch him and if he joined him mab would not have told Harry that she might need him in a couple thousand years

[Dina]

Yes, I actually think Drakul is going to help in the fight against the Outsiders. He is a monster, but it is a monster of this side.

[Bad Alias]

I think Drakul is the kind of guy who would take up the one ring use against Sauron, so he is probably using Outsiders in a way that is a net negative for reality.

[Snark Knight]

Drakul is star born the outsiders can't touch him and if he joined him mab would not have told Harry that she might need him in a couple thousand years

I don't think starborn confers utter immunity - Harry himself has had close calls with Outsider mental domination almost getting to him.  It gives a mortal the capacity to resist, if their will is strong enough.

Mab's neutrality towards Drakul is a point against him being an outsider.  But, then again, I find it a bit odd that she's willing to have an entire nation of definite Outsider hosts in the White Court as Accords members.

[Dina]

Agree with all that, Snark Knight.

[TrueMonk]

I do not think they are wholly outsiders though. They were the spawn of the outsider and a human, so they are something in between maybe?

Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?

[Mira]

I don't think starborn confers utter immunity - Harry himself has had close calls with Outsider mental domination almost getting to him.  It gives a mortal the capacity to resist, if their will is strong enough.

Or being a Starborn might mean different things or convey different powers depending on the Starborn.  Maybe not all Starborn have power over Outsiders?  Or maybe more plausible Starborn have the power to cooperate with Outsiders? I mean with the exception of Harry, the other two Listens and Drakul seem like they might be Outsider team players.  I wonder for example if Lord Raith isn't a Starborn, and that's why he seems to have the protection he has?  If I remember from Blood Rites Eb said he tried and couldn't kill Lord Raith, but in Twelve Months he gave a bit different explaination as to why he wasn't able to kill him.  In Blood Rites Harry says he felt a "cold empty" something or other in Lord Raith, protecting him, have to go back and read it, but now since we know now that the Hunger is Outsider, that would make sense, that being Starborn, Lord Raith would have a bit more protection. 

[Bad Alias]

Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?

That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.

[Xamion]

That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.

Well, the preceding sentence from Mab is "Already has Mab vanquished thee once."
That (to me) implies that only Lea's "treatment" (which was apparently the first time Mab successfully applied it) ever resulted in "getting rid of the outsider," but it still does not clearly state whether it was completely destroyed, or just (permanently?) banished from the "material" universe.

Otherwise, I get the impression throughout the series that these 13 outsiders that got into the material universe are completely indestructible and "unremovable" by 99.999999999999999999999999% of methods.

[KurtinStGeorge]

To consider the title of this thread, we should count who we know have been taken over by Nemesis and add names who could have been infested to hopefully get a better picture of who the 13 puppets are or were.

Aurora, Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith and Justine make five.  Who else should we consider adding to the list?  I think there are a fair number of people; and not people, to consider, even if we don't add all of them.

Victor Sells, Kravos the Nightmare; before he turned himself in a ghost, Mr. Ferro, the Red King, either Tessa or Rosanna, Cowl, Mavra and Elaine or someone currently on the White Council.

Someone or something corrupted Victor Sells and Kravos.  There is nothing to definitively prove they were Nemesis puppets but they still have to be considered possibilities.

Mr. Ferro received a gift at Bianca's party as did Lea.

Nicodemus told Harry that someone on Tessa's crew was taken.

Why do I include the Red King, Mavra, Cowl, Elaine and think someone on the White Council could be or have been a Nemesis puppet?  I think; I'm guessing, at least one individual from or close to every major faction has been taken.  It's good strategy.  Why go after one or two factions strong enough to oppose you when you can go after all of them?

Way back in the old forum I remember someone putting forth the idea that the Red King had been taken.  The evidence they claimed backed this idea up was part of the conversation between Harry and the Red King.  Something the Red King said about Arianna not being open to new possibilities.

Mavra?  We know the Black Court are tied up with Outsiders.  Harry guessed that in his last conversation with Lash.  But like the White Court of vampires, maybe the Black Court has a relationship with Outsiders, but Nemesis needed more than that.  Nemesis needed someone, something? on the inside to better control the Black Court.  Isn't it odd that Mavra was the weakest of the crew Drakul sent to Chicago, but she was smarter than the rest of Drakul's crew?

Cowl?  Why not.  It makes sense seeing as Cowl had been doing so many things to help Nemesis.

Elaine?  Jim has suggested she is not Kumori.  Someone had to infect Aurora.  That makes Elaine a candidate.

This makes nine candidates for a total of eight positions.  I think most of them are or were Outsiders puppets.  Aurora, Maeve and the Red King are dead and Lea is cured.  Victor Sells and Kravos are dead.  Justine has been neutralized.  It is possible that five Nemesis puppets are dead and two have or are on the way to becoming to being cured.  That would leave six left, at a minimum.