The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
[12M spoiler] From thirteen puppets you are now twelve?
Xamion:
IMO the Red King is (was?) absolutely an Outsider ally, but is not one of the 13 "nemfectors", same as Lord Raith.
Red Court vamps are with 99.9% certainty a similar "hybrid" and/or parasite state of "lesser" outsiders with mortals, like the White Court are, especially given the fact they've had much more blatant/obvious Outsider theming and influence throughout the series.
There's also one crucial fact to consider... do these 13 nemfectors have to permanently inhabit a single someone/something in the material world, or can they infect multiple beings, but can only actively control/observe through one of them at a time each?
I don't think this was ever actually clearly stated or clarified/mentioned in the stories nor WoJ.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: TrueMonk on January 24, 2026, 11:36:00 AM ---I do not think they are wholly outsiders though. They were the spawn of the outsider and a human, so they are something in between maybe?
Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on January 24, 2026, 09:33:43 PM --- That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.
--- End quote ---
So Lara says the Hungers die. Thomas's Hunger says they go into the void, which I took to be Outside.
Kurtin, I think once a host dies, Nemesis is free to infect another. I think Mab captured the one in Lea.
Mira:
I think Mab was talking about Nemesis, she was able to "kill" the one that was possessing Lea, that was puppet number 13.
She now says she will attempt the same cure on Justine, who apparently is also possessed by Nemesis, so that would be puppet number 12.
What is confusing is at the end of Battleground when Harry confronts Justine on the boat just as they get to Demonreach, it is an Outsider who apparently is possessing Justine. An Outsider who Harry confronts. Now is Nemesis just another name for Outsider soldiers or knights? Or was Nemesis possessing Justine along with the Outsider and really running the show? Or did the Outsider leave Justine and Nemesis take over when she fled? She is still possessed by Nemesis and that's puppet number 12 that Mab speaks about.
Bad Alias:
Nemesis is the Outsider He Who Walks Beside.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mira on February 04, 2026, 02:36:55 PM --- I think Mab was talking about Nemesis, she was able to "kill" the one that was possessing Lea, that was puppet number 13.
She now says she will attempt the same cure on Justine, who apparently is also possessed by Nemesis, so that would be puppet number 12.
What is confusing is at the end of Battleground when Harry confronts Justine on the boat just as they get to Demonreach, it is an Outsider who apparently is possessing Justine. An Outsider who Harry confronts. Now is Nemesis just another name for Outsider soldiers or knights? Or was Nemesis possessing Justine along with the Outsider and really running the show? Or did the Outsider leave Justine and Nemesis take over when she fled? She is still possessed by Nemesis and that's puppet number 12 that Mab speaks about.
--- End quote ---
This is just my impression Mira, but as Bad Alias says I think Nemesis is The Outsider. Whether it is the Optimist Prime of Outsiders; the first or original one of its kind, or just the current King or strongest of the Outsiders I doubt that it matters very much. Human kings and queens have very rarely made it to six decades in power and two decades was often a very good run for many of them. Even if Nemesis is only the current ruler of the Outsiders, its reign might already be measured in tens of thousands of years.
When I use the word King, that doesn't mean I think of Outsiders are organized in the same manner as human kingdoms. It could be that Nemesis is just so strong it can command other outsiders to do it's bidding for fear of what will happen to them if they don't obey.
I also don't know if the Walkers are distinctive individuals or simply different aspects of Nemesis. Nemesis called itself He Who Walks Beside. Maybe it is also HWWBf and HWWB but at different times or in different situations.
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