The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
[12M spoiler] From thirteen puppets you are now twelve?
TrueMonk:
I do not think they are wholly outsiders though. They were the spawn of the outsider and a human, so they are something in between maybe?
Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?
Mira:
--- Quote ---I don't think starborn confers utter immunity - Harry himself has had close calls with Outsider mental domination almost getting to him. It gives a mortal the capacity to resist, if their will is strong enough.
--- End quote ---
Or being a Starborn might mean different things or convey different powers depending on the Starborn. Maybe not all Starborn have power over Outsiders? Or maybe more plausible Starborn have the power to cooperate with Outsiders? I mean with the exception of Harry, the other two Listens and Drakul seem like they might be Outsider team players. I wonder for example if Lord Raith isn't a Starborn, and that's why he seems to have the protection he has? If I remember from Blood Rites Eb said he tried and couldn't kill Lord Raith, but in Twelve Months he gave a bit different explaination as to why he wasn't able to kill him. In Blood Rites Harry says he felt a "cold empty" something or other in Lord Raith, protecting him, have to go back and read it, but now since we know now that the Hunger is Outsider, that would make sense, that being Starborn, Lord Raith would have a bit more protection.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: TrueMonk on January 24, 2026, 11:36:00 AM ---Can you remember if it was clear if they died or was sent to the outside when the host dies?
--- End quote ---
That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.
Xamion:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on January 24, 2026, 09:33:43 PM --- That's the impression I got from 12 Months. I'll have to reread it soon.
--- End quote ---
Well, the preceding sentence from Mab is "Already has Mab vanquished thee once."
That (to me) implies that only Lea's "treatment" (which was apparently the first time Mab successfully applied it) ever resulted in "getting rid of the outsider," but it still does not clearly state whether it was completely destroyed, or just (permanently?) banished from the "material" universe.
Otherwise, I get the impression throughout the series that these 13 outsiders that got into the material universe are completely indestructible and "unremovable" by 99.999999999999999999999999% of methods.
KurtinStGeorge:
To consider the title of this thread, we should count who we know have been taken over by Nemesis and add names who could have been infested to hopefully get a better picture of who the 13 puppets are or were.
Aurora, Lea, Maeve, Cat Sith and Justine make five. Who else should we consider adding to the list? I think there are a fair number of people; and not people, to consider, even if we don't add all of them.
Victor Sells, Kravos the Nightmare; before he turned himself in a ghost, Mr. Ferro, the Red King, either Tessa or Rosanna, Cowl, Mavra and Elaine or someone currently on the White Council.
Someone or something corrupted Victor Sells and Kravos. There is nothing to definitively prove they were Nemesis puppets but they still have to be considered possibilities.
Mr. Ferro received a gift at Bianca's party as did Lea.
Nicodemus told Harry that someone on Tessa's crew was taken.
Why do I include the Red King, Mavra, Cowl, Elaine and think someone on the White Council could be or have been a Nemesis puppet? I think; I'm guessing, at least one individual from or close to every major faction has been taken. It's good strategy. Why go after one or two factions strong enough to oppose you when you can go after all of them?
Way back in the old forum I remember someone putting forth the idea that the Red King had been taken. The evidence they claimed backed this idea up was part of the conversation between Harry and the Red King. Something the Red King said about Arianna not being open to new possibilities.
Mavra? We know the Black Court are tied up with Outsiders. Harry guessed that in his last conversation with Lash. But like the White Court of vampires, maybe the Black Court has a relationship with Outsiders, but Nemesis needed more than that. Nemesis needed someone, something? on the inside to better control the Black Court. Isn't it odd that Mavra was the weakest of the crew Drakul sent to Chicago, but she was smarter than the rest of Drakul's crew?
Cowl? Why not. It makes sense seeing as Cowl had been doing so many things to help Nemesis.
Elaine? Jim has suggested she is not Kumori. Someone had to infect Aurora. That makes Elaine a candidate.
This makes nine candidates for a total of eight positions. I think most of them are or were Outsiders puppets. Aurora, Maeve and the Red King are dead and Lea is cured. Victor Sells and Kravos are dead. Justine has been neutralized. It is possible that five Nemesis puppets are dead and two have or are on the way to becoming to being cured. That would leave six left, at a minimum.
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