Author Topic: True Love's Protection  (Read 873 times)

Online g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2758
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2026, 12:35:09 AM »
... though after Harry was "killed" and Thomas was grieving, Justine comes home with a lesbian girlfriend, they have sex with paves the way for Thomas and her to have relations.  If it was that simple, why hadn't that been done after they realized they truly loved one another?  And why a lesbian?  Wouldn't a one night stand with some guy do? ...
We don't know Justine's "solution" was a lesbian... she could easily have been bi!  I strongly suspect House Raith selects their "Does" for a strongly-middle Kinsey-scale score.

I think Thomas was pretty clearly established as straight, so "some guy" wouldn't much appeal to Thomas (while the "two girls" fantasy is among the very-most-popular amongst straight guys).  Justine (and/or Nemesis) could just have been playing to that.

Seems to be the easiest/obvious explanation, tho:  Thomas being straight (known) and Justine being bi (surmised) makes the "FMF" solution work better than the "MFM" solution.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2309
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2026, 12:51:28 AM »
I can't say I flat out disagree with any of your specific points about deficits in recent books except maybe about Karrin's death. I didn't really like the idea of them being together. I didn't hate it. (If I was Jim, it would be Elaine, and she'd probably end up being Kumori or a Kumori fake out). I think Karrin had it mostly right in Proven Guilty except for thinking she would grow old with someone. I didn't think she should have counted on growing old when I read Proven Guilty. Point being, I don't think they were a good fit.

I'm not going to even suggest Karrin deserved to die, but I do think either that her character arc should have ended in death or a power up. It looks like we got both. I'm sure she's coming back. Almost certainly in the BAT.

On the Lara/Harry romance, Harry likes her and is attracted to her, but that seems to be about it so far. The only thing that's changed in 12 months is he has a tighter grip on her. Previously, he always ended up with the upper hand anyway. I do see how a genuine romance could develop from here, and I do actually like the idea.

Offline Dina

  • Has Collapsed Into a Singularity of Posts (a.k.a, "The Dina")
  • ***
  • Posts: 105875
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2026, 01:45:24 AM »
I think Justine had sex every time she needed to break the protection, but I do not think it was with the same person. So, it would be "Sex with Thomas, sex with a random person" in loop. And that random person could be a lesbian or a man, no matter to anything.

And what LaraBeck (by the way, I love the name "Lara") says about Harry's reaction to Murphy's death fits my feeling  :)
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Online g33k

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2758
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2026, 02:37:52 AM »
... I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.

I think Jim feels that Harry was so locked in his grief for the first part of the book, every good memory of Murph just slid immediately to the trauma.  I suspect strongly that Harry summoning Karrin's shade was part of what kept him locked there.

We did see him move on, though; like you, I look forward to seeing more of his good memories of her!

Offline Dina

  • Has Collapsed Into a Singularity of Posts (a.k.a, "The Dina")
  • ***
  • Posts: 105875
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2026, 06:12:02 AM »
That makes sense, actually.
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Online Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24927
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2026, 02:55:41 PM »
Quote
I will say this, too, that I found a bit hard to digest in this book: I don't have a problem with Harry grieving, I'll start with that, it was necessary, it is raw and it is painful. I wished we had seen a little less of "Karrin is dead and oh how much this hurts me" and more "Karrin is dead and that's unfair because Karrin was x, y and z" I mean, he tells us more times how wonderful Michael is in any of the books than he thinks about Murphy in this one, when it'd be the appropriate book to do it. There's a lot of things that you feel when you lose someone, yes, guilt, anger, denial, but also longing, and the memories of the best about them replay in your head making you miss them more, want them more. I felt there wasn't enough longing or enough memories. And I still can't believe we didn't learn when her birthday was in a full year of story.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:00:53 A

I think I can take a stab at that from my own experience sadly.  Harry is suffering from serious PTSD, bad enough that the whole city came down around his ears and lots of people died violently, that is bad enough, but the woman he loved was shot and died in his arms.  He has PTSD from that! That vision plays over and over in his head, he is trying to function, and he is sort of functioning, but the damnest things will trigger that horrible film clip in his head.  It will be a long time before he heals enough to where the event becomes an old film clip in his head that he can move past and go on to remember the good stuff. 
Quote
We don't know Justine's "solution" was a lesbian... she could easily have been bi!  I strongly suspect House Raith selects their "Does" for a strongly-middle Kinsey-scale score.

I think Thomas was pretty clearly established as straight, so "some guy" wouldn't much appeal to Thomas (while the "two girls" fantasy is among the very-most-popular amongst straight guys).  Justine (and/or Nemesis) could just have been playing to that.

Seems to be the easiest/obvious explanation, tho:  Thomas being straight (known) and Justine being bi (surmised) makes the "FMF" solution work better than the "MFM" solution.

How?  It shouldn't be any different, it just seemed weird.

Quote
I can't say I flat out disagree with any of your specific points about deficits in recent books except maybe about Karrin's death. I didn't really like the idea of them being together. I didn't hate it. (If I was Jim, it would be Elaine, and she'd probably end up being Kumori or a Kumori fake out). I think Karrin had it mostly right in Proven Guilty except for thinking she would grow old with someone. I didn't think she should have counted on growing old when I read Proven Guilty. Point being, I don't think they were a good fit.

I agree with you, I also thought at the time that Murphy had it right when she turned Harry down in Proven Guilty.  Good friends and loving each other as comrades in arms etc. was a good fit, but as lovers? No.  Yes, her growing old as Harry stayed young and hardy is a very good reason from her point of view.  Murphy always likes to be in the middle of any battle Harry was fighting.  Not so much when she is 80 and he is in his prime or still considered a young wizard. just her ego alone wouldn't have been able to handle that.  I don't think Harry saw that, but I think she knew that and was honest with him.   I am not sure if Jim was merely giving into pressure from Shippers or if he had something else in mind.  Actually I think he did, and at some point Harry is going to have another bubble burst and it will hurt.  There are hints in 12 Months that though Harry may have or thought he truly loved Murphy, she didn't truly love him.  She loved him, but not in the true love sense, that's why Harry isn't protected.  It's hinted at in 12 Months, the debate Harry has with his ID, his ID questions whether or not what he and Murphy had was true love.  In his fight with Mab, when Harry tells her that Murphy truly loved him, her answer was, "perhaps."  Then she covers that by saying she didn't  or doesn't have access to that part of Murphy's mind.  You believe that? I don't, and since she said, "perhaps," Mab wasn't lying either

Quote
I'm not going to even suggest Karrin deserved to die, but I do think either that her character arc should have ended in death or a power up. It looks like we got both. I'm sure she's coming back. Almost certainly in the BAT.

The thing is, it got to the point where she didn't do much for the story, in my opinion.  Once she was off the police force, I think Jim found it hard to find a good fit for her.  Actually when she does appear in the BAT, that's when I think she will burst Harry's bubble, that what she felt wasn't true love.  I think she will try and let him down gently, but it will still hurt a lot. 

Quote
On the Lara/Harry romance, Harry likes her and is attracted to her, but that seems to be about it so far. The only thing that's changed in 12 months is he has a tighter grip on her. Previously, he always ended up with the upper hand anyway. I do see how a genuine romance could develop from here, and I do actually like the idea.

The chemistry between the two of them has always been good.  There has always been a degree of mutual respect between them, Lara doesn't lecture Harry.  I think that's what really got old with Murphy for my part.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2026, 08:05:11 PM by Mira »

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2309
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2026, 08:21:10 PM »
Jim was planning on Murphy dying since book 11 or so. He didn't seem sure which book.

Online Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24927
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2026, 09:55:44 PM »
Jim was planning on Murphy dying since book 11 or so. He didn't seem sure which book.

That makes sense.

Offline Torsten

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 09:58:10 PM »
I've been wondering if all of his self loathing makes a difference here. He doesn't think he deserves anything good, let alone love. Maybe that makes a difference.

Offline Bad Alias

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2309
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 11:15:36 PM »
I'd say it definitely makes a difference, but a lot of things make a difference.
This is from late in 12 Months:
(click to show/hide)

Offline earthexile313

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #40 on: Today at 01:23:25 AM »
I've been assuming for awhile that the instance where Harry burned Lara at the end of White Night was a reveal hidden in plain sight. Lara finds it strange and unbelievable that Harry still bears the protection of Susan's love from years ago... but it wasn't from her at all. It was from only moments before.

Because we now know that Harry and Lash 'conceived' Bonea in a moment of love and connection that gave rise to new life. Harry has love for Susan, but the being he went home and wept for that night was Lash. And she let herself be destroyed for the love of him, saving him from Lasciel's damnation. That interaction was what shielded Harry from the Hunger that night.

This new idea about Harry's self-loathing interfering with the protection just seems to make that fit better, to me.

Offline LaraBeck

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 97
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #41 on: Today at 12:50:07 PM »
I've been wondering if all of his self loathing makes a difference here. He doesn't think he deserves anything good, let alone love. Maybe that makes a difference.

That's what Mab's explanation was about.

Online Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24927
    • View Profile
Re: True Love's Protection
« Reply #42 on: Today at 02:03:09 PM »
Quote
This new idea about Harry's self-loathing interfering with the protection just seems to make that fit better, to me.

Yeah, but... That's why there has been problems with the concept from the start!  How do you define true love?  Harry may feel self loathing at the moment, he is grieving, he feels guilt about all the people that died under his banner that allowed him to fight.  He feels guilty because he wasn't able to keep Murphy physically out of the fight, though it was Mab's banner that made it possible, and ultimately Murphy's choice.. Having said that, what does that have to do with true love? Harry still believes he truly loved Murphy, and whether he thinks he deserves it or not, how does that change Murphy's supposed true love for him?  I say it doesn't, true love isn't a logical emotion, often it defies logic!

So no, I don't think Harry's current feelings of guilt and self-loathing over what has recently happened to him and his actions have anything to do with him not being protected.  In my opinion it was Mab's answer when Harry told her that Murphy truly loved him.. She said, "perhaps."  Lots of wiggle room in that answer without Mab having to lie about it.  If she said that Murphy did, then she would have to explain why Harry wasn't protected.  If she said that Murphy didn't truly love him then she'd make matters worse as far as her knight goes.  She says she didn't have access to that part of Murphy's mind, but that could be avoidance on her part as well.  Mab is good at that, it serves her purpose without having to lie. 

I also think this is the set up for Mirror Mirror, Harry states at one point in 12 Months that he wishes he could go back and redo the part where Murphy get's shot.  I think this is his motive for going back, and that's when he is going to learn that what Murphy felt for him was love, but not true love.